I have read Sherman Bells articles on the 10 ga, but note that there are no Pb loads. I use Pb in my 12's for low pressure and think it would be perfect for the short 10's. I have used 7625 in my 10s ,but I have had some ignition problems.. I know 4756 and 7625 seem to be preferred, but I have a lot of Pb and think it would be a good choice between Clays and 7625 for 1 1/4 oz loads..
Has anyone had experience with Pb and worked up loads??

Leighton, I don't have any data either. However, PB and 7625 seems to have similar (though not idential) characteristics. I wonder about using 7625 data but substituting PB and then sending five rounds to Armbrust for testing. Then you could begin tweaking the load. Fairly inexpensive and there's time since big bird season is soon drawing to a close. I really like PB in my 12 gauge for vintage loads so just can't see any reason on earth why it wouldn't work on the big boy.

http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

Why Pb? Pb means plumbum (lead), but BP means Black Powder.
Thumb rule is very simple, use as many BP (2F) you can pour under the shot and wads and make good roll crimp.

Geno you are quite correct Pb is the scientific designation for lead, however, the original poster was referring to a DuPont IMR powder designated PB.

IMR stands for Improved Military Rifle powder. 4756 & 7625 were classified by Duont as Sporting Rifle powders, thus SR. I believe that PB was classified as a Shotgun Powder. In any case the PB designation related to its mode of manufacture & stood for Porous Base. It is still a hard gelatinized powder, not a fibrous powder as was the old bulk EC, but has itty-bitty holes in it.
It should give much cleaner & more efficient burning under low pressures & cool temps than either of those SR powders. PB is a faster powder than 7625, I would definitely cut the charge wt from a 7625 load.
The 10ga bore has 13% more capacity than the 12ga. Personally I would feel much safer to find a 12ga load using PB with 1 1/8oz in the desired pressure range & then loading 13% more powder with the 1¼oz in the 10ga, than in trying to work with 7625 loads.
Green Dot is a very efficient powder in a similar burn range to PB. It normally uses a lighter charge wt & also usually can be found for lesser $ per lb.

My early 50's lyman Handbook recomends 27 grains of red dot for 3 3/4, 1 1/4 oz 10 bore loads. This was with card wads. They don't seem bothered by the lack of PSI or FPS data however they called for 70 psi wad pressure. I note that many people don't seem to realize that wad pressure was critical on paper hull, paper wad loads.

bill

Bill;
An old Lyman Handbook of mine dated 1951 gives 24 grs Red Dot as 3 DE with from 1 to 1¼oz shot & 26grs for a 3¼DE load with 1 1/8oz shot, all in 12ga. 24grs & 1 1/8 plus 13% is extremely close to the 27gr- 1¼oz load in the 10ga. A late 50's Lyman handbook had dropped the heaviest load of RD in the 12ga to 23grs-1 1/8oz for 3DE.
Not positive but I think they received a lot of their shotgun data at that point in time directly from the powder makers.

I shot many rounds of trap last summer through a twist barrel Parker using Federal hull trimmed to 2 7/8", Win 209 primer, 22 grains of green dot, SP10 wad, enough 16ga filler wad to make a good crimp (about 1/2"), 1 1/8 ounce of lead shot, star crimp. This is a very comfortable and effective load but it is of my own design and has not been pressure tested by anyone I know. My logic is there are similiar 12ga loads of that amount of GD and shot and the 10 gauge is going to have less workign pressure due to bore size. Works great for me, use at your own risk.

Miller I think you are correct on the origins of PB, however, today it is marketed as IMR PB.

