http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=502309176

never have been able to see the value in these high priced english guns...its a nice looking gun, but is it really worth over 13 grand?

and you never will

He is asking too much. I understand barrel realignment is expensive, yes?

jager: disregarding the barrel issue, what is the value here?

Some could ask the same about your overpriced junk that you peddle. But then again, you sell on reserve so we will never know what it will exactly take to buy something from you.

What are you doing creeping back up here Ed? Go back down below and continue posting with the rest of the children. In an attempt to ruin the board for good from the bottom up.

On the afternoon of the 26th we will know what the market thinks it is worth. When it comes down to it a price is a guess. Guess to high and it won't sell. Guess to low and you leave money on the table. If I was putting it on my table I would guess $6250 and see where it went( If good BWT, no issues and in proof, I may change my guess one way or the other with the gun in hand)

It is a London sidelock ejector, ed. Watsons is still in business, call Michael D. and get a price on a new one.
13 large will look pretty good by comparison.
You know anything about proof, ed? Seller is calling the chambers 2 3/4" but, the worshipful aren't. And, didn't.
If you don't know who the worshipful are, you might be in a bit over your head.

Best,
Ted

The price is , well, Elementary my dear Ed
cheers
franc

Wonder what happened to #2 ?
Best,
Craig

Something not right about the proof marks IMO. Its posted as 2&3/4" but only marked as 2&1/2" . OK has two London marks on the action but the marks on the barrel don't add up . It has long been rumoured that there are fake poof stamps in the US and I would want a closer inspection .
There is no proof pressure and even if reproofed between 1950 when decimal bore size superseded previous bore markings and the 1954 rules I would have expected to see a reproof stamp .

Is it the that the pictures are too close or is something wrong with the finish? I.e. Someone cleaned it with steel wool?

-

With vintage English double shotguns it is different or difficult. To be worth a lot Ole' Betsy has to be in proof, have right name on barrel rib and or side of action, large "Ghostie Spirit", plus be from company with old ledgers full of well known clients. The facts that gun is high grade and from maker with London address are not enough. As an Englishman way say the struggle is the glory. Quite remarkably member of this forum has workable formula giving us pretty good estimates on value of old English shotguns.

Asking and getting are not the same. Seller does give good details in his limited description. Might want to explain the 2 3/4" chambers on a gun proofed for 2 1/2". I am afraid a lot of good guns have been taken out of proof just to satisfy our "need" for shooting easier to find ammo. Not so much now days as in the past. Shame, that alone tells me it is out of proof and needs in person evaluation before any bid, at any amount, should be made.

you guys are missing the point here...the watson is only a typical example of an extraordinarily high priced english side lock gon...weather the name on the gun is watson, lang, hussey, etc...where is the value in any of them...compare english made guns with continental made guns, which often are valued at half or less of their english made counterpart...are the english guns twice as good? and if so, zacky how?

Ed, go handle some English guns, then handle the continental guns. Then, you might be able to tell. For example, handle a Holland and Holland Royal Deluxe, then handle a Spanish gun. It takes some practice and experience to appreciate quality, but you might be able perceive a difference. There is a reason English best guns are expensive and better and it's called QUALITY.

buzz: have handled quite a few european made guns over the last thirty or so years...most are relatively light weight and well balanced...regardless of where made.

and to compare a specific brand english made gun to spanish guns in general is not helpful to answering the question...

can you define the qualities that cause a gun to be valued at say, $7500 vs another gun with similar features to be valued at say $15,000? i cannot.

Well Ed, there are some continental guns that are on par with English guns, and some people think they are even better. For example, Fabbri and Bertuzzi. However, they cost just as much, if not more. It's all about quality, which involves fit, finish, balance, quality of materials utilized and craft. Surely, you understand that???

please compare and contrast these two...

why is one nine grand and the other one is $35,000 a do las?

http://www.gunsamerica.com/903749114/PERUGINI-VISINI-MODEL-Compettion-side-lock-12Ga.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/988786288/PURDEY-BEST-SIDE-LOCK-12G.htm

Are Watson Bros a "top" London maker ? Personally I say no . Yes they made some nice guns but so did a lot of others and in its day this would have been a nice gun . But have a close look , the pins are a bit chewed up , the wood appears below the metal on the lock plates and there is no picture of the points and I would hazard a guess the checkering has been recut . Looking at the photo of the barrels from the muzzle I have issues with the ribs .Have close look at the photo of the barrels showing the name , is it just me or dose it look like blacked Damascus?
I think this is a gun that needs close scrutiny before any bidding .
I will leave questions to its true value to others .

buzz: "It's all about quality, which involves fit, finish, balance, quality of materials utilized and craft. Surely, you understand that???

of course, but what else could it be about, except perhaps vanity?

so, again, what makes one gun worth 9 grand the other 35?

gunman...watson, smotson...this aint bout a specific gon or maker...

hits about why are english made guns so highly priced in comparison to non english made guns with similar features and apparent quality?

