Watched a show and they were reported to be reliable and "GI proof". Don't care about accuracy out to 500 yards. Just want something that will put lots of bullets in the air and not be any trouble to keep running.

Of course I want one that is semi-auto, don't have the license for the real one.

I found a couple on Simpson's website:

One made in Yugoslavia: http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.php?products_id=32592

One made in Russia: http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.php?products_id=32585

I know they are all over the net.

Thanks!

Mike

You do realize you linked two differnt SKS rifles...not AK47 types.

These preceded the AK47, fired the same rounds...designed by the same dude....but are very different.

I have one of the Chinese ones.

Those are both SKS's not AK's.

I had an SKS - fixed 10 round magazine. Very cheap gun with plinking accuracy that ran 100% of the time but I sold it to make room in the safe for a gun I wanted more than the SKS. OK, I badly, very badly "needed" a Miroku made Winchester 1885 High Wall in 45-70.

I've kept my AK - detachable 30 round magazines - it really can put rounds downrange. Cheap gun with plinking accuracy that also runs 100% and I'll keep it forever.

I've also kept my AR - detachable 30 round magazines - it really can put rounds downrange. Expensive gun with very good accuracy that also runs 100% and I'll keep it forever.

For just plain old fun shooting the AK is the rifle you desire.

boneheaddoctor -
The AK was primarily designed by M.T. Kalashnikov and Hugo Schmeisser. The SKS was designed by S.G. Simonov. Some SKS carbines are both very well made and accurate. Additionally, some SKSs were designed for use with detachable magazines. There was also a sniper version that used the same (PU) scope that is normally seen on the Mosin Nagant M91/30 sniper rifle. Some of the SKSs from China that were made for export to the US in the late 80s or early 90s are pretty sad. Those made in the 60s can be very nice.

I wish to hell I had started buying AK47's and 74's back in the 90's. I think they've outperformed the stock market.

Steve has essentially got it right. Both of these rifle are battle and time proven and essentially idiot proof. Back when I was doing a lot of firearms maintenance we used to joke that it you removed the top cover of an AK and just held it under a faucet then shook the loose water out it would run just fine!
Try this with an AR16 and you'll end up with a frozen up and inoperable rifle!
The AK47 in no accuracy queen but out to a couple of hundred yards it accurate enough for defensive work. It was designed with simplicity and minimal maintenance in mind and this was necessary considering the educational levels of the commie bloc country users plus the insurgent organizations they were passed out to on a wholesale basis.
Bottom Line: they're cheap, functional and require minimal maintenance and made a good choice as a defensive weapon.
Jim
They are no longer the bargains the once were but still sell for lest that an AR16 semi-auto clone.

Mike,

Don't get one of the Romanian WASR's that Century sold. Its a POS. There are some manufactures that sell AKs with a milled receiver as opposed to a stamped receiver. They cost more, but are better made with a noticeable improvement in accuracy. A good compromise is a stamped receiver made from thicker gauge metal like a Valmet or similar, although the Valmets I've seen were in .223 rather than 7.62 x 39.

Gotta ask, is this your solution to taking too many quail with a single shot? Seems a bit overkill.

I paid $100 brand new for mine (the SKS) back on the latter part of the 90's.

Was taking delivery on the SKS and was picking up my rather unusual Colt Ar-15 variant ( chambered for a 7.62X39 round) literally as Clinton was signing his gun ban.

Got my Mini-14 right around that time too.

Yep...my bad...I knew that but why did I have that other thought stuck in my mind...

Mine wasn't too bad....the laminated stock was rather crappy...the metal parts were a lot better.

Was drooling for a Russian made Sniper Dragonuv at the time but just didn't have the cash for one then....

No I didn't. Thanks.

Thanks for all the replies.

Just realized the Yugo SKS ad said "stripper clips" instead of "clips".

Are the Russian and Yugoslav SKSs generally good quality? I don't really care about the removeable clips. Or am I asking the equivalent of "How much is a used double?"

Thanks again for all the help.

Here is a guy who teaches how to build your own;

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/...o-build-ak-47s/

If you like 'quality' and American Made vs. the crude made banana wood AK's:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=401509996

AmarilloMike,
Do you mean "stripper clips" instead of detachable magazines?

