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I wonder how many passenger guns and 'new gun shipments' to North America of side by sides went down on the Titanic on April 15, 1912...?

Anybody have access to White Stars shipping manifest for an accounting, maker and bore/caliber.....?.....

The Titanic also, I believe, was set up for clay shooting and had on board 'loaners'....?....

It would be interesting to know how many and what makers were lost forever on that fateful night..........
It would be interesting to see the list of all goods that were shipped on the Titanic when it sank.
Given the affluence of many of the passengers and the fact that guns didn't have the restrictions they have today, there were likely a bunch of the "good stuff" just in the pax luggage. I mean if you were able to read the gazette on a marble throne in the middle of the Atlantic, you likely had a few manly trinketts from London's Bond street or Audley House.
Here is the Titanic shipping manifest.

http://www.supershipsworld.com/titaniccargomanifest.html
Lots of walnuts and cheese. But that 2 barrels of mercury than American Express shipped is interesting. I wonder where that is today? Probably used in a gold mine sluse box in Alaska, CA or CO or some such place.
Noted 76 cases of "dragon blood".....?....Whatever that is... smile

Noticed 5 cases of 'shells' from Kronfeld, Saunders & Co....

Guns must have been listed as just "Parcels"...?...
Wonder if that mercury was used for blocking gents' hats, resulting in mad hatters? That was a major use of the stuff, and NY was a hatter's metropolis back then.

Don't know if even the best lubed, best packed double would be more than part of a "rust icicle" by now. Sad story, beginning to end.
Posted By: Douglas Tate Dragons Blood - 04/14/12 03:55 PM
a deep-red, water-insoluble resin exuding from the fruit of a palm, Daemonorops draco, of the Malay Archipelago, used chiefly in the preparation of varnishes and in photoengraving for protecting certain areas of the metal plate from the acid.

During a 6 year indentured apprenticeship as a photoengraver I used lots of dragons blood.
Originally Posted By: PA24
Noted 76 cases of "dragon blood".....?....Whatever that is... smile


It was a deep red resin used for making varnish.

Peter
The endless fascination with the Titanic is an interesting cultural study.

The sunken ships are the famous ones.

It's like that on the Great Lakes, too.

A few are preserved, but they attract little interest. Look how difficult it seems to be to display the SS United States.

Unless it's a battleship! We have a large supply of battleships. Truely useless since 12-7-41, they attract visitors wherever preserved and displayed.

Enterprise, CV-6, the vessel that actually contributed the most to VJ Day was scrapped in 1959. That ship should have been preserved right along side Old Ironsides.

Ah well. I see where Ballard wants to 'preserve' the Titanic wreck. Another thing I don't understand. What good is anything at the bottom of the Atlantic? It will all be consumed by oxidation in a few years anyway.
Originally Posted By: Shotgunjones
... Unless it's a battleship! We have a large supply of battleships. Truely useless since 12-7-41, they attract visitors wherever preserved and displayed.


...and a point driven home on April 7, 1945*.












*On April 7, 1945, Yamato, with 18" guns was sunk by aircraft carrier born airplanes.
Yes, and Musashi 6 months earlier.

Hey, any historic ship that is preserved is a bonus. It's good that the battleships were saved, I just question the selection process.

The interesting ones were not saved. HMS Warspite, and IJN Nagato for instance.

We do have some very historic Essex class ships on display, and that's a real positive.

But to scrap CV-6 was a national disgrace only exceeded by the two Saturn V's built and not flown.

Buncha nutballs running this country.
Strange that major liquor companies were shipping olive oil, mushrooms and other weird cargo. J.P. Sauer is shipping 318 bags of potatoes. I wonder if some stretching of the import duty laws was going on?
...then as now.
Here's an interesting essay for you on Titanic day.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304444604577337923643095442.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

100 years later, it's the government's fault.

Illustrates how people think about government regulation.

Commenting on how many guns may have been destroyed on Titanic, consider how many fine guns never were... because the prospective customers perished a few years later in France. Another government caused tragedy.
Originally Posted By: Shotgunjones
We do have some very historic Essex class ships on display, and that's a real positive.