They became high priced because people pay silly money for them and dealers/sellers ask top dollar because people will pay silly money for them .Same as with cars, watches, art work, and celebrity memorabilia .People will buy and once the price is set it don't go down !

Ed, until you take up a file, a hacksaw, and a hand drill and produce something artistically appealing and also perfectly functional you will never understand. In this age of heartless mass production, though the products are functional, they lack what many of us seek--the heart and soul of a craftsman. Does a hand made product necessarily shoot better than an off the shelf gun? I think the answer is usually "no". Why then pay more? If it is only a tool the answer is you probably shouldn't. But if one has an appreciation of human hands producing a more excellent, appealing product than a machine the additional expense seems to be a trifle compared to the sheer pleasure derived from admiring the skills required to achieve it. If I owned an off the shelf Beretta it would stay in the closet until I needed it. But the hand made gun is usually nearby and I never tire of just admiring the skills of a craftsman and perhaps romantically thinking of the times past when things were different.

I'll never belittle the man who chooses the tool over art. The gun was made to perform. But I hope he respects my desire for the art. To each his own.

Ed, what's with the idiot performance?

You know the answer to your stupid question, why are you being such a jackass?

You claim to be a gun peddler, you know the difference between price and value. So why keep on with the stupidity?

In case you can't figure it out, you are accelerating the death of this site.

People far more intelligent, skilled and studied on various double guns than ed have come and gone (mostly, died) and the site has soldiered on. The loss of them hasn't and won't kill it, and ed's contributions, or, lack thereof, won't kill it, either.

Best,
Ted

Ted, when people start witholding content, sites lose their eyeballs.
Look at the change in content offered here today compared to the archives.
People choose where to point their eyeballs.

Really Ed? You are comparing a best quality London sidelock from Purdey to a Turkish built sidelock with Perugini & Visini stamped on it.

The Perugini & Visini you linked to is not a real P&G sidelock... those start around $30K. That is a Turkish built gun... the same gun is avaiable from Dickinson for $4,000 (clearly, P&G's name adds a premium). That Turkish company also builds that sidelock for Webley & Scott (and they used to make it for Kimber and Hatfield).

So if you have to ask what the difference is between the Kimber Valier and a Purdey Best game gun, then you have a long ways to go. In every regard, the Purdey is a superior gun... not that the Turkish gun is junk... it isnt... but its not a Purdey. Hold them and you'll see.

I have only held a Purdey once in my life. Somehow, likely by mistake they let me in the locked door at the top of three flites of stairs and into the "good gun room" (an entire story) of Kevin's in nearby Thomasville, GA. I'd just wrapped up a case in Thomas Superior Court and had on my good suit; must have fooled'em with good looks?

While terrified that I might drop it or something, the "feel" came through in full force. They didn't invite me to take it down and inspect, but from the way the wood simply transformed into the steel without a seam and the flawless finish I got the point.

No, they are not the same as a tarted up Turkish P&V...Geo

I wondered what all the hooplah over English bests was about too, until I was offered the chance to shoot Bob Matthews' Purdey after a S x S shoot several years ago. Now I know.

I had already won the shoot with my BSS, but I'm telling you, that Purdey felt like a part of me. It was magical.

SRH

Watson Bros also pioneered focusing an smallbores. As I understand it, the "best" quality 12 market was soft, and they started focusing on "best" quality smallbores.
If you handle a Purdey and Watson Bros. smallbore one after the other, and work their mechanicals, you'll have a preference.

the gunman from england comment makes since to me:

"They became high priced because people pay silly money for them and dealers/sellers ask top dollar because people will pay silly money for them .Same as with cars, watches, art work, and celebrity memorabilia .People will buy and once the price is set it don't go down !

but, then stan's comment about magic makes since too...what price does one put on magic? i am shooting skeet these days with a magic ithaca...to me it is priceless.

and, how much does ego and vanity affect pricing of most high priced merchandise?

