Hi all, was wondering what your thoughts are on this one:

http://www.safarioutfittersltd.com/EnglishPage20.htm

The gun was made in 1932 and proofed in Birmingham.

So.........Good price? Any comments at all are appreciated.

Thanks and all the best!

Greg

I think for 7K, I would want that buggered screwhead repaired.

C'mon man, 7 large for a sleeved gun with buggered screws, and really no eye popping or outstanding features.. and just by looking at the pics...I'll bet if you grabbed the gun by the wrist and give it a shake, you'd hear or feel the barrels rattle a tad. I like Safari Outfitters, Niles is a really cool guy to deal with, but there are better deals out there on 7 grand guns. Greg, by now, with all your questions over the last couple of years, I would think you would know a good deal when you see one.

Dustin

Thanks all, I'm not buying, but I'm trying to get a base of info for the future, just in case. I agree the price may be a bit high, but I also don't see a lot of 16b SLE on the market.

Can anyone post some examples of a good "eye popping" 16b English SLE in this price range? I'd appreciate it if you could.

All the best!

Greg

Greg, Wilkes was a London maker. Seems odd to me that a Wilkes gun would have original Birmingham proofs, assuming the proofs to which you refer are the original ones and not for the gun post-sleeving. If the original proofs are Birmingham, then I'd suggest the gun was not made by Wilkes, but rather FOR Wilkes by workers in "the trade" in Birmingham. That's not necessarily bad, but it does mean you would not be buying a REAL Wilkes. Don't know enough about Wilkes to know how often they put their name to guns made for them.

Larry I have seen a couple John Wilkes boxlocks that were just what you mentioned, it might hold true for (some) sidelocks also.

You'd be surprised how many Best guns were built in Brum. All the research I continue to take in says many top London makers used Birmingham trade which were simply some of the best in the World so it doesn't matter to me really...If it's a Wilkes it's a Wilkes because wherever it was made it was made to a standard that was acceptable or beyond the makers criteria.

Having said that it does seem a tad expensive for a sleeved example. I'd sell my Lancaster Sidelock for that which I think is a nicer gun and has original barrels.

T

If you are willing to take a minimum 3 thousand dollar hit out the door...go for it.

Hi all and thanks again for the replies. Wilkes while a London maker also had a shop in Birmingham that was closed down in the early 30's. The gun could have been either proofed in Birmingham and finished in the London shop or completely made in Birmingham.

There is an article in the current DGJ on Wilkes, well done and informative.

Now you have my curiosity peeked. So what do you think is a fair price for this gun? We have Joes opinion.

Again, thanks!

Greg

"Can anyone post some examples of a good "eye popping" 16b English SLE in this price range? I'd appreciate it if you could."

That is the issue, real good 12 bores are in the 12K+ range, small bores command a premium. I know this gun, figure this as a starting price point for a good quality small bore SLE

http://www.schwandtclassicarms.com/Cashmore%2016%20063.jpg

it is at schwandt arms

Awesome flying turnips...


Best,
Ted

Thanks Steve for the post. I've looked at this one before. Good maker and I'm sure a good gun. I'm going to play devils advocate here...so please Steve this is no reflection on you or your post, so forgive me if I use your post as an example.

Anyway, here is a gun that is going for close to 11k what I see is a gun that needs a face lift. The bbls are dinged up (marks and scratches) the wood has numerous handling marks and dings and it looks like the wood should be refinished. Also for the purest the bbls have an importers mark on the bbls. True this gun does not have sleeved bbls and the screws are fine. What I see is a well used gun, not abused, but not well taken care of either. I'm not against sleeved bbls at all, if the job is done right. Sleeving to me gives a gun a new lease on life. This is just my opinion.

It seems at times that when someone posts a gun here (and not just me) someone has to tear it apart. Sometimes it's justified and problems are pointed out, great, a second set of eyes is good. Sometimes we are blinded and we need someone to bring us back to the real world. But there are times when a gun is in good working order and is in fine shape, someone has to rip it apart. I'd bet that if someone posted they just got a Purdey right from the shop, someone would find fault with it.

There is a lot of good info on this forum and lots of folks with knoweldge that would knock your socks off. But there are others who just can't say a good thing about anything.

Again, just my thoughts.

All th best!

