doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com French Shotgun, any info?

I posted this over at the firingline.com, but was curious if anyone here had any further information:

My grandfather gave me, through my dad, an old French side by side, 12 gauge shotgun he had gotten from his neighbor. This neighbor was an elderly Polish gentleman who escaped Poland with this shotgun ahead of the advancing Germans in WWII. I didn't talk to the original owner of the gun, so I don't have any information other than it is of French manufacture. Unfortunately, both this gentleman and my grandfather have passed away. I have had the shotgun for 21 years, and it has been sitting in my closet in a case. I occasionally take it out and clean, lube and oil it. It is in very good condition.

It has on the opening lever:
Helice Elite BTE SCDG
Marque Deposee

On the underside of the receiver, it has:
Hot & Prunier Valenciennes

Where the barrel assembly rests on the receiver:
A crown over the letters PT
the numbers 52 30485

On the undersides of the barrel assembly where it meet the receiver it has:
The proof mark for St. Etienne 1897 double proof finished and joined barrels
Canons Gallia
A rearing lion in front of:
Marque Deposee
Crochets Encastres

A crown over the letters PT
18.4
65
Reforage Longitudinal Cylindro

Canon Surete'
B.A.
Double (with another word I cannot make out)

A diamond shaped mark with the letter BF inside

the numbers 52 30485

The stock has an offset for a right handed shooter.

Who is the manufacturer? Does anyone have any information about this gun? What it's value might be?

http://s156.photobucket.com/albums/t31/bldmaghead/Album%202/

WTF! I clicked on the attached link and my virus alert went crazy! Not a good way to make friends here bldmaghead.

Ok, let me look at that link. Believe you me, not something I was trying to do in any way shape or form. It is supposed to link to the pics on my photobucket account.

I tried the link on another computer, it works fine. Not certain why it gives the virus alert.

I just tried the link and use Norton anti-virus. No problem. Can't add much else to the discussion at the moment.

There is nothing wrong with this link. The only thing that will happens is it takes you to photobucket. And you can see the pics of the gun.

Here are some of the pictures

I see both our shotguns have 65mm chambers.

My Helice shotgun is like this

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/archives/Proofmarks.pdf

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?8612-French-Firearms-Information

Also, check out this info
Marcel Philippon started producing in 1933 and his son also called Marcel took over until he died in 1964, beeing only 50 y.o.
Quite good traditionnal guns from St Etienne: hammerless, Purdey type... and one called 'H�lice tribloc'

Nice looking gun skeettx.

Looking at my gun, who would you say is the manufacturer?
Would it be Hot & Prunier Valenciennes as is what is engraved in the bottom of the receiver in front of the trigger guard? (I will take and post a close up of that later today).

The Helice patent had been around for a while.





Brevete was a shortened patent application process the French used for a time.

Crochets Encastres means the hook is braised to the action.

It would really help if the pictures of the barrel markings were in focus.

Pete

The bad news is you haven't hit the jackpot on value on your old gun. The good news is it is likely a pretty good old shooter.
It is a generic French boxlock, built post 1900, as it was proofed with smokeless powder T, that came into use at that time. The chambers are about 2 1/2, they can be safely lengthened, usually, or you can just use short ammunition. Since these guns tend to be light, light loads help reduce the pounding on old wood, and your shoulder. I'll bet it's choked tight (most French doubles are) but, that can be changed also.
These seem to run $250-$600 or so, just good solid old guns for upland use. If it fits you, keep it, and go hunting. If it doesn't fit you, you can have the stock bent or extended/shortened, depending on your needs, and still go hunting.
I don't know who built it, and if it was mine, I might not care. I haven't seen a French double that hasn't been up to snuff yet, if it was used as intended, typically light upland use with more walking, then shooting, on the docket.
Do enjoy it. I know I would.


Best,
Ted

Hello bldmaghead
Come to Amarillo, bring the gun and we will shoot yours and mine side by side (pun) and have a great time. I will provide the special ammo if you have none.
Mike

I have a similar gun, in 16 gauge, and concur wholeheartedly with what Ted said upthread. These French guns carry well all day and shoot well. The price/value will depend most on the condition of the bores. For some reason, a lot of these guns have pitted bores - probably b/c of being made in the days of corrosive primers and being used in the relatively damp climate of France.

