.

The Beretta Custom Grade Atelier 490 Serpentina, which itself is based on the company’s more obtainable 486 Parallelo SXS designs - a one-of-a-kind SxS double shown off by the Beretta Gallery last week.


https://www.guns.com/2018/07/23/beretta-...l-black-photos/








I don't think it'll be affordable by the common working man.....


.

This common retired man wouldn’t buy if he could. Ugly. What were they thinking?

Beretta could easily mass produce that gun, put it in the same line as the A300

It actually looks mass produced. Nothing attractive except the side lever.
Karl

I agree, and I really like Beretta sxs shotguns. They had a great mass produced shotgun with the 62x series and could sell a lot of them if they would make them again.

This my friends is the future

Awesome. I think I am going to get me a Beretta 486 now.

Love the side lever, not a fan of the high gloss funeral style gun. They could have done so much more. If I wanted to hunt with an all black double gun, I would rather carry one of my Brno sidelocks.

That is one fugly looking shotgun. I think I need one of those Pepto-Bismol tablets I give to the dogs for an upset stomach.

A sidelever looks good on a Grant or other classic vintage double. Kinda out of place on a new shotgun. Like a buggy whip outside the driver's window of a new Ferrari.

Alright... I'll be the first to admit that I'm appreciative of a new design although it will certainly be out of my price range. At first glance, I thought it came with a black synthetic stock, but after watching the video, it appears to be wood. I appreciate anyone who is willing to try to modernize a 125 year old design. Beretta won't sell a lot of these guns, but at least they may bring some new blood into the market.

I'll offer this: make that a satin blue, a full pistol grip, a long semi-beavertail, a raised vent rib, with 32" barrels, @ 8 lbs., and I would definitely consider one.
JR

When it does not sell well, they will just push another model.
The images provided above leave me cold.

However, a Parker gun gets my attention!


BTW, my family own and shoot a variety of shotguns makes and styles and I am not prejudiced against Beretta guns. In fact, I have just purchased a circa 1964 Beretta GR 2 double trigger gun and when it arrives next week, I will do a separate post about it along with some interesting details and pix.

My take is this.

We live in an age of hyper-accurate CNC machining, and of CAD-produced machinery and processes which can put forth a degree of repetitive quality per price point that is parabolic in comparison to yesteryear.

And while these are amazing technological advances, in some ways they mean the death of authenticity in many creative human endeavors. (For instance, a computer can recreate a Monet...and make it even better, without a single little drip or odd brush stroke.) As such, and rather ironically, each technological leap forward is less and less impressive by degrees...even as it may be "better" in some measure. (A space-age recoil pad that absorbs 6% more impulse!!!)

This is why a Purdey from 1888 blows me away...and one from 2018 is practically boring.

This new Beretta is striking to me. Yes, there's nothing "new" about a side leaver. But the lines are new enough that I think they're taking a risk in moving away from their very tried and true designs.

And THAT's the most impressive thing a company can do to distinguish itself in this age. Everything else...fit and finish, exacting tolerances...we should EXPECT those things. Technology makes them quite easy as long as there is a man wealthy enough to pay for it.

But new designs are not easy. And ESPECIALLY so when your entire reputation is steeped in your old tried and true designs.

Is it Earth shattering? No. But I'm quite impressed. I think this took some balls.

- NDG

Side levers are not only ugly but clumsy. WTF is that doing on a gun made after top levers are figured out? A totally sleek greyhound of a gun with that THING hanging on the side. But it only makes ugly uglier so maybe it doesn't make any difference.

And it is obvious from this excrescence along with a O/U that the new concept and design team has discovered drugs and not yet worked their way up to the good ones.


They must be getting together with the Perazzi guys after work.

Wow, somebody finally invented a side lever double shotgun! If this trend continues, we may even see someone invent a gun with external hammers.

A push button for the top lever would have been more in line with this gun.

Given that it's a sxs--which automatically means it's more attractive to hunters than to target shooters--they wouldn't be likely to sell very many high dollar purpose built sidelever target guns. Now if it were an OU target gun with a sidelever . . .

Not an especially warm and fuzzy air about it.

I'm trying to imagine sitting by the fire, dog nearby, wiping the gun down after a day afield, but instead my vision runs toward sticking the thing in a decon chamber.

