Since we were discussing Smiths recently, I thought I would post this one that is for sale. I know nothing about this gun, but it is one of the nicest that I have ever seen. I have bought from the auction house before and I would do so again.

https://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?lid=47992012







it does have the same thin spot at the gun we were recently discussing until it had to be locked up. I admit that would give me pause if I was seriously considering buying this gun.

It is not really my style of gun, but interesting to me, nonetheless.

It is a Crown Grade, no safety and looks to have the Trap Options, Ventilated rib, beavertail for-end, should have twin ivory beads, and recoil pad. The HOT and ejectors were another option. Before 1912 this was a Grade or NO. 5. but without the Trap Options.

OK- thanks for the info-- A Crown Grade was the pre-1912 Grade 5E-- So, was the Grade 4E then the Eagle grade post-1913? And was either the 3E or the Pigeon Grade the later Specialty Grade? Thanks for the info-- would like to see photos of this Smith- price seems in the ballpark for a optioned graded Smith-- but need to see more on bores, and choke dims.. RWTF

The No. 2 became the Specialty Gr. The No. 3 and Pigeon were dropped.
Before 1912 all guns were number graded except for the Monogram and Pigeon, after 1912 the guns were noun named. A few grades went to 1913-1914 before being changed.
I have a No 2E that letters to January 12, 1914 and was the last No. 2 made.

I believe that gun would go for $5000-$8000, all it takes is two bidders who want it and maybe higher.

Little used, high condition, and cracked behind the locks and into the wrist.


Best,
Ted

Yeah, so what is your point Ted?

It is an expensive gun that can’t be used.

Best,
Ted

When I zoom in on it I see a minute crack beginning behind the right lock panel. None on the left, and see no evidence under magnification that the one on the right continues into the wrist.

Can you really see a crack behind the left lock panel, Ted? I can't see one. You said locks, plural. Wondering if I'm missing something.

SRH

There are cracks on both sides, and the crack on the right extends well into the checkering.
8K, and it needs to go to a gunsmith before you can use it. The list of really good guys, who will still work on them is getting shorter, too.

Best,
Ted

Can you describe to me where you see the crack on the left side? I can zoom in about 7 or 8 times, but can see nothing. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place.

SRH

Certainly not alarming crack(s?). I have certainly fixed much worse.

Can someone zoom in on it (left side lock) to the max and take a screen shot to post? I don't know how.

Thanks, SRH

I still would like too see that crack......... that goes into the wrist.

I must need stronger glasses.

Double click on pic, then click on the "magnifying glass" with the "+" inside it, upper right of screen, to really enlarge it. I see no crack. You?



SRH

I can see something behind the right lock that may be a hair line crack.
Karl

Thank you, David. I have Cody letters on my 3 pre-1913 numerical graded (except the Pigeon Grade) 12 bores- MY 2E left Fulton in 1911- the Pigeon (DT-EJ_ english grip stock style) in 1909, and the 4E- (1900) that gun was re-fitted with 28" London steel ejector barrels and splinter FE) it originally had chain Damascus barrels)--

I just had my annual eye exam- at age 77- 20/15 right eye, 20/20 left- both working as a pair- 20/20. I am right handed, so I guess my right eye is my master eye.

The Pigeon grade has 28" barrels, and is choked IC/IMP-MOD- the others are choked M&F--

I am going to look over that crown grade with a 10X magnifier, my friend Stan noted that he might need new reading glasses-maybe I do also-- see what hairline cracks I might discern. As this Crown grade has the optional HOT, we must remember that more wood is removed between the locks in the stock head, to all the extra room for fitting the HOT-- we shall see- If that Crown grade is free of stock cracks, and no problems with the HOT, I could see it fetching $7500 to the right buyer-- RWTF

Francis, the Cody letters are kind of vague in their description. The Research Letters from L.C.S.C.A. give all that was written in the ledger.

As to your Pigeon grade or any other gun that has an extra set of barrels ordered from the factory, the price of the barrels was half the price of the gun for the same type of steel. Many times you will hear of extra barrels that are of a lower grade of steel and so they cost less.

Right side looks to have a crack that extends into the checkering. The engraving and stamps on the barrels look "soft" to me, maybe re-blued?

I see a split on one side that runs out to at least the checkering.......I see possibly 2 splits on the other side and maybe some feathering between them.

I have no dog in this debate but wonder if the fix to this would actually be cost prohibitive and would it mess with existing external finishes.......my guess is no unless they loose a chip of wood pulling the gun apart?

