here is a link

Amoskeag

Big chance to pick up a Wundhammer with provenance…
Some nice S&W an Colt DAs lots single shots & cool Springfields.

A lot of the rifles and pistols at this auction were owned by the late Michael Petrov and his late gunsmith friend John Wills.

Harry

Amoskeag had a few of the rifles on display on their tables at the Tulsa Gun show. There are some absolutely stunning firearms from John Wills and Michael's collections. They had a few catalogs available at the show and I have already spent a number of hours just looking at those beautiful rifles and would love to be at the auction, but will not be able to make it. From early magnificent single shots to early custom bolts, something for all of us.
Richard

Jason and the gang at Amoskeag run a great auction co,this will be the first 2 day one.
Been going to his Auctions since 1998 just small black and white catalogs then and one small area in the Mills,man have they grown.

interesting...i too attend amoskeag auctions...

Anyone else having trouble getting on the site?

John

yes its down

Catalogs came yesterday huge one 465 pages and larger like the 100th one.

Beautiful rifles, but there is the problem with this kind of collecting focus that, in that period, so many high end American custom rifles would inevitably be 1903 Springfield actions chambered in .30-06. How many '06s would one possibly be willing to own?

Michael Petrov clearly did not find that kind of duplication a problem. I haven't finished going through the catalog, but there must be more than 6 .30-06 Wundhammers and even more Griffin & Howes. And I thought I had too many rifles!

I believe the .22 Pump [REM. MOD. 12 ?] belonging to R.G. Owen THAT SOMEONE MENTIONED MIGHT BE GOING TO PETROV'S SISTER,I believe is on the auction. At least I think it was it, I'm not sure, not being a follower of this auction. HTH

Lot 465 ? Maybe thats the one your looking for,its a Rem mod 12 from that collection.

The Remington Model 12 / Remington>>>R.G.Owen>>>Charles Sheldon>>>Michael Petrov that we have all seen on this forum is the one listed. Michael had another, Remington 12C NRA Target that he had when he was a kid. That rifle he told me would go to his sister or daughter. The R.G.Owen rifle is so unique because he had so much correspondence between Mr. Owen and Mr. Sheldon where the specific rifle was mentioned. Truly thorough and rich provenance.

…and my favorite.
At my request, Michael brought the Owen M-12 to Reno for the ACGG show when we had the retro custom display. It added another element of variety to the display.
In this vein we had a discussion about a Winchester M-61 as a possible project something I gave a lot of thought to.
Owen's letter about selling this rifle to buy fine walnut could have been written by any custom gunmaker from any era.

I didn't know that Amoskeag is also on proxibid, here is the link
so that we can watch the prices,

amoskeag

At one time Michael had a Newton rifle in 30-06 that Alvin Linden had stocked. It is not on the auction list. Does anyone know what happened to it?

Also, Does anyone happen to have a picture of it? I thought I did but evidentely I don't as I can't find it.

Idared, I'm pretty sure Michael traded or sold that one a little over a year ago, but I don't no who has it. I had handled it but decided I didn't want it. There's a pic in his first book page 57.
Or try this.. http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=116938&page=1
Dan.

Dan

Thanks so much for passing on that information, I appreciate it.

Michael at one time hinted that he might do a "Coffee Table Book" in full color of the rifles he had photos of. I had rat-holed a fair amount of money and was eagerly awaiting the day that it would come. Unfortunately, I didn't keep enough copies of the photos he did post on here and other places. The link you provided still had the photos of Art Vinje's Linden Rifle which is a great thing.

I am most thankful for the books of his which were published.

Many thanks again, Larry

Unless I'm mistaken, the Lot 258 Wundhammer is a project gun created by Michael for a Wundhammer stock that he had and is chronicled at:
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9411043/m/971104608/p/1

This has been brought to Amoskeag's attention as they seem to think this is an authentic Wundhammer.
Dennis

Last night I went to Amoskeag and visited with Michael's rifles for about an hour, the only time I have this week to get down to Manchester.. Not nearly enough time and very overwhelming to see so many fine rifles in one place. I wish I had had the opportunity to visit with him in person and view his collection as some of you have! I have his books and have followed his posts on this forum eagerly awaiting each new photo. I knew he had an exceptional collection, but seeing them in person is impressive and is a reminder of how research is yet to be done!

