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Good morning all I recently purchases a Francotte double it has a set of 12 gauge barrels and a set of 45-90 barrels. the receiver has A. Francotte Maker Patentee London the barrels say Von Lengerke Detmold U.S. Agents New York the flat on barrels say Francottes chokebore. I will supply pictures latter today.

Thanks Kurt
Posted By: skeettx Re: Francotte double identification help - 10/05/14 07:25 PM
Kurt
Welcome to the site
Am looking forward to the pictures
Please include proof markings if possible
Like this

Mike

p.s. fun reading see here

http://www.doublegunshop.com/dgsnos2.htm

and

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20francotte/a%20francotte%20gb.htm
Posted By: Franc Otte Re: Francotte double identification help - 10/06/14 12:04 AM
thats sounds interesting mate, yes throw up some good clear pics,,
franc
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Francotte double identification help - 10/06/14 12:11 AM
Since it's a VL&D import, Griffin & Howe likely has the records. Contact Bob Beach. They're a great resource for guns imported by VL&D and Abercrombie & Fitch. They'll give you basic information for free, and a whole lot of interesting detail on who ordered it for a nominal fee.




















[img]http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag315/krtyancey/20141005_181553_zpsa3197452.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag315/krtyancey/20141005_181456_zpsc3c4a47f.jpg[/img]








Posted By: ellenbr Re: Francotte double identification help - 10/06/14 02:57 PM
It appears to be a Francotte on the A&D Body Action of 1884/1885.
A&D Body Action U.S. of A. patent 172943 or 1876
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US172943.pdf

A&D Body Action U.S. of A. patent 327914 of 1885/British Patent 4292 of 1884
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US305264.pdf

But I wonder if Francotte had his own variation on the A&D Body Action and possibly if the date is 1892??? Also not that the patent stamp on the standing breech is inverted. I'm confident that August Francotte was Charles Daly's A&D satellite stamping station.


A. Francotte Patent encircling 1892

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Posted By: skeettx Re: Francotte double identification help - 10/06/14 06:25 PM
Fun reading
http://www.shotguns.se/html/belgium.html

How do you know the rifle barrels are 45-90?
The rifle barrels have 45-90 stamped on the top rib, I am assuming the rifle barrels were built latter as they are sleeved shotgun barrels and have zero proof marks on them anywhere.

The watertable shows a X with a star above it, that leads me to believe that the gun was built between 37 and 64, if that is the case I cant believe it is not nitro proofed along with the lack of proof marks. I have been scouring the internet looking at pictures and I can not find another Francotte gun that looks the same.

thanks for the help, great information.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Francotte double identification help - 10/06/14 07:09 PM
I think it was built in 1892 just before the enhanced proof of 1893.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
do you have any idea what model it is, or any information about it at all I have not been able to find anything like it yet.

thanks Kurt
Posted By: skeettx Re: Francotte double identification help - 10/06/14 07:23 PM
SN 21050

Looks like a Medium Grade in 1892

http://www.doublegunshop.com/dgsnos2.htm

This data lists serial number cut-offs for the 1899 threshold.
Francotte (Auguste Francotte & Co.) shotguns -
Best grade: serial # below 16310
Medium grade: serial # below 29614
Bottom grade: serial # below 305769
http://www.empirearms.com/pre-1899.htm

LOTS of Fun reading
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=296334
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Francotte double identification help - 10/06/14 07:36 PM
Might take a tic or two but below is a similar one, although with sideplates, close serial number and same time period:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Francot...613D5A0C4325843

Search for an A. Francotte with intercepting sears.

Images are gone, but more than likely a similar one here with close serial number on this thread:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=333134&page=1

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
thanks for the info, knowing its 122 years old I think it will get cleaned up and put away, another question is the right hand ejector goes every time you open the gun weather that barrel was shot or not, any ideas?
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Francotte double identification help - 10/06/14 08:07 PM
Below is Mr. Beach's ID of the one in the above thread:

"Von Lengerke & Detmold began to import Francotte shotguns in 1889. You can find a brief history and a list of the models available through the years on my post in the FAQ section.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=229207#Post229207

The shotgun in the original post appears to be a Quality "I" (not to be confused with the Grade No. 1). The characteristics include: light weight, Anson & Deeley action, Treble-Fast locking system (Purdey-type double under-lugs, an exposed Greener cross-bolt through a parallel rib extension), and intercepting sears. Most of the catalogs of the period describe this model as an ejector gun but my notes indicate that it was also made as an extractor gun as well. Right now I cannot locate the source of this except for the general statement in the 1896 VL&D catalog (page 12) which says that the lightweight models were available "both with and without automatic ejectors". As the basic lightweight model, the Quality "I" was likely the one to be most readily available as a non-ejector gun. One thing that appears certain is that the features of the particular models were not hard and fast. Just as with gun manufacturers today, models were changed as necessary to meet a price point or incorporate some improvement in appearance or function.

The serial number 20169 is too early to be recorded in our No. 1 VL&D ledger which was created in 1900 but a VL&D advertisement published in 1894 lists several Francottes that were being offered at reduced prices. Serial numbers 204xx, 206xx, 208xx are listed there along with 223xx. This suggests that the OP's gun, number 20169, was likely made between 1889 and 1894 but exactly what year I am uncertain."
Posted By: Franc Otte Re: Francotte double identification help - 10/06/14 08:56 PM
looks pretty nice, shame the rifle bbls are not factory though.
It looks like the firing pins have bushings, but no wee holes for the removing tool?.The breech face seems to have been , kinda refinished, looks abit scratchy n shiny.
In the fourth pic, is that just a gouge in the hinge pin circle,going out from the middle to 3 o clock?
good luck with it,
cheers
franc
the pins are bushed with press in disks it looks like to me. as for the breach that is the way I received the gun the scratches are very small and will not take much to clean up. last in the fourth picture you can just barly see the out line of a lock screw were the gouge bends down
I purchased it to be a usable shotgun and rifle is it safe to shoot and use?
Posted By: Franc Otte Re: Francotte double identification help - 10/07/14 04:37 AM
Have you had the shotgun bbls looked at by someone who knows old sxs's..for wall thickness & such?..if they are good to go, & she is tight...then sure....with appropriate loads.
Same for the Rifle bbls,wanna get them looked at for sure.
I know even less about rifles..is that Caliber a black powder job?...I'll have to google it,lol.
But pay to get the whole lot checked by someone good, unless you know your stuff.
Do you reload ?
Where are you located?...there might be a good smith near you.
Good luck with her,cheers
franc
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Francotte double identification help - 10/07/14 10:53 AM
The .45-90 originated as a sort of black powder express. The case length of the .45-70 was extended to hold more powder but original loads came with 300 grain bullets rather than the 405 or 500 of the .45-70. It normally utilized a slower twist rate also so may not stabilize the heavier bullets. The term Express does not seem to have been used much in the US is why I aid "Sort Of", but the concept is the same, IE a heavier powder charge behind a lighter bullet.
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