I own a T. Kilby shotgun with T. Kilby on the barrel and action. Thomas Kilby was a reknown barrel maker from Birmingham, England. This shotgun has Birmingham England proof marks and was manufactured circa 1898.It has very intrigate engraving and wood carvings. It has been suggested that T. Kilby only made the barrel and action with the engraving and carvings done in either in Germany or France. Wm. Donn chicago, Illinois in engraved on the rib. It is my understanding the Donn Brothers William and James were custom gun makers from Illinois. They may have been the order taker for this custom fit shotgun with Kilby and others being subs.I am looking for information about this firm. Can anyone help me out? I would post photos if I knew how to do it.
John Grimm
English Best 3 Iron 'Turkish'
James Donn was active from 1859-1900. He died in 1911. He is listed as active in Canton, IL 1859-1886, Peoria 1886-1893. James Donn & brother 1878-1886 and Peoria Model works 1890-1893.
I am sure some one will have more info...
Pete
Just from the 2 pics the embellishment looks a little more French than German. Does it have a full set of Birmingham marks or was it purchased "in the white" from T. Kilby?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
As an aside the 1889 Lefver Arms Co catalog lists bbl choice for the "Optimus" grade as Whitworth Fluid Steel or Kilby. By 1892 the reading had been changed to "Highest Grade Hard English Damascus". This may well have included Kilby, but did not limit it to that maker.
Interesting Miller. Here's a Lefever AA with "Finest A-1 Quality Silver Steel Damascus Highest Proof" with very similar English Best Three Iron. I'm thinking the marketing guys came up with that one
A Donn that was or is owned by a member of this forum.
I don't care who made it that's one very fine gun. Congrats.
I added pictures of my Two bbl set Kilby to my earlier post for you to look at. Drew, are those laminated or something else?
Laminated steel Leighton, but they do look a bit like Greener's "Silver Steel"
Another shot of your barrels
Yes it has proof marks. The Birmingham provisional proof mark(crown over BP)1855-1904, the Birmingham View3 Mark(crossed swords with crown in top angle and V in bottom angle1813-1904, the Brimingham definitvve proof mark(crossed swords wiith BPC in the left bootom1813-1904 and 12 over C in the diamond chamber size mark 1887-1954 for 2 1/2 inch chamber. The gun has no nitro proof marks and vever proved for nitro powders, and a 13/1 bore for internal barrel dimension .719-.729 normal 12 guage.
GUNMAKERS OF ILLINOIS by Johnson Vol 1 Page 156:
DONN, WILLIAM Canton,Fulton Co before 1870-1900 Pioria Pioria Co
before & After 1886-1888
A brother of noted Canton gunmaker James Donn, William is listed
as a gunsmith in the 1870 census. He was 24 years old, born in Illinois and was at that time employd by his brother James. In
1873 James and William becames partners, a business relationship
that..ended in 1900. During that time William was primarily
involved with merchandising. At the time of his brother's death
in 1911 William was a resident of Chicao.
Have a E Thomas Jr With T Kilby Barrells-No Proofs on action flats.
Bill McPhail
-Thomas used diferent makers for his Barrells
John,
Could we see a closeup of the buttstock carving?
Michael, not knowing how to post a photo I will take a photo and email to you.
John
Here's a George T. Abbey, Chicago with Kilby Laminated Steel barrels on the Vintage Doubles site
http://www.vintagedoubles.com/inventory.php?sort=1&process=fullview&gunID=187
John,
Thanks for the pictures, I’m looking for a pre-WWI woodcarver from the Chicago area and now I see it’s not Donn. Nice work and a great custom gun.
I think this thread will get a lot more interesting but I need to backup and start over a bit. John, if would not mind would you edit the original title to say Kilby-Donn-Daly. I've made a couple of calls and trying to locate some people who might help on this but the title might not attract the folks we need.
To make this easier to understand I would like to talk about three guns.
1. The one this original post is about a Kilby-Donn.
2. A Daly-Donn
3. A Kilby-?
One of the past owners of gun No. 2 the Daly-Donn should be along to tell us about it.
Michael, I own the J. Donn & Bros. that you have pictured in this thread.
tim
Michael, I own the J. Donn & Bros. that you have pictured in this thread. tim
Great! Can you share some info with us such as, is this a Daly with Kilby barrels? Who do you believe did what work on your gun?
I had to log in so I don't know if this link will work. Is the owner of this gun here? Timothy S how does this compare with your gun?