I have only seen a limited number of LCs , some with spits at the end of the lock plates but never one split through or unusable, Crescents, yes.

It's still not obvious to me on the left side but I certainly wouldn't deny it's there. Smiths are more prone to those type cracks than some other sidelocks, and we know why. My eyes just aren't what they once were, even with "readers".

Having those minute cracks properly repaired is not a cost prohibitive venture at all. A good stocker can also hide the surface evidence of the cracks. I've done so myself, on a side plated Verona, though in my case it was pure luck, not skill. That said, the cracks absolutely reduce the value of that nice gun.

SRH

The crack on the right side clearly extends into the checkering, and there are also small chips in the wood behind the lock.

I can see two small tight cracks behind the left lockplate. They are much easier for me to see when I look at them on my cell phone, and expand the pic, than when I exlarge the pic on my computer monitor.

I've fired L.C. Smith's with this type of stock cracking without making matters worse, so I assume that the cause of this type of cracking might be due to the repeated use of loads that are inappropriate for an old vintage L.C. Smith. I'd be a lot more concerned that the barrels might blow up and send a piece of shrapnel into a child's skull, and then have to explain to a Judge in a Civil Suit, why I failed to measure the barrel wall thickness in a place where they cannot be measured.

For those having trouble seeing, here are the two pictures.


The left side shows no sign of a crack. To enlarge it more hit ctrl+ as many times as you want, just make sure you hit ctrl- the same amount of times to bring it back to normal or leave it there since some of you are having trouble seeing.

The right side shows a crack going into the fluer de lis and stopping. It is so mynute as Stan stated and can be fixed for very little and probably unseen.

I see nothing that scares in the way of cracks. And nothing at all on the left side.

More interesting is that knurled button behind the trigger. Is that a barrel selector?

I do like the metal work on this gun. This might be a attractive as any American gun I've ever seen. The wood is just wrong for what I do, but it seems well done.

Brent, that is the barrel selector.
On these higher graded Smith's above a No.3 grade, the checkering is done by what might be called a master checker. The engraving was done by Albert Kraus as he only did the engraving on the higher graded guns.
When some of the higher grades with gold, the case hardeners had to be careful not to melt the gold out of the engravings. It has happened and wasn't a pretty site I was told.

Yes, I know that casing with gold can be tricky. I didn't realize it was even possible until a few years ago, which left me wondering how it was done at all.

It is the shaping of the action from the tang forward that I find most striking. I am not sure why. Just really well done and then the quality of the engraving and checkering to enhance that, as it should. Marvelous gun. I'd be seriously interested if stocked as an upland gun.

There are many in our organization that shoot some of these high grade Smith's at clays, not too many use them for hunting that I know of. They don't break more clays but sure as hell look nice.

We simply must be wrong, David. All LC Smith's are always cracked behind both lock panels, whether visible or not. We just have untrained eyes.

SRH

Yessiree--fact of life with L.C. Smiths- One of many reasons I lean toward pre-1913 graded 12 gauge Smith guns- pre-WW1- better grades of Walnut for stocking available than after WW1 ended--And all of mine had the epoxy lock area treatment by Brad B. And none of them have ever shot a 1& 1/4 oz. "Express Load" either- and never will--When you drive a Lamborghini, you use Castrol motor oil- not the Wally_World cheap stuff in the crankcase- RWTF

I have never heard it said that ALL L.C. Smith's crack behind the locks. Many do, and some do not. But this one certainly has cracks behind the locks. As I said yesterday, I can't see the ones on the left on my computer moniter, even when I enlarge the pics But they are quite visible when I enlarge them on my cell phone. It must have better resolution when the image is enlarged.

I had my eyes checked a few months ago, and had 20-16 vision in the left eye and 20-18 in my right eye, and do not wear glasses, so no problems in that department. I have no doubt that some folks have better hearing than me, after a lifetime of working in noisy environments, shooting firearms, loud music, etc. But that would be no reason for me to say that someone with excellent hearing must be hearing imaginary things, just because I no longer have perfect hearing.

Keith I have a 21" monitor, the left side at the end of the side plate is 4 7/8" wide. Hitting Ctrl + 5 times makes the image now 7 7/8" wide making it about 3x larger than on the actual gun. My vision isn't as good as yours but with glasses made for computer work having 3 different options I see nothing. I don't care how good the resolution on your phone is it is only as good as the resolution it was posted at.

I am not staring a shxt storm out of this. Just saying that nothing is there.

I got it, Stan.

