I'm not getting a response to these stock finishing questions in the thread below so I thought I would post it as a separate thread.

Over the last two months I have been testing various finishing methods based on the red oil and slacum information I have found on this site. I have a few questions for those of you that have used red oil and slacum for a while. My refinishing experience has been limited to about 15 guns over a number of years and finishes included varnishes, tung oils, Timberluxe, Tru-Oil, Pro-Custom Oil and Dem-Bart oil. So, I am not a rookie, but I certainly am not a professional. By the way, I'm a biologist by degree but a chemist for 35 years by profession.

First I would like to explain how I am testing the various slacum and slacum blends. All of the various slacum blends were tested on 3” x 5” flat pieces of walnut. I cut them from a number of plaques I picked up at sporting clays events over the years. In all, I have used about 25 of these walnut boards with different finishes. All of these boards were sanded smooth to 800 grit and prepped the same. I varied how many coats of red oil I applied on a number of the boards to see how the grain came out and I tried a number of different methods of application including trying to dry under UV light, rubbing down with steel wool or emery cloth between coats of finish oil to fill pores. I have tried or am trying a blend of the typical slacum (BLO, Carnauba wax, terp and Venice terp) on it's own and mixes of slacum with tung oils, Minwax Antique Oil finish, Master Pro Gel and with some red oil mixed in. The tung oil and Minwax AO were tried at a couple different concentration with slacum. All were applied after a number of coats of red oil we're rubbed in and dried. I have even tried talc to fill pores and heating the solutions before application. I used just tung oil and Minwax Antique oil over red oil on some boards as a comparison. At this point, I am still working on these samples so I am not prepared to discuss all the results. I can say that some have turned out pretty good and others were failures. I learn something new every day about the various finishing products and how to apply them for the best finish.

The questions I have are:
1) Do you rub in the finish oils after they have become tacky and after they have dried, just before the next coat? Some people rub it in by hand and others use a cloth with some of the finish oil on it. What's best?

2) Do you find that the stock color lightens or darkens after more coats of the finish oil?

3) Have you tried adding some red oil in the finish oil? Is so, how much and what have your results been. Does it tend to hide the grain?

4) Do you allow the slacum to completely dry between coats? Sometimes I find that it is still tacky the next day. Is that from putting it on too thick? As I get more and more coats of finish oil on, it takes more drying time. Does it need to completely dry with no tackiness between coats?

Once I am finished with this testing I would be happy to give you more details about my methods, formulas and results and what I plan to put on a new (old) William Evans I picked up recently.

Any suggestions or helpful comments?

Tom,
If you like, give me a call sometime 262 662 9990 or leave a msg.
I am in Big Bend, WI

Good questions as I have the same concerning slakum. I am in the process of finishing a 16 ga LC Smith with it and had the gumming up issue. Ended up wiping it off and letting it set and dry for about a year. Dried hard as a rock and beautiful but hard to let one set that long to dry between coats.

AhhHa Grasshopper! May be a look in the frequently asked questions section of this forum especially the post "damasscuses Traditional Oil Stock Finish" that I am sure it will answer a good number of questions on the how, when and why.

damascus

From another recent post, here are links to two of the most useful resources you will find for a true, traditional slakum finish.

The second link is to the thread damascus referenced above.

Another resource that I found useful and clear is the e-book by Nik Kypridemos.
https://www.amazon.com/Linseed-Oil-Finish-simple-rubbed-ebook/dp/B01GMSSNUC

I think the Diggory recipe is also in James Howe’s Modern Gunsmith, with several modifications. I remember someone responding as such in the above cited post.

I. Have minimal experience compared to most of the posters, but here’s something from my experience. Some years ago I was finishing an American Walnut rifle stock with one of the multi part slacum type products. The surface seemed to remain tacky for extended periods. A friend suggested using Japan Drier to wipe down the tacky surface , The result was a very dry feeling , smoother surface within a few hours.

