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Forums10
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Joined: May 2009
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Both have same bore dimensions, and I'm not measuring just the choke. The older gun patterns much tighter than the newer one, corresponding to the choke dimensions I listed.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 268
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 268 |
Seems I have heard that in International Trap; when they "went to 7/8 ounce loads;" scores went UP! I don't know if it's because of reduced recoil, or what. Some 20+ years ago, I went from 1 1/8 ounce loads to 1 ounce, and for me, I really couldn't tell any difference.(No, I am NOT a world champion.) My best round at sporting clays has been with 7/8 ounce. Can I tell you why?.......no. But I'll keep shooting them until someone smarter than me tells me why I shouldn't.
Sam Ogle
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,398 Likes: 108
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,398 Likes: 108 |
Both have same bore dimensions, and I'm not measuring just the choke. The older gun patterns much tighter than the newer one, corresponding to the choke dimensions I listed. I'm wondering whether maybe the choke on the newer Browning was opened to something closer to the "standard" mod constriction for a 16ga. O'Connor's "Shotgun Book" (1965) shows Browning's mod constriction at .025--but even that is tight compared to what he lists for Remington and Winchester in the same chart (.017 and .016, respectively). My most recent Sweet 16 is a 1967 gun marked mod; measures .023.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
Mark II, this is a very good question. I don't have an exacting, unrefutible answer, however, I will post some data summations that are very close to what you asked. Anyone remotely interested in patterns must read "Sporting Shotgun Performance" by Dr. Andrew Jones. It is, IMO, the only source of statistically valid pattern data, including my own.
First fact to understand - patterns are all the same except for bloom time/distance. That is to say, a full choke pattern at forty yards will be the same as a cyl pattern at some shorter yardage.
Per Dr. Jones, the difference among pattern diameters of various shot load weights from a 12 bore is basically trivial.
Per Dr. Jones, the difference among pattern diameters of various shot load weights from various bore guns is small and basically trivial.
The book does not present data that directly answers your question, but the statistical validity of the data makes the extension reasonable.
Questions?
DDA
Last edited by Rocketman; 04/03/16 07:18 PM.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,278 Likes: 11
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,278 Likes: 11 |
Neil Winston actually knows what he writes about. And he will answer your Q's if you feel the need to ask - tell him Charlie sent you to learn the truth http://www.claytargettesting.com/index.html#have another day Dr.WtS
Dr.WtS Mysteries of the Cosmos Unlocked available by subscription
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Joined: Mar 2009
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,026 Likes: 51 |
The challenge in judging patterns from the same barrels with different weight loads is that most patterns are measured on boards in two dimension and not the three dimensional cloud they actually are. Authors like Burrard, then Oberfell& Thompson, and Brister to name a few all address shot string. Having read their books and Jones too, I agree that patterns remain similar from the same barrel with different weight loads, and that the shot string is shorter. Perhaps there are less trialing shot and therefore the load either hits solidly or not at all, but there is a point, which is difficult to determine exactly, that reducing shot reduces effectiveness.
The mythic, or mystic belief in the square load is part of this question. Ultimately reducing weight reduces effectiveness. Skeet averages declining with the guage ( load ) size shows this.
Load efficiency in reducing loads is problematic as is increasing load weight with magnum loads is.
Last edited by old colonel; 04/03/16 08:56 PM.
Michael Dittamo Topeka, KS
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Joined: Mar 2009
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,026 Likes: 51 |
Wonko, that is a neat website, thanks for posting it
Michael Dittamo Topeka, KS
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,278 Likes: 11
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,278 Likes: 11 |
I don't buy the 2D/3D pattern thing at all. For the target the time difference between the first pellet and the last pellet is effectively Zero. The whole shot string thing is bogus relative to kill factor. Sure, the shot string out - BFD. Poor target breaks or kills are pointing errors not shot string effect
And many people still shoot 100x100 skeet w/ a .410 so how small a load do you need to kill a target? I've watched people shoot way impressive totals at pigeons in the 28ga race. Too bad the bore wasn't bigger, eh?
have another day Dr. WtS
and Mr. Winston do love him some shotgun myth to shred
Last edited by Wonko the Sane; 04/04/16 12:59 PM.
Dr.WtS Mysteries of the Cosmos Unlocked available by subscription
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Joined: Dec 2011
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Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 909 Likes: 43 |
My original question was if you are shooting a 3/4 oz. load does it really matter what size hole it is coming out of?
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Posts: 1,227
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,227 |
My short answer is "yes," it usually matters.
I suspect, with a correctly designed experiment, it could be shown that it does not matter on paper. That's because in a laboratory setting, such as shooting patterns on paper from a benchrest, it would be possible to eliminate virtually every other variable but bore size. But who would be interested in such data unless it could be related to the field. And that's why I say it "usually matters."
Once you move to any sort of real world scenario, be it the target field or the game field, a plethora of other variables having to do with the shooter and the equipment overwhelm any attempt to isolate the bore size variable. It matters because, typically, no matter how hard competitors try to make it so (and no hunter would want to), a 20ga gun is not the handling equal of 12ga gun.
The clearest opportunity for that would be on a skeet field where a tubed gun would come the closest to using equipment that was identical except for bore size.And since it has been demonstrated countless times that 1/2 ounce is sufficient to break 100x100 skeet targets, how many would have to be shot at with 3/4 ounce before one could believe .630 vs .730 can make a difference? Makes my head hurt to ponder it.
I'm gonna leave now and go separate the fly poop from the black pepper.
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