I too can plainly see the crack on the Right side, but nothing on the Left.

It is pretty fascinating how entrance we all are by this (these) crack(s). I only see one and I see no sign that it goes into the checkering or even extends at past the edge of the panel. I sure hope someone here buys it so we can all find the truth about these mysterious things.

I'd be more interested in hearing from someone that has actually shot one of these. It looks like a heavy gun but one that might shoot very well indeed, if the fit is good for the shooter. I presume it was mostly a fowler or trap gun. Looks like there is at least a pound or two of excess wood.

Anyone have a guess what this gun might weigh?

Also, given that Jim Harrison (the name in gold on the trigger guard is not an immediately recognizable celebrity or historical figure, what does the name contribute to the overall value of the piece? I presume it is a negative, but how much?

I think stock crack comments are interesting. If it were mine, I'd convince myself it was a-okay. But, if I were buying it, a crack or signs of repair would have to be worth significant adjustment.

How much adjustment? $100, $1000?

The gun is one of 14 Crown grades manufactured in 1939. 339 12g Crowns had BTFE and 300 VR according to Dr. Jim's "L.C. Smith Production Records"

Crowns were popular doubles trap guns

Bart Lewis had the high average in 1922 and won the Grand American Doubles in 1926. He shot a Crown grade Double Barrel Trap with 32" Whitworth steel barrels, Hunter One-Trigger, and a straight grip stock.



Also using a Crown grade, C. W. Olney won the Dayton Grand Doubles and HAA title in 1925. The Hunter Arms records show the gun to have been on consignment to him for that summer.

Junior Champion John Snow Martin with what is probably a Crown
https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/video...otage/502472065

Lots of information for the buyer should be available with a Research Letter from the LCSCA.

I believe there has been a previous repair of the right inf. finger of the head of the stock, and the quality thereof may complicate definitive repair now



Dewey Vicknair has one technique for repair of a crack at the apex of the stock inlet here
http://www.vicknairrestorations.com/Vicknair_Restorations___Gallery.html

almost all of which are associated with or originate with cracks at the head of the stock

I dislike wasting a seller's time. It would be up to them to give me some sign that they were interested enough for me to stick around for a bit. They know to their satisfaction what they have, it's not worth itemizing flaws, other than for myself.

When a buyer begins itemizing flaws and adjustments to price you know you have him. Then it's just a matter of closing the deal. JMHO...Geo

I am not asking how you would dicker with the seller, but simply, how much less would you be willing to pay? For me, assuming there is not already another repair (seems somewhat more likely than the mysterious left-side crack), this crack would probably barely scratch the top dollar I would be willing to pay. Maybe $100-200 at most.

Drew,
Call Dewey up and ask him about costs and a time table for getting a cracked LC Smith fixed.


Let us know how that goes for you.


Best,
Ted

I think your question only works if it is for sale and a price is set. If it's a beater Smith on a used gun rack for three hundred dollars, would an identical crack have the same consideration process? I don't think such a small figure is worth mention, seeing where the bidding currently is at and where it may go.

I'd bet if a dealer wins this auction, then turns around and retails it at a hefty mark up, that might revise the value of the crack. It's all relative, based on the seller's optimism and the buyer's motivation. Most folks wouldn't 'discuss' an auction they were participating in until after it was over? I couldn't put a dollar figure on any bumps and worts until cash is actually changing hands.

Maybe not to you, but Jim Harrison, late writer from MI--is a name I know. Once he got famous and wealthy- he hunted grouse and woodcock here in MI with a Purdey- Also, in his novella "Legends of the Fall" he describes bird hunting in MT with English Setters and a Purdey gun-- Don't know if he ever shot a Crown Grade Smith--

IMO-- 2 MI "native sons" had a mind and ear for the heartbeat of America- Jim Harrison, and Bob Seger-- When Jim was in Hollywood, trying to get established, and before he sold the movie rights to "Legends"-- he asked friend Jack Nicholson if he could borrow $15K--Jack came through- and as soon as Jim got the royalty check, he went to the bank and obtained a Cashier's Check for the amount plus interest, and hand delivered it to Jack- who later remarked- "Jim is the only up and coming writer who ever repaid me for a loan- He stands tall with me"_-

FWIW- a while ago, I sold a 12 3E Smith to a friend on this forum- it had been sent back to Fulton for the 2nd. set of barrels- 32" F&F- ventilated rib-- F&F chokes- Not crack one in the stock or forearm- my guess- it had not been shot very much at all-- 95% condition-- HOT and ejectors 100% in timing and function.

