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I'm curious about this, and would like input from those who have actually done testing to determine the answer, or know of testing that has been done.
There has been put forth the idea that spreader loads are more dangerous to bird dogs, because of the unreliable nature of "flyer shot", those shot that just go, crazily, out of the pattern and could hit a dog. But, at the same time, very open chokes in conjunction with regular loads are championed for use over those very same dogs.
My question is this ...... is there really a higher incident of rogue shot, extreme fliers, when spreaders are used, than when, let's say, promo game loads with soft shot, are used out of a Cyl. barrel? Are factory loaded spreader loads, today, more prone to flyers, and why?
I don't have an agenda here, so please don't assume that. Just looking for a discussion on it.
Thanks, SRH
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I have been doing some patterning with the little X shaped spreader, and didn't notice any wild pellets. In fact, it did nothing for my pattern- same as without. 38 and 40 thou chokes. I can see with the Polywad style, I'll be trying them in the next week or so.
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Stan: I believe that was a theoretical concern with the soft lead cube shot available in the 70s - 80s. Orvis promoted a Woodcock load and the box was marked "Not for covey shooting".
I have not heard the issue mentioned with the various plastic insert spreader loads. My limited experience was with Polywad (disc and post) Spreaders in a tightly choked 16g Smith. The pattern was a bit wider and I don't recall fliers, but they could have been off the 36X36 paper.
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Never could understand why someone would want a spreader load.
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I have been doing some patterning with the little X shaped spreader, and didn't notice any wild pellets. In fact, it did nothing for my pattern- same as without. 38 and 40 thou chokes. I can see with the Polywad style, I'll be trying them in the next week or so. I have been experimenting with RST spreader loads in my 16 gauge. They use the plastic shot cup with the integral "X" molded into the bottom of the cup. I have not found there to be any difference between the percentage of shot within a 30 inch circle at 25 yards between the spreader loads and the standard shot cups fired through my improved cylinder choke. However, the patterns thrown with the standard shot cup wads are noticeably center dense. Where as the spreader loads throw a very uniform pattern across the circle at that distance. For that reason I use the RST spreaders for all my woodcock and partridge hunting, and I have found them to be very effective. Granted this is one load, in one gun, which doesn't mean a whole lot other than it might be worth experimenting with in your gun. I have never seen the phenomenon of these spreader loads wildly throwing flyers out of the pattern, let alone opening the pattern to any significant extent.
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Never could understand why someone would want a spreader load. I believe you.
Life is too short to have a 'hate on' for so many things or people. Isn't it?
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Stan, I did enough work with Guilandi spreader wads to believe they work. However, I don't recall ever shooting a flushing clay over a dog. Ergo, I haven't worked on you question. But I do have a suggested test.
Suppose we fire a level shot from 54" above ground with Bowser at 30 yards and have a choke that delivers a nominal pattern of 30" at 30 yards. Bowser is 18" tall. So, the bottom of the pattern will pass 21" above Bowser. So, if you fired a test pattern at 10 yards you would expect a very high % of the pellets to be within 10" diameter/5" radius. Any individual pellet with a radius of 12" is going to be suspect of being capable of putting the 'ole ouch on Bowser. The 10 yard distance will allow you to capture fliers without going to unreasonably large paper.
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I order Fiocchi Interceptors two flats at the time, and have never seen these flyers on my 4' X 4' pattern plate. Perhaps my plate is too small?
SRH
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Good idea, Don. Only thing that concerns me is that I use a steel plate, not paper. 10 yards is kinda close to be shooting a plate. I've always wondered about ricochets at that close a range. Your thoughts?
SRH
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Stan, I have shot more than a few at Sporting Clays. One target was zipping by at about 10-12 yards away over water. Never saw a stray pellet hit the water at some spot that would suggest a real problem. Perhaps it is an old wives tale and perhaps it is just a dog owner not wanting to take chances. I know more than a few dog owners who will not use them but I do not know if any of them ever had a real problem.