Over time the words "clip" and "magazine" have been conflated and are often used interchangeably. A clip is a device to load a magazine. It lacks both a follower and spring. In the world of cars it's comparable to tire and wheel - close but not the same.

have to like the :

NOT FOR SALE IN KOMRADE CUOMO'S MARXIST STATE OF NEW YORK OR WHERE PROHIBITED BY LAW in that listing !

I went with a RRA for my AR-better trigger.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=405141364

Here's my favorite AK. It was built from an AMD65 kit which is a short barrel tankers model. Since the barrel in only 11 inches long it's registered as an SBR. With a folding stock and short barrel it makes for a nice compact package.
Jim

I'm planning to wait until we elect a gun friendly government before I buy one of these. I figure the prices will plummet!...Geo

Doug thanks for the lead. Right now I still have my heart set on an AK.

George I laughed out loud. We may not live long enough though. I own a small business that is incorporated. I kept thinking I would use the corporation to buy a machine gun so I wouldn't have to go through the Class III licensing gauntlet. Waited too long and PA24's president slammed the door on me with an executive order.

I have decided it is the AK47 that I want, not the SKS.

Jim I think what I want is a cold war manufactured AK47 that has been converted to semi-auto. Is that what you have there? And then converted to a tanker's model?

Steve I did think that "clip" and "magazine" meant the same thing. Thank you for setting that straight for me. But I meant stripper clip in that post that I wrote "stripper clip." I didn't realize that "clip" and "stripper clip" meant the same thing.

Thanks again everybody,

Mike

Mike:
It would be illegal to "convert" a full auto AK, using the original receiver, to a semi-auto no matter how you did it. The BATF's position is "once a machinegun always a machine gun". My AK started it's new life as a parts kit that was at that time all complete except for the receiver.
A new semi-auto receiver was purchased and enough new American made parts were used to qualify as a legal and register-able as semi-auto.
I took this one step further and registered it with the BATF as a Short Barrel Rifle(SBR) before it was converted. The envelope you see in the case contains a copy of the paperwork which must be with this gun at all times. This also means it stayed in the gunsmiths' possession until the paperwork was approved.
AK kits are drying up and nearly impossible to obtain today with an original barrel since the BATF arbitrarily decided that original barrels could no longer be imported a few years ago.
IMO: Everyone should have one of these or an AR15 readily available as insurance.

As an aside: When the NFA Act was passed in 1934 the Federal Government realized even then that they couldn't outlaw this type of firearm due to the 2nd Amendment.
So what they did was require a $200 Treasury tax stamp when these were initially registered and every time they were transferred. $200 was a LOT of money in 1934 and the intent was to make it too expensive for ordinary citizens to own one. This stamp to this day is still the most expensive one in use in the United States.
Jim

Type 56 with under-folding spike bayonet and receiver full of rivets. With one of those in your hands you would be like "Mullah Habib Abdullah". If buying new I would probably pick Arsenal with side-folding stock.

The quality of the Arsenal builds is generally considered to be excellent.
Jim

Jim and Jaeger - thank you.

This ad has "Arsenal" in it - "These rifles are brand new & come with 16 inch chrome lined barrels , side mount rail for mounting optics, 1 ten round mag & all new construction in the famous Russian IZHMASH Arsenal.They do not use standard AK mags but will work with the Sure fire 30 round hi cap magazines" http://www.gunsinternational.com/Saiga-AK-47-Sporter-Style-Rifle-7-62X39mm.cfm?gun_id=100425504

Is that gun made by the Arsenal manufacturer you are talking about?

If you wanted one for hunting Mike that's probably a decent way to go. The ones I own were purposefully assembled as defensive weapons should the need ever arise.
I personally wouldn't want an example that didn't take standard AK magazines. This could be a BIG drawback under some circumstances.
Jim

OR this one:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/960310405/Arsenal_SAM_7R_762X39_1399_00.htm

Mike: IMO that's on the pricy side. Shop around for a bit and do some comparisons. However; I guess the days of the $400 AK built from a kit are now gone!
Jim

Thank you Jim. But is the last one by the Arsenal manufacturer you and Jaeger recommended?

Will shop around.

Sorry to be so tiresome!