I had several conversations with Michael over the last three or four years comparing features of several unknown sporters and he helped out with several purchases. He was generous with his time and his knowledge, for which I am very grateful-I learned a great deal from him.

Good luck to those bidding, I hope that the rifles stay with the folks on this forum. I won't be bidding, a new roof and and two young kids at home has wiped out this years fun money! The best I can hope for is to discover a new treasure on my own or that some of these turn up at auction again when I have money!

For what its worth, and this surprised me, I think the Ross King sporter was my favorite. Of course, if I went thru them all again, I might change my mind. Did Michael have a favorite?

-Tom

Tom, You should try to go see Michaels collection one more time before it is spread across all four corners off the earth.Truly amazing to see so many custom 03s in one room..... If you do, dont pass by a Harvey Rogers!!!!One of my favorites!
As for Michael I would say something Neidner/Shelhamer or a shotgun from Schaefer of Boston. Dan.

Tom,

Here is the list of what Michael intended to keep when he knew he had to start selling his collection. Somewhere among them would be his ultimate one "keeper"!

I suspect Dan has it right, either a Neidner/Shelhamer rifle or a Schaefer gun.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=381779&page=3

There is a similar situation with Lot 257, "Custom 1903 Springfield Magazine Sporting Rifle By Alois Koshollek". This rifle started out as a stock Michael aquired and at first thought it might be made by Emil Koshollek.

It was discussed HERE

I don't know if Amoskeg meant for it to sound like Emil worked on the rifle being auctioned off, but when I read the description it sure sounds that way to me. I know Michael was concerned that rifles he put together would be mistaken for originals and it looks like he had valid concerns.

At any rate I will be curious to see what it sells for. I'd love to have it but I dislike bidding over the phone on live auctions.

Thank for posting that Terry - very interesting. I'm embarrassed to so say that I missed that post, deer season has taken over my interest and most of my spare time.

Does anyone know if Michael specified that his guns sell in one auction? Seems to me prices would be better for his estate if they were spread out over several auctions.

-Tom

"Does anyone know if Michael specified that his guns sell in one auction? Seems to me prices would be better for his estate if they were spread out over several auctions."

I have often wondered about that myself, some collections-like the Stretch Kennedy one,must be spread out over several but with the Petrov one and others that size-and focused,there may be a case that bringing all the buyers to one auction might well create higher bids-you don't get lot 25 so you bid higher on lot 50 for instance.
Amoskeag has done a great job on the larger catalog and I think the 2 day-his first will work out well.
I have seen them have "feeding frenzy" buyers when a large collection of Savage 99's or others again focused ones have gone in one auction.Lets hope it does so for this one.

Not sure how we could prove it one way or the other but it is a good question.
Good luck with the deer hunting Tom,wind blew me out of the woods this morning,will rest up for the 2 days in my "auction stand" now and back at it next week.

"Does anyone know if Michael specified that his guns sell in one auction?"

I think the fact that Michael had produced a list of "keepers" implies he planned to sell about 2/3 of his collection and hold back the "keepers" to a later date. His untimely death,of course,changed that.

I, too, hope having the whole collection at once is not "too much of a good thing", but a few more days will tell us the answer to that. I suppose we can judge by the percentage of the rifles that sell below,with-in or above estimate as a determiner of whether there were too many at once.

What happened to the Hoffman falling block .22 LR target rifle? I did not see it listed.

Michael sold that rifle a few years ago.

John

A post-war pre-model S&W 357 Mag went for some $26,000+ at Amoskeag, estimate 4-6,000. Rumor has it MPs stuff is not setting records??

