Hi Guys,

I recently purchased a Charles Daly branded, 3-barrel drilling serial # 328xx.

While I know this firearm came out of an estate sale in Texas, other than the fact that this gun was originally imported by Schoverling, Daly & Gales Firearms company I know very little about the history of this specific firearm.

From what I have gathered here and elsewhere I believe this gun was most likely produced by J.P. Sauer in the late 1800’s.

The top barrels are 12ga with the left barrel choked modified and the right barrel choked full.

As far as the rifle barrel is concerned I believe most of these guns usually carried 38-55 barrels. However, the individual that I purchased this firearm from stated that he “had the barrel "slugged" by a gunsmith and the caliber he came up with was slightly larger than 38-55”…?

I would appreciate any info anyone could provide on this gun. Specifically, who may have produced it, what year it may have been produced, what is the general value of these guns, and any other info that may be relevant.

I thank everyone for there input in advance, and would be happy to post any additional info or pictures upon request.

JRH

That is a beautiful gun. Your Daly "Three barrel Gun" (Drilling) is technically a model 105. The model 105 retailed for $75 in 1899. The hammelress variety went for $200 at the same time.

Every Daly drilling I have ever encountered has been a Sauer gun - others may have also produced drillings for SD&G, but I have never seen one.

Looking through a few period SD&G catalogs I see that, depending on the year, the gun was offered in a choice of calibers including "32 and 38 W.C.F", "38/55", "30-30". It was also offer in 45/70 with 10 gauge tubes.

Enjoy your new gun.

Ken

Thanks Ken,

As I am sure you know the 38 W.C.F is also known as the 38-40. So it seems that the most likely chambering for this gun is either the 38-40 or the 38-55. In both case the second portion of the caliber name refers only to the amount of grains of black powder original used in the loads. However despite the fact that both names start with a "38" neither is actually a .38 caliber bullet.

The .38-40 uses a .401 bullet...
The .38-55 uses a .375 bullet...

Given these two facts, if I can get a hold of the gunsmith that originally slugged the barrel hopefully he can tell what he came up with and it will turn out to be .401.

Given the facts above, have seen any similar models sell lately, and what do they usually go for?

Once again, thanks for your help...

JRH

My Sauer drilling is almost identical to yours (side lever to open, top lever to select rifle), has a barrel that I have not slugged but it seems to be somewhere from 41 to 43. I shoot 2 1/2" .410 shot shells in the rifle barrel. They fit like a glove. Does a 2 1/2" .410 shell fit in yours? No one I have talked to suggests a 38-40 but in a Daly marked example, I would think that was a good guess. Mine is not Daly marked so I suspect it is a European metric caliber.

I looked at the same model drilling this weekend in Duluth,it was a 16 bore with(I'm assuming) a metric rifle chambering.
They were asking 3K for it,I guess that included the red rust in the shot bores,I walked away.

R. Glenz

I know what you are talking about...There is currently another C. Daly that is identical, but in much poorer condition than mine, being offered on GunsAmerica for 4k$.

Obviously, I know that the honest value of these guns is not that high. That is why I posted here in hopes that some of the members may have seen these guns actually changing hands over the past year or two.

The difficulty in valuing these guns is their relative obscurity means it is very difficult to find records of their recent sale prices. That leaves me trying to compare the features of this gun to other drillings that are currently changing hands more regularly. Unfortunately, this gun has enough unique features that I find even that approach rather difficult.

In the end, I always enjoy researching these and other guns so any infomation I can locate is always very much appreciated...

Regards,
JRH

My Sauer, identical to the pictured gun except for the sighting (mine has a folding rib sight rather than a tang sight) and a 1905 serial number, was sold to me by a close friend. The price is/was off the scale on the low side. Mine has a screaming piece of English and a nice thick horn butt, but nowhere near the wood quality of the pictured gun. It is choked about .015 and .025, so is an ideal all purpose bird gun, especially with the load of 7 1/2 in the .410 shell in the bottom barrel. When it came to me, things were just a little brown, but now it is cleaned up nicely and has no mechanical problems at all. It is among my favorite German guns.