As I am NOT a live bird competitor, the lack of a top tang safety might be a bit of a drawback in possible purchase of this fine optioned "Elsie"-- Also, I wasn't aware that Dewey Vicknair would work on Smiths-- RWTF

It would be cool if was the same guy, but you would think that would have been mentioned by the seller who is about as far from MI as one can get in WI.

I imagine the signature on the guard is copied directly from the owners signature. Should be easy to verify..

When I think of Michigan, Robert Traver is the first person that comes to my mind.

Different folks may look at it differently but to me, a non-recognizable name properly applied would be a non-issue, neither adding nor distracting from the price.

I have a Ca 1863/65 W&C Scott pinfire which is marked on the top rib For Benj D Kennedy, Louisville KY. The gentleman I bought it from was from Louisville & he tried to find anything he could about Mr Kennedy. All he could find was he had neither a birth nor death certificate related to Louisville, but during the period the gun would have ben built he had a business license for a Jewelry Store there. To me, this was interesting but did not affect the $ I was willing to pay in either direction.

That's OK David. I can see the very small cracks on the left side, and you can't see them. It's understandable, as they are very small and tight at this point. I'd say the right side pic is somewhat clearer and has less lighting glare, since I can see individual pores in the wood easier on the right versus the left. The upper crack on the left is about the size of the diameter of the rearmost pin, and the lower one is about 2 1/2 times that in length.

Ted and 775 saw them as well, so I'm not the only one with a wild imagination. It could even have something to do with color perception. Lots of people here have trouble seeing certain things. For instance, King Brown has stated numerous times that he has never seen any anti-gun rhetoric posted here in all his years on this forum:



Vision and perception can be funny like that. I don't even have to enlarge that post from Ed to see it. Hell, BrentD can see my posts, even though he says he IGNORES them. How's that for Super Vision?

Yessiree- "Danny and The Boys" is a favorite read of mine- Old Cabin Still whiskey, fine cane fly rods, and a daily cribbage game at an area tavern in Ishpeming-- Great writer indeed- Sorry I didn't include him with Jim Harrison, both greats, wrote in differing genres is all. RWTF

Ed Good is correct in his opinion of too many guns and depriving firearms from people who shouldn't have them as a solution: "we are the only country in the world that seems to tolerate mass murder, in the name of an individual right . . .it's about time we as a society realize we are over gunned with too many super dangerous weapons in the hands of too many super dangerous people." US gun violence is a head-shaker to the world. For Ed to say it doesn't make him anti-gun. He's declaring a public interest: what people would choose if they saw clearly, thought rationally and acted disinterestedly.

Could it be that ed and yourself live in a world of elites and criminals? Maybe, those who act objectively, rationally, and clearly are the law abiding overwhelming majority, not the handful of philosophers? The question might be, why trust a philosopher, eh?

Why not trust a philosopher? Are you saying philosophers are criminals? How does that work?

"Depriving firearms and or access to them- from people who shouldn't have them?"" Bases on what criteria, oh mighty King.?

Maybe we borrow a page from World history and do as Der Fuhrer did once he bullied his way into leading Dem Deutsche Volk 1933-

Our Second Amendment does not determine what constitutes a "Well Armed Militia" nor could our Founding Fathers know what an AK-47 was in that 200 year ago era-- any more than they could have visualized a space shuttle or HIV or heavy metal rock music.

You live in Country with a different history than we have in America. When we visit one of the provinces to hunt, we comply with your laws about transporting our firearms into Canada- we comply or are denied access- fair enough- now how about letting America resolve the gun issues to which you refer on this forum?

RWTF

What Ed said and I believe is "philosophy" to craig, Fox. Clearly it's not for you and me. We agree we are citizens of different cultures because of differences in our national development. We agree the Second is an enduring US debate.

I admire the United States and have said here many times that the US usually gets it right over time. Your word "resolve"---to dissolve or dissipate---the gun rights issue points toward agreement of Reason prevailing.

Rehabilitation in everything involves an honest assessment of reality, whether we're putting in a crop, seeing the banker, or meeting the expectations of community and family around us. Philosophy doesn't enter into it.

Drew,
Call Dewey up and ask him about costs and a time table for getting a cracked LC Smith fixed.
Let us know how that goes for you.


I don't understand your point Ted.
I have communicated with Dewey, have great respect for his skills and opinions, am not blind to the design defects of Smith guns, and have posted images confirming one of the defects. I've also had cracked Smiths (and Parker, Fox & Ithaca) fixed.
I happen to like them, use them (both are 1906 "farm implement" grades), enjoy historical information about them and the shooters who competed with them, but don't believe I have been an apologist for them.

