Mention of Carbine Williams on Jim's thread reminded me of a question that I always wanted answered: Why did the Model 50 fall out of favour?
I bought the first model with metal barrel in the early 50s, stuck on a Polychoke, and it performed flawlessly with extraordinarily soft recoil, passed it on to my son.
Simple....bad designs don't stand the test of time.
Because of the 1964 Winchester direction change. Even though the 50-59 platform had so many firsts, they bet the farm on the 1400. Even those that get the big bucks aren't right always,, ever?!?
Winchester has had a long and sad history of Fubared autoloaders- bet Old Bennett was kicking himself in the ass for turning down John Browning's great Auto-5 design circa 1903- he was too cheap to pay John a royalty on each one- the rest is history.
Cabelas had a Model 11 for sale- in the lower-tier price level outside the Gun Library here in MI- I finally convinced the Gun Dept mgr. that it was known as "The Widow maker"- and was not a safe design- Then the Model 40 came along pre-WW21. Replaced at a loss to WRA, by a Model 12, as they had many bugs that developed in the field- WRA has always been in a hurry to have a good performing autoloader-such is life.
I have friends who still grouse hunt and like the Model 59- I can't shoot one worth sour owl shit- too damn butt heavy and muzzle light- now a Model 12- that's a whole 'nother ball game.
I hate the swing and handling of the Model 50/59's. To me that alone killed them. Some guns just are an extension of your arm and some are not. I never picked up a 59 that I wanted to shoot and by the time I was buying my first gun the 59 was a dead horse. Heck even the used market was almost zero for them.
The failure to agree with John Browning cost Winchester more than just the A5, which was a huge, but it closed the door to most of John Browning's designs going forward. He had sold them countless designs before, many they never put into production and his A5 design and patent made their attempts to get around his patent very problematic. The Widow maker was one such attempt. In short the failure to grant him a royalty for the A5 cost them millions of dollars and made their rivals much stronger in the end.
Look at it this way. Winchester has a very loyal collector/shooter following who think every thing they every made is worth a premium price. Browning has a equal strong collectors/shooter group. Now if he paid the simple royalty both those groups would be one bigger Winchester group which would dominate. Winchester would have dominated the US gun market for decades and Remington might have stayed the a minor half of the ammo/gun maker group.
Thanks, all hands. I bought mine new, used it two-man provincial skeet competitions but still would have put only three or four thousand rounds through it, competition and afield. It would have had the bad trigger, later anticipated by shooters and reason enough to give it a pass. Question answered; thank you.
Thanks, all hands. I bought mine new, used it two-man provincial skeet competitions but still would have put only three or four thousand rounds through it, competition and afield. It would have had the bad trigger, later anticipated by shooters and reason enough to give it a pass. Question answered; thank you.
What is this bad trigger you speak of? Please elaborate. I acquired a Model 50 a few years ago and gave it to my son. If there's a safety issue I'd like to know!
Steve
The words may not have been appropriate concerning the trigger and the model, rockdoc. See Researcher just above, please. I gave mine to my son, too, and he had no complaints.
Thanks King and Researcher. It looks like an easy fix. I forwarded the information on to my son.
My son liked the gun when he used it in the past and his wife enjoys shooting with him so I figured one or both of them would enjoy shooting it (particularly his wife with the M50's soft recoil).
Steve
I owned a Model 50, and was pleased with it.
My opinion is that its demise was caused by the advent of gas-operated semi-autos, which reduced recoil and were more reliable.
The Model 50 was a neat design, but at the wrong time.
gold40
I didn't know Carbine but met his wife when I lived in Fayetteville. I had friends who knew him well. He was something of a mechanical genius and tinkered steel into highly complex shapes that were costly to cut. That expense was what got Winchester into other designs. I agree with Jim Carmichael that the Model 50 was the most beautiful automatic. It was also the fastest until recent designs surpassed it.
I shot one occasionally and have to agree the rear balance is an acquired taste, but specifically directed at shooting quail. Removing the recoil chamber from the stock and using a slightly longer barrel can work around that problem with custom loads.
My dearest friend who taught me the ways of quail, used a Model 50 like the sword of death. I was never slow, but he could kill three quail in the time I pulled the trigger twice.
Good days, good dogs, and a great gun.
Steve
I own examples of the Winchester Auto Shotguns from the 1911 WSL to the Super-X 1, with the exception of the 1400. The SX-1 in my opinion is the only great Auto Loader Winchester produced. The 50 isn't bad, just different and the similar 59 is great on flushing game, in my opinion.