Eightbore,

How did you determine the serial # date? Also, do you happen to know if the Sauer serial #'s ran consecutively with the Daly models or were they a completely seperate sequence?

JRH

Jeff Stephens' articles in the Double Gun Journal took the mystery out of Sauer serial numbers. My number is 118,000 series, as I recall, and doesn't seem to be in sequence with your gun, but I haven't checked on Jeff's chart. Ken Georgi would have the answer to your question, I think.

Eight,

Thanks for the suggestion...I have been meaning to drop Ken a line. I just wanted to try gather as much general information here as possible before asking him about any specifics.

Earlier you also mentioned that your gun had folding rear sight but no peep...I am not sure if you could tell from my pictures but mine has both a folding site and a peep. In other words mine is exactly like yours but has one added feature.

I believe small features such as the peep is what distinguished the grades within specific models. While mine certainly does not seem to be much above a field grade, based on the presence of the peep, I am sure it was not the lowest grade.

Based on what I have seen it seems the presence of a "trap" on these guns is what marks the next level above our guns in terms of hardware.....

JC

I just received a complimentary issue from Under Wild Skies that features a SD&G drilling nearly identical to this that featured the folding rear sight.

Maybe someone would post the DGJ issue that included the Jeff Stephens serial number chart.

JRH,

There are an even dozen Daly drillings captured in the Daly/Lindner database. These dozen encompass both hammer and hammerless varieties in mulitple calibers and gauges The lowest serial number recorded thus far is in the 29,000 range, and the highest is just north of 167,000.

I have be honest that I have not done much noodling to determine see how these Sauer-made Dalys match up to the Sauer serial number guide Jeff put together. My first instinct is that the range is far too broad to be purely sequential and there seemed to be some inconsistencies with serial numbers and features noted on the gun that would help date them - i.e, the guns do not appear to be in a simple sequential order. (But hey, these are Dalys - the serial numbering sequence is supposed to be a mess! :-)

I'm on travel and away from my catalogs and other research material, but I'll do some digging and check the Sauer serial number and see if, or what portion, of the Daly drilling serail numbers appear to jive with the Sauer numbers.

Best,
Ken

Hey Guys,

While I have been working on a number of project guns this spring I am still focused on learning more about this gun, and ultimately determining whether I can safely shoot it, and with what ammo.

Along those lines I have started off by determining the rifle caliber possibilities given that I know three things as fact 1). Presumably this gun is a 38-55. 2) This model was known to be made in the following calibers with 12 ga barrels,( 30-30 (.30 caliber bullet), 32WCF (.312 caliber bullet) and 38-55 (.375 caliber bullet) and 38 WCF (.401 caliber bullet)), and 3) The chamber was cast by a gunsmith that stated it was a .375-.400 caliber.

Based on these facts, and given the specifics of chamber lengths, caliber, and cartridge shape, I can safely state that, out the cartridges known to have been chambered for these guns, the 38-55 is in fact the only cartridge that could fit this this guns specific chamber/barrel lengths and shapes.

Now that I believe that I have the rifle chamber issue solved. I am interested in determining two additional important points.

1). Can anyone tell me the original chamber lengths for these guns?

2). Obviously, before I shoot anything from this gun I am going to have it inspected by a gunsmith. My question is, can anyone recommend a competent gunsmith, (preferably one that is familiar with these guns and located in the northeast). Finally, what should I expect to pay for an inspection.

Once again I thank everyone for any responses in advance.

JRH

Here are some more recent pics taken after the I cleaned up the gun a bit...

JRH before you go and assume that it is a 38-55, please have someone do a chamber cast that can tell you exactly what it is. Its your body parts but I'd never shoot a rifle on a calculated guess as to the caliber. I have the same problem at the moment. I believe mine is a .450 3 1/4". But I need to get a better chamber cast to make sure.

Thanks Mike,

As you can see I clearly stated above....1)The chamber was already cast once, and proven to be .375 or slightly larger 2)"before I shoot anything from this gun I am going to have it inspected by a gunsmith"

Don't be offended but there is a lot of cartridges that fit the .375 to .400 range. You are most likely correct in believing that it is a 38-55. I just didn't want you to bet your fingers on it. Good luck.

