doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com whizz bang technology

Plunked down the cash last year for a laser scanner. More ways than one to skin a cat but this thing has big potential. I have an amazing amount of time in this project so far, much of it learning how to use the technology. I expect future projects to go faster. It has a place for sure but not for every project. The last pic shows a plastic model which is a mirror image of the original I used as a model. More pics to follow as the project progresses.

This should be an asset to hammer doubles and other special parts,
Thank you for sharing

Mike

Keep us posted. Looks like the way to make some of the really hard to make bits and pieces for one-off guns Way to go!!!

DDA

Most interesting. So can you obtain a complete modell in one scan or multiple scans? Also, did you print it w/ a 3 D printer?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
a small item can be placed on a turntable that is tied to the scanner and multiple scans can be done in one session creating the complete model. To create a model that is a dumb solid, or not editable, it is a relatively easy task. I had several working surfaces that I wanted to be able to edit and that becomes a substantial amount of computer time. I did not 3d print the part but am considering buying a 3d printer as I think one could be a valuable tool when prototyping.

Steve

That's also similar to a scanner that is now used as a survey tool like say a Faro 3D scanner. So what is the individual file size & how do you stitch the scans together. Do you utilize a program like Pix4D?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Steve, how did you "print" the part?

Justin,
The plastic model was cut on a CNC mill, it was not printed. I do not currently have a 3d printer.
Steve

Good stuff Steve. I've always wondered when some firearm knowledgable machine shop will accept electronic files so that all the gunsmith or hobbyist would need is the scanner to have a part roughed out and dropped in the mail. I'd think someone could easily modify a scan to add back worn or broken surfaces before the new piece is machined. I've also wondered if a 3D printing or plastic model could be invested to make a casting if that was a preferred route. I'd think a program could add predicatble compensation for shrinkage. I'll watch for your updates.

Craig,
Small edits to the scan data are easy to do. It is adding editable features to a CAD program that really takes time. You certainly can scale items up once you have an editable feature in order to compensate for shrinkage if you wanted to make a mold. Options are endless. The trick will be cranking out a usable product at a reasonable price.
Steve

For those young enough to have the time left to get new equipment and learn to use it; you might benefit from a couple you tube machinist that show various projects with casting and making molds; some with traditional pattern making, and some with 3D printed molds. A challenge would be finding metal suitable to cast gun parts from. You might check out MrPete222, Keith Rucker at Vintage Machinery.org, and maybe Sand Rammer would help with mold making. This is not my "thing", but it seems to have some application to the things that interest us.
Mike

I�m pretty sure Steve, that that�s how companies like Renovators Supply duplicate all the old hardware patterns. Hinges, doors sets, what not.

My son-in-law made my daughter�s engagement ring on a 3-D printer that laser fused sintered metal. He said cost was by weight of mat�l used.

Great progress with the scanner and especially with the product output coming off the CNC. Some diehard muzzleloader folks are moving away from castings to CNC products and with a scanner setup like yours some of the fancy relief engraved Jaeger furniture could be made.

Anyway, super job using the equipment.

Nice!

Sounds like the 4-function calculator, circa 1975: already getting use and coming down in price, but not yet commodified. Give it 10 years and this will be everywhere for making custom parts, and the price will have come way down.

I think I may have confused some forum members when I posted pictures of the plastic proto-type. I simply used the plastic to test my tool paths on the mill and get an idea as to how the part would turn out. Since the last post I have added a flood coolant system to my mill greatly improving the machining aspect of things while simultaneously creating huge mess in my shop. Fix one thing create another issue. Seems about right. Anyway, the steel hammer for the left side of the gun has been. I now need to fit it up to the tumbler and test it on the gun.

Pretty neat. So now what is the value added cost of the above hammer?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Smooth going with the fit up. Only curious, if you scan a part, can your program create a mirror image. Say, if one hammer were missing, can it be machined off a scan of the opposite?

That is exactly what was done in this case Craig, I made the left hammer using the right hammer as a pattern. Once I imported my model of the right hammer into Solidworks (CAD program) it was a simple matter to create a mirror image of the model to create the left hammer model.

What scanner?

My Nextengine scanner was bought from another gunmaker who gave me an incredible deal on the machine. Thank you to both the Gentleman who sold me the machine and the forum member who pointed me in his direction.

So what would the cost be to make and fit a left hammer based on using the right hammer as a model? Is this a practical thing or just one of those things which is totally cool but not cost effective?

I have tried waiting for a set of rough cast hammers from the trade in Great Britain. Last pair I inquired about he could not give me any estimate when he would have them. I think he was really thinking which year more than which month. Waited more than a year so far. Now I am on vulture watch looking for old hammers or old side plates with hammers on them. I hate mismatched hammers but understand why you see them so often. Some where in Great Britain there must be a box, bin or drawer full of hundreds of old hammers s stripped off decrepit hamnerguns.

Well I would not build another for the cost I quoted this job at. I do think it could be done more efficiently with a bit of practice. I would think 1200-1500$ for a completed hammer about the price point for making it a profitable job.

SKB,
Going on your price above and taking the exchange rate into consideration, your price equates to roughly �1000 for a hammer ? Maybe I could buy a spare gun with the required hammer for that price?

That too was my question but I guess it wasn't phrased proper. And can you break down the minutes or hours per device as well as man hours? I was curious how it would compare to file stroke hours.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I never claimed to be a cheap date

Seriously though, the overhead is huge for a CNC mill, Software and yearly maintenance, tooling etc. Well north of 40K so far and I am thinking about upgrading to an enclosed mill. The story of a repair costing more than a gun is worth is not unique to this project. Surely you see similar situations regularly in the UK. I currently have over 40 hours in this project, though much of that was learning the new software. I think you could have a workable new hammer in need of fit and finish in about 12 hours with some practice.

Raimey,
with some practice I think about 6 hours of computer time, 4 hours on my mill(could be faster with a bigger machine) and 2-4 hours to fit and finish, IF your first model is correct and does not need revision. The amount of time required to make changes to your model and write new toolpaths etc. would depend upon several factors. I use an integrated CAD/CAM package so much of the toolpaths can be reused from the old model and updated as need be.

Steve

Many thanks & I see. So it is not plug & play by any means nor is the effort measured in minutes but man hours. Is the steel type a factor?



Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
The type of steel is not a large factor in time required for machining. Your feeds and speeds are calculated using software and you can adjust for steel type. Not a lot of difference unless you are cutting something far outside the norm.
Steve

I am sure there is some do and learn as you go to this, with a natural increase in speed as you repeat the process. But each hammer will be unique and require a lot of item specific points to get exactly right. Your price seems about what I figured maybe a little low.

People fail to understand jobs like this are both man time and machine time jobs. The steel cost is trivial. A 40K machine wears out, needs to be paid for and replaced so that must be figured as part of the cost. Is that machine a thousand hour life machine? If so that�s $40/hour break even, no profit margin and no saving for its replacement.

It is interesting but I�ll let you have the fun.

Raimey,
If you have a gun that needs a left hand hammer, email me.
Mike

Your price for a hammer is right in the ballpark, Steve.
I would not make one for any less than $1500 - and you know what the next one I make is going on!

I was mearly pointing out that the cost can be high , and we should consider all options before diving in .

I would think that a customer wanting a one off hammer has already thought through the value of it. I suspect that the machining complexity and time involved in a hammer, might show how to come up with other simpler, but equally unavailable parts. The pricey equipment doesn't have to be in house, but the availability of options that save significant bench time may eventually become the only way to convince a gunsmith to take on some projects.