Same here....make it a dedicated clays gun and I'm all in.

28 gauge, 32" barrels, straight grip, ribless, lever on the left, streaky English Walnut, then maybe I'll take a closer look. Shouldering a pair of left lever Bosses converted me to the idea.

I fully agree with 8-bore on the "Left" side lever. I am right handed & find a left hand lever a natural for a right hand shooter. Your thumb is already on that side of the grip, just flick it down to open.

Don't much care if the "Wonko" likes one or not, having turned the big 80 I am old enough to have formed a few opinions on my own.

As to the rest of the gun I would prefer a 28" barreled 16 gauge.@ around 6-6¼ lb.

Obviously Larry you don't follow the NSCA events around the country, both large and small, where there are hundreds if not thousands of registered shooters who participate in the sxs events. I assure you there are many more prospects for this gun in this segment than for a few hunters scattered around the country.
JR

I agree and will raise with the opinion that the push button like the ones on NEF singles is the best option of all for an opener...Geo

The lines of the action on this gun are most unattractive to my eye.

And beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It has a perverse attraction for me as a competition sxs. For a classic bird gun, not so much.
JR

Both this and the 486 parallelo might be more interesting if double triggers are available...

Regards, Tim

Welp I guess I'm the only one who likes the sleek clean lines of this gun. I also love side and or under levers.

What I don't like is the black liquid looks of the gun. Give me a nice figured walnut and rust blued barrels and if priced right I'd be a buyer. Offer it in sub-gauges would be more of a hit to me to. JMHO

In complete agreement.

Have spent a lot of my life looking at the lines of cars and of boats. In both cases, just about every time, the cleaner the line, the better looking. And as battle says, this has clean lines....but they aren't good lines.

To my eye, they are forced...different purely for the sake of being different, rather than clean because the designer got rid of extraneous stuff and got it down to the essence.

The Beretta 486 Parallelo is available with 32" barrels and a double trigger from the factory; it's just special order. Regardless, I've put on order a 12 bore Beretta 486 Parallelo with 28" barrels, Prince of Wales stock, and beaver tail forearm. Can't wait to pick it up.

is VERY Italian... but with a single trigger? No thanks.

Canvasback,
I agree that the lines on the gun certainly look contrived and unnatural.
Karl

Although I could never afford it, I rather like both the gun, AND the maker's courage to put something different out there.

I also like the discussions this OP has provoked, both for or against - please keep it up !


.

That gun looks like it would slip out of your hand if you didn't wear gripper gloves...Geo

Well John, this being a doublegun BB, it's a great place to test the water. So far, I see you and one other favoring the gun in pure target format. I count myself and 3 others--references to 28ga, gun in subgauge, and 16ga--that think it's better offered as a game gun. So far, you're trailing 4-2. And of course as a game gun, it can also double as a competition gun. Make it 8 pounds plus and it wouldn't be the choice of many upland hunters. Ducks and turkeys . . . maybe.

Well I like it.
Why custom though ? That just means that it costs us way more.
As stated earlier, with modern CNC Manufacturing this gun could be made affordable.
No engraving made them a big saving, & it is just a box lock, with a single trigger. A simple looking gun.
The Turks could make this for about a grand I reckon.
You pay for Beretta, the name, & a shotgun comes with it.
O.M

Looks better than a bunch of doubles, as is. I'm thinking Win. 24, Win. 21.................

I'm also thinkin' a .410 with 31" barrels and two triggers would be smokin' hot..........a veritable funeral model.

SRH

Hmmmm....Win 21, you have stepped on some toes now and with intention too.

Yep, but I call 'em like I see 'um. Bob C. won't like it, I know, but my opinion is worth no more than anyone else's.

SRH

Once more:

Whoa, Stan. Add double triggers and a second set of long barrels in .410 to my earlier wish list.

I agree about the left side lever. I've got a .410 with a right side opening lever and, while it works perfectly, it requires too much movement of the thumb each time. Maybe the original designers thought that recoil would cause it to contact the thumb on the left side, but with a sub-gauge that wouldn't be an issue.

