doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Super-X loads, pressures and patterns

Progressive Burning DuPont Improved Military Rifle (I.M.R.) Powders were introduced in 1914. DuPont Oval was developed for the 1922 introduction of Western Cartridge Company�s 12g �Super-X Field� 2 3/4� 1 1/4 oz. 3 3/4 Dram Equiv. shell. The Peters Cartridge Co. �High Velocity�, United States Cartridge Co. �Ajax Heavies Long-Range�, Remington Kleanbore �Nitro Express Extra Long Range� (the boxes were marked �3 3/4 Drs. Equiv.�), and Winchester �Super Speed� (also marked 3 3/4 Dr. Eq.) loads soon followed.
Western�s 3 inch �Record� with 1 3/8 oz. of shot was released in 1923.

Western Cartridge Co. never marked the Super-X �Field� or �Record� boxes with �Dr. Eq.� stating only �Maximum Load�.

In a c. 1927 - 1935 Western Cartridge Co. flyer �Super-X The Long-Range Load�, Capt. Chas. Askins listed the loads, some muzzle velocities (modern 3� velocity would be about 70 fps less), some pressures, with extensive pattern testing.



.410 2 1/2� Super-X 3/8 oz., 1010 fps average velocity

.410 3� Super-X 3/4 oz. at 850 fps average velocity (�the average trap load� � then 1 1/8 oz. at 1200 fps at 3�) with �under 5 tons� psi = 15,680 psi

28g Super-X
2 7/8� case with 3/4 oz. No mention of Dr. Eq., MV, nor pressure

20g Super-X "Record"
1 oz. with measured 29 gr. (2 2/3 Dr. Eq.) DuPont Oval, No. 7 1/2 shot (no MV nor pressure documented)
Cyl. Bore �pump gun� at 25 yards = 94%
Unknown double 1/4 choke at 25 yds. = 94%
3/4 choke at 30 yds. = 98%

16g Super-X
1 1/8 oz. with measured 32 gr. DuPont Oval (2.9 Dr. Eq.), MV 1500 fps ??
(1 oz. 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. DuPont Bulk MV 1450 fps)
�Ithaca Quail Gun�
No. 7 1/2 shot, Modified choke at 25 yds. = 76%
No. 6 Modified choke at 40 yds. 182 pellets = 70%
No. 5 � 152 = 76%
Parker, Modified, No. 5 shot at 40 yds. � 170 = 85%

12g 2 3/4� Super-X �Field�
1 1/4 oz. with measured 38 1/2 gr. DuPont Oval (11 gr. / Dr. Eq), 3 3/4 Tons = 11,480 PSI with MV 1400 fps, No. 4 shot; 165 pellets in 1 1/4 oz.
Full choke. 30� circle pattern. It appears mostly 5 shots taken.
Super Fox �special double gun�
40 yds. = 148 pellets = 90%
55 yds. = 118 pellets = 71%
60 yds. = 97 pellets = 59%
70 yds. = 65 pellets = 40%
G.E. Lewis Magnum at 40 yds. = 138 pellets = 84%
Ithaca at 40 yds. = 127 pellets = 77%
Parker 10g at 40 yds. = 138 pellets = 84%

No. 6 shot (260 pellets in 1 1/4 oz.) at 40 yds.
Super Fox � 244 = 94%
Fox Featherweight � 214 = 82%
Lewis � 216 = 83%
60 yds.
Super Fox � 153 = 59%
Lewis � 160 = 61.5%
Super Fox at 70 yds. � 120 = 48%

No. 2 in Lewis gun
60 yds. � 71 = 65%
70 yds. � 37 = 34%
Super Fox at 75 yds. � 46 = 42%

3� Super-X �Record� with 1 3/8 oz. at MV 1400 fps with 4.25 Tons psi = 13,160 psi
No. 4 � 190 pellets per 1 3/8 oz.
No. 2 � 130 pellets
Smith Long Range
No. 4 at 40 yds � 87%
No. 4 at 60 yds. � 53%
No. 4 at 80 yds. � 26% (one shot)
No. 2 at 40 yds. � 87%
No. 2 at 60 yds. � 53.5%

Pattern testing by David Williamson with .042" choke 32" LRWF at a measured 80 yards using 3� Winchester (plastic) hull with 38.35 grains of Blue Dot, Winchester 209 primer, Winchester AASL wad, and 1 3/8 ounces of #5 nickel plated shot. The average number of pellets was 246 and measured weight 1.353 ounce.
Pattern % in 30" circle: 5.3 = 13 pellets, 8.1 = 20 pellets & 8.5 = 21 pellets.