Greg

It's all in the way we each see things is all. In my view, and bare in mind I refinish guns for a living, I prefer an honest gun with evidence of use to a refinished gun. Same goes for barrels, my personal gun has never had the barrels touched and much of the finish is worn away. I may some day re-black them, but I am in no hurry to. I just could never personally be happy with sleeved tubes, and not because I am the Teague agent, I just could not accept them on my own gun. Here is my old gal......quite possibly in need of a refinish in many peoples eyes, but I think I will just shoot her as is.

Hi Steve, your comment of "all in the way we each see things" is perfect!! Could not have said it better.

All the best!

Greg

Hilarious!! And I am making no judgment about the gun or the engraving. Just Ted's comment.

Flying turnips....that's too funny.

That Cashmore looks like it could have been engraved alongside a Parker, or three.
11 large, and you get stick figure birds. Oh yea, and as Greg pointed out, it's basically beat to hell.
There is a lot to be said for just leaving the scroll to stand alone.
I'm pretty sure Old Lightning or Klunk, or, somebody from the old board came up with the term "flying turnips". But, sometimes, it just fits so well.

Best,
Ted

OK, according to my research, Wilks has Brand Value level two (BV2). My initial reaction to the gun was a best work SLE (OQ1); high % engraving coverage of seemingly good engraving, a Royal pattern action/locks, good wood, STTF, and no through lumps (last two are styling issues well ettled by '20's). The Current Condition level appeared/sounded like "Restored with a ding for sleeved barrels" - say level six (CC6). That would be BV2-OQ1-CC6 = $6655 for a 12 bore and we usually add up to 50% premium for 16 bore. So, something is amiss between value and price from a vendor unlikely to under price a gun.

Hmmm! What say you all as to Original Quality grade? Best work? Grade A (OQ2)? Grade B (OQ3)? And, what say you all to Current Condition level? If a fully restored gun is a level five (CC5), How much ding do the sleeved barrels give? What premium do you all imagine for 16 bore?

Price and value would agree if we called it a BV2-OQ2-CC6 = $4652 for 12 bore and gave it a 50 % premium for 16 bore ($6978).

I'm sure a dealer or two will disagree with me, but, I'd call the value correct at $6978 for a 16 with original barrels that were in proof. Remove 50% of that price for sleeved barrels, 25% for "other than maker" replacement barrels, 20% for "maker" replaced barrels.
A gun is not, and never will be OQ1 with non-original barrels. Regardless of what the dealer tells you.


Best,
Ted

I dis-agree completely. If the Maker re-barreled the gun, especially in the pre-war period, the gun takes little or no hit on the market or in my eye.

Myself I'd deduct 50% for a 16 ga.

The problem is, there are damn few, pre-war rebarrelings in second tier guns by the original maker.
Show me an example. The very great majority have been done since the war, by someone else.
Since you "disagree completely" with my post, show me what is wrong with my logic on sleeved barrels?
I think you'll find it is spot on, as long as you are honest, and aren't in the business of selling sleevers...

Best,
Ted

I had a pair of SLE Powell's in earlier this year, 1893 guns with one gun re-barreled by them pre-1925. The guns are currently being lined. A good friend has 2 lovely H&H guns, a shotgun with 3 sets of barrels and a rifle. One of the shotgun sets was added in the teens, I for the life of me can not tell which set it is. The rifle is similar in that the barrels are superb and the quality is up to typical H&H standards. To me, you must judge each gun on its own merits and there are some nice re-barreled guns out there. I personally do not care for sleeved guns and feel that they are never quite what they could be.

Springer auction in action these days in Vienna. I guess there are some good stuff with very good start prices.
Take a look
http://www.springer-vienna.com/springer_auktionen.php

Hi all, thanks Don for your great input with your analysis you do with regards to Brit guns using your rating system. I sure like it. Thanks also Ted and Steve for your input, very thought provoking.

I did some more checking on this gun and it does have both London and Birmingham proofs. I would guess the gun is an original London gun, then reproofed after the sleeving in Birmingham.

If this is so, then Don is right and this was/is a OQ1 (Best SLE) or at least an "A" grade gun.

So...what say you on this?

All the best!

Greg

Greg, I would say, save your money and go out and buy yourself a Ruger Red Label in 28 gauage you'll sell all the rest of your guns after hunting with that baby or at least confine same in a vault!!!

I say buy it and take the $4000 beating like a man.

Hi all, as I said before, I'm not buying!!!! This is one of those guns that a discussion was started and now its evolved. This was just a FWIW post and to gain some info for future use.

I'm still curious as to what "grade" this gun may be.

All the best!

Greg