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I've played w/spreader loads on & off for many years, some factory, most fabricated. Near all of them got tested on a grease plate @ 21yds and again at 40 yds. Some closer than that and some farther away. Shotgun patterns 'bloom' or said another way, expand exponentially, looking like the air horns seen on some trucks, from the side. It isn't a linear happening. And they don't all follow the same curve or began to bloom at the same distance, but close up, say within 15 yards, you won't see flyers. Move back to 21 [center of a skeet field] and you won't see them w/new round shot. Use purposely deformed shot or some reclaimed shot & you may begin to see some. Back up to 40 and you see strikes to the extreme edges of the plate [4'x4'], actually two of then side by side, making me conclude that it didn't catch them all, as I could sometimes see strikes on the contiguous plate where they abutted. Just saying.
Go back in time far enough and some boxes of 'skeet loads' had two cartridges that were 'spreaders' intended for use on station 8. I've never had a dog that could jump that high, but some that wanted to;-)
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Good idea, Don. Only thing that concerns me is that I use a steel plate, not paper. 10 yards is kinda close to be shooting a plate. I've always wondered about ricochets at that close a range. Your thoughts?
SRH Stan I'm so glad you finally' got a grease shooting plate. I been shooting one for years. My gun club has 4000 members with that many members you're going to run into more than a few ding dongs...years back I saw a guy walk up to our steel grease plate at 5 or 6 yds maybe closer and empty his .410 pistola loaded with buckshot...I thought boy this guy has a head on his shoulders. Thanks to idiots like him we now have signs clearly marked "no shot bigger than 7.5 lead shot only". Before the signs I patterned my turkey guns on it with lead #4 with nare a mark on the plate. I never shot a #4 shot closer than 25 yds. About a week ago I went down there with a young man to see where his trap gun was shooting. We walked down to roll it out and it looked like .38 craters in the plate...found 3 empty OO buck hulls at 25 yards...so big lead shot will dent a heavy steel plate. At an angle you might get a ricochet...I've shot a greased plate a lot straight on at 14 yds.and never felt anything come back with 7.5 lead shot.
There has been put forth the idea that spreader loads are more dangerous to bird dogs, because of the unreliable nature of "flyer shot", those shot that just go, crazily, out of the pattern and could hit a dog.
SRH
As far as a stray pellet from a shotgun hitting a pointing dog...sounds kinda silly to me. I'll even go so far as to say made up liberal crap. Shooting over pointers for quail I'm usually standing almost over the dog at the shot... I'd say the chance of a pellet hitting the dog is about eQual to hitting yourself in the foot with a pellet. Better chance that new found' grease plate of yours falling off and chopping your foot off while you're rolling it out. I'm curious about this
SRH Stan you hear what happened to the kAt?
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Never could understand why someone would want a spreader load. If one has a SXS that is M/F or F/F and desires to hunt woodcock in leafy or thick woods where the shot opportunity windows are within 20-25 yards and maybe hunt late season dove, spreader loads make the woodcock shots more practical and late season dove hunting with regular ammo without the need for screw-ins. I have some guns with C/F that I use for woodcock. With woodcock, having two open patterns made possible with spreaders in one or more barrels gives a close-in pattern for two shots when the need arises. Spreaders work as intended. For those that handload with the Polywad post, a member of the 16 ga. forum came up with a solution for what he noticed were holes in pattern's center. He loads three fourths of the load under the spreader disk and the balance of the load ahead of the disk with an OSC roll crimped on top of the full load. Gil
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I order Fiocchi Interceptors two flats at the time
SRH GLS I imagine Stan is shooting them at sporting clay rabbits...never saw him mention hunting over pointing dogs. For years I've occasionally shot sporting clays with a guy that used about 3 different loads when he shot on a course...maybe more. He is a really good shot...I personally think he would've shot just as good or better with one shell. There's always the fellow looking for a little edge....trouble is...is the real or imagined gain really worth the added financial or mental cost. Kinda like a TSS shooter wouldn't you agree.