SRH

How would you tackle that lever ?
O.M

An under lever would be better, imo. Look better too.
JR

You are correct...opinion wise that is.
5lb 12oz 30" 28 gauge or 5lb 15oz 30" .410.

The side lever is nothing more than a gimmick and would likely have little to no impact on market share - certainly not a positive one at any rate. LOOK AT ME I'M DIFFERENT FOR NO REASON!!! Get real, people! Side levers went away because top levers are BETTER!

Now a 21stCentury dedicated SxS target gun? That could win some hearts. Beretta is already doing co-op's with TSK so that is in place. Now all they need is a gun to put it on but I'm pretty sure I'm not gonna wait under water for it.

"I'm not gonna wait under water for it. "

Wonko, sane or not, that is a great line! May I use it?

Once more:
[/quote]

Repeating an opinion doesn't make it any more than that, JR. And you're still trailing here in the vote total. Think on this: If 12ga sxs are so popular with the target shooters, compared to smallbores with hunters, I eagerly await your explanation: Of 12's, 20's, and 28's produced as Parker Reproductions, there were fewer 12's than either 20's or 28's. Which, based on rarity if nothing else (as well as serving dual purpose as target guns) should mean that they command the highest prices. Au contraire! 28's (approximately twice as many produced as 12's) have seen significantly greater price inflation than either 12's or 20's. And since you'll look long and hard to find a 28ga Repro that weighs more than 6 pounds, they're quite clearly NOT target guns. Yet, hands down, win the popularity contest with buyers, who pay more for them than for a 12.

Whatever you know about NSCA shoots, you don't know much about the sxs market.

OMG, what was Woodward thinking using a gimmicky thing...

Just move it to the left side, for a right handed shooter. His thumb is there already anyway.

SRH

Stan, would your thumb be long enough to have the leverage and angle to operate it? Never tried a left side lever.
JR

I can understand that for some following the discourse as a progression of thots and comments can be taxing. I would suggest that it may be worthwhile to explore the offerings of adult literacy programs that I believe are now offered by many libraries.

JIC it may not have been universally understood the side lever on the Beretta is a gimmick. On older guns it may have been an unfortunate necessity or misguided client. I mean, count how many there are compared to top lever guns at any time in history and figure out how wonderful they were. NOT!

Lordy! Straight grip, two trigger, and now side lever posers! It just never ends or fails to provide some terrific laughs. Thanks.

Looks a little better dressed with walnut and cased:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=28&v=Wnped70cA_c

a one-of-a-kind SxS double shown off by the Beretta Gallery last week.


I hope its one of a kind. Let"s pray they do not make more

JOhn

It just takes a little shift of the hand left, never even removing your palm from the grip, to operate a left side sidelever. Works slick. A lot less hand movement that operating a top lever, though I have devised a way of my own to do that efficiently and quickly. I intend to get a buddy to video how I do it next time I go clays shooting and I'll try to post the video on here.

WTS notwithstanding, the top lever is not the do-all end-all of opening gadgets for double guns. The opening latch of a doublegun has yet to be perfected, IMO. And, prolly never will be.

SRH

You've got some gorgeous wood on your 21s, Bob.

SRH

The looks of that gun reminds me of the NYC/London/Paris high fashion scene where the male models are dressed in skirts and combat boots to make a point of cutting edge fashion. Gag.

If it is actually stocked in ebony, and not walnut that has been pimped to look like ebony, I'd bet it weighs 19 pounds.
We used ebony forend tips to shift the balance around on Darne doubles. It is dense, heavy stuff.
Not to my taste, I'm afraid, and, of little to no concern, as I suspect it will never be seen outside of Italy.

Best,
Ted

Variety is such a bad thing.

Only Side lever opener I have is a Birmingham proofed W Richards, likely made by J P Clabrough. This is a pre 1887 back action hammer 12ga with left side lever. I keep this gun because it belonged to my Grandfather, it is a non shooter. I have of course handled it & tried it for feel etc. The thumb piece for this lever lies just enough below the thumb as to prevent it being hit. A mere drop of the thumb & it is there. Total movement of the lever's extremity from bolted to open is less than 3/8 inch & takes hardly no effort at all. It is certainly easier & quicker than any top lever I have ever used & a top lever is basically what I have used for some 65+ years.