The names engraved on the bottom ahead of the trigger guard are usually the name and town in France of a sporting goods/gun retailer. The retailer would contact the manufacturer (directly or through intermediaries) and order a certain number of guns done to a certain level of finish. They could come with the retailer's name on it. It would be like a shotgun engraved "Skeettx Hardware Amarillo" or "Cabela's Scarborough, Maine" or something like that. The possibilities in that regard are close to endless.

Properly cared for, the gun will outlive you and the rest of us.

Very good info given above. "Helice" was patented by Verney-Carron, a French gunmaker that's very much still in business. Refers to the bolting system, as explained by Pete's diagrams above.

Highly unlikely that the name on the bottom of the gun was the maker, but rather the retailer as Dave points out. What you have is what's often referred to as a "guild" gun, made by outworkers in the trade in St. Etienne. Same system existed in Liege, Belgium; Suhl, Germany; and Birmingham, England--although the Brits usually put a "maker's" name on the gun, even if all the "maker" really did was finish it, or maybe just sell it.

Ted's probably a little low on price, although French guns are still a bargain. And the "Helice" system guns are solid as rocks.

Ted's not off on price one little bit:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/BELGIUM-FELAG-ARMS-16GA-BOXLOCK-DOUBLE.cfm?gun_id=100244242


Larry is living in the past, common problem for the elderly.
Best,
Ted

Don't be put off by the Frenchies. They are light weight for gauge, handle nicely and shoot where you look. And the French invented the break action shotgun among other things. Sometimes it seems they've been standing around for a couple of centuries waiting for someone else (the Brits) to eat their lunch; perhaps a genius for design doesn't always accompany a genius for international marketing which pushes the myth of ultimate quality attached to a few maker names. So it's not a "value added" collector shotgun, Who cares! Don't pass up a Charlin if you find a solid one. Or the wonderful "Ideal" from Manufrance "Bike & Gun". Good luck with your find and notice that you've been told to put it back in service rather than sending it to Merry Oulde Angleland to be reproofed.

jack

The Bruchets laughed at me when I suggested re-proof for my R10 that had seen a massive backbore at some point prior to my ownership. I was in town to have it restocked, do some club shooting, look at French girls and drink like fish with Herv� and Richard Levi, of G. Grangers. I ate some cheese, too.
There is a low spot that has about .060 wall thickness, but, most of the barrels were hanging around .090. "Shoot little shells in it, if it makes you feel better", they cackled.
I impressed hell out of them when I drank beer with dinner, instead of Coke, and the native Irish girl at the bar took an interest in me. Helped that my Mom's name was Eileen...
Sorry to pick on an old man, Larry, but, the guns that sell, as opposed to being listed for decades on end, go for right around that. Spanish boxlocks, too.

Best,
Ted

Pick all you want, Ted--but we'll agree to disagree on this one. First of all, since when did Belgium and France become the same country? Without knowing a lot more about that Belgie you linked . . . well, to start with, it ain't a Helice gun. And I agree that Spanish boxlocks do sell for $450. And many of them that sell for that price go back to the days when they had problems with soft parts. Newer Uggie boxlocks will sell for more than that, as will AyA 4's. But I definitely don't put Helice guns in the same category as the old soft part Spaniards. Neither should anyone who knows very much about European doubles. You can pay that for a Pride of Spain if you wish, Ted. I'll save my money and snap up any decent Helice I can find for $450. And if I don't decide to keep it, I'll sell it and make a few $.

Now if you'd looked under French doubles on GI, Ted . . . darn (or maybe in your case, Darne), but those of us with more experience sometimes have to help the youngsters stay on top of things, like the fact that the Belgians aren't French even though they do speak the language. Anyhow, you would have found a couple Robusts: 12ga, $775; 16, $1200; and a Breuil 16 for $1250. All boxlock extractor guns, like the Helice. (I'll readily admit those prices are on the high side, except maybe the Robust 12.) There are a couple listed in the $500 or under range, but they appear far more used in the photos than does the poster's Helice gun.

Well, actually there are 3 official languages in Belgium: Dutch, French & German, with English close to an unofficial 4th. As to the same French in Belgium and France, the Parisians would not agree, sorry to say. The Walloon "accent" is very strong in Liege. Brussels is a different story.