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I think one does better not fretting about what others shoot. If it works for them, why should I complain? As for "cost" there is not one thing practical about what we do with loads or guns we hunt game with. As Chuck H. once said, once we pass the first Kentucky Fried Chicken joint on the way to hunt birds, all practicality flies out the window. Gil
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No fretting from me I assure you....
I'm not looking for a little edge.
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Stan: I believe that was a theoretical concern with the soft lead cube shot available in the 70s - 80s. Orvis promoted a Woodcock load and the box was marked "Not for covey shooting".
I have not heard the issue mentioned with the various plastic insert spreader loads. My limited experience was with Polywad (disc and post) Spreaders in a tightly choked 16g Smith. The pattern was a bit wider and I don't recall fliers, but they could have been off the 36X36 paper.
I never tried the cube shot. Can't remember who it was, but someone promoted flattened "disc" shot. I did pattern some of those. Pattern basically ceased to exist beyond 20 yards. Never used any on either clays or birds. I would not have used them around dogs. I haven't tried all the spreaders out there. But I have observed that the Polywads--either factory or reloads using their inserts--spread much wider than the RST's. Enough wider that they might be a danger to a dog? All depends on how far away the dog is and how low you're shooting. The guns I shoot now at grouse, woodcock, and quail--often requiring close shots where you want a lot of spread--are open enough (cylinder or just a few thou constriction) that I don't use spreaders any more.
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One of the first things I did after putting up my plate a few years go was to test some spreaders ............... like tw, some were reloads and some were factory. I go through about two flats of the Fiocchis every six months, or so. I still pattern them in different guns from time to time, and have never seen any of those random fliers, way out of the pattern. But, I've never shot them at distance long enough to cause the fringe of the pattern to reach the plate edge. My spreaders are used at 20 yards or less. Further than that I have minimal confidence in their density, but they would probably be effective further. They buy me a little confidence on rabbit targets, or incoming birds at very close range, out of my M and M choked P gun.
The only time I ever used them at any distance, to speak of, was at the Fall Southern Classic, at Georgetown, one year. I was trying to qualify for the L C Smith team, using my 32" barreled 16 ga. LCS, choked .025" and .026". I bought a flat of Polywad SpredRs from Rick and used them on every target, close and far. I qualified with them, and shot in the LCS/Parker event, using them. I recall being impressed at how hard they broke some of the longish stuff.
SRH
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All interesting comments, and thanks. But, what I'm trying to figure is ......... is there any reason for a factory spreader load, with new round shot, to have more random fliers than a regular factory load being shot out of a gun that would have, say, a CYL barrel, or SK? I think not, but am curious enough to listen to any ideas.
The most misshapen shot that leave the barrel, from either type shell, will be those in the bottom of the payload, due to setback. The amount of "damage" to them would be a function of powder burn rate, hardness of shot, shot cup type (or lack of one) and velocity. So, it's really impossible to compare apples to apples with any degree of confidence.
As I said earlier, I have no agenda here. I'm just an inquisitive type.
SRH
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I recall Roger Barlow doing an article on the cube & disc shot some years back, I think was in an old Gun digest. I have never shot either of these myself.
Spreaders are most often considered impracticable beyond around 25 yds. I tried to never shoot real close to any dog on a hunt even without spreaders. It would take an extremely variant pellet to hit a dog if you are using good shooting practice in my opinion.
I "Almost" shot a good beagle once on a rabbit hunt, but that's not really connected to this thread. Just a case of a dog being where I didn't know she was & as I pulled down on the rabbit she suddenly sprang out of some cover right in front of it. The rabbit was running toward me just outside the cover & I had already sent the impulse to pull the trigger. I wasn't able to stop my pull but did manage to rear back & throw the shot high, was shooting a 12 gauge cylinder bore muzzle loader.
Miller/TN
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Miller, I, too, wonder if the stray pellet theory came from someone who shot a low bird too close to a dog and wanted to assign blame somewhere else. Just last month a friend's grandson-in-law's Lab was filled up with #8 bird shot when a customer on the preserve on which he guided shot a low, slow quail, a late flusher, after the lab was sent in to retrieve. The dog survived bowel surgery and x-rays showed over 100 shot in a hind quarter. Gil
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That customer should be banned from that preserve, and be billed for the veterinary services, IMO. People make mistakes, but we should have to pay for them.