My conclusion is that anyone who would not like this side lever has likely never tried one & therefore knows not one thing about which they speak. Amazing that the lowly firm of Clabrough figured out the lever should be on the left while a prestigious firm as Woodward didn't.

"I mean, count how many there are compared to top lever guns at any time in history and figure out how wonderful they were. NOT!"
Count how many Crescent Arms or Stevens Doubles were made in comparison to Purdeys. What have you proved?? Sometimes its Lonely at the Top"

When it comes to Crescents and Stevens vs Purdeys, somehow I think price is probably the 500 pound gorilla in the room. After all, there are also a lot more Fords on the road than Rolls. It's likely the best selling make and model Brit gun ever was the Webley 700. They're good guns, but no one is going to argue that they're the best guns.

You fail to grasp the point that Miller was making, Larry. That point being that sheer numbers of production, of differing designs, is not a reliable indicator of usefulness..............even if the example he used isn't perfect by all "considerations". It is obvious to me that he wasn't arguing that Crescents and Stevens(es) were at the top of the quality list, but that they were far above Purdeys in number and use. Thus validating his claim that sometimes it is lonely at the top. Evidently you assumed, wrongly, that he meant the top of the quality list. Everybody on this board knows that Miller is smarter than that, including you.

Did you ever refuse to vote to approve the minutes of a board or committee meeting because a comma was in the wrong place? Just curious.

SRH

I remember Dewey Vicknair made a statement to the effect, that the sidelever is the superior system and the top lever is really an abomination. I don’t know if I necessarily agree the top lever is an abomination, but Dewey is a high level gunsmith and I’m sure he gave it a lot of thought before making such a statement. Maybe he’s right? Maybe not?

Beretta should immediately fire all involved in the abomination of this shotgun.

That thing is not just ugly it is butt ugly.

Thank you Stan;
At least one person here was able to interpret what I was saying. Perhaps the reason the side lever lost out to the top lever was so many makers insisted on putting it on the wrong side.

Keep in mind everyone, this lever only withdraws the bolts. It does not require great effort to accomplish that. "Uncle Dan" Lefever's first "Hammerless" design was a sidecocker. This gun used a long lever on the left side for cocking the hammers, but it did not open the gun. It had a thumb push opener on the top tang for that. Have seen a couple of these but never had the privilege of handling one so can make no comment on their ease of use.

That left side opening lever is though extremely easy to use. Only wish the gun I have with this lever was usable. Unfortunately it went through many years of neglect & abuse before I acquired it.

I read seven pages of responses and thought I had missed something, so I went back to page 1 and looked at the pictures again. Nope, still ugly.

What is that stock made of? Is it plastic? The pictures make it look like that bakelite stuff Stevens used to put on their guns back in the fifties.

I can understand someone in the design room wondering, "What if...," but it should have stopped in the model room. And double triggers ain't gonna' save it.

I can just see Walsingham, Ripon, et al, and their loaders demanding side levers so as to facilitate the shooting. NOT!
I'd be guessing about the first time that left side side lever caught on Ripon's hat as he passed the gun would be the last.

The top lever may not be the end all design but there has certainly been more than adequate time for other innovation in gun design to have come up with a viable replacement.

In all of my shooting experiences I have always carried & loaded my own gun. I have never had the benefit of a Gunbearer or Loader. Therefore what Walsingham, or Ripon used or desired means Diddly Squat to me.

As I mentioned all my doubles I have used over the years had top levers. I have absolutely nothing against a top lever. Just from handling this old hammer gun with the left side lever I can see it would be as easy & fast, or more so, to operate as a top lever.

That is all I am saying. To totally condemn one item simply because another is more popular is extremely Shallow & Nearsighted. I could totally enjoy a nice looking gun with a left side opening lever. I do agree this New Beretta is not it, even if the lever was relocated to the other side.

I do not know absolute numbers but I believe A&D boxlocks far outnumber side locks. An A&D is way down my Personal list of desirable guns, its popularity not withstanding. As I have said on several occasions at 80 years of age I am quite old enough to have my own opinions on things.