http://www.jamesdjulia.com/auctions/catalog_detail_shots.asp?Details=30220&sale=209SCARCE HIGH GRADE THOMAS KILBY DAMASCUS DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUN. Cal. 12 ga. SN 1062. Fine English made double with 29” fine Damascus bbls choked IMP-MOD/IMP-CYL with tapered, concave matted rib, sgl bead, crossbolt rib extension, dbl underbites, ejectors & dbl triggers. Maker’s name is on rib. Mounted with highly figured English walnut with full checkered & leaf-carved splinter forearm with Prince of Wales stock, 14-1/4” over a carved & serrated horn buttplate. Stock has deep foliate-carved teardrop side panels and extensively carved foliate & floral wrist with stippled background. Bottom of grip has a black oval insert and there is a blank silver initial oval on bottom of stock. Receiver is elaborately engraved with the vignette of a bird dog on point with two pheasants on left side, a setter with two ducks on right side, a flying crane on bottom and a running doe deer on trigger bow, all surrounded by full coverage, very fine, foliate arabesque patterns with fine borders and a sunburst around hinge pin and the maker’s name is on each side. Appended metal is all engraved to match. Fences have side clips and it has, over the entire top of receiver, very deep relief, floral & arabesque engraving. Top tang has “SAFE” in gold. Accompanied by a pair of 28 ga. Briley sub-caliber tubes with screw chokes, having a total of four chokes. Also accompanying is the Briley hammer & removal plug. Additionally accompanying is a green felt-lined, leather case. Bore diameter: left - .725, right - .726. Bore restrictions: left - .025, right - .004. Wall thickness: left - .022, right - .024. Drop at heel: 2-5/8”, drop at comb: 1-9/16”. Weight with tubes: 7 lbs. 3.84 oz., weight without tubes: 6 lbs. 5.12 oz.. CONDITION: Bbls retain most of their orig strong Damascus pattern, slightly thinned over forearm area. Receiver retains 60-70% orig case colors, strong & bright in sheltered areas, fading to silver elsewhere. Triggerguard is silvered case colors. Wood is sound with minor handling & storage nicks and retains about all of a fine professional restoration. Mechanics are fine, bright shiny bores with light pitting just in front of chambers, may have been honed. Case shows light to moderate wear with some light water staining on one end. Interior is slightly moth eaten. 4-30220 JR64 (5,000-7,000)
Well, it looks like a Lindner Daly, BUT it does not have the usual Lindner marks. The SN is #941. It does have the Kilby Damascus Barrels and a carved gutta percha butt plate. The forearm is not the usual Charles Daly or Lindner forearm, it is a shorter 6.5 inch set-up with a Purdy type push button release. Really quite an interesting gun. And if I could, I'd post a couple of more pictures.
tim
Michael, the engraving is identical, definatly from the same hand. Mine is definatly a Lindner boxlock though.
My hope is that the owner of the gun that was sold at Julia can confirm what is written on the rib, I suspect Donn but at this time, who knows. All three guns have the same bird and engraving on the bottom of the action. All three guns are consistent with engraving found on Daly guns. Later today I can post more pictures of the Daly-Donn that I got from a former owner.
I would be happy to edit and modify the title if I knew how. I can't find an edit button. Help from a dummy!
John
I would be happy to edit and modify the title if I knew how. I can't find an edit button. Help from a dummy!
John
John, The "Edit" button will be at the bottom of your original post.
This is Gun No. 1, I hope, I have pictures of three hammerless guns in the Donn file and having trouble telling which one is which.
Gun No 2,
Gun No. 3
John,
Thanks for changing the title, hopefully we can attract the attention of other Donn owners. Very interesting subject and there is sure a lot we don’t know about the hammerless Donns. Interesting that the Daly has Kilby barrels, I remember looking at a Donn hammergun that was a snap action that had “HAL” barrels.
Years ago I had two Margaret Kirkwood (M. Kirkwood) Hammerguns made in England with her name on them and they had the same buttplate as the one in the picture.
Some trivia. The Donn brothers were sons of William Sr. a carriage maker from Scotland who settled in Canton, IL. about 30 miles from Peoria. William Jr married Belle Thompson in 1878. By the age of 20 James was working as a gunsmith. In 1910 they both are living in Chicago. James was in walking distance of the major gun retailers in Chicago.
I found a reference on the web that I can not confirm, ie James Donn had a gun displayed at the 1893 Chicago Exposition.
Pete
First Gun: James Donn Pioria-1886-88."Boston Damascus" on bbls-
blued over."W K" on action flats probably for Walter Kinnser
Scotish Gunsmith employed by Donn. Gun pictured page 159 in
Illinois Gunsmith book-can send copies of Donn write-up. E-Mail
Phone or FAX # to mcphailcherokee@aol.com
Gun 2 . E Thomas Jr 12 Ga. T Kilby on underside of bbles-Thomas
obtained guns from different sources-Most seen Francotte
Thanks Michael for posting
Bill McPhail
Michael and Tim S....as one of the former owners of the J. Donn Linder gun I am convinced that this gun had a high degree of work done at the Lindner shop in Suhl. The reason for this is that the Serial number on the gun is a Lindner S/N (941) and the Lindner bbl numbers (as I recall) are some 200 more than the 941 s/n. Engraving style and features (ie ejector eyes) are all Lindner style and quality. While the bbls do not have the usual "HAL" with crossed pistols etc... this could be explained by J. Donn ordering the piece from Lindner in an incomplete state...ie a bbld action to be stocked and finished by J. Donn. Additionally I trly doubt the J. Donn produced in excess of 941 pieces with his name on them. If this was the case than Mr. Donn and his guns would be justifably famous for their quality. (As it is I only know of a few Donn pieces) Lastly it is documented that there were other makers tht were utilizing the Linder boxlock action for their products...I think Ken Georgi can shed some light on this point. Guten abend Jeff S.