SRH
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I have some tight choked doubles that otherwise make good bird guns. I use Polywad spreaders in them over dogs. The question here had come up many years ago and I "patterned" a few shells to see for myself. I used TV boxes for targets.
I found no evidence of extreme flyers. Of course the flyers may have been off the box, I guess. I still use spreaders...Geo
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Thanks, Geo. I think I'm going to shoot the plate with some SpredRs, from my 16 ga. AE, this afternoon if the rain quits, or asap.
SRH
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I use RST spreader loads for almost all of my Mearns quail hunting and have done so for the last 7 or 8 years. All of this hunting has been done with my Pointers.
Most of these birds are shot under 20 yards and using a light spreader load kills effectively and I believe leaves a bird that is still able to be eaten, even when shot with some of my vintage SXS choked pretty tight.
Spreader loads dont throw some crazy uncontrolled load, they simple help to open up the pattern. I know that this is not a scientific test but my experience from using spreaders in the field.
Its my opinion anyone saying their dog was hit with a stray pellet is using that excuse for shooting a dog.
I never approach my dogs with a low gun where I must bring the gun up over them to shoot a rising bird. I never shoot a bird on the ground. If my dog is on point and the birds flush before I am able to get close to my dog, I dont shoot.
Im sure most guys hunting birds with their dogs follow these same rules.
I do know of several cases where accidents happened or carelessness was involved and dogs were hurt as well as some killed.
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I would think that fiber wad shells with no shotcup would actually cause more errant flyers than spreader loads with plastic shotcups just from the shot scrubbing on the barrel walls.
After the first shot the rest are just noise.
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I think that GSL has found 99% of all stray pellet source. Stupid actions by excited people. The number of near disasters Ive seen hunting and boating are are almost all due to deliberate bad decisions. Shoot too low, too near, too late and boating were mostly alcohol related with a few just plain stupid things thrown in. And first thing people do is try to cover up or pretend it was not them.
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I have no experience with spreaders, are they designed to open up a pattern more than a gun with no choke at all?
I.e. will a Cyl. choked gun shoot a more open pattern with spreaders than with a standard load?
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Anyone ever been hit by a stray pellet on the skeet field?
Ricochets happen.
I think that patterning the spreader loads at a steadily increasing set of distances is a great idea.
One of my labs had pellets in her back.
I attributed them to having been somewhere under or at least near enough to a flushing pheasant to have been raked or ricocheted.
So Without exactingly identifying the how, I am sure that shooting over a flushing dog can put pellets in them. I suppose that if a spreader was working as designed, there would be a choke construction or two increase in pattern width at distance, So some net increase in the chance of a nearby dog getting fringed. Or hit by a ricochet.
I dont think that is evidence of a golden bb when it works for you, or of a black pearl when it works against you.
Plenty of things can alter or re direct the trajectory of a deformed pellet, an arrow, or a rocket ship for that matter.
Re-reading Stans question more carefully, I know of no one ever shooting spreaders into a huge cardboard or steel screen for the purpose of looking for extreme flyers.
Last edited by ClapperZapper; 03/01/19 03:08 PM.
Out there doing it best I can.
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I have no experience with spreaders, are they designed to open up a pattern more than a gun with no choke at all?
I.e. will a Cyl. choked gun shoot a more open pattern with spreaders than with a standard load? Yes, Rob. A spreader will enlarge the pattern more, even when shot out of a cylinder barrel. Some believe that the tighter the choke, the more a spreader opens. I.e., whereas a IC choked barrel may shoot a SK pattern with a spreader, a XF choked barrel may open up to a M. I've never seen proof, nor disproof, of that contention. So, I accept it as a possibility until I am shown one way or the other. SRH
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I haven't seen flyers with handloaded bismuth. My Alabama friends who come up for woodcock and grouse said they wouldn't use spreaders for fear of hitting their dogs. My guess is they may have been referring to softer shot of years ago---and were keeping a factoid alive.
