doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Belgian SxS Hammer gun - what do I have?

I picked up this 16 gauge hammer gun today. Straight gripper with 65 cm barrels. Found in an attic and it appears to be unfired but has some pinprick corrosion on the outside of the barrels, bores are perfect. Top rib is marked "Acier Cockerill" which I know mean Cockerill steel. Please see large Eagle with crown on the barrel breeches in the first pic, and glyph that's behind the knuckle in the second one. Can anyone please tell me what I have?

Any other marks, on the flats. etc. ? I don't see any proper Belgian touchmarks.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Maybe some pre-1923 Italian process/processes marks and trademarks?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thank you Raimey, here are additional pics of the barrel flats. Both sides are the same.

I'd guess the cipher or interlaced characters on the water-table & the flats to be BV, which may be modelled after the British? The chamber info is inverted with the C atop the bore unlike the Belgian and Birmingham stamps. The other mark of Crown over FB/B, encircled or not, seems to mimic the Belgian Crown over encircled & spangled ELB. So maybe some mechanic from an Eastern Block country that sourced components from Liege, w/ the NON POUR BALLE stamp? Haven't a clue on the FP?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Anyone else leaning toward Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc.?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thank you again Raimey. The gun cleaned up well this morning. Both bores are excellent, nice and bright. Interesting, both of them mike out at .682" which is of course a little large for 16 bore, chokes are both 3� long and full tapered without a parallel section at the muzzle. Chokes are both .654 = heavy choking at 28 points of constriction. Chambers measure a full 2-3/4�. Standing breeches show no evidence of ever having been fired. Stock has a �widows peak� type steel buttplate and both screws have squiggle engraving and are timed 12-6 o�clock. As previously written I assume the barrels are 65 cm as they measure a little short of 26�. The barrels are heavily swamped and the stock drop is only 2-3/8�.

The large �eagle� on both breeches seems reminiscent of the Polish Falcon but its head is turned opposite. The crown that�s over the eagle carries over to the top lever where it�s filled with gold. Well, at least 66 of these guns were made as evidenced by its serial number.

Any further ideas on what I have would be greatly appreciated. Thank you all.

frank

Hum, square crossbolt & is that top rib extension similar to that of Westley Richards? The crowned Imperial Eagle denotes Cockerill steel type. How many points on the crown on the toplever, 8?

Cheers,


Raimey
rse

Possibly Zastava? They used an Eagle in some instances, similar to the German and Polish ones. The company was set up by German investors, just like FN. After a quick search I've not come up with an example. Anyone have one?

Regards
Ken

9 points on the crowns on the top lever and barrels. That includes both ends. Here's another pic I missed earlier.

Again, hum. Any marks around the forend hanger & what does the end of the tubeset resemble?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Armi Hammergun



"Canne tonde lisce, giustapposte, munite di bindella marcata "F Bonus Liege" e recante mirino, le culatte incise "ACIER COCKERILL" e "POUDRE BLANCHE", ornate a riccioli, cal. 12; batterie e bascula incise a racemi e con fagiani in volo, la parte inferiore marcata "Fratelli Piccoli & Co. Verone, i cani (di cui uno con una mancanza), la leva d'apertura ed il ponticello tutti en suite; calcio ed astina in legno con resti di zigrinatura. Matricola "4942"."

Possibility exits that it just may be an Italian finished w/ components sourced from Liege?

But I'd expect to see marks as seen in the following Italian thread:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=366342&page=all


Italian Bird w/ Acier Cockerill


Minus the Dot over I in Acier & Cockerill


With Dot over in Ac�er Cocker�ll

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

And the Italians did fancy a square crossbolt but I haven't found any similar marks:

Scroll down to Fabrication Liegioise Raick Freres:

https://lucianomastrascusa.wordpress.com/bang/

"Raick Freres, un giustapposto dei primi del novecento, in calibro 12, con rimesse in oro su canne e bindella, completamente originale."

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Gents, I have to leave for a get together. Here are some other pics as requested. Hard to see on the 2nd pic but the tubes do touch, also note the "scallops" on the end of the ribs. Also see the AA stamp on each barrel in 3rd pic. Thank you all again for your research efforts.

frank

A hammergun; therefore, not a safety w/ "Sicura" under it. What about Vincenzo Bernadelli? Need to ferret out Vincenzo Bernadelli's process marks.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Vincenzo Bernadelli hammergun advert lifted from below;

http://www.bernardelli.com/en/storia.html

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Finally located the VB over C surmounted by a crown being a trademark of Vincenzo Bernardelli:

http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/i-have-a-1.....-7954418.html

I'll have to work on extracting the images:



Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Note the VB over G(Vincenzo Bernardelli Gardone??) surmounted by a crown as well as the chamber mark of 12 over C, less a rhombus of course. But for the subject longarm, the bulk of the applied touchmarks must be Vincenzo Bernardelli process/processes marks:


Cipher BV as well as block VB - Vincenzo Bernardillo??

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I have curiosity in that would the block characters FP denote Fumo Polvere, although I realize the arrangement is reverse to proper grammar.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Cross-reference:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=464358#Post464358

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Anyone think it odd that most, if not all, of the Vincenzo Bernardelli hammerguns, & possibly other Italian makers, have the crosspin/screw that holds the locks going from right to left & not left to right? Is this typical of all Italian hammerguns?



Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I am back at home and have reviewed all the posts. Thank you Raimey and Ken61 for participating.

So it appears that I have a Vincenzo Bernardelli 16 bore that was made using components that were sourced from Liege Belgium. Also it seems the components at least, were made prior to 1925 as I understand that the sideways square stamp with C 16 inside, was discontinued after 1924. Does anyone have a different take on this shotgun?

I am intrigued by the full 2-3/4" chambers on a vintage 16 bore, also the short 65 cm barrels with their combo of Full & Full choking. With chokes having 3" of full taper and constrictions of 28 points, the barrels couldn't have been cut. Seems like a short barreled shotgun would have more open choking at least in American usage.

As I�d written earlier this was an attic find and it appears to be unfired. The barrels are tight on the face with full contact, hammers are tight as could be on their spindles and the cocking is positive and triggers are crisp. Everything works as it should. As with all guns like this it sure would be nice to know its story.

Other than "NON POUR BALLE" there aren't any additional Belgian proofs so dating via Belgian proof law changes is @ best inclusive.

I'd email VB & see what they give.



Cheers,

Raimey
rse