I'm late jumping in on this thread. As others have stated, several other American makers were using Lindner-sourced boxlocks as the basis for their guns. It some cases, like the first Donn gun Jeff used to own, there are no Lindner-marks on the gun though the details of the gun all shout Lindner. As Jeff points out the numbering sequence of the barrel numbers (as well as the gun's serial number in many cases) is consistent across multiple makers/retailers using Lindner-sourced guns. I am away from my reference materials but I can provide several examples that would link the serial numbers amognst these guns. But to why some guns have the Lindner marks and others don't? I'm not sure. I have some thoughts but I will leave that to another thread.
The German/Prussian connection appears to have been a very strong one as I noticed a curious similarity in the last names of many of the makers/retailers who sold Lindner-marked guns - Schaefer, Schmidt, Jakob, Daly, etc., etc. I do want to add while in most cases it appears that Lindner did nearly all the work and the retailer just put his name on the gun (i.e., Charles Daly), in several other cases (e.g., Donn, Schaefer, etc.), Lindner appears to have merely provided the guns in the white and the guns were stocked and finished here in the States. A close examiniation of these guns reveals real gun maker work that goes well beyond merely stamping one's name on the rib. Often the level of workmanship is just stunning.
I knew I should have bought that Donn when I had the chance :-).
Ken
Daly 1680
Michael...Linder 1680 and Donn 941 appears to have been engraved by the same hand. Ok I will say that it WAS engraved by the same hand. The game scenes are the SAME and I don't mean just sort of! Interesting to me that the ribs on the two guns noted above appear to have been checkered ala Bill Wise Matsuka (sp) gun...and that both guns (941 & 1680) have German features (Greener cross bolt & side clips)Features not generally seen on English boxlocks. Could it be that Kilby was having actions sourced in Germany for a period of time and he just the German makers HIS (Kilby) bbls to be fitted to the actions? I think that this may have been the case. It would be interesting to find out more about Kilby and his method of operation. As it s, it appears that Kilby was a custom maker for a descriminating clientle. Guten Tag. Jeff S.
Jeff, from now on we will refer to this engraving as "Duck Butt" which I thought was a bit unusual. Now everyone can check their Dalys for DB and we can see the range (years) that this shows up.
This is a all interesting and goes to show us how much we don't know. I hope John, the person who ask the original question, is not too confused by all this.
Mike, that's a good find. Duck Butt, well I don't know. Also don't know about , what looks like an English Setter, hunting ducks. Hmmmmmm do they do that ?
Daryl, I just don't remember ever seeing a feeding duck depicted in engraving. I'll have to expand my horizons ;-).
Mike, I think that the Duck Butt is proof that many guns were engraved by committee. The guy who was only good enough to do the butts, probably was hoping to do some rocks and grass in the near future. I think a thread on odd engraving subjects might be very interesting.
Michael and all, of course I am becoming confused but also happy about the information. After all the dust settles maybe Michael or some else might explain to this novice about Linder, Daly and others and summerize to the best of your knowledge what you think the origin of my T, Kilby is, a Donn, a Daly or a Linder.
I am delighted to find such a knowledge base.
Thanks to all,
John Grimm
John,
I don’t know what or how much work William Donn was doing by the time he moved to Chicago. I believe that Thomas Kilby supplied the barreled action, in the white which was then sent to Germany (Prussia) where the action was refined and then engraved by someone who also did the Lindners that we know today as “Prussia Charles Dalys”. H.A. Linder was a maker in Suhl, Germany who made gun for SD&G under the name Charles Daly. I have no idea at this time who stocked it, did the carving or the final case hardening and blueing. We need to find a lot more hammerless guns with the Donn name on them before we can get a better idea of who did what.
I doubt if any of the small makers in Suhl had in-house engravers and I suspect that many were outsourced. In my experience with engravers I find that they tend to do the same pattern over and over. Now that more people are aware more stuff might come to light.
More Pictures of John's gun.
Maybe I should have added the Jakob,
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11653 . The Chr. Friedrich Triebel sidelock currently as a thread, not the Jakob, has Pointers that look like they are from South Alabama or South Georgia and there are English Setters on the opposing side. And the fowl may resemble ducks.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Pointers and setters pointing flying ducks over a body of water, sometimes on a sand beach on the ocean, is normally a Japanese thing.
Frederick J. Abbey, younger brother of George Thackeray Abbey(died August 10th 1872)??, & J.H. Foster formed Abbey & Foster of Chicago and were a source for Charles Daly in the early days.