Best,

Mike

AmarilloMike,
Regarding "clips" - there are two basic designs. The stripper clip, or "charger" as known by the Brits, is designed to load the magazine and then be discarded. It doesn't enter the magazine. The en bloc clip used in the M1 Garand is retained in the magazine until the last round is fired and then it is ejected. In Mannlicher rifles the clip is retained until the last round is chambered when it falls out through the bottom of the magazine.

Mike:
I haven't been in the AK market for quite some time but I do remember Arsenal having other models.
It's still possible to find a kit on Gunbroker, usually with a newly made domestic barrel, and have it built yourself.
This of course will give you more latitude on configuration and options.
Despite whats been insinuated by others I've never run across a poor example military surplus kit.** I don't really find much difference in them although there has always been a preference for the Russian kits when they were available.
Jim

**The Romanian ones were claimed to be inferior when they were 1st imported but I didn't find this to be the case nor did multiple builders I know find this to be the case. At around $100 per kit including the barrel they were a real bargain in retrospect and I wish I'd put some of these kits away.

The design is so simple and forgiving a design that even the WASR does what it was designed to do--go "pop" when the trigger is pulled with another round chambered after extraction and ejection.
There was a reported incident (according to Col. David Hackworth) where an AK-47 was recovered from a bulldozed site in VN during a fire base construction. It was found buried alongside a VC corpse. "One story, plucked by Kahaner from the Vietnam memoir of Colonel David Hackworth, illustrates the issues. Hackworth came across an accidentally exposed Viet Cong gravesite, yanked out a mud-caked AK, pulled back the bolt, and fired off thirty rounds as if the gun had just been cleaned. "This was the kind of weapon our solders needed and deserved, not the M-16 that had to be hospital cleaned or it would jam," wrote Hackworth."

The Gun, by CJ Chivers, is a good read about the history of the AK-47. If I recall correctly, he writes that it is even made in street bazaars by gunsmiths in Pakistan. Yes, the milled receivers are nice to have if and when you can find one, but they are no more reliable than one punched or stamped out of steel. Imprecise and loose tolerances of parts and design are what contribute to its reliability and not machined, milled or hand-fitted parts. The AK-47 is the Remington 870 pump of military long guns.

Thank you Steve.

Thank you again Jim.

Mike, the SKS's are also pretty stout guns. I have two Russian SKS's and an Albanian, and all are accurate and totally trouble free. The Albanians are the lowest in SKS production numbers, and they apparently took much more time in fit, finish, and polishing. Fun to shoot too, but not as much fun as when you could get a thousand rounds delivered to your door for around $60.00. The guns were also a whole lot cheaper before the Golfer-in-Chief anti-gun anti-christ Obama came on the scene.

On a side note, if you lived in New York state or Connecticut instead of Texas, you might be trying to dispose of an SKS or AK-47 instead of buying one. That's why I thought Brian's thread deserved to be exactly where it was instead of here in Misfires or neatly tucked away in the Second Amendment thread. Unfortunately, guns and politics will be intimatly intertwined for the rest of our lives. When we forget that, we will soon lose it all.

King Brown was the one who predictably took Brian's thread way off course and into the realm of dictators, and trying to tell us that the only way Republicans can ever win again is to become exactly like Democrats. It's strange that he wants to meddle so much in our Second Amendment affairs when he does nothing of the sort in his own country.

Thanks Keith. I particularly like the Russian SKS at Simpson's that I linked to as it was made in 1954 in the heart of the Evil Empire.

I agreeably disagree. I believe it will be one constant pissfight in the main section if we have political threads in the main forum. I don't see how anyone can discuss the Second Amendment without discussing Republicans and Democrats and politics.

I wish King would follow the rules and keep his political posts down here. But I wish lots of people would do lots of things, probably many of which are none of my business.

I had trouble keeping opinions out of the 2nd Amendment thread that Dave put up in the main section. On occasion I've had to ask Dave to remove irrelevant posts from that thread to keep it newsworthy, informational and factual.
As far as I'm concerned if you're not a solid 100% 2nd Amendment supporter you don't belong on this forum period. Owning and using firearms without being 100% behind the Constitutional right to do so is hypocritical and I would expel those who don't totally support this right.
This to me is in the same category as permitting a Holocaust non believer to post on a Jewish Religious forum.
Jim

Mike I'm not totally familiar with the AK but I am familiar with the SKS......I own two. If you buy the SKS take my advice and get a shop manual or something that will show you how to do a complete field strip. Strip it and make sure you have the gas piston and tube completely degreased. They are one tough little gun.

