About how much of a premium will a 16 fetch above an identical 12? In this case it's a prewar British boxlock.

15%

50%

16 British doubles are a lot rarer than 12's in my experiences. I would expect to have a least 25% premium and would not be suprised at a 50% asking price extra. Asking and getting are not the same.

One other important thing other than the short chamber of British doubles when compared to US doubles is the weight issue. A 12 British double will weigh less than a US 12 and about what a US 16 weighs. A 16 British double is in the US 20 range. So if you are looking for a 7 pound double think British 12 or US 16. If you are looking for a six pound gun look for a British 16 or a US 20.

Less for me.

While some say a british 16 is worth more than a 12 of the same grade and maker and that maybe true. However it must be understood as a buyer as if you are the seller you may discover a 2 1/2 16 gauge is harder to sell than a 12 all other things being equal regardless of beauty.

I admit I am partial to 16's and took my first prairie chicken of this year with my lightweight 16 Greener FH50. I agree that many Brit or Belgian 16s weigh the same or lighter than an American 20.

I'm with Rookhawk: 50%

Three to four years ago I would have agreed with 50%. Now, I think the 16 bore market has weakened/cooled and 25% may be more realistic.

DDA

Joe, Rocketman, AmarilloMike, OldColonel, et al.,

Being British 16Ga shotguns more expensive than 12Ga's, perhaps reflecting the former's scarcity, does it applies the same difference to US shotguns? Which other variables may be at play with your local makes?

As a matter of fact down South here, in spite the 16Ga is less abundant it gets 15 to 30% less price than a 12Ga of the same make/class. The main reason IMO is that locally the 16Ga is considered a "blue collar" gun. On the other hand, the 20Ga equivalent is regularly 15-25% more expensive. There is a widespread fad here that regards the 20Ga more "sporting". In addition, older, well to do shooters here also prefer and pay a premium for 20Ga shotguns because of weight and recoil.

Regards,

EJSXS

According to research carried out several years ago by Eley; only 3.2% approx; of British shotguns were made in 16G.[As a matter of interest the same 3.2% also applies to 20G].
The 16G has never been popular with British sportsmen.Webley and Scott offered a 16G in their 700 series of shotguns ,the price for the 16&12G was the same!
In past times the 16G shotguns in the U.K.was difficult to sell.During the 1960- 1990 period they could be purchased for 60-75% of a 12G of similar condition/type/make.
In recent years several dealers in the U.S.A have taken to listing the 16G along with .410,28G & 20G as a,"Small Bore" with prices escalated accordingly.
I for one would not pay premium for a 16G over a 12G to gain a weight reducion of 5-6 ozs.This logic may not apply to a collector.

Roy, I think Holt's lists the 16 ga. as a small bore in their auctions. Times do change. I also think the possible premium might apply differently to different makes of guns. In the U.S. products, guns like Lefever can differ in weight around a pound between 12 and 16 gauges. The latter command maybe 50% more .

Interesting - here in New England, I think it is the opposite. 16 ga. is part of the Fox/Parker grouse and woodcock hunting lore, and more frequently associated with the bambboo flyrod crowd than the blue collar/meat hunter crowd (to the extent that any such generalizations can be fairly made).

From my experience and reading on the situation at the turn of the past century durring the hay day of the American double gun 8, 10 and 12 gauge guns were considered "meat guns" favored mostly by market hunters and serious water fowl hunters, and pigeon (trap) shooters. The 16 gauge was considered a "Bird gun" favored by gentleman hunter/sportsmen, 20 gauge guns were light sporting gauge suitable for young boys, teen age girls and women. The .410 was considered suitable only for eliminating garden pests.

The 16 gauge lost popularity only after the firearms makers, Gun writers and to a certain extent ammunition manufacturers started hyping the need for "Magnum Power" and touting the virtues of the 20 gauge 3 inch magnum which we all know is false.

As far as premiums for British guns I would think due to scarcity they would be at least 40-50% higher than like 12 gauge guns while in the US the 16 gauge still commands a premium in high quality guns of 20-30%.