As an aside...

For anyone that might be interested in purchasing one of these guns...I see that this auction house will be offering two oCharles Daly/J.P. Sauer drillings in the 12ga x 38-55 combination on their next auction date. (note: I have no affiliations with this auction.)

http://www.switzersauction.com/index.html

JRH,

Very nice drilling.

Doing a CHAMBER cast is very easy if you want to do one yourself. Order some Cerrosafe from Brownells and follow the instructions.

It does not sound like the gunsmith did a CAST it sounds like he SLUGGED the bore. I am surprised that he gave you such a broad range of bore diameter. Once slugged (also very easy to do yourself) you can measure the slug with calipers and usually tell exactly what the bore diameter is to thousandths of an inch.

Bore diameter is NOT the right way to determine the caliber the gun is CHAMBERED for. My double rifle is an Austrian .450x3 1/4" BPE. When I slugged the barrel I found it was .452" instead of the nominal .458 for most of these rifles. In my case the bore being undersized was a good thing as it allows me to use lead bullets sold just about everywhere for the Casull and Colt pistols.

I wrote the above to show that you need to do some more research/investigation before you attempt to shoot the rifle barrel. Don't take this wrong, I don't want to see your fingers separated from your hand.

BTW, any drilling with 12ga barrels is better IMO. More marketability if you need to sell it and MANY more loads available. Also if the proofs and gunsmith examination show that you need to stick to low pressure loads in the shot barrels you will find much more low pressure data available if you handload.

German Rifled bbls were often marked for the "Bore" size by gauge in this era. Is there a mark such as 99.7 or 91.83 etc on the rifle bbl? These were as best as I can determine only checked to the largest plug which would enter in .010" increments, so are not really very accurate, but can tell some. A larger plug would enter a .38-40 than a .38-55. I believe that bullet dia for original .38-55's normally ran about .378" rather than .375" though.

Thanks for the info Utah...

I appreciate it and I am hopeful that I will get everything inspected and in order soon...

JRH

Old .38-55s were really .38s. However, modern .38s are really .375s. This difference causes fits with folks that buy single shots from the 19th century, but that's the way it is. So, your friend may have seen it as a bit bigger than a modern .38 which could be exactly right for a vintage 38.

Also, the modern .38-55 uses shorter brass than the original. There are a few sources (maybe only 2) of .38-55 brass in original length if you need it.

My guess is that you have a vintage .38-55 and your friend was expecting a .38-55 with modern dimensions.

The ASSRA forums are a good place for info on this if you pursue it.

Brent

Piper,

The pictures below show all of the barrel/water table marks. While I know what many of them mean I am sure of all. Any info on the stamps, especially those that are not standard proofs would be appreciated. (BTW, can can anyone confirm that the stamp that looks like a S&S on the water table is the Sauer and Sons house mark?)

JRH

Brent,

That is very good to know. Once I determine for sure this is a 38-55 or not I will looking to the chamber dimension further.

JRH

I had a Westley Richards double rifle in some knuckle-headed .360 No3 case express(raj out of India-Simon said) chambering. It was way too much to get the thing right. You may find the same thing, after the newness wears off.

Lowell,

I knew, generally speaking, what I was getting myself into when I purchased this gun. Fortunately, this is a bit of a hobby for me. To date the only cost I have in the gun is the original purchase price and I am happy to say that I have just watched a virtually identical gun sell at auction for twice what I paid for this gun.

My current plan is to continue to pursue shooting this gun until I find that it physically or economically unreasonable to do so. Should I find that the gun can not meet my desire I will at the very least have gained a good deal of valuable knowledge in the process. In addition, the ability to provide detailed information about the history and physical condition of the gun will add value to the resale price should I decide to part ways with this gun in the future....Either way it seems a win/win situation in my mind...

As always, I greatly appreciate the input I am receiving here as it is already contributing enormously to my knowledge of this fine old guns...

Regards,
Jeffrey Herrmann

Nice old gun.