Most of us old Naval Aviators have very fond memories of the Essex Class Carriers which were used heavily in Viet Nam and conflicts prior to that. Most of the 23 built started out as straight deck carriers and were later modified to angle deck carriers. C=Carrier...V=Aviation....A=Attack....S=Anti-Submarine....T=Training....

Only four Essex class warriors still remain,

1. The "Lady Lex" CV-16, later CVT-16, The U.S.S. Lexington (aka-The Blue Ghost) which was used for student pilot carrier training in the Gulf of Mexico beginning in the early 60's up through 1991....many of us, including me, carrier-qualified on the Lexington. She now is at rest and is a museum, open to the public in Corpus Christi, TX. 1943-1991 active duty...1991 to present as a museum.

2. CVA/CVS-10 The U.S.S. Yorktown, 1943-1970 active duty...1974-present a public maritime/naval aircraft museum at Patriot's Point, Mt. Pleasant, South Carolina.

3. CVA/CVS-11 The U.S.S. Intrepid, 1943-1974 active duty....now a public maritime/naval aircraft museum in New York City Harbor. She was docked on the Hudson River side when I used to fly over her.

4. CVA/CVS-12 The U.S.S. Hornet, 1942-1970 active duty, 1998-present a public maritime/naval aircraft museum in Alameda, California.

These proud carriers, all of them wonderful old ladies, served their nation very well and now serve millions of visitors annually. As proud warriors of a free nation, they are very fond memories for thousands of U.S. Naval personnel who served under their flags and carrier battle groups.........I am fortunate enough to have landed aircraft on some of them, sorry that most of them are gone now, but so many great memories are not gone.

May these remaining four continue their glory as museums for all to see.

I had the pleasure of recommissioning Missouri in 1986. I reported aboard in 1985 and left in 1991. I would have gladly done my entire 20+ years on her. There were quite a few miles left in the old girl, but was not very economical to operate. Right off the top, she consumed 30,000 to 50,000 gallons of MDF each day unerway. I was LPO and Turret Captain of Turret One. Desert Shield and Desert Storm were certainly the highlights of my career.
Just watched the Discovery Channel docu-drama on the Titanic...followed up with the Concordia. I think I've sailed my last cruise ship.
Originally Posted By: Chuck H
Just watched the Discovery Channel docu-drama on the Titanic...followed up with the Concordia. I think I've sailed my last cruise ship.


The two vacations I hope never to take: 1) a cruise anywhere 2) Las Vegas. The only vacation that would be worse would be a cruise to Las Vegas.
PA 24. When the Movie came out (The latest with De caprio) I suggested to Mike McIntosh that we try to find out(If we could, as I did not have a computer, If we could find out from my earlier research,who in the 1st Class passengers were Purdey Clients,I had my Years of JP&S Records, I had shared my "Stuff" with Don Dallas when he was writing his PURDEY book, Mike became"Un-well" so I put it all aside.It was quite interesting finding who was a H&H, Boss, Purdey, Clients, then checking the name againt the Passenger/Crew/Etc. Lists I had in my files.I think I gave all my research to a "Young Writer" who was going to"Follow Through". I'm glad there is still some Interest in the OLD Stuff...DT-C/C
I think one point here needs to be kept in mind. The ship was sailing in April which is about 6 Months removed from hunting season. What would be the practical purpose in bringing your shotguns along?
I should add unless you purchased a brand new one while touring Europe.
Jim
Shopping spree in London.
Originally Posted By: Chuck H
Lots of walnuts and cheese. But that 2 barrels of mercury than American Express shipped is interesting. I wonder where that is today? Probably used in a gold mine sluse box in Alaska, CA or CO or some such place.


There was probably more than one use for mercury in the mining towns. Penicillin wasn't discovered until 1928. For sveral centuries before the advent of the age of antibiotics, mercury was used for medical tratments.........specifically for syphilis.
If syphilis didn't kill you the mercury would! I believe that more than a few on the Corp of Discovery were treated with Mercury.