Whether any individual would pay a small bore premium really isn't the question. Rather, it's what the market shows. I think somewhere in the 25-33% range is accurate for Brit guns. Might be even higher for American "classics". You can find a decent Sterlingworth 12 for around $1K. Good luck finding a 16 in the same condition for much under $1500. I think one reason American 16's hold their edge over American 12's has to do with people looking for something in the "game gun" weight range for upland hunting. There are plenty of Brit 12 game guns out there, weighing pretty much what American 16's weigh--and a lot less than your average American 12. So the same individual who might opt for a Brit 12 and pass on the premium for a Brit 16 would likely stay away from most American 12's.

With the overwhelming preference for the 12 ga. in pre-war US and and UK, I wonder why the 16 ga.was so heavily favored in Germany.

What about 28 ga British guns? These are a lot more desireable than a 16 with its marginal difference in weight to a 12 ga and mainly the availability of cheap and plentiful ammunition.
As an aside, I have a painful rotator cuff injury in my left shoulder, I am lefthanded, and have been shooting my Remington 1100 28 ga Sporting semi-automatic all summer in sporting clays shoots and my scores, such as they are, were much the same as using my Beretta 682 prior to my injury.
So, I'll start the ball rolling, 300 percent premium for a Webley and Scott 700 BLE in 28 ga?

We have a difference of opinion of British 16s. I have a Gallyon Birmy boxlock sixteen that weighs 5lbs-9oz. As far as ammunition availability unless you are shooting the Webley 700 28 your 28 British boxlock was designed to shoot 2-1/2" 9/16 oz loads in all probability. I have one, a Salter and Varge Birmy ejector, 25", that weighs 5lbs-3oz. RST doesn't make a 9/16oz 28 gauge shell the last I looked. But they do make a 16 gauge 2-1/2" 7/8oz shell, which was the standard service load for British 2-1/2" sixteens.

Well, one can load any gauge on a MEC 600, short 28 ga, light 12 ga 2 1/4", not a big deal to those of us prepared to work at it.
Cheaper too. Just because it's not available from RST does not mean the gun is parked in the safe

Might be something close to a 100% premium for a Brit 28, based on prices for the 700 series Webley & Scotts. But the trend today is for 28's with longer barrels, and as far as I know, all the 700 series 28ga guns came with 26". Too bad.

Re Brit 16's, I don't own one currently. However, remembering as best I can, all the ones I have owned were marked with a 1 oz proof. That's not to say you'd want to shoot 100 clay birds with 1 oz loads in one of those guns, or even a round of skeet. I reloaded low pressure 7/8 oz for targets and saved the Brit 1 oz loads for pheasants, etc.

I recently sold a minty Webley 728 at about 90% premium to a 12. Nice gun but with the short barrels it was whippy and it offered nothing beneficial my light 16's don't already have.

To answer Rogers query on the 16ga popularity in Continental Europe I believe the answer lies in a Napoleonic Era edict which forbade the populace from owning firearms that were equal to military issue muskets. The Brown Bess, Brunswick and French Smooth bores were all .720-.730 caliber, thus sportsmen were confined to 16bore and smaller.

Hugh, that's good info. I had always "guessed" that the 16s fit the commonly used drillings etc. better than the 12 did. Probably better ammo availability for the 16 , too.

My comment about the availability of 2-1/2 28 gauge compared to 2-1/2 16 gauge was in answer to this:

My godfather's father was an officer in the Naval Marines in the Golden Age of Shotgunning. He favored the 16 as it deterred the shell moochers on a busy drive.
Only works if they are shooting 12's.

Thanks Hugh, I was unaware of that historic piece of information. It makes lots of sense. I had been thinking along the lines of Daryl's comment because the few 12 gauge drillings I've encountered seemed awfully bulky.

Thanks,
Roger

I feel the % increase in British guns is less because Brit guns were usually upland guns and lighter than their American cousins. In our country, 12's (and 10's) were all around guns for deer and waterfowl while sub-gauges were for upland game. In Britain, 12's were mainly upland guns and 6 pounders were not uncommon. A 20 in a classic American shotgun is both rare and neatly balanced and light. They are worth more and sell quickly.