I hope some of the members here, picked up a few of these rifles today. I was surprised that many did not pull the prices that I thought they would and seemed to be really good deals. But then I was interested in some of the custom guns by Niedner that I thought would bring more money. Doc Baker's (my favorite) double set trigger Borchardt with the cocking knob only brought $3250. Many of the custom 03's didn't bring near as much either.. You can go to the Proxibid website and see the posted prices.

Steve,

It's over and for the most part his stuff did not meet the low estimate. There were exceptions, with some items going over the high. I was fortunate and will be the caretaker for a while of lots 421 & 668, the Stoeger and the Singer (at least MP's best deductions) along with an interesting 1917 lot 698. That pricy S&W along with the first John Wills pistol made me nervous about things being high, the first batch of rifles were dead on as far as the estimated price and then it seems that they may have overestimated the MP association value. I can’t see but how it couldn’t have helped, but if you can second guess auctions, you are a better man than most. LOL

Did you know one of your 1877 Sharps was on Carol Watson’s auction today? Brought $12,000 + fees to an onsite bidder.

Thaine

That was some S&W,I it was a 4-6K estimate too !
A redone Parker VHE 410 that was restocked that went for 18.5 (one of Stretch's)

It did seem as if a lot of the Petrov collection went below the low estimate,some when higher (334 @6k +)and some in between.
There were a lot of pre64 Win-many in the box(also from Alaska I think)they went pretty strong.
A couple of nice Rigby's the 416 went strong (lot 394 @25k).Not many attended lots of room in the gallery-had a whole row to myself,but the phones and internet were very active.

I wasn't in the mood to buy but did watch and thought the prices were quite reasonable which probably isn't the best for the family. Only time I wasn't watching was while I ran out to the gun store to pickup my new rifle that just arrived from Idaho.

If you just had a crystal "auction" ball

I haven't looked at the S&W that sold for so much, but I don't know that the Parker .410 was restocked. I think the Parker was original all the way. I was hoping to get it on the cheap based on the questionable description. It didn't work out, nor did my bid on the Owen .22 Remington. The value of the early 20th century Springfield sporting guns is an emotional thing, as is the guns' relationship to MP. I am one of those with those emotions, but I didn't buy a thing because I am gunned out. Bill Murphy

Bill,
here is the description from lot 220-if we are talking about the same Parker 410 (only 1 in that auction),stock and trigger guard redone:

http://www.amoskeagauction.com/104/220.html

" The stock is a marvelously crafted replacement as the original stock was a round knob pistolgrip. The triggerguard was flawlessly lengthened with the serial number hand engraved in the factory style with zigzag border. The watertable of this 000 frame features the milled lightening cuts. The stock is beautifully fit and formed and is correct in all regards including the perfectly fit doghead buttplate and shield shaped monogram plate in toeline."

While many of MP's rifles ended up under the low estimate, a couple went above the high estimate. It was my luck that both lots I was bidding on ended up over the high estimate (420 and 249) - though I think I got one of them.

To Terry's point, I can't decide if concentrating all the rifles in this one auction or spreading the wealth over a couple of auctions would have generated more dollars for the estate.

I believe most rifles were valued by Amoskeag according to the Petrov connection. My spectator's interest will be to see when they are offered for resale (and many will be) what that connection,proves to be worth.

Good morning from Manchester, NH !

It seemed to be all about condition with the single-shot rifles yesterday. There were a handful of smooth gray guns with excellent bores that went for too cheap. There were a few notable exception .

The pre-war Colt double action revolvers were the stars of yesterday and understandably so given the condition and rarity.

Yes, many of Michael's rifles sold slightly below the low estimates BUT they all sold for higher than Michael's estimates in his personal inventory list which was not provided to Amoskeag. They set the estimates themselves.

The crowd is much thinner than I expected with maybe more than half of the bids coming from phone bidders, absentee bidders and the interne . There are a few dealers in the audience but they are buying well known makers and are not bidding high.

Stay tuned for Day2

... Joe

Thanks for the update

Thanks for the update Joe. I was really pleased to get one of Michaels rifles.

Good luck on day #2.