Hi--Anyone use carnuba wax mixed with tung oil??
Sydney

Over the years I've developed a pretty simple system with no exotic or secret ingredients. It's easy, quick, fast, durable, looks good to me and can be repaired, if needed. If I want stain, I treat the wood with oxalic acid, then use alkanet soaked in turpentine and oil (linseed, teak, tung or other commercial oil). If that doesn't get the color I want (some woods just don't seem to take the color for me), then I use analine dye. Use either until you get the color you want.
I then sand in with 320 to 400 grit sandpaper a mix of approx. 1/3 turpentine, 1/3 oil (teak, linseed, tung or other commercial product) and 1/3 flat or satin poly followed by wiping. Recoat until the pores are filled. Then I rub in the finish repeatedly with pumice/rottenstone and wipe dry with paper towel or old t-shirt. Repeat until you get the final finish you desire.
I've found that a day between coats usually allows sufficient drying time for the sanded coats and for the rubbed coats, and usually 5 or 6 coats is sufficient to fill the pores and a few rubbed coats achieve the results I want. If it later needs to be redone, you can just rub in a coat of the finish.
Of course, then I usually see a minor change I want to make in the shape. Fortunately, you can rasp and sand the area you want to change and can repeat the process on only the area from which you have removed the finish, and the patch blends in well altho you might have to extend the rubbing into the finished area.

cpa, that's similar to the P. Pilkington method. I have a Parker that was refinished using Pilkington's method and it is easily the finest finish on any gun I have ever owned. He called it the Classic American Oil Finish. It will unquestionably be what I use from here on out.

SRH

Sydney,

The Diggory formula calls for Carnuba with linseed as does Damascus’s formula. It has to be heated to if I remember correctly 160 degrees F with other ingredients.

I've started to refinish the William Evans I mentioned. After stripping, I applied 3 coats of red oil (BLO and alkanet). I am now on my 5th coat of my slacum/tung oil combination. My base slacum consists of 16 ounces (473 ml) BLO, 25 ml turpentine, 10 grams dry carnuba wax and 10 ml of concentrated venice terpentine. For some reason, my first batch of this did not work out properly as it looked like the carnuba precipitated out and settled to the bottom of the container. The next batch, I heated longer and this one has been pretty stable for more than 6 weeks now.

My final finish product is 75% slacum mixed with 25% Minwax tung oil. I only make down about 20 ml at a time. This combination seemed to give me the sheen I was looking for, a reasonable drying time and a finish hardness that should provide adequate protection and ease of repair or refinish if needed.

Each morning, I add and rub in a very small amount of this final finish and let it sit for 30-45 minutes. Then I take a 1” square of cloth (old T shirt cut into pieces) and add a very small amount of the slacum mix to act as a lubricant and rub the stock and forend down. Then it hangs for the next 24 hours.

So far, so good. The red oil really brought the dark grain out. I'll let you know how it goes.

Any advice??

Dennis P - thanks for the offer. I will try to call you this week.

Hi when mixing the carnauba wax into the oil how hot is the oil??
Thanks Sydney

I heated, like Tom, to well above 160. I do not know how high in F because the thermometer read only to160, but I cooked it for a good 25-30 minutes in a double boiler with a rolling water boil till I could not see any more Carnuba flakes in the mix. It does take a good 24-30 hours to dry per application. I added Japan dryer as per the recipe and Venice turpentine but not regular turpentine. I was thinking a making up another with Tung, rather than BLO, and doubling the Dryer to accelerate the application process and durability.

Hi--I m having trouble locating Venice turpentine and wondering
what it adds to the product
using tung oil in place of BLO is interesting as i have
used tung oil on other projects
Please let me know about the tung oil mix
thanks Sydney

I got mine from a vet supply. Here is a link to an art supply house. I'll defer to the others on describing what it adds to the finish.

https://www.dickblick.com/products/senne...kRoCkm8QAvD_BwE

Here's what the website says it adds for artists:
Add to oil paints, mediums and varnishes for an exquisite jewel-like quality and tough, enamel-like surface.

Derived from European larch trees, this resin has the consistency of honey and is offered in its pure, undiluted state. Dilute with 20% turpentine and use sparingly to a 5% maximum of the total paint mixture.

It can also be found in tractor/always supply stores. It is apparently used to coat horses hooves and protect from insects. Mine came via eBay from San Diego, larch resin, smells a little like pine turpentine. Ernie, aka Damascus, said in his posting it adds durability.