The A&D boxlock is king. If I was told it was the only gun I could own, I wouldn't feel as bad about owning the A&D as I would feel about getting told I could only own the A&D. I've seen it printed that God himself shoots a pair of Purdey hammer guns, but, if God is a practical sort of guy, I'd bet he has at least one A&D boxlock, as a backup, or, for when it is raining. A nice, cased A&D.
The Beretta, above, is likely mostly an A&D, with an odd sidelever stuck on it. It might be ugly, but, being a Beretta, I'd bet it works.
I've adapted myself to several different designs of shotguns, some better than others. There isn't much to adapt to with the typical, toplever A&D, and, that is a very good thing.

Best,
Ted

Again, I like it. But I also like the Manufrance Ideal (under ?) lever to.

I'll bet that if Beretta gifted one of these to every member who has commented here that not one would say "No thanks, too ugly" & hand it right back.
O.M

I'd like to see Dr. Wanker's gun mount that brings the left side of his gun's action up to hat brim level. Of course, Dr. Wanker probably wears hats like this, which might pose a problem with a left-side opener:



But coming from Dr. Wanker, I can believe he utilizes such an extremely uncoordinated gun mount technique.

I can explain it to you... he's a dork. But I can't understand it for you, because that would require having brain damage like Dr. Wanker.

Not me.

I'd keep mine there'd be some idiOt out there that would at least buy one....

I hear tell Beretta is working on a new advertising slOgaN...

"God made fat ugly women and crAck cocaine made skinny toothless women and Beretta has made a shotgun uglier than both".

Well Stan, as a former language teacher (even though that language wasn't English) and as a writer, I do recognize that small things, like commas, can be quite significant. For example, the difference between "helping my Uncle Jack off a horse" and "helping my uncle jack off a horse" is more than just a difference in a couple capital letters.

Brown no body cares about your Muzlim language skills...

And so humble........

We could also try the expression "eats shoots and leaves", which defines the dietary habits of a koala . . . or we could insert two commas and it becomes the description of a hungry gang banger who declines to pay the waitress.

Unfortunately for you, harmless but annoying one, the language I taught was French. They taught a lot of Muslims how to speak it, after which they used thousands of them as soldiers to fight the Germans (twice) and the Vietnamese.

Always good to have language skills, Joe. If you had them, people might be fooled into believing you're literate.

Humble or not, that is a very good joke about the importance of grammar.

The peerless French Muslim colonial mountain troops saved US general Mark Clark's ass in Italy and led the Allied armies to Rome.

Clark "deliberately sabotaged" Allied strategy because he saw "the Italian campaign as being fought as much against the British as against the Germans."

Quotes from the distinguished US military historian Douglas Porch in The Path To Victory, page 560.

Stan made a good point about grammar and comma. I try to get it right but make a point of not correcting others except for children in the family. My mother was an inshore fisherman's daughter who made a slip now and then. I noticed early-on my father did not correct her because he loved her dearly. I feel the same way about everyone; it just isn't on with me. It doesn't matter, not here certainly.

Mr. Brown, you are wasting valuable energy in any attempt to provide language guidance to most speakers of English. Exactly why that is I would hesitate to say but a general abhorrence of anything that could be characterized as "intellectual" seems to prevail.

besta luck

Fack! Me dead? This sertainly went of (sic) the rales: did’nt it;

Eye sorta:kinda like it.,but then im’ weerd?


__________________________
Any Doug Sahm fans?
https://youtu.be/srUmaQ0XK0M

Man, does that suck. Better:

https://youtu.be/u_VsvZmIWxY


Best,
Ted

__________________________
War is the answer.

Once again you miss the main point entirely...............or conveniently ignore it. Anyway, thanks for making my case for me.

SRH

I'd like to note that Larry Clown's comment would draw all kind of criticism from his older brother King and the other Thread Police if it came from a Conservative. None of us are interested in what Larry and his uncle do to horses. Hard to imagine getting any further off-topic.

To get this thread back on topic, I'd still like to see Dr Wanker's gun mount technique in which a left side lever would catch on the shooters hat.



Shooting when prone to spastic fits doesn't sound very responsible to me.

Just doing my best to answer your question, Stan. Unless you want bad things to happen, it's a really good idea--especially in the case of written documents--to make sure that everything is correct. That's why it's a good idea to have either an English teacher or a lawyer (or maybe both) available to double check.