Dave, the Parker was listed in Charlie Price's Serialization Book as being originally made with a pistol grip stock. I think that's where Amoskeag got the idea that the stock had been replaced. The "grip style" in the Serialization Book" is not at all reliable in the .410 category. Of course, I didn't see the gun, so can only guess. However, since it sold for over $20,000, I am sticking with my guess.

Joe,
"BUT they all sold for higher than Michael's estimates in his personal inventory list"
That is good to hear, at least there won't be any surprise for the family. Glad to see you made a "road trip" like we talked about, even if it was via air.
Thaine

Thaine, Joe,
I'm really pleased that you are on-site Joe! Thanks for the check-in.
I'm happy to hear the sales prices exceeded Michael's estimates, I'm often baffled by auction house pre-sale estimates, sometimes because they are low and sometimes…

The S&W guys were amazed at the bid on the 357, ($30000 after vig) but all agreed it was a rare bird and that the Colts attracted a revolver lover contingent.

Thaine,
I did know about that SDH Sharps '77 at Watson's: Madole metalwork, Ron Long rifled barrel and Eric Gold engraving, it's in my B&W book. An associate bid $11,000 and was disappointed.
They auctioned an SDH flint long rifle (surprisingly high $) and two High Walls last time that I didn't hear about till after, the HWs went very low.. All those rifles from an LA estate of a good friend and client; a patron really. There were more, some juicy ones I wonder about?

back from day 2,a los less bidders in the room today-but phones were very active as was the internet (beat me out at least 3 times on lots).

Bill I did go and "look" ( you could not touch the sold lots as they had a rope over them) again at that Parker 410 and that trigger guard-along with being redone sure shows that it was extended-real good job but its there and I can't see how anyone could have called that original who had the gun in his hands. The wood was hard to tell from that angle but when I looked at it yesterday,from what I recall(I have looked at a lot of guns last couple days) it seemed to be just as the description stated- replaced.I might even know who did it-if I find out I will let you know.

@ 18.5k (plus the vig)I know Stretch's estate is happy.

Nothing stood out today ,a couple lots were doubled the high but no 26 k Smiths.
Pleased the Petrov guns went higher then he hoped for,the estimates for those could have been hard to "comp".
Like Ken I was hoping that 420 lot was going to go in estimate range but it flew past my bid limit on it.

Well I bid on several rifles (absentee) and ended up with lot 379 a Hoffman Mauser! I may have a couple more if I was the tie breaker but I don't think so. I was kind of surprised at the prices myself considering the rifles were so well documented but it is nice that the family got what was expected. This will be my first and hopefully not last pre war custom to go into my collection. I know it sounds silly but besides obvious reasons I am partial to Hoffmans because of the Oklahoma connection.

Prior to the auction, I expected Michael's guns would sell too high so I decided to focus on Colts, particularly the King/Roper guns. As we now know, I had no idea what I was talking about and the exact opposite was the case. So I changed my plans and, with the help of a good friend in the audience, went on a bit of a shopping spree. I was able to buy both the RG Owen Springfields (Lots 191 and 380), the Heym (259), the G&H NRA Sporter (285), one of the Kirkwoods (305), the Winchester 52A (354), and one of the unmarked Springfields (424). I only wish I'd had deeper pockets to buy more.

We're all fortunate to have had Mike's guidance and benefitted from his passion for these pre-war custom classics. I'd just have preferred he hadn't left us so soon.

Shane

The wonderful William Schaefer Lot 249 (estimate $2k-$3k) never saw my bid ($4250)--it opened at $5k and closed at $5250--so something north of $6k when all is said and done. Michael would have enjoyed this since the Schaefer was marvelous.

Best

Berrien

Yeah, that is a nice Boston shotgun. It has dawned on me what we have gained from this auction. Those who bought the catalog have seen the color version of Michael's Volume 3. I got mine, now you go order yours. It is a great catalog. Bill Murphy

Shane:
You and I both bid the same amount on the RG Owen, Lot #380, the auctioneer took your bid rather than mine. After loosing that one, I decided to go on a lower priced shopping spree, and picked up one more.