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Even if one shot a large surface and if the first shot didn't show flyers, how many more shots would it take to satisfy the issue?
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I tried spreader loads a long time ago, and the only time I would consider using them again would be if I absolutely felt the need to shoot a very tightly choked gun, and didn't wish to alter the original chokes. And I don't like the idea of altering original chokes either. There is a better solution to both problems. It is more fun and more interesting too. Just buy more shotguns. Don't try to turn a duck gun into an upland bird gun, or vice-versa.
I have a choice of several open choked guns for early season grouse, and I have a number of tightly choked guns for turkeys or late season pheasants. And I have guns that are choked in between those extremes. I do not golf. But if I did golf, I don't think I would try some clamp-on accessory that enabled me to use a 9 iron as a putter. And I don't know any golfer that would either.
My only pattern testing of the spreader loads I used was some informal shooting at large sheets of paper or cardboard. I don't recall any wild extreme flyers, but my patterns had some large enough holes to concern me. I also don't even recall what brand I used. I can tell you what I do know... from shooting a very large amount of objects from a slingshot as a kid... from perfectly spherical ball bearings, to fairly round iron ore pellets, to round stones, to misshapen stones... objects that I could actually see in flight. I would be much more concerned that a dog or fellow hunter might get struck by flattened or reclaimed shot than I would by flyers from well outside the pattern of a spreader load. Misshapen projectiles can and do have some very erratic and unpredictable flight paths. These tales of a poor dog getting raked by dozens or up to 100 pellets are either horrible accidents or careless shooting. I would not question the possibility of one or two flattened pellets going well outside the bulk of a pattern.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
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Spreaders loaded with either the BPI 'X' wad or the Polywad inserts work, and work very well. I use both to good effect turning the modified choked left barrels of both 12 and 20 gauge field guns into usable barrels for skeet doubles.
I have not found a reason to employ them in the field, and I likely would refrain.
I'm convinced there is really no safe place in front of the muzzle plane of a shotgun. Pellets can and do fly all over hell.
Even behind one is no guarantee of safety. Pal of mine had to have a pellet dug out of his nose, the result of a bounce off an overhead going away target.
I've never been fond of shooting directly over a dog, I'd not want anyone shooting directly over me...
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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Exactly....I was patterning a turkey gun once with an extremely tight choke. I was shooting large pieces of cardboard at 40 yds. I had a can of black spray paint I was painting an aiming point with between shots I threw the can over to the side about 10 or 15 yards from the target each time. A stray pellet struck the can and let all my paint out.
Myself I wouldn't fire a shot with a person or a dog anywhere in front of the muzzle.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86 |
I bet a big load of those TSS #12 pellets loaded in a spreader would play hell on a rabbit target.
Just saying...
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 976 Likes: 51
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 976 Likes: 51 |
Speaking just from my experience. Spreaders work well in all chokes for up close pointed birds.
My current go to quail gun this year was one of my RBLs 20 gauge with Skeet and skeet chokes. Shooting 2 1/2 Spreaders.
I shoot this combination for one reason, because it works for me.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,198 Likes: 1171
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,198 Likes: 1171 |
Skeet chokes with spreaders is a pretty "open" situation, GR. If I had a gun with SK and SK I wouldn't bother with spreaders. I'd be concerned that if I were faced with a longish shot on a quail I wouldn't have enough choke to take it. I get lots of (second) shots on quail that are in the 25-35 yd. range, and always going away. Personally, I like something like LM for that.
But, if it works for you that's the important thing. We don't all have the same situations.
Thanks for the reply, SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,189 Likes: 18
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,189 Likes: 18 |
Mention of disc shot was made; it was known as plumbago(sp?)and commercially sold & loaded, at one time. The use of that particular name may have been to mean 'flower' or it may have been because the leadwort flowers are generally flat; I never could run the etymology down and even the spelling is open to argument w/marketing hardly being new. Remington's 'Shure Shot' ammo has caused me to misspell 'sure' much of my life. Ha! I've posted on making purposely deformed flat disc shot before, so won't repeat that, but it WILL produce wide & unpredictable patterns that deteriorate rapidly.