My point was pretty simple. You referenced a superb gunsmith in a post about a design of gun he refuses to work on anymore. Seems a bit disingenuous to me.

The list of superb gunsmiths who feel the same is growing longer, not shorter.

Out here in Realville, I know way more people who have washed their hands of that design, some with a really bad taste in their mouth, then you see here. The overt gushing about the quality of these superb American shotguns is a little weird.

Beauty might only be skin deep, but ugly goes all the way down to the substandard braze between the ribs, and the lousy work in the bores. It is not uncommon.


Best,
Ted

Huh? There was a time when crops were put in to feed people, now that is being outsourced. Why does your community expect farmers to grow pot and hallucinogenic mushrooms? Is it to enhance beliefs or to conceal illegal drug trafficking in plain sight?

Rehabilitation in everything might be a problem, eh? Why do philosophers always want to create the need to rehabilitate? King, what do you think would happen if philosophy 101 were moved out of the latte and tofu lecture hall, to weekend camping trips at the community parks of the south side of chicago? I'm sorry that was culturally insensitive, let's say neighbourhoods of colour in toronto?

"The list of superb gunsmiths who feel the same is growing longer, not shorter. "

Ted, first you have to define the word superb gunsmith. There are many so called superb gunsmiths that take an L.C. Smith apart and cannot get it back together. This is especially true on a gun with a Hunter One Trigger. They take the gun in and then can't fix it. Many that have had this happen will not say anything about them because they are "gentlemen".
So yes the list might be getter smaller, but the ones that still do it DO IT RIGHT.

Another thing for you and others, I have never seen a Syracuse L.C. Smith with a crack behind the locks, that includes hammer guns. The early pre-1912 Smith's you seldom see a crack there, only on the later grades, my reasoning is that the wood is second growth and my opinion again, American walnut is not for side lock guns not dense enough.
Most European side locks only use maybe 1 1/16 oz. of shot and aren't used as nearly as much as our guns. There are some Smith guns that have been shot over 100,00 times and still no problems.

You can shoot what ever you like, that is fine with me but sometimes you and others get too opiniated.

Re-read your post again Ted, L.C. Smith made a total of 528,980 shotguns, besides this one how many other have you heard blow apart from a manufacturers fault?

King, I didn't edit out Ed's words where he said it was time for us to disarm. But you did. Why did you leave out the juicy part?




It has long been illegal for "super-dangerous" criminals to own guns and use them to commit violent crimes. There is no tolerance for that sort of thing here, nor is there a tolerance for mass murder.... except from Liberal Left Democrats who wish to restore to convicted felons the right to vote. I'll bet you are all in favor of that.

Ed has also called for blanket bans on an entire class of legal firearms, and you have seen that too, because I have re-posted his QUOTES on that a multitude of times. Ditto for Ed's calls to restrict and ban certain magazines which he (and you) finds unacceptable.



And look King... here's Ed once again... using just the words you chose to edit out:



But like you King, Ed has a long history of being in denial about the 2nd Amendment:



There's lots more here for anyone who might actually still believe you are capable of telling the truth:

ANTI-GUN POSTS by ED GOOD

Your claim to have never seen any anti-gun sentiment in all your years here is not just a matter of being unable to see them, as some have been unable to discern tiny cracks. Your claim is dishonest... and it took creative editing on your part to attempt to get us to simply forget the most important part of the QUOTE I posted as an example of Ed's anti-gun sentiment and beliefs. Is that how you operated as a reporter?

Dishonesty is not civility. But this latest "craft of journalism" and dishonest spin will certainly help to cement your legacy here as an anti-2nd Amendment Troll.

David,
“Superb Gunsmith” is actually two words.

Well, I’ve seen English guns that were used, hard, and American guns that were as well. I suspect a blanket statement, like, “Ours were used harder than theirs” might not withstand the smell test.

Remember the Purdey hammer gun in DGJ a few years ago, that had not only the checkering worn smooth, but, about 1/8th” of wood worn down on the forend, from use market hunting?

A blow up is rare enough, Thank God, in any shotgun, but, cracked stocks on L C Smith’s are not.

What you have seen does not match what I have seen. You may persist in claiming there is a magic number at which a cracked stock never appears on these shotguns.

I don’t.

