On a Wyoming antelope hunt 2 weeks ago, All of the hunters except me, had laser range finders, adjustable (many) shooting sticks and one guy had a laser range setting scope! Went like this. Spot antelope. Range it, fuss with sticks, antelope moves, range antelope, fuss with sticks and on and on. On our elk hunt this week, MY BOY spots big cow lying down at about 80 yards. Feels he has to change the power on his scope (why?) Misses cow. Fortunately it came down to Dad, who has fixed power scope on the old .416 and kills it DEAD. For years,as many of you know, Diane and I ran a B&B for Bird hunters here in NW kansas. Many of our Hunters had (you guessed it) choke tubes in their guns. Scenario: Go to the field, first rooster flushes at 40 yards. Hunter misses, changes to full choke. 2nd rooster flushes at 6 yards, hunter misses, changes to IC...see where I'm going? Whatever happened to thinking, I can make that shot, or best let him get a ways out, or no thats too far let em go...Dad said "take the shot ya got". Many of our hunters today try to overpower the problem with technology, rather than learning the basic skills. NO Im not loaning my .416 to my boy...Nebraska bird season opens Saturday, ours the next .life is good...AND the elk meat is in MY freezer...

Most of 'em figure it out, eventually. Choke tubes, unless you have but ONE, and I mean, ONE gun, are way overrated.
Best,
Ted

If you watch one of those "Hunting/Informercial" programs by the time you get rigged out with the proper* camo,boots,underwear, insulation,GPS, and the list goes on you're either to tired to go hunting or broke!

*Proper being defined as whatever the show sponsors are hyping at that time.
Jim

Excellent thread! Not really OT at all, to me.
Thank you,

I've seen the same thing at the sporting clay shoots, they see how far the tartget is and then take the time to change chokes, then have to change again for the next target. Thing about it is, most miss. In my opinion if you can shoot it doesn't make any difference within 40 yards.

I'm a Certified Shotgun instructor and I teach youngsters who shoot sporting clays with me just to put in and leave in an Improved Cylinder choke in a single barrelled gun, if a o/u then Improved Cylinder in the bottom and top barrels, or maybe a Light Modified choke in the top barrel and leave all the other chokes at home.
FWIW,
Mike

Sorry about the double post, guys...I have seen many a time a shooter fumble with his choke changing, insted of reading the target and planning the shot(s). Misses usually result
Mike

Jeez do I remember my first shotgun - a Ted Williams (Sears) 20 ga pump with a Pollychoke. What an abomination for a 12 year old! I remember one dove hunt where I twisted it so many times that I launched it (fortunately- or not - saw where it went). In a testimony to those unidentified engineers, the bloody thing screwed back on. No real difference with the swells who are constantly changing tubes, stock demensions, etc between misses. At least I was twelve.

Hello Joe,

You brought up memories. My first shotgun -a Mossberg 12 ga pump- also had
a Polychoke. I had no shooting instructions as far as shotguns were concerned
and assigned all my misses to improper choke, so I kept turning the thing.
Never launched it but I was a little older than you though.

JC

Last week my daughter came over for dear old Dad to change the front axle bearing on her car. She brought a nice Colt Python .357 she'd just bought for, I'm not kidding you, $250.00. She brought some shells and suggested we try it. Told me she was shooting recently with a bunch of her friends and that she was the best shot of the group. We'd shot rifles before but she never wanted to shoot handguns.

I set up a target and gave her ear plugs and muffs and told her to go first from about 20 yds. Her "group" was about 12". I said nothing and took the gun and fired 6 rounds. 5 shots went into under an inch and I pulled the last one out an inch to the right. The group was just outside a 4" bull at 5 O'clock. I told her the sights needed adjusted. She walked up to the target and said, "Holy cow Dad, where'd you learn to shoot like that?" I told her that her Grandfather had taught me and that he told me I wasn't allowed to shoot a repeater until I proved I only needed one shot.