It was pretty obvious King was trying to the thread moved,he tried obamacare,then when we didn't "take the bait" he went with the 2012 election loss.


I have a SKS as well,bought it when I worked for a large gun importer back in the late 80's.I think it was $250 then.
They came in crates and had so much cosmoline on them we had to have two people to do the booking in,one to handle the bound book the other with gloves on to pull them out of the crate and clean off the serial number.

Jerb if I buy an SKS I will figure out how to strip it down and clean it and pay attention especially those two items. I like everything about the SKS except that the fact that a citizen is in possession of it won't outrage the likes of Feinstein, Boxer, and Bloomberg since the magazine is not removable like those on an AK or AR. I like everything else about them and they are less expensive.

Mike, IIRC there are a couple variations that take detatchable magazines. I didn't believe it until I examined one. The thing used a standard AK mag. A good place to check out AK's and SKS, is http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php

They can be modified to take a detachable magazine (at least I understand they can)....I haven't done it nor can I explain it.

I've heard its less reliable with them however.

before you make up your mind and shell out the $$$$ look at the Ruger mini-14 in .223 .223 ammo is getting available again and mini-14's with 20 & 30 round magazines are all over gunbroker.
Several law enforcement people I know prefer the Ruger. Aftermarket accessories for the Ruger are numerous.

I had several of these including ones which took detachable mags. I never converted one myself but my understanding is it's relatively easy.
And yes converted they take standard AK mags.
Jim

I own and have built a number of Kalashnikovs.

The best AK-47 quality I have personally seen are the Polish AK-47s, followed closely by the Russians, Yugos and Bulgarians. The Chinese are varying in quality but very good and sometimes great. In AKMs again I would rate them Polish first and Russian second.

If I were closer to Amarillo I would assist and supervise you building one for yourself from a kit. I have the tools and such.

If I were purchasing one a new today, I would buy a Yugo PAP M92 as a pistol, and submit a Form 1 to the BATFE, and upon approval Install a Butt Stock and have a good example of a "Krinkov" style Kalashnikov will all Zastava Parts !


Here is a Polish AKMs Unfolder I assembled a year or so ago.



If you really want to be effective out to 500 yards go with a AK-74 in 5.45x39, at 500 a 7.62x39 is running out of steam.


The weak points on any AK are the US 922r compliance parts.

The following is my opinion. Based on my 27 years of using the AR platform in the form of the M16A1, M16A2 , M4, AR 15 and limited use of the AK47. I have been a certified instructor of the M4/AR series for more than 15 years. I have carried the AR platform on numerous deployments including 4 years worth of tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. I am a gun guy and have always looked, listened and learned during these tours, asking users, operators and shooters about their weapons performance and gear.

The short answer is that its not so much the weapons system but the training you have or get and the proper maintenance of the weapon and magazines. That being said, I am not a fan of the AK. Its okay, I just like the AR platform better. I know that the tactical gun cognoscenti regale the reading public with tales of the rusty old AK that keeps on ticking. Hell, the joke goes that when the inventor of the AK 47, Mikhail Kalashnikov died, he was buried and a week later he was dug up and put back to work designing guns. Get it? I guess you had to be there.


Anyway, the AK was designed for production in factories that made farm implements and designed to be used by soldiers with 3rd grade educations. While some of the American made Ak’s are fairly accurate, they don’t compare to an AR platform.
The caliber controversy will always be with us. The 7.62x39 has a nominal 123 gr bullet and is a 30 cal (.310) bigger hole means more leaking. Or use the 5.56 and choose a quality round designed for self-defense. The Hornandy TAP or Black Hills MK262 77 gr or similar rounds are good.

But the basic rifle platform is the question. Ergonomically, there is nothing out there that comes close to the AR platform. The controls are intuitive and easy to reach and manipulate. The AR system allows for much easier, faster and more positive magazine changes than the AK. Now granted, training is the key but in and out is easier than hook and pull back. You also use the firing hand to release the magazine when using the AR instead of having to use the weak hand that has the spare mag to dump the empty mag out of an AK while manipulating the other mag at the same time.