Overall I was happy with Lot# 23, the battlefield pickup 03 done by Seymour Griffin, Lot# 303, Michael's personal 400 Whelen, and Lot# 422, the Aspinwall Kirkwood. There were certainly some bargains to be had, we will never get the chance again, but I wish I had bid on more.

Oh well, we can't own 'em all..................

I looked hard at lot #23 - really cool rifle - congrats.

Lot #23 was one of the first of Michael's rifles to be auctioned. It is always a conundrum to try and figure out how the auction will progress. I reluctantly held out for some later lots. Glad you got it.

I agree with Bill on the catalog. I usually don't order the paper catalog and just look online. I'm glad I ordered this one.

I get them all, great reference guides to keep up on prices.Almost hate to write in them.
I will say after carrying that one around (@4 pounds) for 2 days straight I was happy to put it down.

The results are posted. The beautifully-stocked Remington 12-C went for $2875. Townie Whelen's Wundhammer must have been withdrawn.

I noticed that many of the Petrov Springfield 03 custom rifles in the recent Amoskeag auction were built on the older "low number" actions, which raised a few questions:

1. Did Mr. Petrov regularly shoot these rifles with factory ammunition, or were they primarily collector's item due to their history, stock-maker, or barrel-maker?

2. Did the famous makers such as G&H, Sedgley, Neidner, etc. re-heat treat these older 1903 actions when converting them to custom rifles?

3. Did the "low number" 1903 actions significantly impact the auction prices?

These are the kinds of questions trolls ask, how about giving your opinions and your research first and then asking us what we think?

Since Michael is not here to offer his opinion, I'll just post his response to a previous poster who asked a similar question. His response to the heat treat issue is one of my all time favorite Michael Quotes.

posted 14 February 2008 23:45 Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by mrlexma:
I see from the serial number that it's a "low number" RIA rifle - below SN 285,507. I know that these rifles are hard to find, but wouldn't you prefer a higher number for safety reasons?



"Wundhammer IMO was one of the greatest American custom gunmakers of his day. He made over two-hundred custom sporters, today I know where nine are. This restoration project needs to be done right so the rifle that this stock will take needs the right type and vintage rifle. The one Safety Issue I have is that if I do this wrong the heat in hell might affect my safety.

Each person should educate themselves about the low-number 1903 Springfields and decide for themselves if they should shoot or not shoot. When I get a 1903 sporter I check the headspace, use modern brass and load to factory pressures, the serial number of the rifle is not a factor." Michael Petrov.

Hope that helps,
John Holliger

Hello Bob,
You wouldn't know who bought that converted Borchardt that was built for Dr. Baker would you? Michael kindly stripped it down and photographed the internals of the Breech Block for me. The only thing he didn't picture was the item a small through pin held in the area of the firing pin tip. Mike said he would strip it down again next time he had the rifle at the range, as he didn't know what the pin held either. Sadly he never did take it to the range again, he passed in just a few weeks after our communication.

If anyone knows who bought this 'one off' rifle or it was you who did, I'd be obliged if you could send me a PM with the particulars of the new owner as I'd like to get in contact with him. I thought whoever got it got a bargain. Thanks in advance.

Harry

The way I figure, low number Springfields, which were really brittle and going to blow up, have all blown up by now. The ones used in custom sporters by top end gunmakers have been carried in the field and fired for close to a century. They have not blown up yet, and my guess is they aren't going to.

Per the limited correspondence I had with him regarding low # Springfields, he did in fact shoot them with standard loads.

Not only did he shoot them he tried to get a few LN receivers to blow up without success and he posted his tests which were quite extensive.

Harry,
I don't know who bought the Doc Baker rifle but as we are both fans of the Borchardt, I would have certainly liked to have become its new owner. I just have never found myself able to bid online which is required to purchase a rifle like that along with the buyers fees, shipping, etc.

It is pointless to argue about LN Springfields. If you are worried, don't shoot them. Similar to the damascus barrel controversy with shotguns. There is no definitive answer to either subject.

I also wish I had bid on the Baker rifle. Never expected it to sell so low.