I quite agree that a well made SLE which fits you is a magical thing that once properly experienced. I further agree with Buzz that that experience can be had with other than a big name London Best gun

In fact a good value in British guns can be found in guns by second tier makers like Watson Brothers on a 12 bore. Gun like these are individuals and the variables are immense. Looking at this particular listing and the pictures provided make me think the following:

1. The challenge of the internet is a lack of physical inspection. But inspection periods mitagate a little.

2. Just because the seller says 2 3/4 does not mean he is right that the chambers are either lengthened over a shorter original length. I have on more than one occasion seen guns that are both still short chambered and the seller was wrongly saying 2 3/4. I know this as i went to their shops measured the chambers and explained to the disbelieving clerk thhey were wrong. One at Cabelas in KC even tried to explain to me those 21/2 in guns were in Europe only. I guess Greeners magically transform crossing the Atlantic. Many gunbroker sellers do not know what they are talking about.


3. Beautiful and prefect bores are rare in old guns, not impossible, but unusual in guns with the external wear that particular gun has. This along with look of the finish on the receiver and locks makes me really want to know wall thickness. The fact it weighs out at 6lbs 9.5 oz does give a little comfort, but the rubber pad, most likely added later is part of that weight. The seller does provide a three day inspection period so at least you might be covered there.

4. I go back to my earler posted question, do those locks look scrub up with steel wool or something?

5. Even through the buy it now shows 13.5 that may not be the actual reserve. In all things guns, prices are often very elastic. Recently I purchased a 20ga SLE foe 12k when the early on price was 15.9 then later 13.5.

Lastly on value, one always ask to ask the question in terms of what is it worth to me? I hold that all guns are to some extent rented, not brought. Few of us make actual money in gun speculation. In speculation most gun profit if any is made on purchase price alone. If buying an investment, this Watson may not be worth the bother, if buying to shoot it maybe worth exploring further.

Gentlemen;

The Watson Bros. gun in discussion here is a Birmingham made second quality with dovetail barrels made in 1901. and has been reproofed and the butt stock has been replaced. With the top rib engraving still in near original condition it appears that the barrels have not or maybe only once been re-blacked. To my eye and mind it was likely made by "The Midland" for Watson's. The Midland was making superb best and second quality London pattern SLE's at that time and on up unto WWI.

Also to my mind with the down turn of demand for such guns in America, the real value of this gun is no more than $5,000.00: while 10 years ago in America it was worth several thousand more.

Ed will just continue to ask the same dumb question over and over regardless of the responses he gets. Because he is a troll and that is his MO.

dudley: ah was tryin to be nice and jest ignore you... however, you must be reminded: this forum is supposed to have rules agin your kind...so please do refrain from trashin threads here and control yo self...

an if you wana joust, then meet me down below...an ah will sharpin mah nives and be ready an waitin fur ya...

Stan, thanks for reminding us that those of us who shoot cheap guns win a lot of shoots, at least events at shoots. On the other hand, I also like nice second tier British guns and own a pair. I also own other English guns, but they are not 12 gauge and they aren't second tier. The reason no one should touch this Watson is that one barrel has been hogged out to .740. It doesn't matter that it is in proof, it is hogged out and probably marginal in wall thickness. The engraving is astounding, if not buffed over, and the stock is beautiful, if not restocked. Regardless of what American shotgunners say, a refinished, bored out, restocked, and whatever British gun is not accepted by buyers as proper goods at big prices. It is a refinished, bored out, restocked, and whatever gun that should be priced as such. I will not price the Watson Brothers, but will not buy it. British guns in high original condition should be priced high and should sell at high prices. Lesser guns should be priced accordingly. A serious buyer should search for the best guns and let the other ones languish on the internet sites.

there appears to be reading comprehension issues here...

but, i will try again...please compare these two, if you will:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100500904


http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100517336

"Regardless of what American shotgunners say, a refinished, bored out, restocked, and whatever British gun is not accepted by buyers as proper goods at big prices. It is a refinished, bored out, restocked, and whatever gun that should be priced as such..."

i tend to agree...so why is the redone purdey referenced above worth $35 grand?