Safety manipulation is much easier with the AR. Sights are better on the AR. Weight goes to the AR (provided that you don’t hang a ton of useless crap on the rails) The trigger is better on the AR, accuracy is btter with the AR.
Reliability is considered the one thing that separates the AK form the AR. In the world that all of you live in, you are not going to be conducting mounted and dismounted patrols in dust storms, rain storms, snow storms, etc. You will not be getting into protracted fire fights. You are going to want a weapon that allows you to engage multiple targets with multiple shots to stop a threat. You need to be able to have a couple of extra magazines and be able to hit with some certainty.
Try both of them. Stay away from the under folder AK’s. They look cool but that stock sucks. It’s the worst of all of the folding AK stocks. Not rigid at all.

My recommended set up would be an AR 15 SBR with 10.5” barrel, a good suppressor by Gemtech or AAC, or of similar quality, MagPul MOE buttstock, Aimpoint T1 in a Larue mount and a good set up back up iron sights (BUIS) and half a dozen MAG PUL magazines and some other magazines (all numbered) for training. If I lived where terrain is more open and shots may present themselves over 100 yards, I would put a Trijicon ACOG TA31 on it. (I can use the T1 for up to about 75 yards and then I want an ACOG. My eyes aren’t what they used to be and I get a comet tail on the unmagnified dot which makes precision hard. A good 2 point sling from Vickers Blue Force and a battle belt with mag pouches, dump pouch, a couple of CAT tourniquets and a blow out kit with basic first aid gear. A good folding knife and find a good place to train and get some training. And then get some more training. And then at least a yearly refresher; from a reputable trainer.

Bottom line: training is more important than the platform you choose. As long as it is reliable, either will do.

Just my 2 cents in an abbreviated response. It gets way deeper than this but I am trying to keep this brief.

Excellent information from both postoak and Brian. I have no real disagreement with either of your opinions.
I maintained both AKs and M16s in a tough environment in that these were rental guns receiving far more use that anything you'd ever expect from a service rifle.
I don't remember the round count on any of these but as I stated earlier one of the 28 Thompson rentals had over a million rounds through it.
We get bus loads of tourists in and sometimes these rentals would have to run through a couple of thousand rounds without even a cursory cleaning. This was particularly true on weekends when the gunsmithing area wasn't staffed.
The bottom line was the AKs were simpler and quicker to maintain then the M16s. The platform tradeoffs in accuracy, ease of use etc. have been well covered by the two gentlemen in the previous posts.
I personally would not feel undergunned with either of these weapons in a situation where I had to be able to defend myself and my family.
Jim

I have Kalashnikovs and Armalites - when it absolutely must go bang I will go with a Kalashnikov or maybe a FAL.

I have a question that someone like Brian could maybe shed a little light on. Why didn't the military ever develop a rifle specific to close quarters combat? I, a never having served civilian, suspect a short, large handgun caliber rifle would have been supremely useful in an urban setting-think something along the lines of the Ruger .44 magnum carbine, not a true military rifle as such, but, the closest example of what I am trying to illustrate. I would think a rifle similar to those dimensions, and using .44 magnum or perhaps .45 ammunition would take the fight out of a close quarters situation fairly rapidly and perhaps with more authority than either .22 or .30 caliber weapons. Perhaps one or two guys in a squad using the short, big caliber rifle, would be efficient.
Anyone?

Best,
Ted

One possibility, ammo. From manufacturing, same case head size as the 9mm, cross compatibility, weight the foot soldier has to carry. I'd worry about being the one fellow with the odd sized round when supplies are running low.

A definitive stopper is likely preferable in many situations. My understanding was the .22 cal is more likely to strain troop support and morale of the enemy rather than just kill efficiently. Only two cents here.

Ted:
Both the Thompson SMG and the M1 Carbine were developed as short range defensive weapons for close quarters combat.
IMO: To this day: If you have a bunch of low lifes to deal with within 100 yards a Thompsom SMG would be hard to beat.
Jim

The Thompson makes sense, but, I don't believe it has been in theater for many years.

I have a friend who's youngest son was actually on the ground in Bagdad, about a week and a half before we saw G.H.W. Bush light the sky up on the evening news. His story is not a good one, but, I digress. His issue weapon for initial building clearing was a military shotgun. His opinion was that it was a little bit too effective, and lead to loss of life that was unwarranted in the beginning, and that firing a shotgun indoors brings on a whole host of problems specific to that weapon, particularly at night. I'm not positive the results would be much different with the Thompson, at least on the full auto setting.