Hello Bob,
Re Doc. Bakers Rifle.

It was just a 'shot in the dark' question. I'll ask on the ASSRA Forum, someone there may know. If not, I'll get in touch with the Auction House, although I'm sure they get Pee'd Off with such questions from disappointed bidders. I was planning an article on this rifle, on how the conversion was done by Neidner, but without the missing details there isn't much point. Like you, I am fascinated by this 'one off' conversion. Michael told me that he didn't like stripping the breech block down after shooting because to re-assemble it required three hands at least, but he always did it.

Regards,

Harry

An anomaly seems to have cropped up with the Neidner Borchardt, I was making notes on some of the rifles from Michaels collection when I came to lot no 508. This is shown as a rifle built by Neidner and Stegall and is in .257 Roberts calibre. There is no mention of another that I can see today but I am certain there must have been another almost identical and that is the rifle built for Doc Baker, and that rifle was in .25 Krag. I am also certain that when the auction catalogue first came out the rifle in .25 Krag was shown and Doc Baker was mentioned as being the man it was made for, which sold for $3250 whereas lot 508 sold for $3737.50.

Now I know I'm old and probably getting senile and probably forgetful as well, but I corresponded with Michael re Doc Bakers rifle and he even sent me a photograph of a target he shot with it and the target is also marked .25 Krag.

Now the question arises, did Michael have two of these Niedner converted Borchardt's both with DST's and a manual cocking knob. I've certainly seen no mention of a 257 Roberts Borchardt by Michael and I have twice gone through the sales catalogue today without finding the 25 Krag.

Jo-Do can you help me out here please? Did Michael have two of these Neidner converted Borchardt's.

Harry

Harry,
Here is the link to the Niedner discussion. The .25 Krag is at the bottom of page 2. I remember discussion of a second rifle but I don't think Michael owned it.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=344630&page=3

Hello Harry ...

I am looking at Michael firearms spreadsheet and there isn't a lot of detail to go on. I see a few Borchardts on his list ...
1)Niedner's Borchardt Pope 38-72;
2)Niedner-Baker Borchardt (but no caliber or serial number);
3)custom Borchardt Long-Range by John Wills .45-70;
4)Borchardt .25 Krag

I don't know if rifle no.4 listed above was a Niedner rifle or not.

... Joe

#4 just had a Niedner Rifle Co barrel on it. I had it before Michael.

Joe D.,
Thanks for the information, much appreciated.

Bob S. Thanks you also my friend. That refreshed my memory.

Terry B. So rifle no.4 had a standard Borchardt action then, not a highly modified one? As shown in lot No.508 in the Amoskeag Sale Catalogue.

I have always believed that there was just the one Borchardt modified to Br. Bakers specification by Neidner and that was in .25" Krag. Now the possibility of another in .257" Roberts has come to light. So, have Amoskeag got it wrong (unlikely as they seem generally to be more knowledgeable than most Auction Houses)or is there more than one of these modified Borchardt's around?

I know this may seem insignificant to most but it's a question that had been driving me up the wall.

EDIT Terry, cancel that last request please, I have the problem solved. I am aware now it was a standard action on that .25 Krag Borchardt you sold to Michael.



Harry

Michael described the chambering of the Baker rifle as 25HP, which, while Krag based, might have confused the auctioneer causing them to misidentify it, especially if that is the barrel marking.

The difference between $3250 and $3737.50 is that the latter includes the 15% buyer's premium.

Hello Jim,

Thanks for your input, I'd come to the same conclusion, I compared the rifle in the sale with pictures Michael had sent me some time ago and the checkering on both fore arm and stock were identical. It has to be the same rifle. As you say it looks like the auction company weren't sure what it was, a pity they left out the reference to the original owner being Doc Baker out of the catalogue in the end, it would I believe have attracted higher bids than it obtained. I had also checked the original sale price I noted and multiplied it by 15% and got the same price as currently displayed. Now to try and find out who bought it.

Thanks to all who assisted, I'm grateful for your input.

Harry