That wasn't the point, Larry. And you know it. You saw an opportunity to shift the discussion from Miller's comment:



.......and your reply:



You see, you assumed that Miller was talking about quality of workmanship when he said "Top", but you assumed wrong. When offered the opportunity to duck and run from admitting that, you did the sidestep by using the opportunity I provided. So, without realizing it, you "made my case".

You're too predictable, Larry. Thanks, man. Have at it some more...............I'm moving on to greater challenges.

SRH

This was my reply to Wonko, which seems to have touched on this last round of controversy.

LARRY;
I am going to say it straight out & addressed to you directly. You had to try Intentionally & Extremely Hard to mis-interpret what I was saying. I was simply saying that sheer numbers do NOT in any way prove what is or isn't best.

Just because there are more A&D guns & more guns opened by Top Levers do not in anyway prove they are absolutely the best ever made, Period.

.

WOW ! !

Talk about thread drift...………………..

.

Yet another thread destroyed by the terrible 5.

Wrong. But, I’d hand it off to the Ruffed Grouse Society, and tell them “good luck” with the auction.

They’d need it.

Best,
Ted

I wonder how much most of the prejudices against the appearance of this gun are based upon a staunch and unwavering dedication to the past, and an unwillingness to embrace something different.

Beretta has not remained in the gunmaking business for over 500 years because they make foolish mistakes. They are on the cutting edge of design, and not all of what they come up with will be readily accepted by the general public. I'm sure they know that. As P.T. Barnum is reportedly to have said "There is no such thing as bad publicity".

I would very much like to own it, as much for it's "one of a kind" ness, as for it's utility. I would really like the funeral style on a dove field, I think.

SRH

By God she does look kinda quare now that you mention it.

I guess them gAy people need shootguns too...

Stan I didn't know they had guns 500 years ago.

Well................ they did.

"Maestro Bartolomeo Beretta was a master gun barrel maker living in Gardone. In 1526, Bartolomeo was paid by the Arsenal of Venice to make 185 arquebus barrels, making the Beretta company the oldest (gun) manufacturing company in the world. It is written that the bill of sale from 1526 is still in the company's archives."

SRH

If you go back to page one original post there is a link. Click that & you will see 490 Serpentina video.
It has that 1526 bill of sale engraved on its action.
O.M

All the longbow men undoubtedly commented how gAy it looked too.

Bartolomeo was undeterred.


_________________________
Barf metal on Sunday morning? I don’t think so.
https://youtu.be/jOMVsEk9EhU

Benelli ads are now featuring a racy new model.

Maybe Beretta marketing folk felt they had to respond in kind?

Aha. You confused me a bit, Miller, because the first sentence--the one in quotes--contradicts what follows. Although you did use quotation marks, nowhere in your post did you attribute it to Wonko (or anyone else). Always good, for clarity's sake, to make clear who it is you're quoting. As you did, above.

As for the top lever and A&D thing: In view of the fact that you have to look fairly hard (and mostly to France) to find ANY double, OU or SxS, that opens via any means other than a top lever--and given that top levers are used on "bests"--that would seem to indicate that it has been generally accepted as the best system. And given both the longevity of the A&D coupled with numbers produced, while there are certainly other actions that are at least as good (if not better), it's sufficient to prove to me that, like Fords vs Rolls, while the A&D may not be the best, it is an excellent combination of reliability coupled with a price that's well within reach of the majority of sxs buyers.

Now the brilliant ex-CIA Intelligence Analyst Larry Clown is telling us he couldn't see that Miller was responding to Dr. Wanker's post that was critical of the side lever opening system. It couldn't be any more evident, but we all know that Larry can never admit being wrong, even if it means showing us that he is stupid as well.

Larry's second paragraph above seems to be confusing "Best" guns with what are regarded as best systems for the masses... even though Miller took the time to explain that to him too. But what can you expect from someone who obviously does most of his shooting with a typewriter or keyboard.

With Larry as an Intelligence Analyst, and rocky mtn bill as a teacher, it's no wonder we've had the Chinese and dozens of other countries eating our lunch on bad trade deals, and we're allowing Mexico to invade our country without firing a shot.