There, but for the grace of God....


Best,
Ted

Given the recent price drops of ARs, Why would you want an AK? True, its very robust, I used one during my OPFOR days out at the NTC, but the AR is clearly a higher quality weapon. They're only $630 now at my local Wal-Mart...

Thank you all for taking the trouble to answer my questions.

I have about decided on this one:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/917776385/AK4..._New_in_box.htm

A good choice Mike:
That ought to give you years of trouble free use.
Jim

The Thomson is a very heavy weapon; 10.8 lbs unloaded. the simpler M1A was slightly lighter at 10.6 lbs. vs the M4 at 6.36 lbs .
the trajectory of the 45 ACP is very poor and doesn't allow for engagement of targets with any precision past 100M. The M4/5.56 combo allows precision engagements well past 400 M with an ACOG.
It is easier to use the m4 for CQC than it is to try and use the Thompson for extended ranges.
Terminal ballistics are way different for both. the 45 has o ability to penetrate even level 3 body armor whereas the 556 in the M855 Ball has superior penetration.
The Thompson fires from an open bolt, has poor ergonomics and magazines that are a pain in the a$$ to load.
no real ability to mount any kind of optics or sot sight either.

the weight is brutal on the Thompson. the M4 is usually augmented with a dot sight and a light. even if that brings it up a pound and a half, add that to the Thompson and what do you have???
If I am humping anything other than a SAW (M249) or a 240 Bravo, Ill take the M4.
there have been developments in cartridges to do what you talk about. the 458 SOCOM and the 460 Bushmaster are two. but you trade magazine capacity and weight.

Brian:
My reference was to the 30cal M1 Carbine which weighs in at a little over 5lbs not the shortened M1 Garand which is much heavier.
The question asked above was related to close quarters combat and IMO that's where a sub machine or a compact carbine like the M1 really shines. Keep in mind that the Thompson was originally developed as a "trench Broom" ala WWI for clearing out trenches at very close range.
Assault rifles are a compromise between sub machine guns and full size battle rifles like the M1 or G43. The are NOT better choices than either in the role for which the original two were developed.
Intermediate and long range accuracy are not an issue at under 100 yards when your defending yourself against what I have to assume would be multiple charging attackers. In this day and age if caught in this type of situation I'd personally opt for a H&K MP5 or one of the other newer and more compact choices available.

I was going to leave the P90 out of this discussion because I suspect most of the members here are not familiar with it. However it in IMO state-of-the-art for a close combat scenario and apparently several other organizations including our own Secret Service agree. I have had some experience with these at my club and the amount of accurate and rapid gunfire they can lay down is truly impressive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90

N.B: I just realized I left this information out. There is a civilian semi-automatic version of this weapon called the PS90.

I would like to have an H&K MP7 for such scenarios. very nice and for under 200M its the $hit!

I concur on it being an excellent choice, a top tier piece. It is also very easy to convert to a pistol grip version with basic tools and inexpensive parts. Act fast as the importation of Russian Firearms may end soon due to the Russian aggression in the Ukraine.

With quality ammo and a Optical Sight you should be able to hang with a run of the mill AR15 to 250 yards for all practical purposes; 2 MOA should be possible.

I own a Saiga in 308 that I converted into a RPK clone I have been extremely happy with it. It will hang with my Garand with a Red Dot mounted on it. The two biggest detriments to accuracy in a Kalashnikov are the sights and crappy ammo.

Think of a Kalashnikov as a Garand with the Op Rod moved on top of the barrel, a magazine, and a safety lever from a Remington Model 8.

No tiny rings, springs, detents, or direct impingement gas "eating soup out of the toilet bowl" problems.

The M3 Submachine gun (.45ACP) had a curved barrel available to enable it to shoot around corners. This was intended for MOUT use. Since urban ops are avoided as much as possible, (see "Stalingrad" for the best example of why NOT to get involved in city fighting for political, rather than operational reasons) its hard to justify the cost of a weapon whose use is so specialized. The M3 was also issued to tank crews, and even my battalion (Bradley/Mechanized) still had a few during the First Gulf War. During a MOUT operation, explosives are of equal importance as a rifle, so just having a weapon you can spray a room with after chucking in the grenade is important. Since grenade/ammo consumption is high, weight is important, which illustrates the 5.56mm superiority over the .45ACP. You also have to still have medium range capability as well, so, another advantage of the AR series becomes apparent, especially in the shorter M4 configuration.