I have a 12 and 20'Model 50 and I like mine. I have heard rumors that Bennelli and now Berreta had to pay royalties to Winchester for the Montefeltro Bolt, related to the Model 50 floating chamber.
Recoil was so soft that, showing-off holding it one handed like a pistol, I tried to hit clays in the back-40 but not skilled and strong enough to do it.
Winchester and John Browning had a working relationship where Winchester bought all of Browning's designs, whether put into production or not. John Browning wanted to change that relationship with the A5 and Winchester said no. It goes both ways with John Browning not being entirely blameless.
The Benelli action has no similarity or relation to the Win 50 at all.
The Benelli is a modern day Sjogren shotgun. See Butler 'The American Shotgun' pp142.
Too bad the 50 was such a dud. They only sold about 200,000 of them (ibid). That's 6 for every Model 21, and they did that in about 5 years time.
The 59's cracked receivers frequently. The aluminum alloy frames we take for granted today took some development. Eventually engineers figured out how to stress the guns properly by putting steel and recoil buffers where needed on subsequent auto designs, notably the Italians. The 59 was a transition piece.
The 50 was a brilliant design in concept. The actual execution was only fair, but the guns sold well and were well liked.
I still shoot mine regularly.
By the way, the Model 11 was the way it was because Browning owned the patent on the 'operating handle' concept. If the Model 11 design is inherently unsafe is a matter of opinion. You can't fix stupid.
The Patent examiner must have thought the Montefeltro inertia bolt had some relation to Carbine Williams inertia lock, as he cited the Williams patent in the Benelli US patent application.
That was probably the start of the rumor, likely a false one.
I always thought the inertia lock started with the Win 97 and was the major improvement over the 93. JMB at it again.
Inertia is certainly at play in all these mechanisms, the designers harness that principle to provide necessary unlocking delay.
Fascinating subject. Many smart guys.
I bought a Model 50 20 gauge skeet gun with VR from a friend a couple of years ago.
If you like braking targets and don't like recoil, it's a perfect gun.
Although I haven't shot it a great deal, but I've never had any mechanical issues with it.
My friend, who collected Model 50's said that the aluminum receiver guns were good for 15,000 rounds and then the receiver would crack. Mine's steel.
hand made guns went away in 1964. as mentioned, the 1400 was what they banked on to combat the 1100. they lost.
quirks of the m50:
1. the stock bolt would loosen and cause the stock to become loose. recalls were implimented to no avail. some worked, some didnt. issue now is, people own guns made up from parts and dont know of the recalls and what to look for.
2. forearm bolt would crack forearm when gun heated up from use. metal expanded in field from use, shooter retightens bolt. shooter went home, gun cooled in gun cabinet.........metal contracted....crackola.
3. recoil spring needs continuous adjustment to ensure bolt doesnt crack receiver on recoil. spring new is 13". when a spring hits 10", bolt will strike receiver. most people dont even know of this quirk.
4. 20ga m50's do not have replacement springs available. oem or nib 20ga springs are hens teeth. wolfee has 12ga springs.
5. gun needs cleaning after daily use. action can clog up after only 250 rounds.
6. trigger groups were made of alloy. guide holes for pins would wear, misaligning the group in the receiver.
7. there are 3 hammer assy's out there. 1st, modified, and new design. 1st hammer was designed like a m12 and would hang up on second notch causing ad's. recall called for the removal of this notch. by 1956, the new hammers were being installed w/o the notch. again, since this gun design has been parted by so many people, there is no way to track what is done to what gun.
8. an overpowered ejector would toss hulls 25 ft. a recall called for filing it down to reduce throw.
9. the featherweight and proceeding model 59 were flops. receiver cracks spelled doom for the 50-59 lineup. they were glad to get rid of it. owners hated dealing with it. they wanted a simple gun. the model 50 wasnt one.
pros:
1. its a heavy gun. for clay shooting, thats a good thing.
place a m50 receiver next to a m12 and youll see why they call it the semi auto model 12.
2. built like tank.
3. 1st american gun without a recoiling barrel on the receiver. split hairs all you want, but it doesnt recoil and effect your sighting.
4. could be had in numerous grades with the same quality engravings as a model 12 pigeon.
5. last of the best hand done fixed choking from winchester. i never had a gun with a blown pattern or holes.
6. no plastic parts on the gun. ok...(buttplate and red bradley bead.)
7. softest recoiling semi on the market. i'd put it up against new guns today.