Here's where I was able to find many of the products needed. https://woodfinishingenterprises.com/

The venice turpentine is a plasticizer. It makes the finish more flexible and less brittle.

I suggest making the slacum outside or in an open garage. It has a pretty strong odor when you are heating it. I heated it for about 45 minutes to a very slow boiler. I still get a very small amount of precipitate in the bottom of the jar but just shake it up before making down my small mixes.

I spoke to Dennis Potter yesterday and he was very helpful. He has much more experience than I do. He gave me a better understanding of ”rubbing out” the finish using a small piece of cloth covering a small eraser and rubbing with rotten stone and slacum. I tried it today with very good results.

Tom,

Did the rubbing out enhance or reduce the gloss.

Susjwp - the rubbing out does dull the finish some. I am going to rub out with the small cloth square and eraser with rotten stone and finish material about every 5 coats. The others I will gently rub out with just a cloth and a very small amount of finishing material. I am trying to fill the pores with the thickened, partially dry finish material. I notice I get a little more gloss with just the cloth rub out and even more gloss if I don't rub out at all. I am trying to minimize the total buildup on the stock so the color comes through better.

I do find this grouped of postings extremely interesting for a number of reasons so I kept my comments to when it slowed down. I have framed my interest as a number of questions.
Why the fascination with “Slakum” because at the time of its sort of its inception Our queen Victoria was on the throne so let’s say before nineteen hundred though she did not slip off her mortal coil until nineteen hundred and 1. So we are talking about a finish made up of ingredients available a hundred years ago so considering the type of finishes we have today it is rather low on the performance list. UNLESS you want to provide a vintage gun with a true vintage finish. My question is if you spent a lot of money and a considerable amount of time restoring a vintage car would you re spray it with cellulose or two pack paint?
Venice turpentine or the not so high class name “boiled Larch Sap” at the time of its use in the eighteen hundreds it worked well but not brilliantly and today good for Horses hoof’s and Artists to give body to oil paint, though what seems to be left out of information regarding a finish using Venice Turpentine is that the stock needs to have a little Linseed Oil to be applied a couple of times a year to keep the finish up to a serviceable level and of course look good. Though this is not a bad thing because Slakum and oil finishes are in the wood and not on the top.
The REAL magic for a formula associated with gun stock finishing oil is 1 : ! : I from all the way back in time to the days of sailing ships and the mean penny pinching British Admiralty, because they had this large problem of ships Spars rotting and over time they came up with a viable cure to slow the rot down, Spar is the clue for this rot cure are you with me? SPAR VARNISH!!!! At the time made up from one part Copal one part Tung Oil one part Turpentine, though all far too expensive for the money saving Admiralty after a time things where adjusted to Copal Linseed Oil cheap home produced rather than oil from at the time China and still keeping Turpentine.
This varnish was so good at wood protection that it did not take long for it to be used for wood protection and of course keeping the Brit weather out of gun stocks amongst all the other things. Now the 1 : !: 1 ratio came up again and still used today for modern gun stock finishing oil, one part spar varnish one part turpentine substitute (mineral spirits) one part linseed oil with as many tweaks to the mix formula as grains of sand in a bucket from different makers.
I will just give one example though there are hundreds. If you obtain the Health and Safety certificate (that is what they are called here), this is it in a nut shell 56% Mineral Spirits. 33% Modified Oil. 11% Linseed Oil from a large selling brand.
I won’t paint the whole picture but I am sure that it is not a huge mental leap to figure out that modified oil is, other than one with a form of resin incorporated. It is good to see that the subject of stock finishing oils is still a hot topic still and the way it has been talked about since the true protection of gunstocks was needed and my personal thought on this is from the time when expensive pieces of Walnut started to be fitted to guns.
So please experiment but please look forward and not back in time and experiment with modern products though please keep the tried and tested oils to give that satin look, but use the waxes as a final dressing on the finish because that is where they work the best if you put them in they reduce the overall effectiveness

As I mentioned, I am but a poor amateur. There are many much more experienced people here than me. I love to tinker and experiment and I thought it would be nice putting a period appropriate finish on a very old gun. Since I couldn't make it with all the exact ingredients of the original formulas I started to modify it to give me the same low gloss finish that would accentuate the grain.