I'll reiterate a point I made earlier, that the quality of design of an AR far exceeds that of an AK, and if the prices were similar, (which they are) why would anyone consider an AK?

If anyone here collects M1 carbines, there's a Rockola on consignment at Simpson's LTD priced at less than a Grand..

Why ?

An Ak is simple, robust, and accurate enough for what it is made for.

Armalites are more accurate, more ergonomic, and easier to mount an Optic on.

I don't have the experience or knowledge to make that statement but it accurately describes my perception of the AK and explains what I find attractive about it.

Thanks again for all the information, advice, and comments. I did buy that gun I last linked to.

Would this ammo be suitable for the gun?

http://www.ammoman.com/762x39-wolf-performance-123-grain-fmj

I want the ammo that is most likely to be jam free. I am not particularly interested in accuracy - just a plinking gun. I will not use it for hunting.

Best,

Mike

Wolf Ammo is fine. don't let the gun show commandos tell you about the "horrors" of steel case ammo. Wolf Steel case is polymer coated and works great in everything I have shot it in. I shot more than 20,000 rounds of it in 9mm, 556, 7.62x39 and 45 ACP. no issues.
The urban legends of steel case ammo doing damage are bogus.
I was told by an internationally known "tactical weapons training Expert" that if I shot steel cased ammo in an AR or M4 the extractor would break in "less than 80 rounds". 10,000 rounds plus later, no such problems.

Prior to 9-11 if you shoed up at a tactical training course with steel ammo you got laughed at. and told your weapon would fail, jm etc. this was partially true due to the lacquer coated Russian ammo coming in. it would gum chambers up. you still see lacquer coated once in a while so just don't buy it.
A lot of the Chinese 7.62 is copper washed steel cases. no issues there.
for a long time after the start of the war on terror, you couldn't get 556. when I attended training schools on my own dime, I had to provide my own. I started using Wold Polymer coated 556. In semi and 3 rd burst it ran fine. I even did my own experiment to test the allegations of the horrors of steel cased. I did an M4 Instructor Course; 5 days, approx. 3000 rounds. I decided that I would not clean my M4 for the entire class and see how long it took to fail/stop/jam. Each day I put a little CLP in the bolt carrier group and that was it. I ran it all the way till Thursday afternoon and finally had a failure to extract. the fired case was stuck I the chamber. I transitioned to my M9, finished the drill. I left the line and rod'd my weapon and knocked the stuck case out. the rim was ripped off of it. no damage to the extractor. I took a chamber brush and scrubbed the chamber, lubed it and finished the day. I shot the rest of the day and Friday without cleaning. no other issues. we finished shooting at 12x12 steel at 200-300 meters. I was using an ACOG and would ring them every time. and all of this in an 11.5" barreled Carbine.
so, buy Wolf and don't look back.

Brian thank you for taking the time to help me. I really do appreciate it. I could have posted my question on one of the black gun BBSs but I wouldn't have been able to tell who knows what they are talking about. I have seen your posts and I think you and my shooting student Joe Wood have had a few conversations.

I don't exactly understand your signature but I hope you are home for good now.

I went ahead and bought the Wolf ammo.

Thanks again to Jim, Doug, Postoak, Doc, Jerb, keith, Gil, Steve, Jaeger, NCAA, Will, and Flychamps for taking the time to share their experience, advice, and opinions. I can't imagine what I would have wound up with if I had been relying on the advice of near-anonymous blackgun dealers and living-in-mom's-basement black-ops ninjas.

Jim's endorsement of the linked-to gun I was considering was very valuable to me in making my decision.



Best,

Mike

Mike
I am re-deploying, actually now in the Warrior Transition Unit waiting to get some medical needs taken care of. so, still not off of active duty but getting closer.

Good luck. Thank you for your service. Please keep in touch here.

I always feel like a slacker when I compare myself to you and people like you. I will keep you in my prayers.

God Bless!

Good luck to you as well Brian. I think we'll all be pleased when you notify us you're home for good.
Jim

I would be quite happy with an MP-40 and a half dozen magazines.