Now Frederick J. Abbey seems to have sourced W.C. Scott & Son and most of those doubles utilized the thumb-hole lever. It is possible that Abbey imported components thru his older brother George Thackeray Abbey, who, if I have my facts correct, arrived in the U.S. of A. in the mid 1840s and could have easily been associated with the Kilby klan. "Gunmakers of Illinois" by Curtis L. Johnson may provide some insight on Abbey & Foster. But F.J. Abbey expired on September 22nd, 1878 and it is very curious that about this same time Daly turned to Lindner. And it is about this time that the Abbey lockup appears on Lindner's examples, as found under U.S. of A. patent #114081:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=blBjAAA...p;q&f=falseGeorge Thackeray Abbey is noted as working up until 1874 or later but that isn’t the case. Court documents show that a George T. Abbey of the Chicago area died on August 10th, 1872 and left monies for his 3 sisters Harriet Abbey, Mary Ann Welch and Jeannette Carpenter. Excluding donations to hospitals and the like George T. Abbey left about everything to his son William Abbey, with the exception of his 12 bore double which was supposed to got to an un-named friend. Then William Abbey expired August 11th, 1879, with a possibility of everything reverting back to his mother Julia M. Abbey, wife of George T. Abbey, who expired on January 23rd, 1886. So one of the sisters, along with other brother heirs, felt compelled to try their hand at an acquisition and I guess it to have been Jeannette Carpenter. Odd that George T. Abbey didn’t list any brothers(but court documents noted he had brothers) in his will and I wonder if they all made the boat ride over or some were born here. Some sources suggest that George T. Abbey was the son of Frederick J. Abbey, but for now I think they were either brothers or close relatives. Apparently there are business cards as well as game tally cards of George T. Abbey in existence and he is also noted as a maker of target arms and scopes. If indeed he did make scopes I’d guess them to have been very early versions. George T. Abbey was an importer and very possibly there was an established link between Abbey & Kilby.
I’ve been chasing this rabbit, or on this tangent, as it is possible that James Donn, etal., were either sourcing the boys Abbey or were using their lines of sourcing for components or longarms in the white. But James Don & Associates from 1859 - 1867 had sales of all his wares, I think, he netted $600 per year and then post 1867 when his brother joined him net was $50k U.S. of A. Something is odd surrounding gunmaking, total number of existing examples and cost, but I assume hardware was a large part and was the main contributor to the purported $50k per year.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey
Are you going to the Southern? If so come by my house-I'm
right on the way. Will explain with examples my interpetations of the Illinois
Gunmakers-Have Donn -Kilby and Thomas Kilby guns
reguards
Bill
Dr. McPhail:
That was my intent to have you do a show and tell as well as see a dog and pony show. But, unfortunately I'm left to mind the farm including a new litter of shorthairs. I'm still going to stop by and see the examples before Forrest(?) sells them all!!!
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey
You are welcome anytime- looking fotword to your visit
Reguards
Bill
I own a circa 1898 Thomas Kilby with Wm Donn engraved between the barrels. I am very interested in what you know about Kilby and the Donn brothers. It is my understanding that Kilby made damascus barrels and blank recievers. He in turn sent the gun to Germany or some other country for the engraving of the blank and the wood. My gun is beautiful and well preserved. I would love to send you are any interested parties photos of this shotgun.
John Grimm
jbgrimm@comcast.net
I know I am e late to the discussion but I am doing a series of articles on English guns beginning the history of the rising bite or the vertical bolt as it is called in the trade from Abbey, Rigby and Bissell, Beesley, Boss, up to the present day. I am beginning with GT Abbey his patents and his move to Birmingham.
Any and all hi- rez (300 dpi jpg, RAW, tiff, pdf) pictures, ads, accounts of Kilby, Abbey, early Lindner or Daly, Donn etc guns would be appreciated. I will give you credit as you wish.
(With all due respect, it is doubtful that G.T Abbey whilst living in Birmingham working with Kilby sent the guns to Germany to have them finished for the Chicago retailers. There were plenty of out workers in Birmingham who could provide any kind of engraving or stock carving one could imagine. One need only look at some of the W&C Scott catalogues of the period to see examples of such intricate engraving and carving. Kilby was not just a barrel maker but supplied an entire gun, for example, using the GT Abbey patent and the name on the rib. However, it might be that guns with elaborate stock carving might have been finished by the US-based gunmaker.)
Niemann
Niemann:
I'll give you a shot across your bow in that if you can prove in postulate form that the Donn-eske offerings peddled by the Chicago contingent were made by Birmingham mechanics, please do so. Otherwise we'll let the marks speak for themselves. Kilby didn't send them but Daly did. Daly couldn't obtain the wares he wanted from the Birmingham mechanics of the little British Isles so he sourced gestecks & sent them to the most talented mechanics in Suhl
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Dear Raimey,
Thank you for your info about Daly. Do you think there was a sourcing transition period from E. Thomas "building" the 1871 patent Abbey and Foster guns to Donn and Daly?
My interest at this point is narrowed to the original G. T. Abbey Patents in the US and the UK, and the guns that were made by those such as Kilby in Birmingham for Abbey's retail store in Chicago.
It is curious that G.T. Abbey moved to Birmingham, England in 1869 and then returned to the USA to die in 1872. Was it possible he died whilst abroad?