Bushveld, I am not sure of your opinion of the source of the Watson, but I'm not arguing the Birmingham source. Of course, a second tier maker is sourcing their actions and other parts from Birmingham. The pictures of this Watson gun don't make clear whether the action is a Scott rising lock or whatever they call it. (The correct terminology is the "Webley Screw Grip"). My 1911 Evans pair has that action and as far as I am concerned, it is the greatest little action I have ever seen. I can't see how it could ever get loose. British guns of second tier are available for sale, but the buyer must know his guns.

Ok, you boys wana take watson?

then go aheard...i mean you gonna do hit any how...

Ed, I don't know what your obsession is with wanting me to "come down below" with you. ? I take it you mean the the embarrassment of the board that is Misfires?
Quite frankly I don't and time to entertain that BS and I don't know why you would want just one more person down there ganging up on you.
However I really am curious as to what it is you would be able to say to me there that you cannot say to me here. That I am an a**hole? That my mother is fat? That my wife is ugly? Huh???

dudley: my problem with you is that you come here and post off topic personal attacks...then you continue to ignore forum rules by posting more off topic personal attacks...you appear to have little respect for this forum or those who post here...it is as simple as that. or maybe it is not that simple for you...

The problem is evident in the posts that compare the VISUAL aspects of doubles and can only see the formal specs. Wihout a feel of the handling, balance and sheer pleasure in manipulation and use there really is no point talking.

Once you experience that feel of a true best (as opposed to a big name, the two do not always go together) you can justify the cost. Not any cost, mind you. Some of today's London guns are ridiculously priced.

lover: that makes since.

Late to the party. My take is as follows.

Watson is a Brand Value level two (BV2) maker. The gun appears to me to be no more than an Original Quality grade two (OQ2). The Current Condition level seems to be six (CC6 is defined as "Shootable but needs some repairs and refinishing or refinished with barrels or stock replaced").

BV2-OQ2-CC6 = $4,652. The only upgrade I could see at all would be to call it a CC5 = "Minor repairs needed or proper restoration accomplished." Personally, I think CC6 fits better than CC5. BV2-OQ2-CC6 = $6,312. In pristine condition (CC1) it would value at $21,000 and in "Significant use" (CC3) condition it would value at $11,000. So, we have a fairly valuable gun being dinged by condition.

I will opine the following as to the relation of quality and value. For lower quality goods up to average consumer quality, the relation is relative linear (twice as good - twice the price). However, as quality goes over, say, 90% of possible, the price becomes very non-linear; 95% costs several times 90%, and 98% costs several times 95%. Consider paintings, wine, musical instruments, cars, shoes, etc.

DDA

The influence of brand value can be a loss maker. A concrete example comes from non gun items sold by top London gunmakers, such as knives, snap caps, thermos flasks etc. The exact same item with the name stamp can cost as high as tenfold the price of the plain unstamped item.

If the brand value follows similar percentages on guns, then the message for USERS not collectors or status seekers is ovious, avoid top brands like the plague!

The trick here is to be able to discern quality work. And also bear in mind that the same people often worked as outworkers for several makers so their work might well be present on the "lesser" gun.

A no name sidelock put together by top actioners, stockers, with locks signed "Ashes", case hardened by St Ledgers, at a price reflecting its no name status would do me nicely. But I do not want to impress anyone and do not expect to sell it at a profit. I am OK trusting my capital to guys like Buffet, not Purdey.

makes sense...or is it sents or cents or scents...

Ed apparently does not have a very good memory Brian. Here are some posts he made yesterday a scant 8 minutes before initiating a new thread calling for no name calling and civility... along with my response to him:



Here's another:



Would you like about a hundred more examples of YOUR insults and name calling Ed? Would you like about a hundred examples from your pal, Mr. Civility King Brown?

Is this what you are telling us Ed... "Do as I say... and not as I do."?

In the words of the ignorant idiot anti-gunner Ed Good... "Ah don tink so!"

Ed and King and Jagermeister are apparently engaged in a concerted effort to temporarily leave Misfires, and to attempt to re-invent themselves as real gun guys here after months of posting anti-gun, anti-2nd Amendment, and anti-NRA rhetoric in Misfires. Here's what Ed has been up to:

ANTI-GUN POSTS by ED GOOD

It looks like you may be stuck with them for a while until they think they have pulled the wool over enough eyes here. You have my sympathy. I have every expectation that there will be guys like dal and CrapperZapper who will wish to defend them and shoot the messenger. I'm OK with that. It's too bad that there were not enough guys who would make a Pledge to AmarilloMike's "Pledge Drive to Permanently Ban Ed Good." I pledged $100.00 and am still willing to write that check.