I showed her how to adjust the sights and gave her a lesson and her last groups were under 4 inches. Much better but still room for improvement. I told her we'll load up some mild wadcutter loads and the next time she shoots with her friends she can really make an impression. I think most shooters who feel the need for every gizmo and contraption on the market really never learned to shoot.

I've a friend in Lincoln, NE, who is a great shooter. He uses fixed chokes. He tells of a hilarious sporting clays shoot where he was the first shooter: He stepped up and shot all ten, and as he was walking off the station; someone asked "What chokes did you use?" He said "skeet & skeet." He said the portable power screwdrivers went berserk changing chokes. On the next station, he ran 'em all; and the question came again....so he said "full and full." He said you could hear the buzz buzz of the portable choke changers running behind him.
It's a great, funny story.
Sam Ogle, Lincoln, NE

Amen, Last Dollar...Amen

If he had said "cylinder bored" would the hacksaws have come out?? great story!
Jim

Yes things have changed a bit over the years and most of the reason can be found in the adage "follow the money". Today I read an article about a couple of guys who wrote a book on grouse hunting and would like to start a tv show on upland hunting. It made mention that here in PA the number of grouse hunters has been cut in half in the last ten years. Talks about GPSs and maps and all the good stuff you can buy(didn't actually say buy) that a grouse hunter needs. You know the kind of stuff a mentor (dad) use to show a son or daughter except with a compass and map. I'm sure the guys are doing grouse hunting cause all the walks for cures are shutting down for the winter.
Also an article on how there's and organization that wants to unite the consevationist hikers, bikers, and rock climbers with the hunters and fishers. Thinks they all may agree on a increase in the hunting license fees? I'm certain the hikers, bikers and rock climber are solid on that one. Can't wait to see how the lead shot issue brings everyone together!
Lastly I remember an article about a women nonhunter who had an elk hunt booked for her, by the magazine, so she could see for herself what real hunting was all about. She and her guide chased around through the Wyoming elk country and finally found a good bull about 400 yards out. The women dropped down on the ground oragnized herself to a steady hold with her rifle then pronounced the hunt a success without taking the shot. Implications that it wasn't needed. I remember thinking that if she was going to do that why not try to get 200 yards closer- at least?
Awh sorry. One more. Letter to Field And Stream. Guy says if you aren't going to wait for trophy antlers on a whitetail you shouldn't be in the woods cause its important for healthy deer management. Well best I can make out a young buck with fork horns has the same genes it will have when it gets a "trophy" rack and those game managers keep selln those doe tags so as the kids say or once did: "was up wit dat"? I don't think meat hunting sells as much stuff though? Come to think of it grouse don't have big antlers either?

Our entire economy is based on convincing people to buy junk they don't need. Shooting the TV is an effective cure.

Case in point:
I looked at a Perazzi Sporting clays gun several weeks ago that had 21 choke tubes with it.........WTH????

On the Antelope trip mentioned, I was sharing my truck with a woman, who despite all of the gimcracks had missed SIX antelope. On the 7th, I said, "leave all that crap in the truck, get out, rest on the bed and shoot. If you havnt shot by the time I count three, I'm gonna kick you right square in the ass". She shot at the two count, 207 yard kill....I wonder if she learned anything...

Friends:
Not much I can improve on with these comments. Just that i never even look at the choke of a gun I pull out for a round of clays, and seem to do a passing job with all... including cylinder.

The last elk I shot was stone dead from a .30/06 at about 250 yards. Used a fixed 4X scope for decades and never wanted more.

Gimmicks keep the manufacturers going. The good shot learns by shooting within his limits. And is always careful to respect the game at any range. The rest is just commerce.

Best, Kensal

If it gets peopel into hunting, great.
but most of it is not needed.
remember, wayback, they call scopes new fangled. and bolt action rifles, and pump shotguns, and ..............
technology is the current rage. it keeps progressing (??) But in the end, its trigger control, breathing and sight picture.