Best regards,
Niemann
I am the current caretaker of G.T. Abbey #46. A 10 bore, 32 inch Laminated Steel Kilby barrels. Marked 11 ga. Black powder Birmingham proofs. Thumb lever opener. Highly finished metal and wood. Engraved very similar to Daryl's. Can be viewed on Kirby's site as posted in an earlier reply. I acquired a W. W. Greener light 2&7/8 10 and began looking for another and this one fits the bill. Good shooting dimensions and it's two outings on clays have been very nice. I am using RST 1&1/8 oz. loads and a handload using Cheddite primed hulls or Federal hulls with Winchester primers. 19 grains of Red Dot, Remington SP10 wad with a 1/2 inch fiber 16 ga. filler in the shot cup. Closed with a 6 point crimp. Great shooting load and just hammers the clays at all ranges up to 50+ yards. I have shot the Greener with 1&1/8 oz 4&1/4 dram and 1&1/4 with 4 dram black powder loads and it works really well. I liken these to the heavy 12 ga. guns and loads that replaced them in the early 20th century. I favor the light 10 ga. hammer guns of an earlier period. Any further speculation as to Kilby built guns or other Birmingham supplier? (W&C Scott?)
Eric, interesting. Notice the difference in the rising bite design between #46 and #47.
Yes, that is interesting! On #46, the bite does not pierce the extension. Wonder why the change between these two guns? Gun makers whimsy or deliberate design improvement? Does your gun have firing pin springs? I have a Boss 16 ga. hammer gun with the Purdey 2'nd patent thumb lever and really like this kind of opener...just nifty neat design. Hope you enjoy using your Abbey as much as I'm enjoying mine. Weather permitting, I'll have #46 out for clays again tomorrow.
"Eric 375," I am the current temporal owner of the only example of a Wm. Donn-marked gun (William was the younger brother of the better known James, of "Jas. Donn & Bros.," and the elder brother of John, all gunmakers and partners of the Canton, Illinois, hardware business with the gunmaking enterprise at the back of the building, which was sold by James in 1899), formerly owned by Mr. Grimm, the original subject gun of this thread, which is built on a highly refined, marvelously engraved and scalloped W & C Scott body action that evinces standard (no nitro proofs, and is thus pre-1896) Birmingham proof marks of the era (as do the barrel flats), and incorporates their 1892 patented rectangular cross-bolt or "Improved Bolt System." The two sides of its action body are marked immediately below and parallel to the edge of the water-table, "T. Kilby," as are the undersides of the barrels just beyond the barrel flats. I suspect this was the personal gun of William Donn and / or is the exhibition gun said to have been shown at Chicago during the 1893 World's Columbian Exhibition (Should anyone have additional information on another Wm. Donn gun, the history of Wm. Donn, or that addressing the 1893 exhibition gun, identity, and / or its whereabouts, I would be very appreciative.).
The serial number of the Kilby / Wm. Donn gun is "1220," well within the serial number range of guns produced / finished by Heinrich August ("H. A.") Lindner during his and his father's decades long association with Schoverling, Daly & Gales. Mr. Kilby's barrel-maker number, which is also stamped on the underside of the barrels, is "20589." I have attempted to relate his barrel-maker's numbers to build years without success. If anyone has such information or perhaps cataloged the same, it would undoubtedly help establish use and build dates of the guns affixed with T. Kilby barrels. However, one should not confuse this particular "T. Kilby" with the earlier, elder barrel-maker of the same name. The barrel-maker discussed here was a distant relative who happened, by one of those strange flukes of history, to have the same name; and to add more confusion, our second Kilby apprenticed with the original and then later, in the early 1880's, took over the barrel-making business.
Beginning around 1890 or so, the second Thomas Kilby was not only producing high-quality barrels, but had begun coupling his fine barrels with action bodies bought in the trade, and the firm subsequently built / finished entire guns, whether wholly finished or sold to the trade in the white. I suspect this is how the Wm. Donn gun came to be finished and serial-numbered by Lindner, as it unquestionably was, given all the elements of a Lindner-finished gun, or those of his near proprietary outworker-produced guns, it clearly possesses. Certainly the Kilby gun was not finished in the U.S.; there was too little capability to produce or finish a gun to this standard at the time to answer the need, in my opinion.
From my research, which is based on available literature, I can say that "T. Kilby" barrels, some of which are stamped such in block letters or in cursive script (probably in script for Eastern European market tastes), were highly valued and esteemed by a plethora of European, Eastern European, and Russian gunmakers and their knowledgeable gun owners. Depending on when your gun was made, the barrels are by the elder or later Kilby.
G. T. Abbey (circa 1858-1874) was a Chicago maker of deserved renown. And he, like a number of early American gunmakers, had an association with Georg and / or H. A. Lindner, whether separate from or as a result of their business relationship with Schoverling, Daly & Gales, and some of their respective productions are affixed with Kilby barrels, which were equally esteemed in the United States, as would be the firm's barreled actions later available in the nineteenth century. I have seen several America makers' guns employing Prussian and English actions with Kilby barrels, or equally affixed with Lindner's trademark stamps. These American makers included James Donn & Bros, which also employed Prussian-made and U.K.-produced action bodies (many from Westley Richards and W & C Scott) for their guns.
Owning several 10-bore hammer and hammerless guns myself, I have formed a high regard for their versatility and use afield, whether with 2-5/8 or 2-7/8 chambers, and tend to employ RST's cartridges for my shooting purposes, as I do little reloading at this time. These antique 10-bores are nonpareil pheasant guns, in my opinion. All of them have damascus barrels, which I prefer.