In March 1805, Clark casually writes in his journal, “Generally healthy except venerials complains which is verry Commion.” Three men are mentioned by name in the journals of the expedition as being treated for syphilis, although many historians believe the majority of the men suffered from sexually transmitted diseases. Sexual contact did occur between the Corps of Discovery and some of the Native American women.

"The standard treatment of syphilis was the application of mercury. It was given either as a salve to the lesion or as a pill. It was stopped when excessive salivation and sore gums occurred, signs of mercury poisoning. It was then resumed until the lesion was cured. Some medical historians propose that Meriwether Lewis suffered from neurosyphilis, causing mental derangement leading to his suicide."

Sorry for the aside from the main point of the thread. Perhaps, some on board the ship had the mercury treatment administered on board.

The thing down there I would want is the car that Mr Carter purchased. Do you know how cool it would be to restore it and say you had the only car shipped on Titanic. I would be happy with the engine, transmission, brass trim and frame. If the movie was accurate it should be located in the bow, it should be complete minus the body work.
I am sure most, if any guns on board, were in luggage and there would be no way to locate them on the shipping manifest. Passengers had a substantial luggage allowance in those days.
That's a great thought, but based on what I saw of the ship, it's probably all but gone to corrosion.
Here's an example of what salt water can do to a fine gun in short order. This browing Diana grade got saturated with sea water during an Atlantic Ocean transit while stored in the hold of a ship with other household goods.
It belongs to an associate of mine who was given it by the owner after the insurance settlement.
Jim

Doug, I would suspect that the shells refered to in the manifest were probably just that; the sea type that is, as I would expect them to have been recorded as cartridges having set sail from Britain.

Shotgunjones, interesting point you raised about guns and the Great War as it probably preserved a good many. Guns ordered and never collected or else guns sent to the makers for storeage and never collected. The death toll among junior officers was enormous. Lagopus.....
Originally Posted By: lagopus
Doug, I would suspect that the shells refered to in the manifest were probably just that; the sea type that is, as I would expect them to have been recorded as cartridges having set sail from Britain.



Thanks Michael, I would say you are correct. Thanks Pete and Douglas Tate on the Dragon's Blood...probably not used any more with the advent of 'modern' chemistry...?

Firearms were probably listed as something they were not for obvious reasons....like J.P. Sauer shipping potato's that eightbore mentioned...?....

The Renault Automobile that was made so famous by the movie is not shown on the manifest...so that leads one to believe the ships manifest does not list all the passenger merchandise that was shipped in the cargo holds, even insured or bulk items....?....

There were a number of rich Americans returning on the Titanic and I am sure many fine firearms went down that night, after all, everyone owned and shot guns back in those days......
Originally Posted By: italiansxs
Here's an example of what salt water can do to a fine gun in short order. This browing Diana grade got saturated with sea water during an Atlantic Ocean transit while stored in the hold of a ship with other household goods.
It belongs to an associate of mine who was given it by the owner after the insurance settlement.
Jim

I have heard rumors of the infamous "Salt wood" Brownings, but have not yet seen one- not being a real Browning fan (my 1911-A-1 Colts nonwithstanding) so thak you for sharing this with us. Gonna take a box car load of SOS pads and Formby's wood stripper to clean that puppy up---
Poured myself a nice tot o'Bushmills last night and watched the 1958 Limey production "A Night To Remember"-- have a slight kinship to that tragedy- my great-grandfather (maternal side) Seamus was a ship's millwright with Harlan & Wolff in Belfast- he worked on the RMS Olympic until mid-1910, then left with family for NYC to seek his fortune in America. He was a fearsome bare knuckles pugilist, died of a heart attack in late 1916 (my maternal grandmother Rose always said it was because of the Easter Sunday "business" back in Ireland--

The 1958 movie didn't have all the "romantic byline' of the James Cameron re-make with DeCaprio and Winslett- Class distinctions were in force in 1912- no way a steerage Mick bum who wins his ticket with a 'full boat" (a touch o'Irish irony here, lads)in a Belfast pub poker game is going to be asked to dine with the first class-even for one hour--Hollywood- go figure. At least they had the spoiled rich steel baron's bodyguard carrying (by one year anyway) a 1911 Colt--huummm
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