On cubed shot; it was the Russians who won the Olympics at International skeet some years back using specific cartridges for each station; before some rule 'refinements' were made. Their station 8 rounds were loaded w/cubed aluminum shot! More pellets within then allowable weight limit + erratic flight for a quick & close bloom. Station 8, being the position half way and in line w/the two houses, so the closest shots taken in a round or 'box' of skeet.
I've witnessed a person being struck by a pellet while shooting skeet. Shooter was on station 4. That's the outer station in the centre of the field, for those unfamiliar with the game. Only plausible explanation is that the pellet did a 180 degree turn running on the inside periphery of the target's bottom just prior to the target coming apart and it came back to hit another person on the squad. Have also been told of a similar instance where one of the shooter's lenses was broken from a pellet coming back and striking it during a registered shoot on the W coast many years ago. Had a friend who was on the squad when it happened. Just saying.
The French at one time used 'Raye' boring in some shotgun bbl.'s, ostensibly to affect an earlier pattern bloom; it was like a paradox, i.e., a bit of rifling toward the muzzle, but smooth bored behind or between the end of the forcing cone forward to where the rifling occurred. I've owned & patterned some French double guns w/that feature as well as trying the assorted 'diffusion' & rifled factory & after market chokes in several semi-auto shotguns. All of it on grease plates and when using modern hard shot w/plastic or card wads found they pretty much all produced IC type patterns! It was an eye opener for me at the time. Others have reported similar findings since.
Bit of a ramble, but its a fun subject, spreaders. And we all know that patterns open more at sea level and in the swamp than they do at higher elevations, right? :-)
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86 |
Mention of disc shot was made; it was known as plumbago(sp?)and commercially sold & loaded, at one time. The use of that particular name may have been to mean 'flower' or it may have been because the leadwort flowers are generally flat; I never could run the etymology down and even the spelling is open to argument w/marketing hardly being new. Remington's 'Shure Shot' ammo has caused me to misspell 'sure' much of my life. Ha! I've posted on making purposely deformed flat disc shot before, so won't repeat that, but it WILL produce wide & unpredictable patterns that deteriorate rapidly.
On cubed shot; it was the Russians who won the Olympics at International skeet some years back using specific cartridges for each station; before some rule 'refinements' were made. Their station 8 rounds were loaded w/cubed aluminum shot! More pellets within then allowable weight limit + erratic flight for a quick & close bloom. Station 8, being the position half way and in line w/the two houses, so the closest shots taken in a round or 'box' of skeet.
I've witnessed a person being struck by a pellet while shooting skeet. Shooter was on station 4. That's the outer station in the centre of the field, for those unfamiliar with the game. Only plausible explanation is that the pellet did a 180 degree turn running on the inside periphery of the target's bottom just prior to the target coming apart and it came back to hit another person on the squad. Have also been told of a similar instance where one of the shooter's lenses was broken from a pellet coming back and striking it during a registered shoot on the W coast many years ago. Had a friend who was on the squad when it happened. Just saying.
The French at one time used 'Raye' boring in some shotgun bbl.'s, ostensibly to affect an earlier pattern bloom; it was like a paradox, i.e., a bit of rifling toward the muzzle, but smooth bored behind or between the end of the forcing cone forward to where the rifling occurred. I've owned & patterned some French double guns w/that feature as well as trying the assorted 'diffusion' & rifled factory & after market chokes in several semi-auto shotguns. All of it on grease plates and when using modern hard shot w/plastic or card wads found they pretty much all produced IC type patterns! It was an eye opener for me at the time. Others have reported similar findings since.
Bit of a ramble, but its a fun subject, spreaders. And we all know that patterns open more at sea level and in the swamp than they do at higher elevations, right? :-) Best ramble of the entire thread.
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