As I recall the Brown Bess shot a ball of about .720" dia while the french musket shot one of .69". Both had a good deal of "Windage" in the bore for easy loading so the Brown Bess went to about .750 as I recall with the Frwnch going about .720". A lot of the French muskets were used in our American Revolution & it became the basis for muskets of this period built here in America as the Commitie of Safety muskets. Some versins of the smoothbore .69 cal muskets were in use as late as the "War Between the States". There have been other instances in history where guns of "Government Caliber" have been declared illegal. This is in fact as I understand it what brought on the development of several non-.45 caliber Nitro Express rounds for use in Africa such as the .465s .470 etc all with similar balistics to the .45s they were replacing.

The Brits were much more into "purpose built" guns, while American gunmakers turned out far more "all around" guns. There's no shortage of vintage British fowlers and pigeon guns. We certainly had trap guns and waterfowl guns, but a lot of Americans used their Sterlingworth 12's for everything. I look at most American 12's in the same way I view a pair of the old LL Bean boots: not perfect for any specific purpose, but functional for just about everything. And while there are plenty of 12ga Brit game guns in the 6 1/4-6 3/4# range, finding one much lighter than that takes a fair amount of looking. But it takes a whole lot more looking to find an American 12 that goes mid-6#--which is why the 16 found (and still finds) favor with those who are looking for a gun for upland game.

Well, that was interesting, Joe I asssume that in the UK the 2 1/2" 28 ga shells are available?
I'd love to have a Webley 728. I would pay more for that that a 12 ga 700
I would not want a 16 ga though.

Mike, you would not need to worry about 2 1/2" shells for a Webley 728. They're new enough to be 2 3/4". I never owned one of those, but I did own a 720 (which was made during the same time period, dating from around 1970), and it had factory 3" chambers. It also weighed in the 5 3/4# range, and I figured anyone who shot a 3" shell in that gun had me in the bravery department. Or perhaps the foolish department.

Mike, you sure will. A 28 bore fetches a 250% to 400% premium over 12 bore.

I saw an unremarkable vintage box lock 28 bore fetch more than $10,000 when the 12 bore of identical make and era was a $1500 gun. Vintage sub gauge guns are rare, 28 being the most desirable, 24 being the least.

Mike I have a nice little Birmy / Salter and Varge 28, made between the wars. 25" barrels, straight stock, ejectors, 5lbs 3oz. I paid about 75% over its equivilent in a 12 bore - $2300. 2-1/2" chambers, proofed for 5/8 oz, service load would be 9/16 oz.

At $2300, you must have also bought it between the wars.

Awww, I shot my mouth off before I checked. I paid $3400 which is about a 160% premium. Then I paid the gunsmith $768 to take the trigger pulls from 7 pounds to 3-1/2 and 4 lbs and to repair a very small chip in the toe and to repair the thumblever spring that broke the first time I took it hunting. But I did win $500 from a fellow on a bet concerning an integral or a separate hinge pin. It was separate and I won. Funny how my gun deals and my school grades get better with time. I bought in December of 2009.

And it weighs 5lbs 1oz.

And I thought John Browning made the 16 popular in the USA

Completely off-topic but some pics of the little English 28. I pinched these off the Cabelas site before I bought it:

Mike, looks like a nice little splinter of a gun. Gil

Was that made by Whistler's grandfather ?

Maybe the case was but the gun is a Salter and Varge.

Pretty serious underbore--like almost .020 under the standard .550--assuming the bores have not been enlarged much since it was proofed as a 31.

As for the popularity of the 16, the A5 didn't appear in Sweet 16 configuration until 1937. By that time, American makers had already produced thousands of domestic 16ga side by sides (over 25,000 from Fox alone, and likely more than that each from Parker, Elsie, and Ithaca--not to mention the hardware store brands). And by that time, most American 16's (except the Elsies) were chambered for 2 3/4" shells, while the prewar Sweeties were still 2 9/16".

Here is a fancier Salter and Varge 28 in the UK for 5,000 Pounds.

http://www.gunstar.co.uk/Shotgun/Salter-and-Varge-gun-for-sale-gs55953.aspx

Drop points, full coverage engraving, 28" barrels, ejectors, 5lbs 3oz