Egads. Still too jangly. If you are going to play guitar.... you ‘gotta make it cry or sing.


https://youtu.be/oBP1tSgyluI


Best,
Ted

______________________________________
“ She’s got a daytime job, she’s doing all right”.

Try 1,000 years ago.

The first device identified as a gun, a bamboo tube that used gunpowder to fire a spear, appeared in China around AD 1000.

The Chinese had previously invented gunpowder in the 9th century (AD 800-899).

.

I knew about all that Chinese and Italian crap people refer to as guns.

When I think gun I think of the English flint and cap locks followed by the cartridge.

A former Co-worker of mine quite commonly made the statement "That's Why They Make Chocolate, Vanilla & 29 Other Flavors". Bottom line is Everyone simply does not like the same things. I bought my first double 64 years ago. From that day to this every double I have hunted with has had a top lever. I have absolutely Nothing against a top lever, but Rest Assured it is not the only one that is useful, efficient & easy to operate. Why did it superceed all other designs. To be honest I don't know, but it wasn't because it was that much Superior to all others & you can Take That to the Bank.

On Feb 1 1876 W Anson & J Deeley was issued US patent #172,943 for a Hammerless Cocking Mechanism & Lock. Was it a good design. Well its still around so apparently many people thought so. Is it "MY" favorite; "NO".

I like my old J P Clabrough sidelock or any of my Lefevers better. I find them just as reliable & far more Aesthetically Pleasing. Are these "Best" guns, no, but they suit me to a T. These are all more than 100 years old, some up to around 125 years old. They are still kicking rather high, much more so than me I am afraid. I have owned an A&D type gun, not a WR though. Was it good, Yes, but I like these others better.

In an 1895-96 Clabrough, Golcher & Co catalog the Clabrough like mine was priced @ $50.00. This was comparable to a #2 L C Smith, PH Parker, G Lefever, #2 Ithaca, A Remington, or B Baker. To keep an even comparison all are non-ejectors.I will say that of all these guns in this price range the Clabrough is the better engraved & few if any of them would I say were better built or fitted.

For a knock-about single the thumb push opener on late H&R's is convenient. Their Transfer Bar is a nice safety feature, but poorly designed. Several years back when I engaged in some part time gunsmithing I always kept several of these in stock. Have no idea how many of them I replaced. They used only one leg to function the bar & after a bit of use it broke off. There was plenty of room in the action to have put a leg on both sides which likely would have made them about 500% stronger, but would have cost a few cents more to make.

Conclusion of the whole matter is there Ain't No Perfect Mechanism I don't care what field you are in. All are compromises to some extent or the other.
No two people value the exact same things. Just because I say something is Not My Favorite is not to say it is Altogether Bad.

Larry is this written plain enough that even you can understand it??

I have my doubts Mr.Miller....

.
Here's a pair of Stephen Grant Sidelevers ca. 1890



Someone please remind me why we don't like these guns.

Beautiful guns. Though indeed a pair, not a matched pair, I would assume. Strange that they are so alike except for the sculpting of the lock panels and drop points on one, and none on the other. Also, the top one appears to have been sleeved to a smaller gauge?

Thanks for the pic, Bob. Your guns?

SRH

Here's one I can't wait to get back from an extensive rehab. I guess have shown it here before. Opening it seems natural but never really considered whether a left hand lever would be more practical until this thread discussed it.

I know side levers are popular and likely utilitarian, but to my eye, not as aesthetically pleasing as the ubiquitous top lever.

If they were popular they wouldn't have fallen from favor.

Having saw one of the worlds biggest mouse trap collections first hand it's easy to see where the term "building a better mouse trap" came from....the hundreds of different models would amaze you.

Guns are similar only the greatest designs prevail.

I don't believe anyone said that there's a perfect mechanism, Miller. But there are clearly some that stand the test of time better than others. And that's fact vs opinion . . . which is what you or I might consider to be our "favorite". And it's a fact that the top lever has stood the test of time better than any other opening mechanism on doubles. And while the A&D has more surviving challengers than does the top lever, it has also stood the test of time better--in terms of numbers produced--than any of those rivals.

Larry;
It seems you still have a problem understanding what you read. NOWHERE in my posting did I dispute the "Fact" that either the top lever or the A&D action has stood the test of time.