Best,
Ted

While LC cracks behind the locks are obvious, every Parker I have taken apart has been slit vertically at least back to the top tang screw hole. Only one Fox with an original stock wasn't split the same way was a Savage gun that had the metal reinforcement applied at the factory to stop it from splitting. Any gun with loose screws or abused by use of heavy loads can and will crack any stock. You just see LC cracks easier. Low demand for Smith guns is OK with me as it means lower prices for a gun I happen to like. Chevy vs. Ford. Honda vs. Toyota to each his own.

Actually more like exploding Pinto, aluminum block Vega, non independent transaxle Corvair, versus something else.
There are products long on promise, and short on delivery. If you clearly understand what you are getting into, good for you.

Best,
Ted

Context, context, dear keith. Your post:

"Originally Posted By: ed good
as for the gun control issue...we are the only country in the world that seems to tolerate mass murder, in the name of an individual right...its about time that we as a society realize that we are over gunned with too many super dangerous weapons in the hands of too many super dangerous people... it is long past time to do as the rest of the civilized world has done and simply, disarm..."

The rest of the world has disarmed from a Wild West characterized by United States gun violence. "Disarm" doesn't mean total ban on firearms, mostly a balance for reasonable public safety decided democratically by electorates which Ed correctly referred to. It's near top of media platforms in Canada and the US this weekend, trending seemingly toward gun reform.

First, the United States of America is not a Democracy, it is a Republic. It is overseen by a constitution. This is the 2nd amendment to that constitution which was added before the constitution itself was ratified as were all the first ten amendments.



Changes to this cannot be made by a simple majority vote of the People or their elected representatives, it requires a new amendment be done. This amendment is plainly written & straight forward, there is no logical reason anyone should misunderstand it. The "People" are the citizens of the USA. Their Right to "Keep & Bear Arms" Shall Not Be Infringed.

Recently, your buddy cback explained the hoops he has to jump through to obtain a handgun. In the name of public safety, how can most Canadian firearm homicides be committed with handgun? If you can only license a handgun for target shooting, will you philosophize on how it's possible to misuse a handgun, 'cept of course forgetting one where kids-n-mounties play?

King, it is well known by now that you have little or no respect for our 2nd Amendment, or the truth. It took a very tortured interpretation of Ed's words to come up with your usual bullshit. Unfortunately, this comment by Ed wasn't made in a vacuum. This comment is but one in Ed's long history of anti-gun rhetoric.

I provided more of it expressly for you, and even posted a link to many more of Ed's past statements. I reminded you of Ed's desire for flat out bans on entire classes of legal firearms owned by law abiding citizens. And your response here is precisely why I saved it... and why I also saved dozens of similar statements made by you... and why I think your words should be posted as a permanent Memorial Tribute to you and your legacy here.

You have lied here for years about the so-called "Wild West" level of gun violence, always blaming the inanimate object and always making excuses for those who commit the most violent crimes. You also stated that there is no civilized nation where it is more prevalent. I responded with the example of Russia, a Socialist experiment gone horribly wrong. You read this numerous times, and ignored the truth:



Liberal Left people like you and rocky mtn bill aren't interested in what is decided by "electorates". The electorate here decided to make the pro-2nd Amendment Donald Trump our leader, along with a Republican controlled Senate. And it is driving you all nuts because he is not sharing your vision for gun restrictions and flat out bans on the types of firearms you all don't like. He is nominating Supreme Court Justices that interpret the Constitution based upon the Original Intent of the Framers... not on your fictional views and anti-gun desires.

9 days ago, May 4th, 1970 was the anniversary of a school shooting. It kind of also shoots holes in the idea that we would all be safer if only the police and military had so-called assault style firearms. It was that little insignificant incident where a bunch of kids were shot for exercising their First Amendment rights to free speech, assembly, and protest.

But being the "Father of Fake News" reporter who can carefully pick out certain words and actions, and re-define them to suit his Liberal Left agenda, we all know what happened at Kent State University means nothing, and is but an annoying blip that gets in the way of your own anti-gun beliefs. If that had been the National Guard shooting a bunch of black civil rights protesters, we'd never hear the end of it from you.

But you have told us that your anti-gun rhetoric, and anti-2nd Amendment and anti-NRA views are something you are proud of. That is why I feel it must be your lasting legacy here... long after you are gone. People need to know that embracing anti-gunners like you, who support those who infringe upon our Constitutional Rights, are stabbing gun owners in the back. Why do you think the repeating truth about you, along with your own words, drives certain people like Gladys Kravitz nuts?

