I am trying to figure out who made this and date of manufacture, caliber etc. I have looked all over this double and cannot find a maker, or even gauge. The left is 16 gauge, and the right probably 10mm .404 with a caliper. Here are a few pics, any help would be appreciated.


[img]https://imgur.com/jlrGSrE[/img]

Hello tal38
Welcome on your first posting
Nice firearm

You will need to remove the forearm, and take the barrels
away from the action.

On the underside of the barrels will be proof marks

Belgium marks are like this

https://www.shotguns.se/html/belgium.html

Please post pictures of the proof marks

Again, Welcome
Mike

Thanks Mike! I will take it down. Any place in particular on the underside? I looked there before but could have missed it. I'm sorry for the previous blurred pic. It is a beautiful looking weapon. It does have a peep sight that pops up when you press a button. Is the method of takedown for reloading uncommon? It has what looks like bonethat sits below the forearm that turns 90 degrees to open it.

Nice gun, probably German or Austrian from the style and the engraving.

The Proof Marks (under the breeches and on the action flats) should tell us more.

Those pop-up peep sights, later found on some Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifles, are sometimes called Baillie-Grohman sights after the author of “Sport in the Alps” who claimed he had invented them.

Do pleasure us with some fotos of the >>Pop-Up<< sight. Interesting novel addition of the hook on the trigger-guard-bow.

It is more than likely of Germanic origin, a Büshflinte-Sorte, Cape-Gun on a Casimir Lefaucheux Platform. More than likely made in Zella Sankt Blasii - Mehlis or possibly Suhl. Probably a 10mm BPE variety.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Actually in the Basement German & Austrian Section we recently had a discussion on the longevity of the Lefaucheux Platform and how the Huskys were produced up to say the 2nd Major Disagreement in Europe(WWII).

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=633732#Post633732

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

And if the tubes are fluid steel, which they appear to be from the couple fotos, then they are becoming rare with a small additional intrinsic value due to the development of the H-Bomb and testing, WWII and Post.....

https://www.newsbreak.com/news/3132...ng-it?noAds=1&_f=app_share&s=a99


https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=634675&page=1

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I have spun fotos of these characters like a top, but I still cannot make it out.



Could you pleasure us with fotos the water-table & standing breech?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

You will have to make a chamber cast to determine the kalibre. You can lube the chamber & use wax from a significant other's candle stash for a rough idea.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Too, it is not Austrian but German & was made prior to 1891. Looks to have seen little use?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

what is water table and standing breach?

Water-Table on Pinfire lifted from here:

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=574708&page=3


Standing Breech


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

pic from microscope

I looked at both places under the microscope and there no markings. So, if it was built before 1890 would it be a damascus barrels?

Very excellent effort on the >>0.S.<<. That would have been the tubeset knitter.

No, pre-1891 does not mean it would wear pattern welded tubes. From the time of the Colt Peacemaker, Germany was supplying GußStahl(Cast Steel) to the U.S. of A. and parts elsewhere.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Zella - Mehlis mechanics Oswald Suchardt is a prime candidate as he was active in the 1880s forward.

Oskar Schilling of Suhl might fit the bill.

Oskar Schüler of Suhl too fills the slot but I am not sure how many he made as he may have been more or a manger?

And I am sure there may be other Oskar S., Oswald S., and Otto S.,.......

But if the longarm were made in Zella - Mehlis, I think the deck to be stacked in Oswald Suchardt's favour.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Still I would fancy seeing the water-table & associated action well.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Here are some pics, I have not cleaned it up yet and really dont know how much to mess with it.



[img]https://i.imgur.com/Tkom3D5.jpg//[/img]

Hammers are rebounding and the strikers are small so it was made in the late 1880s or very early 1890s. The striker holes are well formed and many of the other components looks to have little wear. From the engraving including the screw holding the forend iron, I would hazard a guess it came from Zella Sankt Blasii -Mehlis and that Oswald Suchardt played a large part in the construction. He may not have been the GC(General Contractor) but he was involved. I am a huge fan of such Biks(Biksarica)/Büshflinte-Sorte/Combos as they are very useful and handy. The rifled tube is probably Gußstahl/Cast Steel and the scattergun tube is more than likely Fluid Steel. Live Large with it in Good Health as the new Custodian.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

My friend I got it from wanted me to sell it for him. He is 88 and it was probably his fathers, I just didnt know ANYTHING about it, its a beautiful gun, but has a chip out of the toe. The workmanship is really good! Thanks to all for the history and trying to ID it for me.
To re-cap, it is probably German and probably made by Zella Sankt Blasii -Mehlis? Have you seen anything like this sell? I am tempted to buy it to keep but dont know what to value it at.

No, it is German and more than likely made in Zella - Mehlis in the late 1880s to very early 1890s. Unless there was an 0. Schilling, of which I am not aware, the barrels, barrel work & fitting the tubeset to the action was performed by Oswald Suchardt, as that was his craft. But it was made for a German retailer that didn't want a mark on it to prove that he didn't dig up the Raw Earth components by hand, smelt & forge it all and then had fit all the parts. The German retailer also had a Rubberplant tree in his back yard from which he made the buttplate, if not horn. If horn, then he personally shot the Buffalo and cut the horns himself to make the buttplate. The German Retailer also had a Walnut tree in his backyard from which he sourced the wood. That's what they wanted the end custodian to think.....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Here is the buttplate, it is steel, sorry I should have posted a picture of it. Was there ever anything under the buttplates?

Yes, sometimes there are initials or numbers penned on the wood under the buttplate. But on steel, many times there are clues on it too, like in the oval on the lower portion shown here. Occasionally a trademark is etched on the steel....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

All that is in there is the s/n

I was guessing Ferlach but that would be Austrian, the quality is certainly as good as some of the Ferlachs I've seen. I've also seen some fantastic guild guns which can be very hard to put a name to but can be very high quality., nice gun.

An Austrian longarm from the same period would war proofmarks.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

An attractive and interesting gun, and a slightly shocking novelty (for me at least) to see something without proof marks. Thankyou for showing it to us.