doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Francotte Question

When considering the value of an early 1900's sideplated 16ga with 2 5/8" marked chambers and Siemans Martin Steel (fluid) barrels in truley excellent condition and all correctly marked Francotte Choke Bore; does the fact that they are both provisionally and definitivley marked Black Powder Proof warrant a significant decrease in values suggested by BlueBook? I assume that this gun could be used, with due respect to age & proofing, like any other gun of same era using lighter 2 1/2 loads designed for such vintage guns, but I am wondering if BP proofing is a big deduct in value? Thanks in advance.

If the quality is there I don't think it would matter if it was pattern welded tubes and black powder but I'd like to see a pic of the marks as post 1893 pretty much most of the examples were Nitro proofed due to the fact that they may have been imported into a country with proof laws. Also with Siemens-Martin steel tubes, right off I can't remember seeing a set with black powder proof only. If it is true, pressure is the key to use and Kent/Gamebore, Polwad and RST have cartridges as well as will oblige you with their data.

Kind Regards,


Raimey
rse

Erik,

I would agree with Raimey and add this. As early as 1896, Von Lengerke & Detmold were advertising that both the Pigeon weight and the Featherweight Francottes "although doing good work with black powders, are bored and intended for Schultz and E.C. powders specially". Schultz and E.C. were early Nitro powders. Now of course Justus Von Lengerke had interests in several smokeless powder companies and apparently spent considerable time and effort promoting its use on the live pigeon circuit, but not without justification. The marketing hype of a long-gone retailer does NOT offer a justification for shooting a 100 year old firearm with modern ammunition but it does suggest that the Francottes were not black powder proofed only.

As concerns the Blue Book, the Francotte section is worse than useless. There are no descriptions of any of the models of Francotte shotguns made before 1910 and that were sold by VL&D and VL&A, probably including yours. And the descriptions of the models made after 1910 are incomplete and inaccurate. Even the Francottes offered for sale by dealers today are frequently wrong as to the model, and prices can be all over the place.

If you will post the serial number of your Francotte I'll see if it might be in the VL&D or VL&A records and, if so, I'll tell you the model. If the number pre-dates 1901 (when our VL&D records begin), we may be able to identify the model from photos and a description of the features of the gun. Knowing the model won't make it any more shootable but at least you will know the relative value when it was made.

The gun is #62992 which I date using internet references as being made in 1906 +/-. Proofs begining at top near hook are AD with * above; EL in overlapping script; 16 over G witin a diamond; E over LG over a * within egg shaped oval topped by crown; finally AF (separated by tree?) topped by crown within oval. The words Francotte Chokebore run lengthwise along flats. I'll try to take a picture or two, but that is always a struggle for me. Thanks for help. This is a gun I have a chance to buy and would love to hunt. It looks to be a very well built gun.

My 1899 12ga Francotte with 26-inch barrels, VLD agent, serial number 33762, Siemens Martin steel, is marked similarly and I use it 2 3/4 low-pressure all the time.

Bob, if you can add any information to the above I would appreciate it. It's my best quality gun and I know little about it. It fits, and I shoot it well above my skill!

The crowned "ELG" in an oval would denote re-enforced proof or a similar pressure to that of the Germans(without having to be re-proofed)after 1893, and I think it was an option prior. Email me the pics and I'll post them for you.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Erik,

Francotte #62992 was received at VL&D in 1906. The shotgun was a special order and the grade is indicated as 'Eagle'. The Eagle grade, later designated the Grade No. 45, first appeared in the VL&D catalog about 1903. It is a side-plated boxlock and should have all the bells & whistles of the "Quintuple Wedge" locking system, including Purdey double underbite, doll's-head rib extension, covered or hidden Greener cross-bolt, and Purdey side-clips. It should also have intercepting sears as indicated by small screws on each side of the receiver between the center of the rear of each ball and the rear verticle edge of the receiver. It was sent to another retailer for disposition. The designation of grade '45' came into use in 1910 and was an indication of the retail price which was $450 - quite a sum in 1910.

King,

Francotte 33762 would likely have been sold about 1900 or 1901 because serial numbers very close to that are all in the 1901 records but not yours. It was probably sold just before the records that we have were begun. If you can show a photo of the receiver and indicate which of the features in the above description are on your gun, we may be able to determine the model. Also, the better of the VL&D Francottes were in one of two categories - Pigeon Guns and Featherweights. Obviously, weight and barrel length were determining factors but there were other differences as well. The pigeon grades were models X, A, B, and C. The Featherweights were models AA, BB, CC, and DD. The grades are listed in order of their quality and price.

Compliments of Griffin & Howe, Inc.

Bob - Thank you & Griffen & Howe. That information verifies what I have thought the gun to be. Again, however, I ask the question of how BP only proofs affect value of gun? With peoples inclination to use vintage guns on SC's, etc my better judgement suggests a deduction in value. Further, were I ever to sell gun, I would feel compelled to disclose the BP proofing. On the other hand it is a nice old gun I'd really like to own & hunt. I just don't want to invest a significant sum in something I have heard might warrant a 50% discount.

If it has a "Crown" over "ELG" in an oval the longarm experienced a re-enforced or special proof test with an acceptable pressure acknowledged by the German proofhouses beginning July 11th, 1893 for tubes to be imported into German and after October 18th, 1898 all tubes for breechloaders were subject to the rule. True the driving force was black powder but seeing it was to be an import for V,L&D into the U.S. of A. it may just have been a matter of simple economics just like many of the Sauers imported by S,D & G, V,L & D which didn't experience the voluntary nitro proof due to the extra expense.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

You can view Belgian proof marks here:
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

There is so much more to the nitro proof issue, see mark #19. There was another mark indicating a 4th proof, see #15. Also, if the barrel weight was stamped on the barrels it had passed nitro proof, see #16.

Raimey is correct about the Germans forcing the proof pressures higher.

In 1912 the Brussels Convention set a minimum proof of 12,000 psi for Nitro proof. Only T Powder could reliably meet this standard. The proof and service loads did not change in France until 1928. In France, in 1901 ordinary proof was rated at 14,200 ps, double proof at 20,500 psi and triple proof at 27,000 psi. These are not service loads! Later, 1928, the proof loads were actually decreased in pressure.

Passing nitro proof in 1906 does NOT mean the gun can handle modern smokeless loads. We are talking about a 100 year gun. The gun should be examined by a gunsmith who is familiar with old sxs. The barrels need to be measured at several points for wall thickness. Finally, it is best to be mindful of recoil and use appropriate loads.

Honestly, people have been very helpful with very little information. Pictures are really needed.

Pete

Erik, It strikes me the answer to your question about values is quite easy.

If it is only BP proofed and you are concerned about reselling down the road at a discount, aren't you buying now for a discount? Thus the relationship between your "buy now" price and your "selling down the road" price the same.

Or is the asking price for the gun now set as though it was nitro proofed?