This is a forum of opinions, on guns and many other things, keith. It's entertaining and informative. Members have different opinions, and we should respect them for it. I measure value of those opinions---individual reality--- from their posts, their experience, and how they express themselves.

You'd condemn an opinion that some improvement in the Commandments could have a positive effect on Christianity. The Founding Fathers didn't plan for political parties. Your country hasn't settled on the Second Amendment. I read no complaints here of slowing slaughter by banning bumpstocks.

Our worlds are changing. We'll get used to it. Open and accountable conversations, of moderation and tolerance, make living bodies of the First and Second, constitutions, and bills of rights. I'm pleased members have not harassed Ed Good as unAmerican for saying what he believes.

I think handgun restrictions in Canada started in the early 30s, around the time of the Lindberg kidnapping. Coincidence that this weekend our media was filled with federal and provincial concerns of "black market" handguns crossing the border from the US. (I think nearly 800 stopped since beginning of the year.) It's not an academic exercise to understand that persons wanting to kill another will use an instrument of choice, often firearms including pistols. We've lots of them.

"IF" by commandments, this referencing the "Ten Commandments, there were changes made to them in the First century. These co0mmandments were NOT written by men & were not changed by men.

As to the constitution, it was written by men & provisions were made for it to be changed/amended by men. There is a certified procedure which "Must" be followed for change.

The big problem is there are many, mostly Democrats, who are trying their hardest to by-pass that procedure & push their agenda because they are fully aware they do not have enough backing to go through the proper channels. Unfortunately, there are several issues, not firearms related, on which these same people have successfully been able to take the constitution completely out of its context & the Supreme court, rather than interpreting the Constitution, has Legislated via the courts.

Those of us who truly believe the Constitution should be followed as written until such time as it is legally & properly amended will fight all of these changes to our fullest extent. This is why I did not vote for the Clintons, I did not vote for Obama & I DID vote for Trump.

Thanks, Miller. I wasn't aware of early changes. I respect all faiths but do not agree all their aspects. The commandments to me are as good a checklist around for honourable living but Jesus's spoken word to love most cherished of all.

King;
For the most part, those commandments have been carried over in some form into Christianity. The commandment to Remember the Sabbath Day & Keep it Holy was a commandment given only to Israel.
Christians are not commanded to Keep the Sabbath, the 7th day of the week (Saturday). They are rather commanded to Assemble & Worship on the First Day of the Week (Sunday), the day Jesus arose from the dead & the day the Church which he purchased with his Blood was established on the first Pentecost following his Ressurection.

I Believe what is written in the "Word of God" not what any man has instigated or written. Jesus, The Christ, plainly stated "The Words Which I Have Spoken, the Same Will Judge You in the Last Day".
There are no provisions made for any man to Alter the Words spoken by God or his Son Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

Uh oh, the philosophical rope-a-dope.

In a changing world, concerned with safety for all, can you philosophize about the yin and yang of rising Canadian handgun murder rates and the inability to possess or use a hangun without a target shooting only license? Or to rephrase that, would you be willing to share a factual list of the next three or four gun control increments that are on the agenda?

"black market", I find that insensitive, check that offensive. Are we profiling Canadians of colour, yin, while ignoring the culture of the urban gang, yang? Or, does that exude too much toxic masculinity? Huh, no forestry community organizer day for the trees ravaged to make rolls of impeachment tissue?

Miller very nicely stated and thank you for sharing this information.

Very much on federal government's horizon is banning handguns, craig. It's taken the temperature of cities and regions across the country.

I follow the Mountie's liberal interpretation of the rules when I registered mine 65 years ago: if you're going to shoot make sure no one can see you or hear it.

No yin and yang to it.

Thanks again, Miller. I'm conflicted seriously on observing the Sabbath and my country's complicity in invading other countries, changing their governance, if their policies are inimical to our national interests.

King, I do not respect the opinion of a foreigner who constantly disparages our Constitution, and especially one who has the gall to disparage our 2nd Amendment here on a gun enthusiasts forum.

I certainly do not respect the opinion of a deceptive fraud like you who first edits out parts of Ed's anti-gun rhetoric to defend it, and then, when busted in that deception, returns with an extremely tortured interpretation of his words.

Ed's words... his anti-gun rhetoric is clear... as is yours:



Look there King... two short statements... two big fat lies. I've posted long lists of quotes and writings of the Framers that demonstrated the Individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms was their Original Intent of the 2nd, and the Supreme Court majority used the same well documented words... which you continue to deny. And to say Obama did nothing when he himself considers his inability to pass his anti-gun legislation as his greatest political defeat is further evidence of how deceptive and dishonest you are.