Pete

Well Pete, there's a good bit more difference between spoken Flemish and standard Dutch than there is between French spoken in France vs Belgian. Difference enough that, on TV programs using informal speech, they subtitle the Flemish into Dutch if it's broadcast in the Netherlands, and vice versa (Dutch into Flemish) for broadcast into Belgium. That does not happen with French. And the Parisians get picky about lots of stuff, but we're talking mainly accent rather than a very different vocabulary--sort of like NY City to Texas. The French spoken in Quebec, especially away from Montreal-Quebec City . . . then you get some more significant differences. But Cajun French is even worse.

I served with a Military Intelligence officer who was Dutch. He took the Army language tests in Flemish and Afrikaans as well.

About 20 years ago I sat on the porch of a building on the banks of the big swamp near Lafeayette Louisanna (forget how to spell the swamp name) chating with retired Cajun propietor awaiting a swamp tour done by his son. Within a period of about 10-15 minutes 4 couples arrives, all appearing to be in their 20's. In each case the lady of the pair said Bon-Jour & nothing else. The old Cajun identified each one as being from Paris; France but not Paris (Lyon as I recall; Belgium & finally French Canadian. All from the way they said Bon-Jour.

Miller, In English, I can pick up the difference between someone from the East Coast, Ontario, Ontario (Ottawa Valley), Manitoba and farther west. And that's just in Canada. Add the US and the UK and Ireland and we have a lot of different accents and a few dialects.

I don't even speak French but I can hear the difference between a French speaker and a Quebecois.

A few years back--in Medora, ND of all places--I met a young lady working in a motel who was bilingual. One parent French, the other American. Lived in France until she was a teenager, at which time her father's job took them to Quebec. She told me that it took her some time to catch much of what her schoolmates said, when they were speaking at a normal speed.

I took high school French students to Quebec on a couple of occasions, spent about a week there. The disturbing thing to me was that when I came home, I'd hear a bit of the Quebecois accent in my own French.

Yes, I can pick up a lot of different "lingos" from across the US also. However for such precise location it usually takes me a bit more than just Good Day.

Miller, accept my apology. It was late last night and I had had a long day and it wasn't until after I hit the post button that I realized your point was based on the brief two words uttered by the old gentleman.

I was born in Wisconsin, as a young boy I lived in south Florida, then moved to and lived all over the Chicago area. After high school I spent 6 years going to school in Southern Illinois. By the time I was out in the working world my speach was such a mixture of different regional accents that people always had a difficult time picking out where I grew up.
Steve

Hell I am still working on English.

My North Texas accent is heavy influenced by my Dad who was from West Tennessee, especially in word choice.

canvasback;
No apoplogy necessary. It did just amaze me though how quickly this older gentleman was able to correctly state where all 4 of those couples were from by just those two words.
My wife came from Southern Illinois so I'm usually pretty good at picking up when someone is from there. Other places not as quick. I suppose though this gentleman had met a lot of folks & had practised some previously, particularly for those speaking French.

I once knew a guy who had an Austin accent atop his childhood Chicaaaaago. Oy. Almost as scary as one of my platoon sergeants, who spoke German with a Puerto Rican accent. Germans would hear him talk and shake their heads like they were full of bees.

The layered accents can be really strange. I just listened to an Asian woman speaking English with a very "posh" English accent. I hate to say it but it was hilarious.

Larry,
My last Uggie boxlock was a Falcon 12, with a hidden third fastener, in probably 95% condition-and it was a whopping $375 on gunbroker. The biggest problem with that gun was the white line pad that was installed. You can do it, that is, buy very decent boxlocks for under the $600 mark, if you look and are patient. By the way, the bits for Spanish guns all come from the same steel cooperative, and the "soft" parts are not limited to POS guns. The skill set of the employees of any given Spanish gunmaking concern is more relevant than the name on the gun.
The mindset that you have displayed that ALL Belgian guns are knock-off cheapies is flat out wrong, Larry. The gun pictured by me is a good quality A & D boxlock, equal to most A & D boxlocks coming out of France. Further, no gun shot longer, or, better, simply because it is Helice locked. The Verney Carron patent would have you believe otherwise, but, it didn't change our destiny or even change the fact that a well made boxlock from anywhere across the pond would last several lifetimes of hard use.
There is a Charlin listed on gunbroker right now that is at $480, but, sliding breech pricing is all over the map, and not really indicative of pricing on boxlocks, helice guns, or, otherwise.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=284769470

If a guy waited until this auction ended and offered up $600 for this gun, I'll bet he'd get it. Helice gun, too.