8. workhorses....my club stocks loaners of m50's exclusively.
since i like tinkering, it doesnt bother me...clean, oil, adjust, throw them back in the rack and away it goes for another decade. and i always store my forearm screws loosened so the wood moves. you should too.
countless hundreds of model 50's have passed thru my hands. last count in the safe puts me at 18 of them right now. all grades. i like em. besides, they were made in my home state. my uncle worked on them. they have a special spot in my life. that goes for model 12's too.
ask away in the future. be glad to help.
people that read of the 2 washer mod to the stock loosening recall dont always do the important part of boring out the equal amount of wood inside the stock cavity.
when you add the washers the OL effects the adjustment of the spring.
issue is, if you dont know if the stock has been bored, or ignore that step, you can find yourself back in trouble putting the washers in.
i have the stocks 'factory gunsmiths recall' procedures if anyone needs it. just buzz me.
hand made guns went away in 1964. as mentioned, the 1400 was what they banked on to combat the 1100. they lost.
Would that management at the time could have foreseen the impact of that decision. They thought they were doing the right thing. I would say they opened the door for the competition to actually be able to compete.
You use to be able to buy a reprint of the assembly/dis-assembly instructions for the Model 50 that included a section on all the factory recalls. I have that book and own 4 Model 50s. I have shot them at skeet and they are great. Very smooth. I hunt doves with them occasionally too and they are great pass shooting guns.
I like the fact that Carbine Williams designed it.
Thanks Bobski for that list. That will go well with my little book in making sure I keep them running great.
Jason
I have enjoyed the Model 59 for the last 20 yrs in the grouse woods. Reading Frank Woolner's books I had never heard of one until then. I think they are most at home in the grouse and woodcock covers, the rearward balance point lends itself to the fast point and shoot that the game demands.
I would recommend to anyone that shoots these to stay with a 3 dram load and 1 1/8 oz of shot. From what I have been told by many old time lovers of the design it is a steady diet of heavy fast shells and not timing the action properly that caused the cracks in the frames. They were a long time favorite of high volume dove shooters because of the low recoil.
I would love to see this design modernized with carbon fiber on the barrel, titanium internals and synthetic stocks.
To key off of bobski's good advice on cleaning, keep the floating chamber very clean and lubed, as they tend to rust quickly.
Good post Bobski, excellent information.
my pleasure. the blowby on the chamber will gum up and cause a delay in cycling. youll know its time to clean, when the bolt hesitates on you before recycling the 2nd shot...or its slow going into battery on round 1.
i have a field expedient fix for stocks lacking the wood removal for the 2 washers mod. its in my va home. sorry, cant post it yet. i will soon. im in conn enjoying the mild weather.
for you fellows that shoot 50's in winter, im sure you noticed how a 50 likes to come off your shoulder weld or if you hold it lightly on your shoulder.
its because the design of the gun causes the bolt to squat down as it nears the pistol grip. thats why a 50 has low recoil, it send the shock wave down the pistol grip...not the stock...to the butt.
no other gun does that.
just a historical note, the video, "the showman shooter" 1954, with herb parsons...shows him shooting a model 50 with a polychoke.
he dials it in to Q-U-A-I-L as part of his act...and proceeds to smash some targets.
what killed the 50 early on was the decision NOT TO make 16-28 or 410.
cody has some experimentals on display where they toyed with it.
remington just took that advantage and buried them with it.
even so...when they made the 1400, they again hesitated with the 28 and 410 idea....and remington just closed the door on them.
small footnote...the 50, (like a model 12) was designed around and for paper hulls. the MK5 plastic hull came out as the m12 was discontinued and 3 years after the last model 59.
so...when you shoot modern ammo in a m50, youll notice your target will literly poof. its because the new wad going down a choke for paper cards will cause a choke change to the next tighter choke.
cyl is skeet. skeet is ic. ic is mod........etc.....
I think they made model 59's in the experimental 14 ga. I believe the hull was aluminum. I read somewhere that they were used on the Nilo farm by Mr. Olin and his guests. I wonder how many of them are out there? Also supposed to be examples of Pigeon grade model 59's...I haven't seen one for sale or even a picture of one. Do they exist?
I have seen exactly one of the 14 gauge Model 59s.
saw one here as well. i had a box of 14ga shells too.
they made some pigeon 59's. ive seen 3.
simmons offered a vent rib upgrade for the glass bbls too. never went over very well and the 1400 killed it all.
20ga model 50 featherweight #1 sold at auction about 10 years ago. i missed it. went for 3 grand.