doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Winchester Model 21 Salesman's Cutaway

This "Winchester 21"? is purportedly a salesman's cutaway that came from a disbursed Winchester collection. The action is unmarked in any way. It's mis-categorized on Ebay and the Gun Gestapo" hasn't found it so if anyone here has any interest have at it.
Jim
http://cgi.ebay.com/Winchester-Model-21-...=item3a5d351516

Is that a 'cutaway' or just a 21 sans the butt-stock and barrels???...Geo

What's become of all the Model 21 enthusiasts here?
Jim

Hello Geo.,

It does have a hole on the side.

JC

I assume that if one bids on it and the gestapo removes it, then is the deal null and void between buyer and seller??

H&H

Uhhhh, you're right! No wonder I wind up with so many surprizes when I buy a gun from a picture...Geo

I would say start a dialog with the seller now so you have his email in case it gets pulled.

I emailed the seller with a couple of questions and never got a response back. JW

The information in my original post came in an emial from the ebay seller. I don't know why he's not responding now but I've heard that the ebay gestapo scum will sometimes probe on a questionable piece before reporting it. He may be leery at this time.
Jim

According to Schwing, the model 21 Salesman Demonstration Sample has a short butt stock and barrels to the end of the fore arm. The right barrel is cut out to enable the viewer to look into the chamber and see the breech. The eBay item is missing quite a bit, if, it was once a salesman demo sample.
jeff

I assume the M21 guys have been quietly bidding on item & and at low price thus far will wait & see what they get ... part it out & make a $ or 2 if it is not correct.

That makes sense to me. Also note that there's no latching mechanism with the included forearm to allow it's attachment to the barrels.
Update: Someone has bought it for $510 so there was certainly no last minute bidders frenzy.
Jim

It will not be parted out. The new owner will give a shooting report as soon as the gun is stocked and barrelled. He would be interested in buying a cut off set of Model 21 barrels.

Jeff, could we have a page number reference on the features you describe from Schwing? I reread Schwing last night and see nothing but full stocked and barrelled cutaways. I would like to see his description of the short guns and maybe a reference to pictures, which I know I have seen in the past but don't remember where. Thanks.

I looked a the Schwing book, too, and did not see anything about short barrel, short stock cutaways. Need a little more proof.

OK. I found a colored picture of a Model 21 cutaway with 12" barrels and a short stock. The serial # is W21X. It is on page 238 of R.L. Wilson's book, WINCHESTER AN AMERICAN LEGEND.

Thanks, Don. I found it. Another one in "Winchester Repeating Arms Company" by Houze, page 216. That picture shows wood cutout but an unmolested receiver, at least on the photographed side. Serial number 45.

Yeah, but that's the same one pictured on page 217 & 218 of Schwings book. It has long barrels and regular length stock.

#40 was sold not long ago. One of my shooting buddies owns #39 which is a common 30" mod and full non ejector, double trigger, 12 gauge. Those two would make an interesting consecutive numbered pair.

Sorry for the misleading information regarding the shortened version Saleman's Demo Sample being shown in Schwind. I was perhaps thinking of this one, sold at a Rock Island Auction Company auction in May. Serial #40. Hope the hyperlink works.

Rare Winchester Model 21 Salesman Demonstration Sample

Regards, Jeff

Perhaps it just I that is confused which is not unusual. The link above is to a non-firing salesmans sample but I get the impression from eightbore that the one just sold on ebay will be finished into a working gun. What's the deal here?
Jim

The pictures of the gun recently sold do not tell much in the way of details. Some cutaways can be shot, some can't. Many of the Cody cutaways are way too cut up to shoot. The Rock Island gun does not have enough wood purchase to shoot, but could probably be shot with a new stock and new barrels. That should only cost about three grand. I will know more in a week or two.

Thanks for the explanation eightbore. This sounds like an interesting project.
Jim

A friend has a Fox cutaway that is fully functional and could be shot with a set of barrels and a new stock.

The Model 21 collector market must have hit rock bottom. That #40 sold for $3162.50 buyer's premium included. By the way, I examined the ebay gun today. It is serial number 150, marked only on the forend wood. The gun apparently displays the experimental (I assume) snap off forend. I put a set of non ejector barrels on the cutaway and the snap off forend works great. I guess it was a proposed cost saving measure that Olin did not approve for his new gun. I guess he thought it would be too much like a Trojan or a Sterlingworth. The receiver is cut away on both sides, all parts are operational, it fires, cocks, and extracts. It may have had a straight grip stock on it at one time because the pistol grip trigger guard has been straightened.

I was mistaken about the trigger guard being straightened. The trigger guard on the early "canoe paddle" stocks were straight, unlike later pistol grips trigger guards. This particular gun does not seem to have ever had barrels or stock installed because there is absolutely no wear marking on any part of the bearing surfaces and no sign that the floorplate screw was ever touched. The gun has a small, almost invisible, milling error in the water table that would have made this receiver eligible for use as a cutaway. It would not have made the final inspection with this little defect. It is my understanding that Winchester made the 21 for a short time before introducing the single trigger option. At serial #150, this cutaway could have been made to study the new trigger as well as the unique snap off forend.

OK, thanks to Stan's instructions, I was able to access this old thread discussing the Model 21 cutaway I purchased in July of 2010. It is now cased and has a wonderful mint early buttstock thanks to poster Lenard Lemke. I still haven't found a set of non ejector barrels.

Pictures please!-Dick