So, please take anything I say with the understanding that it may not be the best advice. I love reading most posters here, especially the ones I know can walk the walk and talk the talk.

As a relative newcomer to the discussion, I really enjoy the many perspectives and 'overhearing' the conversation between amateurs and professionals and 'the old guard'.

My feeling is this: the discussion about finishes is similar to the discussion about guns in general. There is something to be said for simple aesthetics and tradition. As Damascus suggested, vintage for vintage is a reasonable choice.

Consider why we in this forum choose to shoot side by side shotguns in the first place. Yes, there are a few practical advantages, but it's really difficult to argue that a vintage sxs is superior to the latest cerakoted auto loader, when it comes to pure function.

Similarly, when it comes to finishes, from a purely practical standpoint, the latest coatings undoubtedly outshine any of the older formulas, but they also - from what I have seen - do not match the aesthetic feel of the old oil formulas. That may be romantic imagination on my part. If so, I've had that idea since before I knew what I was looking at: I remember, as far back as high school days in the 1990s, looking at high end guns in magazines and wondering how the finish could be so deep and clear.

A question for Damascus: since your slakum finish is one that folks reference frequently, are you suggesting that we should be using something more modern? Or is the addition of copal enough to replicate the old spar protection? In other words, why go to all that trouble when there are commercial spar/oil finished available?

On a related question:. Am I wrong to think that the majority of high end gunmakers in Britain at least, are using an 'old fashioned' linseed oil based finish even today?

And a final question:. I understand that varnishes could keep ship parts from deteriorating, but is that level of protection really necessary for a gun, particularly a fine gun that is mostly kept clean and dry?

I suspect that the quality of a finish or refinish job is more in the application technique rather than the products that are being used. I spent 35 years in the industrial water treatment chemical field. I always felt that I could use many different products and produce very good results. It's how they were applied that made the biggest difference. I believe there are a number of professionals and experienced amateurs here that can do the same with a gun stock.

I think there is quite a bit of range in what’s considered a varnish, and they are not necessarily different from what’s called an oil gunstock finish. Assuming a decent natural wood stock, I would think the primary reason for using a varnish is the ability for the finish to cure in a timely manner, aesthetic potential, and ultimate protection might be a lesser true need.

Woodreaux. The rather long posting of Damascuses traditional oil stock finish was in part a history in the reason behind how stock finishes evolved, also how to achieve the finish using the best traditional mixtures. If you also read the article through I suggested a method how to make a finish using modern varnish instead of going to the trouble of going down the Copal road. Using Copal is just one ingredient Amber works well and so does Pine Resin. In my posting my aim was to give all the information on how to produce a traditional finish. Woodreaux you seem to be fixated on the finishing oil rather than the full how to get there using traditional grain filler red oil etc of my posting, so your question about why go to the trouble? You go to all the trouble and the knowhow to put a traditional finish on a gun stock, but if you dont want to go to all that trouble that is your choice and True Oil is always available. I think you will find that real Spar Varnish is not that easy to obtain because makers use synthetic resins, Copal is far to expensive to be used in bulk varnish manufacture that is why I gave instructions how to make it.

Indeed, I have not seen spar without polyurethane in a decade. I used get lucky occasionally by watching the odd lot specials as local hardwares cleaned put their basements and shed storage. No more. I used the 1:1:1 ratio for a long time, especially on muzzleloaders.

Maybe I mis-communicated. I certainly didn't mean to be disagreeing. In fact, after reading your post on traditional finishing, I printed it out and bought all the ingredients that I didn't already have on hand. But your last post seemed to be suggesting that the traditional finishing methods should be abandoned in favor of "looking forward".

Before I dumped my copal and talc in the trash, I thought I should ask you for a clarification.


(I'll switch to a poly based finish when I decide to use my gun for double duty as a boat paddle).