My sole point was that just because one mechanism has stood the test of time, even to the point of near exclusion of all others does not automatically mean the others are all "Worthless Junk" which was the implication to which I made my first reply.

There is absolutely no reason anyone who is fortunate enough to own a nice sidelever, underlever, thumb push or whatever should not Use & Enjoy it & fret not because it isn't a top lever. Certainly not every one believes the A&D action is the end all of gun design.

That's all I have said on this subject. Really my one original post should have been sufficient except for several trying to make me appear as a "Total Dummy" just because I do not accept some exclusive theory.

I have never argued about the "Numbers" of the top lever or A&D action. I still stand firm in my belief that numbers aren't everything. Perhaps instead of saying "Lonely at the Top" I should have just said "Sometimes it's Lonely when you're in the Minority" but then I am more of a mechanical type person than a Fancy Writer. Often times the Minority can be Right.

JB;
Nice looking old double. That gun has much the same configuration as the W Richards I mentioned, except the W Richards has the lever on the left. Shape of locks, rounded action bar, hammer shape etc are all very similar. Your gun is I would guess of a bit higher original quality than my Richards & in much better present condition from what I can see in the pictures. My Richards had the bores proofed as a 14 but it precedes the chamber mark which was introduced in 1887. It does currently have 12 gauge chambers.

Thanks Miller. I agree about the high initial quality of my Holland & Holland. Present condition though leaves a lot to be desired. Should be quite nice when done. I have yet to follow up on the provenance but likely early 1870's d.o.m.
I do admire those Grants but no external hammers (like that will ever catch on...)

JB;
AAH, H&H. from the pictures I could see the engraving was way ahead of mine, but had no idea as to the make. Obviously this old Clabrough built gun is nowhere in that league. I am still firmly of the belief that the side lever would not have vanished so quickly if more makers had simply had the foresight to have put it on the left side where it would have been under the thumb.

Well Miller, "Fancy" gun writers are a REAL minority. They don't make enough money to qualify as "Fancy". Of course having someone sell you a pretty nice new gun at an attractive price is a nice perk of the job, so they may end up toting a fancier gun than others at a similar income level. And while having a certain facility with the English language is a requirement of the job, that also fails to move one into "Fancy" territory. Take a look at what English majors earn after they graduate.

Larry do you ever tire of looking like a fOOl ?

Ah . . . what a relief! A new addition to my (very short) ignore list.

Anyhoo, I do think that gun could look better if it were photographed in a different setting.
The black back ground is being accentuated to push that funeral look.
The Serpentina with side lever & walnut stock has been photographed in a more normal setting & looks very desirable.
O.M

Just my opinion, but the only way to photograph that gun so it looks "better" is to do it in the dark & w/o a flash.

I've no problem w/a sidelever but that gun is ugly & the shape of the side lever is ugly.

With so many nice looking examples of A&D & trigger plate actioned guns to copy, why would anyone design that Beretta abortion just to be "different"?

Hello All,

After 13 pages of... back and forth? I can only say:

De gustibus non est disputandum!

(Miller, spot on!)

Best.

JC

Good to see you, JC!

Best,
Ted

I'd have to order it with the lever on the other side, as per Miller!

JC

What a wonderful looking gun. Would love the opportunity to shoot in. In the mean time, I will be having my new Beretta 486 Parallelo fitted by Dale Tate tomorrow in Camanche Hills.

Trying to compete with the Benelli 828U for ugly, I think.

Compared to a 1905 Stephen Grant side lever I owned; that is one very homely shotgun. Beretta should go back and look at what classic side levers looked like and duplicate those rather than this rendition. No thanks!

You'd think the dummies would have checkered the stock to draw some attention away from the rest of the ugly...

Joe,

Putting nice checkering & engraving on ugly guns is just like putting jewels,lipstick & tattoos on ugly women. Rather than improving things it just draws attention to the ugliness.

I like the shotgun and look forward to seeing the pricing. I really like the design and how Beretta likes to take chances and shake things up.

I will have to say that Tattoos only belong on an Ugly Women. If you have a Pretty Woman to start with WHY mess her up & detract from her natural Beauty with a bunch of Ugly Inkings.

A "silk purse out of a sow's ear" comes to mind.
Karl

That gun is gorgeous!