Should you have the opportunity, and not already done so, please publish here photographs of your guns, together with photographs of any markings or stamps. There are many Lindner / German / Prussian gun enthusiasts perusing this site, as well as U.K. and European gun authorities, who presumably could answer even more of your questions given that basic information.
Happy New Year, everyone!
Regards,
Edwardian
Eric, as I recall there are no firing pin springs.
Edwardian, I have a 10 bore hammer gun, #2051, thumb opener, Deeley and Edge forend latch, Lindner crown/pistol stamp, marked James Donn and Bros, Canton. Very British looking, but no British stamps.
"Daryl," your 10-bore seems based on the Purdey British patent of the 1860's. I believe F. J. Abbey and Company of Chicago may have assembled hammerguns guns like you describe from components by W & C Scott and labeled them "Charles Daly," as was otherwise done for some of the Lefever patented side-lever productions; or they could have sold these assembled or as separate parts in the white, and perhaps private-labeled the barreled actions for firms such as James Donn & Bros, and others. But so far, I cannot find a photograph or text online, in order to demonstrate or validate the point. I will keep looking.
It has been well established, I believe, in previous posts associated with other threads on this site that Lindner-sourced actions and / or barrels were imported into the U.S. and used as the basis for guns and rifle and gun combinations by American retailers and / or makers. The consensus seems to be that Schoverling, Daly & Gales facilitated this trade as the importer and distributor. There are examples from which to choose to illustrate this point.
Likewise, there exist examples of "Jas. Donn & Bros." guns that employ Prussian and U.K. actions and / or barrel sets. But separate from Jas. Donn & Bros. productions, I hope to ascertain whether another "Wm. Donn" marked gun exists, which I doubt. If another does exist, I would certainly want to see it, and also discover what I can about the one that does exist.
Again, Happy New Year, and all the best in the coming year.
Regards,
Edwardian
Edwardian, I do not have a smart phone or a camera suitable to take pictures. (Every time I think about getting one I see a real nice gun) Photo of the barrel flats is still up on Kirby Hoyt's Vintage Doubles site and can be viewed there. Proof and view marks are the same as those exhibited on Daryl's Abbey shown above. #46 is a 10 ga. chamber with 11 ga. barrels. No other name on the gun but George T. Abbey and Kilby marked barrels. Do you think these two are W&C Scott sourced?
"Eric 375," because of the presence of Birmingham proofs, the guns could have been sourced from either W & C Scott or Isaac Hollis & Son. Like Scott, Hollis was another known source for hammer-gun actions and barreled actions prior to Georg Lindner's earliest involvement with the importer, Schoverling, Daly & Gales.
But because Schoverling, Daly & Gales almost exclusively sourced W & C Scott in the 1860's and early 1870's for its Charles Daly hammer-guns prior to its contact and subsequent sourcing agreement with Prussian master gunmaker Georg Lindner, which was prior to son Heinrich's succession to the business later in the decade, and because not much in terms of the importation of firearms from overseas occurred without this major New York importer's / retailer's / wholesaler's involvement for much of the last quarter of the nineteenth century, my opinion is that the subject hammer-guns were sourced from W & C Scott, or at least their components.
Given the end user's skills, such as those demonstrably possessed by Abbey, Schafer or Donn for example, proprietary or inventive alternations could be made once imported constituents parts were acquired and ready for assembly, if not already fully assembled or even completely finished and ready to retail when arrived. Alterations could include the addition of side-levers or thumb releases on the Purdey-patented pattern.
Regards,
Edwardian
"Daryl" & "Eric 375," I believe the origin of your guns' "rising bite," which seems a sort of early bifurcated bolting system, as well as the mentioned Purdey-type push-forward, thumb-operated single under-bolt and 'rising-bite' release, is shown below in the ingenious F. J. Abbey (gunmaker, Chicago, Ill.) & J. H. Foster patent of 1871:
This U.S. patent was granted during the era both the subject guns were built. It also demonstrates that not all the inventiveness in the realm of firearms was concentrated overseas, but did also occur in the United States. This is a mechanical alteration that could have been performed by skilled gunmakers or gunsmiths in the U.S. to sourced action bodies (Abbey, Donn, Schafer, etc.), such as, say, the
W & C Scott or
Isaac Hollis hammer-gun actions sourced from Birmingham, England.
The basic economic reason that even major alterations were often performed during the nineteenth century (and in to the 20th), especially those altering a gun from one ignition system to another, where one system had come successively in to general use and rapidly replaced the former system, was that even highly skilled labor was far less expensive to employ than the cost of materials. For example, if you had an action body suitable for the dated pinfire cartridge and now wanted the latest standard cartridge-firing gun instead, rather than buying a new and expensive gun built especially for the new standard cartridge, the sportsman would likely have opted to have the pinfire gun altered to use the new system. And even though the alteration would have required a lot of skilled labor time to accomplish, it was still less expensive than the materials and work on which the effort was expended. This same logic would have applied when considering upgrading or altering a costly imported action body, as would have occurred in the instant case.