As part of my Hunter Education classes I teach compass, map and GPS (really just an introduction to these subjects as I am time limited.) Of the approximate 500 students I see each year, about half are adults. Only one in 50 knows how to make even the most basic use of a compass. Map reading of topo map is even worse. About half of the adults have GPS - but I haven't found one yet that really knew what the combination of all three could do for them. Most didn't even know how to properly setup the GPS. It is truly pathetic how little outdoorsmanship remains.

You're right, Brian, and it's been that way since Hector was a pup. Old school competence is crawling around in a wolf skin trying to scare a buffalo to death. That was all about bladder control, breathing, and vision quest. Saying you can get along with just a little 4x Weaver is sort of like saying "Oh, this little old ray gun; it's just something I keep around to miss with so my head won't get too big for my hat." As for chock tubs, they do have their uses and ic/ic is about as useful as any.

jack

Yes indeed, but even worse when the neophyte outdoes the seasoned hunter. True story... longer than my last, but entertaining I think. I'll try to keep it short as possible and for brevity GBIL will be my abbreviation for Goofy Brother-In-Law.

About 12 yrs ago, GBIL decided to get back into deer hunting because his kid, my nephew, turned 12 and wished to go. GBIL borrowed a gun from his Dad for the kid, a Rem. model 600 carbine .308. He asked me if they could come out to my place to sight in rifles. So far, so good.

They arrived and I set them up on the bench with rest, sandbags, muffs, etc., and he promptly gave the kid the rifle and shells and told him to go ahead. The kid set up and was preparing to shoot with the butt under his armpit and eye about 1/2" from the scope. Of course, I stopped him before he could fire a shot he would never forget. He had no idea what to do and I asked GBIL if he had ever taught him to shoot. "No, this is his first time."
I said he should have gotten him out with a .22 and felt a .308 in a light carbine might be the wrong gun for a small 12 yr. old to start with. I went in and got a scoped .22 and box of ammo and gave him a lesson on safety, hold, sighting, trigger control, etc., and told him to shoot up a box of .22's before going to the .308.

When he finished, I sighted the .308 to be dead on at 100 yds. and then let nephew shoot a few with a sissy bag between the butt and his shoulder. He was still shocked at the recoil and flinched a bit at first, but did OK after I coached him to relax and roll with the punch and realize it wasn't really hurting him. After the session, I told GBIL that he should buy the kid a .22 for Xmas and get him out shooting.

They hunted together that year and didn't get any shooting.

Next season, nephew is now 13 and a little taller and huskier. GBIL again asks to come out and sight in rifles. Again, I set them up and ask if the kid has shot any since last season. GBIL says no, and I ask why in hell he didn't take my advice and get him a .22 instead of Nintendo's or Playstation's. GBIL just shrugs, and I went in for the .22 again and told them to practice for awhile with that before shooting the big guns. I went in to pre-measure some black powder loads so I could shoot my flintlock, and heard them banging away with the .22 for a while before switching over to the .308.

After a bit, GBIL comes in and informs me that the kids' gun is way off, about 8-10" high and 6" to the right. He asked me what to do. I asked if the gun had been dropped or if they had fooled with the scope and he says no. I told him we'll have to check for loose mounts, broken reticle, etc. and if all is well, we'll need to adjust the scope.

I went out and checked things over and all was well. But the target board showed a group, or pattern really, that was about 8" in diameter and way high and right. I noted the kid was shooting off of a pile of sandbags a foot high and told him this was not an excercise to see how well one could balance a gun on a pile of bags. GBIL suggested maybe I should try the gun and I agreed. I got rid of most of the bags, chambered a round and squeezed off. A hole appeared just where I sighted it last year. I tried another and a second hole showed half an inch from the first. The third shot gave me a nice group under the size of a nickel and I said I don't think the problem is with the gun.

