doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Greener ZSR steel

Hello Folks,
I just received a Greener Empire double rifle dated 1928.



It's hard to see on my poor picture but there is "ZSR" stamped on the tube.
The Graham Greener letter mentions that the rifle was made with "ZSR" steel.
Does anyone has any idea what that is?
I googled a lot but got nothing.

Best regards,
WC-

P.S> Graham thought this gun might be one of a kind, but I know there is at least another one around.

I'm a bit biased to the Austro-Hungarian Empire sources, of course this is post A-H Empire, but a wild off the cuff guess considering the Z being the 1st character & with there being little info, I'd guess Skoda or similar offering under the heading of Zbrojovka or one of the other associated Zs.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Not sure what Slovakia was c. 1920s
�eleznice Slovenskej Republiky

http://www.hungariae.com/Markings.htm
ZSr = Artillerie Zeugsdepot Sarajevo

Drew, I think you to well centred with the above & my hope was Austrian/Ferlach arms authority Jani would chime into the discussion. I still hold w/ Skoda for now.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

A few Zs I have known:

Zbrojovka Praga

Ceskoslovenske Zavody na Vyrobu Zbrani - CSZ

Ceska Zbrojovka - CZ

Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka - ZB

And I'm confident there are more.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Please post photos of action and action face of your Empire double rifle. It is a rare gem. I was not certain that any had ever been made. Is the action the same size and with hinge pin the same size as the Empire shotgun?

Sincerely;
Lowveld

Great cartridge and usually the rifles are under valued on the current market. How about some pictures of the rest of the rifle? I love Greener rifles.

Steve is correct that the .360 no.2 a great cartridge.

Graeme Wright, author of the book "SHOOTING THE BRITISH DOUBLE RIFLE" says: "A very much overlooked cartridge. With the 320 grain bullet it is up there with the .375 Flanged H&H Magnum in effectiveness. It shares the same bullet diameter as the 9.3 so a wide variety of bullets are available." Wright lists a number of loads for the cartridge in his book.

On another note, I have a copy of the UK book: "Rules of Proof 1954" which includes the proof loads that the London and Birmingham proof authorities used then to proof rifles and guns. The .360 No. 2 shows that it was proofed with 64 grains of Cordite with a 320 grain bullet and greased cloth wadding. The length of the cartridge with this proof load was 3.875 inches.

The same "rules of proof 1954" shows the proof load for the .375 H&H Flanged Magnum was 1 grain less of Cordite than the .360 No. 2 with a 300 grain bullet; while the .375 H&H Belted Magnum was proofed with 1 grain more of Cordite than the .360 No. 2 with a 300 grain bullet--both .375 H&H cartridges were 3.700" long.

I do not advocate that you re-proof your rifle, just giving you what I discovered.

From the horse's mouth (e.g. Graham Greener):
"Over the years barrels have been made from various steels and Damascus iron & steel mixtures. ZSR is a specification for the steel used in the manufacture of the barrels of a gun but I do not know the exact constituents. We have used many different types of steel ZSR and ZS2 frequently feature in our records and are probably similar to the EN19 and EN32 we use today. I am sorry I cannot provide more details."

Well this pretty much rules out a vendor name and leaves a custom spec'ed steel.

The gun is "as new" and I am not saying this lightly.

I'll post additional pictures later as I am leaving for a hunt in a few minutes.

Have a great Sunday!
WC-

We backward colonialist would call EN19 4140 Chrome Moly and EN32 a ChromeNickelMoly variant

I say GG is full of horse biscuits & they don't want to fess up that they sourced their steel from the Continent. Yeah, custom steel specifically from Skoda. Have him reveal their bar stock source. Nick off a sample & let's have it centrifuged.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Hi Drew,
I think Graham sees this as just examples and not a real identification.
And it seems to me that EN32 is equivalent to 1016 low carbon steel.

I added another poor picture of the gun.


The gun has a long bar, Baker ejectors and bushed strikers (and of course, Greener bolt and safety) .

I really like the Empire action as it is amazingly simple. Better than any other boxlock system I think. Using the main spring as a pushrod and ejector trip was a brilliant idea.


And by the way I agree, the .360#2 is a great caliber.

Enjoy!
WC-

Thank you for the correction WC.
http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheetText.aspx?bassnum=M1016A
It must be used for the action as it is readily carburized.

Unless it's this stuff
http://toscelikniksic.me/supplier/manufa...d/32CrMo12.html

Honestly Raimey, I don't think Graham gives a hoot about what happened circa 1928. What he knows is what the books say.
It would be interesting to know when such steel stopped being used.
If it's 1939 then you might have a point. But the data is lacking...
I've looked all over for such ZSR, and can't find diddly squat. That would mean that he might be right, it could be a custom spec to a steel maker of some sort. It could have been made by many providers for that matter.
Best regards,
WC-

EN32 seems to be 0.15% C, 0.8% Mn and 0.2% Si.
Specially designed to be case colored. Would be used for actions.
Pretty soft steel untreated ( "acier chocolat" as the Belgians say).
Best regards,
WC-

WC:

You seem to be spot on as the makers/retailers don't care, don't know & don't want to know, i.e., turn a blind eye to history. It is just us Baker's dozen of steel fanatics that are consumed w/ what & why. Just looking @ the acronym, other than country of origin that uses the letter Z in the gun trade, I see little use for commencing w/ a Z unless there was some addition of Zinc; & there could be another element that begins w/ a Z that I omitted. I guess it could contain some unobtainium & they decided to use the last letter of the alphabet?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks again WC, and interesting. Hunter Arms used AISI 1020 for the frames of their "Farm Implement" guns according to an undated but likely post-1913 Materials Specification chart in Plans & Specifications of the L.C. Smith Shotgun by William S. Brophy

Raimey:
Actually Zr (Zirconium) is a known components of many alloys.
It would be a lot better than Zn anyway...
I am not saying that this is proven in any way... or even likely...

If I had access to a chromatograph I would use it, but not on my barrel set!
WC-

another 'Z' - Ironworks

Zeljezara in Macedonian

�elezara in Serbian

�elez�rny in Czech

�elezarna in Slovene

Yup the Belgies sure have a way with words- chocolat- the color of what the Germans (Krupp Works- Essen) csall "Schiese"-- but what is with Dr. Drewbie's "farm implement" guns scenario. Give a shotgun made like a John Deere 620 "two-lunger" and I'll give you a shotgun that will outlive all of us- like a Model 97 Winchester pumpgun..

Drew--Czechoslovakia was one of the pieces of the old Hapsburg Empire that emerged as an independent entity, courtesy of the Treaty of Versailles. So it would have been Czechoslovakia in 1928, which it remained (not counting Hitler's annexing the Sudetenland) until the relatively recent and relatively amicable "divorce" that created the Czech Republic and Slovakia.

Um, Zircon. Now you've piqued my interest, WC. Take one for the team & let's break down that compound. I wonder how many tubes for the era had the addition of that component. Still though, the discovery has German roots for the Persian Gold.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

WC:

So what you are trying to tell us is that Greener dabbled in & peddled Zirconium Steel(ZrSteel-ZrS) tube steel? Please provide the steel source as we(Royal We - a mouse & I) are on pins and needles.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

As I said before, Raimey, I just don't know, GG doesn't know and IMHO you don't know either, so we are all on the same page.
So far all we got are hypotheses...
There is nothing wrong with that...Even though it's not satisfying.
The only thing we know is that what works for "ZSR" should work for "ZS2" as well.
That should keep us busy for a while!
All the best,
WC-