Using the load of 25 gr of 7625 in my 12's and
20gr.of Pb in my 12's I decided to use the ratio which
is 25/20 or 75%. Using that I come up with 80% of 7625 which would give me 25.5 gr in my 10's or about 20% less. I think I will start with 24 gr and work up.
As a confession, I mistakenly loaded some 32 gr.Pb instead of 7625 a few years ago in a 10 ga that I had and noticed it kicked somewhat more before I discovered my mistake ,but nothing terrible happened.So 24-25 gr here we come.
As a matter of interest, 20grs Pb with 1 1/8 oz in a 12 ga AA hull is only 6300 psi
Thanks for the help

Stallones

If it's of any help, Lyman's 5th has several PB loads listed for the 3 1/2" 10 ga. All 1 5/8 oz loads. Pressures range anywhere between 8500-9800 psi. Charge wts are 32.5-36.5grs. It would seem you are pretty safe where you are starting out.

Cheers
Marcus

Stallones,

I have used 24 gr of PB as my exclusive load for 1 1/4 oz 10 gauge loads for over 8 years at the Vintage Cup. I use a SP-10 wad with a nitro card underneath for roll crimped 2 7/8". If you are fold crimping, skip the nitro card.
When I load 2 5/8s for my old Boswell 10 hammer, I use the same wad/shot but drop the nitro card (still roll crimping).
This load has won a few times in 10 ga events and it is easy on gun/hull.

Joe

Thanks Joe, That fits in with what I was hoping. I am guessing that load is about 6000psi from what I can extrapolate.
That will also solve my cold weather ignition problems from 7625.

Joe I have a couple nice load using Solo 1250 using Federal plastic and Winchester paper hulls trimmed to 2 7/8th inches but unfortunately Solo 1250 has been discontinued. What hull(s) are you using and what is the velocity and chamber pressure for your PB ounce and a quarter loads?

Joe:

Do you need a filler in the SP10 wad with the fold crimp, or is the 1-1/4 ounce load sufficient to fill the shell to allow a good crimp? I've been looking for a 10 gauge, fold crimp load for my I. Hollis hammer gun (damascus) and yours looks promising, as I've already got several hundred Federal hulls from RST loads and lots of PB from reloading for a 12 gauge damascus barreled Thomas Turner.

Thanks.

Rem

sherman bells article calls for a 16 ga 1/4 in nitro card inside the sp10 wad.i use that wad in my lc grade 2 and 3 10ga.loaded on a mec 600 jr 1 1/4 shot.it crimps great on rst shells with the card wad in bottom of shotcup.
tom

I tried the 16 ga filler inside the wad. I ended up with the nitro card on the powder, then the SP-10 wad atop. The advantage for me is that most of the shot is inside the protective petals of the wad and suffer less shot deformation/leading.
If you are fold crimping 2 7/8", just leave out the nitro-card. I used to put a card-over wad before fold crimping, just to be sure nothing slipped past my crimps. Those Federal 10s were tough for me to keep closed.
I have never looked back since switching to roll crimping. It was a long wait on ebay to find a vintage Lyman 10 roll crimper.
Remember, you don't have to be married to exactly 2 7/8" it can be shorter if necessary.
I usually shoot my Fed 10s 2-3 times at 2 7/8" then shorten them to 2 5/8" for a last couple of loads throuh my old Boswell 2 5/8" 10 hammer, ca 1878.

Hey 40x,
I have a Thomas Turner damascus 12 with scalloped stock. 5 3/4 lb with 28" bbls. It is a quail killing machine. Don Amos, Mr. MOI measured it and proclaimed it to be dynamically identical to a 2" game gun. I corrected Don's statement. My 1894 Thomas Turner lightweight predates the 2" game gun by about 35 years. So the correct statement would seem to be, the 2" game gun duplicates the weight and handling qualities of a Turner lightweight.

Joe

Joe:

Is the lightweight the Turner with the stock hollowed out? I am not describing it well, but I've seen photos of a couple. Looked a bit odd, but apparently got a good bit of weight out of the butt.

Rem

I'll post some Turner photos in a new post after I get home. Yes it is a really pretty piece of walnut scalloped out to about 1/4 thick. There is a heal plate to help strenghten the butt. The button is on the top of the stock.

Joe