Regards,
Edwardian
Daryl, the pins on my Abbey were a bit sticky and hard to retract. Upon removal the left one had a coil or two remaining of retracting springs. After clean up and a bit of a polish, I installed new springs and now they work nicely. The pins have a shoulder to retain the springs and were it not for cleaning I would not have noticed the remains of the retracting springs. The action flat shows patent 654 and I see that yours is marked patent 657. Wonder if they apply to the rising bite? Edwardian, is the patent shown a scissors acting type of a 3'rd bite on the barrel extension? I can see how it would work from then patent drawing. Really great just how much information is available from members on this and other sites. Without this available, they would just be another old gun in someone's collection. I really like collecting and using these wonderful firearms and the study of the different designs and patents is fascinating. So much experimentation going on in these early decades. Looks like by the late 1890's maker's pretty much settled on the designs they would use for "the modern gun" that is still being made today. Oh! The Abbey 10 bore shot nicely on the clays course today!!
Eric and Edwardian, there are a couple of things to clear up in our discussion of Abbey. The American patent for the so called rising bite is the G. T. Abbey patent 87814 of March 18, 1869. That is the patent used in G. T. Abbey #47 , and I would guess the number 657 could be a patent use number, and I would guess that it is not a use number for the patent 87814. Maybe a use number for the thumb opener, maybe not. I just think when # 46 and #47 were made, that 657 was a high use number for Patent 87814. Either way, the rising bite 87814 is about ten years ahead of the Rigby-Bissel patent 1141 of 1879 for the British rising bite patent.
Eric, I checked the firing pins on #47 and they have no springs, but they should have springs. It's just that they are missing in my gun. #47 has non rebounding locks, and a pinned forend, so must have been made in the first half of the 1870s.
I have seen guns with the closure lock of the patent 114,081, but I think not on these two guns. I have taken #47 apart and the mechanism is like Patent 87,814.
I am not sure how much the Rigby-Bissel patent relates to the G. T. Abbey patent, but I have owned a F. Beesley over under [not a shotover] that had the Rigby-Bissel locking. It looked very much, from the exterior, like the locking on #47.
By the way, Eric, what does it say on the rib extension of number 46 ?
"Eric 375," Yes, I think the scissors-like mechanism shown in the Abbey patent drawing that appears to operate the bifurcated round bolts that pass through the hole in the rib extension from either side, when combined with the single-bite depicted, do together act as a second-bite mechanically. This is an American-patented form of an early rib extension cross-bolting system. Indeed, it may have influenced other makers with whom the Abbey firm was involved, whether foreign or domestic.
Below is a photograph of a (one of six known)
Charles Daly 200 Grade, Diamond Quality (no black powder or nitro proof marks; undersides of barrels bear the crown-over-crossed pistols trademark of H. A. Lindner) hammer-gun with Lindner's bifurcated cross-bolting system, with each of the bolts passing through a square hole on either side of the rib extension, which in combination with the two under-bites inside the bar, where joined with the barrel lugs, act as the third-bite. This 12-bore hammer-gun was on offer with
James Julia Auctioneers in October of 2015. Remark that the Lindner 'hidden' bolts shown below are rectangular in overall shape (although, I believe, square in cross section) and are not round, as are the bolts (also hidden) depicted in the Abbey patent drawing:
Daryl's knowledgeable remarks above are well worth consideration and also provide intriguing avenues for further study on the matters you have raised.
Regards,
Edwardian
Upon checking the British patents, I see that G. T. Abbey patented his rising bite in England with patent 2218 of July 21, 1869. It appears the same and the U.S. patent of 87814. Maybe the Use Numbers on Abbey guns 46 and 47 are for the British Patent.
I also see that E.C. Green along with F. J. Abbey and J. H. Foster had a provisional patent 929, of April 8, 1871, for the horizontal sliding bolt that is like Edwardian's fine photo above and like the U.S. patent 114,481, also shown above. British patent 2522 of Sept. 23, 1871, by the same three applicants also gives additiional Provisional Protection to this idea. Interesting to all of us is the mix of Shoverling and Daly [Gales, too]and how they related to German and British efforts sold in the U.S. through S D and G.
Daryl, there are no markings on the barrel extension of George T. Abbey #46. Only markings are: George T. Abbey on the lock plates and "George T. Abbey, Chicago. Fine Laminated Steel" on the rib, Kilby stamped in block letters on the barrels. #46 and #47 use Abbey's patent rising bite #87814 (U.S.) and #2218 (England). Birmingham view and proof marks. No evidence of Lindner influence. Possibly assembled by Thomas Kilby from action sourced from W&C Scott or I Hollis & Son's, with a nod towards W&C Scott. Date: 1869 to 1872. I checked my Boss using the Purdey bolt and 2'nd patent thumb lever. There are no patent usage markings on the action flats. If #46 and #47 patent marks refer to the use of a Purdey patent, it does not show up on the Boss made approximately the same time period. If not a Purdey patent usage mark, still a interesting bit to explore. Have really enjoyed our discussion so far. Very interesting nice old guns.