It is hard to expound upon what Miller said concerning the Constitution and the Amendment process. Unfortunately, his words were wasted on someone as dishonest as you. You persist in the notion that the Constitution is some "living document" which can be easily changed by the whims of the electorate and by activist Liberal Left Judges. Affirmation of the Original Intent of the Framers concerning the 2nd was made in both 2008 and 2010 in the Heller and McDonald decisions. But you have persisted in propagating the lie that there was some recent change to the 2nd that was foisted upon the public by Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft and the NRA.




You want us to respect your opinion when you repeatedly lie to us???

Ah, that's how you do it. Instead of out of sight out of mind, if you're far enough away to not hear the misery created by progressives, then it doesn't happen, eh? Durn, and I always thought it was blinders.

Well, some traditions live. Seems the ruling class still brandishes the ole bend over style of thermometer, eh?

Don't forget, some think decorum means a compromise could be struck, regardless. Even though, if possible, a vote would be cast in an anational kamala or tlaib sort of way.

Thanks guys. Very nice derailing.

Brent, yes it is. Wish this site was used as it implied, Double Guns.

Nothing implied. It is plainly stated to be a forum about guns and to discussion to be conducted with a modicum of decorum. I'm calling bulllshit on that. I regret sending Dave my money a couple weeks ago. He pretty much falls on his face in keeping up his end of the bargain.

Maybe you should drop your tagline, then. ( .paid 4 May 2019) Here's a thought ..............why don't you ask him to refund it?

SRH

Actually, I have asked for a refund in no uncertain terms, but he is not man enough to honor it, of course.

And yes, I will be changing my tag line soon. Just haven't gotten around to it.

I wouldn't "honor" it either. It's just payment for past services rendered.

SRH

No doubt, Stan. You have turned out to be far less honorable than I intially thought. A rather big disappointment.

As always, following your lead, your "reply will be "filed" for future reference".

Quite the feat. You are man enough to derail a derail.

craig, I'm man enough to burn down the house. I really don't give a rat's ass.

"Far less honorable", coming from someone who expects something for nothing, is a backhanded compliment, Brent. Thank you.

"Filed for future reference"? Excellent.

SRH

craigd and Stan, he just isn't man enough to acknowledge that he has engaged in the same behavior that he pretends to be so deeply offended by. I'm sure you've seen examples of it that I have posted here for his viewing pleasure. But like most Libtards, BrentD sees only what he wants to see... and cries like a baby when he doesn't get his own way.

You all know damn well BrentD wouldn't say a word if SKB or Larry one of his other Libtard pals took a thread off-topic

Perhaps a nice picture of a coyote attempting to save a pheasant from freezing to death will lighten the mood here:

I learned it from you Stan. I followed your lead after all. Never would have thought to do so otherwise. You are a pretty good phony. I confess, you had me fooled for a while.

Don't forget to change that tag line, Brent. Wouldn't want you to appear a hypocrite.

SRH

Hey Stan, it's a bit early, but I'll keep watch for your count down to dove opener.

Hey Stan and craigd, check out how indignant BrentD is pretending to be about something that isn't strictly about guns...



Now check out BrentD gleefully making a post in the current totally off-topic thread about hickory shaft golf clubs...



BrentD made that comment about hickory golf clubs about 20 minutes before he was here in this thread bitching about posts that don't have anything to do with guns. This is rich... and proof you can't fix stupid!

Since Stevie has appointed himself as the Personal Attack Police Force, I assume he will have something to say about BrentD's attack on Stan.

I have "No Dog" in this fight- But being a long-in-the-tooth gun collector, favoring L.C. Smiths-- I felt "qualified" somewhat to comment on this fine looking Crown Grade 12- set up, IMO, for a live bird gun- especially the absence of a top tang safety. Smiths, like many other double guns from long-ago eras, have their "quirks", and also, like other gunsmiths from that era- the ranks of those gunsmiths who know these sidelock American produced doubleguns are getting thinner as time goes by.

But how in Blue Blazes did this thread drift in a "pissin' contest par excellence"-- and we ended up, or some of us anyway, into personal attacks on other members?? is beyond my limited understanding-

I sold a 3E 12 gauge to Stan a while ago-- and if and when I decide to offer for sale any other of my graded pre-1913 Smith 12 gauge shotguns, I have promised him that he will have "First right of refusal" on them-hands down. He is a gentleman of the first order-and I hate seeing his reputation attacked by anyone- RWTF