The two products in the photograph can be used to put a passable finish on a gun stock. Now I am not saying that I give them my stamp of approval though what I will say they are food for thought and further experimentation. I am sure that you will be able to purchase both products but under different manufactures names. As you can see they are sanding sealers and these two products do that extremely well and with a little practice you can come up with a good looking stock finish from beginning to end in four hours using the cellulose and a day using the shellac version.
The cellulose dries so fast that it is doing it as you apply it and being sandable within a couple of minutes, the shellac version is a little slower, they also lend themselves to being coloured. They in their nature fill moderate grain you can also mix Talc with the shellac version for grain filling though the cellulose is a flash drying product difficult to add filler and use.
Method I used, seal the wood with a couple of coats sand to the wood surface fill the grain sand again to the wood surface then add other coats until the stock shows no grain and feels smooth. Finally mat the surface with "OOO" steel wool then use a magnet to remove steel woo whiskers from the wood then polish with three coats of Linseed oil and Wax polish allowing drying time between each coat.
You can leave the wax polish out for a time and put a couple of coats of Linseed oil with dryers though this will lengthen the time, out of the two sealers the shellac gets my vote for ease of use.
Traditional it is not, but the look of the finished product will be passable to most folks, and others will hate it only if they know how the results where achieved.

Is your "linseed oil" boiled or raw ?

I do not use paint store oils at all. I prefer to purchase edible flax seed oil as used for culinary purposes because the quality is far superior also being much lighter in colour than oils sold in paint stores. I add my own lead based dryers because I have a gallon of it also I find it performs far better than the modern dryers you purchase today.

Well after a month of "Lock Down" boredom started to set in so I decided to add some more to this thread in the way of explanation about my thinking of modern finishes for modern guns. Also I want to show that a modern finish can look as good as a hundred plus years finish. Things all went very quiet when I posted the picture of sanding sealers so I thought I should show what they are capable of. So not wanting to make things easy I decided to finish a piece of timber that has been seasoning in my workshop for a couple of years, it is in fact a part of the direction wedge removed from a large Oak that out grew its allotted space in my garden. So the piece of oak was left under a pile of leaves for a year to hopefully develop some fungus grain interest.
To start I removed the chainsaw marks with P80 paper on a disk sander and followed with P100 by hand well it was all end grain and I was after smooth not perfectly flawless.
In the first side picture the timber was given three raged on coats of "Shellac Sealer" half hour between coats then a light sanding with P150 then one raged on coat of "Linseed Oil" with driers then twelve hours later another coat of "Linseed Oil" left overnight in a warm place then given two applications of Linseed and Carnauba wax polish all completed in a day and a half.



The other side was given the same treatment as far as the P150 though using the Cellulose sealer and wax polish. Now this has the same quality surface finish as the Shellac sealer but the Cellulose Sealer imparts no colour to the wood. This is not altogether a bad thing especially if you want to give the wood a colour of your own choice and of course, this finish will not change it. Using the Cellulose sealer from start to finish was half an hour.
One thing I have found that I am incapable of photographing surface sheen on wood though it is there and all the grain is filled to perfectly smooth.



This is all just another way of looking at finishing wood.

Thanks for the follow up Oak test piece damascus, it looks like an interesting finishing challenge. I'd suspect pictures may not tell the whole story, but I think I can appreciate how the oil finish picks up contrast in the grain. Aside from grain filling, I'd think that test piece benefits from sealing in that I suspect detail might be lost from uneven penetration if an oil alone was used. Only guessing, thanks again.

damascus, part of the reason for the silence may be due to many of us never having heard of sanding sealers.

But if you can fill oak pores that easily with it, walnut should be little problem.

I do see that it is carried by at least a few supply houses (Lee Valley being the first one that I found).

thanks.

Brent
PS. Finding a decent Spar varnish even with polyurethane, is about impossible, locally. the stuff I bought last week is atrocious.

Do not use sanding sealers with stearic acid in it with any polyurethane finish.
Finish will come off in sheets. Had this discussion with Sherwin-Williams several years ago.
They did make it right, paid for stripping and new finish material.
Chuck

Stearic Acid is found in in Vegetable oils and in checking Linseed oil does have between 4 & 5% though much lower than in Animal Fats. Polyurethane is the kiss of death to coin a phrase for gun stocks because it dries so hard and brittle that it will not allow the natural seasonal movement of wood without cracking also not allowing the passage of water vapour in or more importantly out, in fact the wood is held in an impervious box. Though I do not have any idea of the formulation of sanding sealers though I have been using them for some twenty five years now with no problems covering them, though I will not use any finish containing Polyurethane for Wood.