Keep an eye on your meds, Larry.

Best,
Ted

Ted, it sold for that because it was marked Falcon, and you had to know what you were looking at (which most buyers--especially of cheapies--don't) to know that it was an Uggie. If it were a more modern Uggie and not marked only with some importer's name, it would have cost more.

Given the fact that I've owned a bunch of Belgian guns--maybe even more than you--I'm well aware that they're not all knock-off cheapies. However, I thought maybe you'd been into the sauce more than a little when we started out talking about French guns, and you posted one from Belgium as an example. And it may well be a "good quality A&D", but there's simply too little information in that particular ad to judge much of anything. You didn't skip over the much higher priced French boxlocks to which I referred, did you? Off the same website . . . right there, under "French shotguns" . . . which is a darned good place to start, when you want to compare prices of French guns.

As for the comments about Helice, I spoke with JJ down at Champlin when I was doing an article on French guns, several years back. He had very good things to say about the Helice lockup--which, of course, is also evidenced by the fact that, after the V-C patent expired, there were plenty of St. Etienne guns made using the Helice system.

Stay off the sauce, Ted. And if you want to have an intelligent discussion on the pricing of FRENCH shotguns, then you might start out by posting FRENCH boxlock (non-sliding breech) examples rather than going next door to Belgium. Especially when French examples are readily available, on the very website you used.

Education these days, I guess, just ain't what it used to be.

On the other hand I went to an importers office on business and there was a tall, thin, fair-haired, blue-eyed guy jabbering away on the phone in Chinese. His speech was so spontaneous and natural if I'd shut my eyes I'd have never known that the fellow speaking was probably British.
Steve

Larry, a model 30 is pretty much a model 30. I see the same guns listed over and over again at higher prices. Mostly, they don't sell. They shouldn't. New model 30s are cheap enough not to screw with someone else's $1300, formerly new gun.
'Nother one, Larry-priced right where I said it should be.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=285013933

The sky is the limit one how much you WANT to spend, but, super French (and, otherwise) boxlocks sell for right in that price range I posted.


YOU can (and, should) spend all you want, but, that doesn't mean the price is right.

No sauce here, Larry. Just reality. And a few decent guns in the safe with slim outlay into them.

You should try it. Reality, I mean.

Best,
Ted

A low price on one gun, Ted--without looking at it in hand--doesn't mean it's "right". Nor does a high price. You can find plenty of both by poking around on the Internet.

Just as you did, I bought a Falcon a couple years back for less than $400; eventually sold it for more than I paid. But that's kinda like finding a Sears Ranger and paying less for it than the same gun marked as a Marlin 90 or a Hunter Fulton: same gun, better price because it didn't say Marlin or Hunter, and a lot of folks don't know it's the same gun. But the market price for a Marlin 90 or a Hunter Fulton is based on guns so marked, not on those wearing other clothing. Find one of the "disguised" ones . . . yes, you can get a bargain, IF you know about the disguise. That's one way in which this BB can be very helpful.

Here is the Charlin, Larry:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=285076369

It's wearing a good disquise-there are some Charlin features, but, it is actually an R Darne patent gun with a removable breech-notice that axle, for the key to rotate around, in the sliding breech. It's not a bad price, but, it really isn't a Charlin. I have heard of, and seen photos of these guns, but, never held one or seen a catalog describing them. I don't consider the R design on a Charlin a deal breaker, but, some might. At $600 as I type, thats a bargain-we'll have to watch to see where it ends up.

I still maintain that the great majority of guns we actually use and hunt with, have taken a pretty big hit in the marketplace since 2006, or so. That hit has been especially hard on double guns from the continent.

Stuff like the Tzar's Parker may be exempted, but, doesn't matter, to most of us, anyway.

Best,
Ted

Didn't even break 1 large, Larry. Like I said, stuff off the continent has taken a big hit.


Best,
Ted

Not to the extent, Ted, that you're going to buy a nice, used Uggie 30 for $400 or so. Unless maybe it says "Dickson Falcon", and you're one of those in the know that it's really an Uggie.