I pulled another round from the box and as I placed it on the follower, I caught the headstamp... FN-53 7.62 NATO. I pulled it out and asked GBIL where in hell he got these. He said his Dad gave him a couple boxes to use and I looked and saw the remaining box-and-a-half was a mix of Remington, Winchester, spitzer, round nose, and mostly old military FMJ loads. I informed him that these are illegal to use in Penna. and spend five minutes explaining why. He was adamant that since they shoot OK they will be fine for hunting. I finally get through his thick skull and told him that the gun is fine, but he needed to go out and buy a box of 150 gr. Rem. or Winch. loads and get out again before the season opens to make sure they group where they should. I told him, "You're on your own because I'm leaving for camp to hunt grouse for a few days before deer season opens." I reminded him that the kid really needs a .22 and I looked at the kid and said, "You really need more practice." He giggled at this and I said, "I'm serious, the way you're shooting, if you aim at a deers' heart, you'll be lucky to break it's spine."

Well, I heard nothing until the last day of the season. I believe it was the first year of Penna's. combined buck and doe season. I did not take a doe and got no shots at buck and was at home putting my gear away and heating dinner when the phone rang. My sister was on the phone and she asked if I had been hunting. Then she asked if I did any good and I replied in the negative. Then she told me my nephew wanted to talk to me and I figured the kid probably got a doe.

He got on the phone and breathlessly said, "Uncle Keith, remember when you told me that I needed practice and if I shot at a deer's heart, I'd be lucky if I hit it in the spine?" I said, "Yeah..." He said, "That's exactly what I did!" I still figured he probably whacked a 90 lb. doe and asked what he got. He sounded like he was peeing himself as he said, "I shot a huge 14 point... you gotta come see it!"

So I went to see it and I took my scale so we could weigh it. I almost crapped when they opened the garage where it was hanging. It was indeed a huge non-typical 14 pt., 6 points on one side and 8 on the other with long thick tines, bases as big as my wrists, and 19" spread. This was a mature thick necked buck in his absolute prime, and when we weighed him, he tipped the Stillard scale at 198 lb. hog dressed. (quick edit here: another old hunter assisted them with the hog dressing as GBIL didn't have a clue.) I asked how the kill happened and nephew tells me he was sitting on a log when this bruiser came trotting by at about 30 yards right on the heels of a doe. He said, "I aimed for his heart and when I shot, he just disappeared." Well, I'm not surprised because when I examined the deer for a bullet hole, I found he had hit it high in the neck just behind the skull. A scant inch higher would have just given it a haircut. This is beginners luck on steroids. I tell the kid I think he really missed clean but that a piece of debris from that Space Shuttle finally came down and hit the deer. Of course he thinks he is Larry Koller reincarnated.

I asked GBIL where they would have the head mounted and he told me they were "just going to cut his horns off and screw them to a board." He thought taxidermy would be too expensive. I said, "Are you nuts? I've been deer hunting over 30 years and never got anything close to this. Open your wallet and get the damn thing mounted for the kid."

Well, I convinced him and nephew has a real trophy on his wall. Still thinks he's Joe Deer Hunter. Still couldn't hit a pony in the ass with a snow shovel.

Don't be so hard on Goofy Brother-In-Law, at least he took his son out hunting. My old man was always too busy recovering from the night before or drinking beer or watching football to take me out hunting.
Steve

My neighbor asked me to help him set up a couple of deer stands last weekend. I agreed as he has helped me on other projects in the past. Much to my surprise I discovered that his idea of a deer stand was a small cabin on stilts with a roof to keep the rain out, a padded swivel chair and "shooting windows" on each side. he says that he uses a heater on cold days and sometimes takes a battery operated TV to watch football (hopefully with the sound off) while he is waiting for the deer to show up. For some reason he still finds it necessary to wear one of the latest gore-tex camouflage outfits while inside this contraption! We set up his "deer stand" on the edge of a green field specifically planted to attract deer. He also has an automatic feeder the drops corn at a specified time each day to lure the deer in. Fortunately he has to remove the feeder before hunting season due to Game and Fish regulations. Whatever happened to the idea of "fair chase" hunting?

All you have to know is: C-mere deer.