The "SHUF" marks on the shotgun barrels are a mystery to me; possibly barrel mfg. marks. The crown with the S&S, is the early Sauer proof mark. The "caveman with the club" is the Sauer trademark. My favorite is the little scripted "g" on the watertable near the breech face; that's the mark of the craftsman at the factorty who finished the action. If the stock has not been refinished, you should find a similar but different initial on the buttstock-nestled-in where the pistolgrip and the underline of the stock coming from the toe intersect; that will be the stockers mark.

It would be fun to know who those people were, Sauer had some of the best. Good shooting.

JRH, Nice Sauer Daly drilling and by the sounds of it you did well on its purchase price. By the Serial number, your Drilling was produced around 1886-1887 or so.

When you have the time and make a chamber cast the 38-55 measures out with a .560 rim diameter, .421 base diameter, .392 neck diameter with a overall length of 2.084. It is a straight tapered non-bottlenecked case. Also, rim thickness is listed as .0625. Also and for your infomation the 38-40 cartridge chambering is completly different than that noted above. The 38-40 is a bottle necked case and much shorter in OAL.

Eightbore, in regards to your Sauer drilling and its possible chambering (emphisis on possible here!) it may chambered in the 11,15 x 65R Noted measuerements are as follows: Rim diameter of .518, Head diameter of .472, neck diameter of .467 OAL of 2.559 with a rim thickness of .472. More than anyone wanted to know(!) but it may be useful for future reference.

Jeff Stephens

When a hobby becomes too tedious, it becomes a pain in the neck.
I spent one year trying to get the barrel measured, custom brass, custom bullets made and so forth and so on - for a scad of money noless.
I passed the rifle on to one with a bit of the hobby in him for a not-so-homely sum of cash.
A rare little raj rifle for his guests to shoot....some kind of horned game.

Utah,

You are correct. I went back and checked, and in fact the description stated..."We had the barrel "slugged" by a gunsmith..."

JRH

Great info J,

Alright guys here is what we have here so far: The gun is a model 105, "Three Barrel Gun", made by J.P. Sauer for import to the U.S. by Schoverling and Daly of Manhattan N.Y. The gun was finished in the factory by an armorer with the identification "G" and was produced in approximately 1886-1887. The shotgun barrels are "Fine Damascus" 12ga barrels, while the rifle barrel is steel and most likely 38-55 caliber.

What I do not know as of yet: 1)What were the original chamber dimensions for the 12ga barrels. 2)Is the rifle barrel definitely 38-55, and if so what are the exact case dimensions. 3)What do the "SHUF" barrel markings represent. 4)What do the two "C circling R" barrel stamps represent. 5)Where might I find a competent gunsmith that can inspect the safety aspects of this firearm...

I must say...I am pleasantly surprised at the progress that has been made in such a short time identifying the different aspects of this gun. With a little good luck I foresee more great developments to come...

JRH

Interesting facts concerning the....The Schoverling and Daly...Charles H Ballard…and J.P.Sauer and Sons.. 38-55 connection...

JRH

JRH;
Upon further examination of the size marks I was speaking of, I believe they are not present on this gun. Reason is Germany's proof law was not enacted until 1891 & this one was built prior to that. Guns which had been completed & ready for sale when the act took affect were stamped with a Crown/V which made them legal to sale under the new law, but were not actually proofed. The gauge mark I spoke of would have been stamped by the proof house. This is found on guns made after 1891, but normally no later than 1912.

JRH,

Check on the American Single Shot Rifle Association forum: http://www.assra.com

The 38-55 is very popular with single shot target folks. It is considered to be very accurate. They have many loads that they will share with you. I believe there has been some discussion there about the bore variations for this cartridge. Also a lot of information about reforming brass, etc.

You drilling looks very nice. Thanks for posting that auction site.

Pete

Those on the auction site look to be clunkers to me.
I once had the drilling fever...glad I got over it.

Jeff, thanks for the dimensions of the 11.15X65 case.

Just in case you need a special case, http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com can make cases from a chamber casting. They are not cheap, but they work quite well.

Brent