Eric, if you go to Kirby's website and then go to the Abbey #46, in the small picture icons, the eighth picture from the left shows the top of the receiver , gun open, and pointing toward you. If you click on that picture, enlarging it, there seems to be lettering on the breech end of the top rib extension. I cannot make it out and cannot copy it to another more useable photo source. The lettering appears to be in two lines.
As to the Patent Use Numbers that we see on #46 and #47, I suspect those numbers refer to the British Patent 2218, of July 21, 1869 for the Abbey rising bite. That would make sense, since the Abbey patent was probably used on other British guns, that were probably made by Scott. As an aside, I cannot recall a Patent Use Number on guns for an American patent.
Yes, these guns are interesting. I note, too, that the G T Abbey rising bite patents are illustrated with a Purdey type thumb push opener. I took my gun apart and the mechanism was simpler than expected.
Later,,as I work with Kirby's picture more and expanding it to 400% on my screen, the lettering on the top row appears to be
"Geo. T. Abbey's",, and the bottom row appears to be "Patent".
You are correct! My excuse for not noticing that marking is that I am woefully poor in the vision department. Looked like part of the engraving pattern until I removed my glasses and stuck my nose on the extension! Your reasoning sounds entirely logical to me. Under levers, side levers, top levers, all interesting but I really like the Purdey thumb lever openers!! So elegant in operation and execution. I can see why the top levers won out when combined with ejectors during the Edwardian era of large driven game shoots. They are probably the quickest to reload when in a tight corner. Edwardian, I can see where the light 10's would be perfect for a pheasant drive. For a full day in the field, the 6.5 pound 12 bore game guns are really ideal and even they get a bit heavy by the end of the day!
Eric, I think the thumb push is beautiful and I have a couple of guns with that mechanism. But , I have large hands and my push levers are not built for large thumbs, so they are a bit painful to me. I suppose the top lever was easier to use with gloves, too.
Good on the top rib letter mystery. I would love to know where all of the gun parts traveled before being handed to the buyer. Lovely guns.
Not a pattern welded tubeset, but a tubeset by T. Kilby Special Fine Steel, wearing Birmingham touchmarks, sourced by Springer in 1934, or something on-hand used by Springer.
T Kilby Tubeset Nr. 30845
Have we a running serialization list of T. Kilby's tubesets?
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
Popped into my local Cabela's Gun Library in Richfield, WI. and noticed a George T. Abbey on the rack. Almost identical to #47 discussed in the thread. T. Kilby marked barrels, 32 inches long. Serial number: 1087. My Galazan gauge makes it a 10 gauge with 2&5/8 inch chambers, tubes stamped 11 gauge. (it is marked as a 12 gauge). Barrels are laminated steel with pretty good finish outside and a little pitting inside. The bores would clean up with a very light hone. Wood is in nice condition showing it's age. Nice finish with no visible cracks Action and locks are grey. Nicely engraved with the same engraving on the hammers but slightly different pattern on the locks. They have it priced at 1699.00 and I was interested until I determined that it was indeed a 10 rather than a 12. I am taking care of # 46 in 10 gauge so I passed.
Thanks for the headsup. I do not see it in their internet listing.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
Raimey, I believe they just took it in and do not have photos or listing on their web site. Not a bad gun for that price.
Interesting and nice how this site can work. For reasons that I am sure that many can understand--I had to sell a gun(s) that I did not want to sell, but unexpected Bills are still Bills.
So, I sold the George T. Abbey #46, and now I know who the owner is--and it is somewhat comforting (but I still really miss the Abbey!) to learn of the owner's pride in this wonderful gun.
This would not have happened without doublegunshop.com and an "old" thread about Kilby barrels!!
Best
Berrien
Mr. Moore, I am sorry you had to put Abbey #46 up for sale. Rest assured that I will take good care of her. Wonderful gun and a great shooter. Fit, weight and balance work perfectly for me. My Nephew has taken a shine to it so it will be passed to him in due course. He does know how to properly take care of these guns and how to feed them. I was pleased to see the article in the current Double Gun Journal featuring both #46 and #47. I have a Boss gun with the 2'nd Purdey thumb opener and really like this design. Just so elegant! It's really nice to find information on the guns and builders that find their way into our collections.
Great story and even more proof that we are merely custodians......
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
I am certainly pleased to hear about the care for the Abbey and agree completely with Raimey--merely custodians (but still it can be a painful parting!!)
Best
Berrien
Abbey #1087 has found a new home. Checked the Richfield Gun Library and the Cabela's web site and after 13 months, this very nice gun has a new owner/caretaker. I do hope they take good care of it. I was sorely tempted but passed as a very nice Greener and Abbey #46 fill my need for "short Ten's". Great fun to keep these nice older guns working.
Thanks for the update & have you images you might share?
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
Oversight on my part. I did not think to ask if I could take picture's in the Gun Library. Laminated barrels were nicely browned, action metal and mountings turned to gray. Engraving quite close to #47 only different pattern on the hammers. Wood excellent, sound but a little muddy and could use a nice new oil finish. Someone purchased a very nice gun for little money. We know of #'s 46 and 47 and this one is #1087 of the same pattern using the 2'nd patent Purdey thumb lever. Where are all the rest?
Attrition over time & not stuck back in a closet?
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