Super-X 10g 1 5/8 oz �about 4 1/2 Drams� No. 2 shot Full choke 32� barrel, average velocity over 40 yds. 1030 fps; �up to 13,000 psi� by crushers = about 14,500 psi by modern transducers
60 yds. � 88 pellets = 60%
70 yds. � 49 pellets = 33.33%
80 yds. � 33 pellets in 36� circle = 22.5%

Super-X 3 1/2� 10 Gauge Magnum in Ithaca Gun Co. with bore .795� with 2 oz. shot; pressures �about 5 Tons� = 15,680 psi
No. 4 Lubaloy at 60 yds. � 173 pellets = 59%
80 yds. � 101 pellets = 35%
No. 2 at 60 yds. � 112 pellets = 57%
80 yds. � 67 pellets = 34%


Hunter Arms Co. Pressure Curve dated June 10, 1929, from the McCracken Research Library, Buffalo Bill Center of the West (found by Gary Rennles) and used by permission
http://library.centerofthewest.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/WRAC/id/8149/rec/107
1� peak pressures by lead crushers so 10 � 14% higher by transducers
12g 3� �Record� 1 3/8 oz. shot = 13,250 psi
12g 2 3/4� �Field� 1 1/4 oz. shot = 10,750 psi


Feel free to take up the numbers with Capt. Askins
Will Rogers in a New York Times column �Slipping the Lariat Over� in Sept. 30, 1923
�All I know is just what I read in the papers, and that's an alibi for my ignorance.�

I've pattern tested modern Super X 12's against the old "Super Pigeon" formula, which is 3 1/4 DE rather than 3 3/4 and about 100 fps slower. The latter throws better patterns, but the Super-X isn't bad. It clearly outpatterns the very high speed (14-1500 fps) lead loads I've patterned . . . in addition to having milder recoil.

When did we fall into this 1400 FPS insanity? I�ve killed a literal ton of game using an ounce at 1150 FPS. Thousands of Dove, hundred of Quail and more than a thousand Ducks in my youth. Could any of them been more dead if I boosted the velocity 250 FPS, or increased shot by a fraction? A few who got away might have been brought to bag but I bet the temptation to shoot birds further away would in the end cause more crippling.

Now late season ducks and geese, over big water, do take a lot of shot to bring them down. But I did so with 1 3/8 or 1 1/2 ounce at 1150-1200 FPS for years. I see so many �hunters� who blame the arrow not the Indian, themselves, for their misses. Give me a Bismuth load at 1200 FPS in a reasonable shot size and let me limit my shits to those I took in my youth then I have me need for 1400fps.

It is interesting that modern loads are hotter than what many assume, but most were designed after the double gun was in rapid decline. Safe in pump guns and semi automatic guns for sure and many of the later doubles. But dead is dead to me. The extra punishment on my shoulders from recoil does not appeal to me. And as Larry points out often the best pattern is well below maximum velocity. I had the same experience when shooting rifles. Rarely were the best groups produced by the hottest loads.

To be old and wise, you must first be young, and stupid.


Best,
Ted

That Super-X The Long Range Load booklet you picture is much later than 1927. That cover was used from the first one to include the 3 1/2 inch Magnum-10 dated 11-32 on to the last ones in 1935. The earliest Super-X Loads booklet, from 1922, just has the 2 3/4 inch 12- and 20-gauge loads --



The earliest one of the Super-X The Long Range Load booklets I've found is not dated and has a grey cover with red and black ink, then a similar one dated 5-28. They both include 10-, 12- (2 3/4 & 3-inch), 16- and 20-gauges and .410-bore Super-X loads. Then in 1930 to early 1932 there are a number of different cover colors --



4-30 left, 2-32 right. The one dated 2-31, the first to include the 28-gauge Super-X load has a beige cover with blue and black ink.

In the first Western Cartridge Co. catalog to include the Super-X they show the 12-gauge being in the FIELD shell and the 20-gauge in the RECORD shell.



I have three of these catalogs and in two of them the 20-gauge page has penciled in that they are in a FIELD shell.






In the Super-Fox brochures when they discuss the Western Super-X loads talk about DuPont 93 and DuPont Deluxe.

Thanks Dave.

Interesting claim that the 20g load "breech pressure is maintained at a low point" despite "the velocity exceeds that of the present maximum loads..."

The DuPont Ballistic Table published in Parker Brothers' �The Small Bore Shotgun� c. 1920
http://parkerguns.org/pages/PDF%20Documents/Small%20Bore%20Shotgun.pdf
16 gauge
2 3/4 Dr. Eq. 7/8 oz. = 7,035 psi
3 Dr. Eq. 1 oz. = 8,980 psi
20 gauge
2 1/2 Dr. Eq. 7/8 oz. = 12,655 psi
+ 10-14%
DENSE Smokeless Powder pressures would be 1000 - 1,500 psi higher