doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Belgium Guild doubles

I just joined this forum because I am 78 and have been hunting with different doubles for a long time. I am just curious about a gun I saw in a gun store. The tag on it just says Belgium Guild. There was no identification on top of the barrels. I removed the forend and the markings on the bottom of the barrels were:
JJ
799
JF JF
CHOKE 183
The gun is a box-lock 12ga with 27.5" barrels and ejectors. Online, I found a site showing a chart of guild markings but didn't find those above. Other than the top quality guns like Liege or Francotte , an you find information about a gun like this? Thanks in advance and glad to be onboard.
Si

Hello whisperbow
Welcome on your first posting

http://www.littlegun.be/

Enjoy the adventure

https://www.shotguns.se/html/belgium.html

Please take pictures of the marking on the flats of the barrels

Mike

Thanks for the reply Mike. Instead of taking a photo of the barrel flats, I just wrote them down as they were positioned. I looked at the charts you sent but nothing there that relates to these marks:
JJ
799
JF JF
CHOKE 183
Si

first of all there aint no such thing as a guild gun...no name guns are often examples from a batch of guns made up during slow times for labeling later...most common are those of belgian or german origin...

proof marks stamped on barrel flats will tell the tale...if no proof marks, you have a conundrum...could be old check, austrian or ???...

and ejectors indicate a graded gun...any engraving on the frame...

images of barrel flats and frame sides would be interesting. and helpful...

welcome to this fine forum...

I can check the gun again but the only marks were:
JJ
799
JF JF
CHOKE 183
and they were on the bottom of the barrels next to the flats??

Welcome. I grew up on the Missouri side of KC and when I came to my senses moved to Cedar Creek and later Prairie Village Was the gun at the Olathe Gun Shop?

'JJ' could be either Joseph Juleinond or Joseph Joiris; both barrel makers in Nessonvaux and members of Syndicat des Fabricants de Canons de Fusil de la Vesdre.

'JF' is Janssen Fils & Cie; a major maker of tradename guns intended for export ranging in quality from utility to very fine.
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belg...k/a%20janssen%20fils%20et%20cie%20gb.htm

CHOKE indicates a barrel constriction > .008" and 18.3 is the bore in mm = .720" or 12g

The gun was made 1898 - 1910, and may have damascus barrels

Please see
https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/belgian-shotgun-identification-guide.232252/

"no name guns are often examples from a batch of guns made up during slow times for labeling later" is ed's creative fiction.
In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, rifles, and handguns from Liege gunmakers, who made guns as they were ordered, to a price point as specified, and may or may not have marked the guns with the tradename of the hardware store, sporting goods dealer, or distributors/jobbers like H.&D. Folsom.

If you examine the gun again, check if the words on the rib are in English.
There are more marks on the barrel flats and action flats.

Guns without names clearly marked are often incorrectly called Guild guns. They were most often made for "the trade" to be marketed by someone else, sometimes large retail firms and sometimes individual shops. They are sometimes marked by the seller; in which case they may be incorrectly said to have been made by the seller. Other times they were/are sold without being marked; these are the ones incorrectly called Guild guns. Sometimes, even though not clearly marked they may display a logo or some other mark, inside, identifying the actual maker.
Mike

Mike makes a good point. A Janssen Fils & Cie mark inside the back-action lockplate on a tradename gun



Scroll down to the bottom here for some discussion of the guild system, which evolved into trade unions. Even the major makers often sources parts ie locks from home craftsmen
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vgxxWD_hui-i629-T1yxwY559DU-xzFFBDVe9ur3mCo/edit

we are spitting hairs here, as often we do...point is, no name guns were made up in batches to be branded later...

some were branded later...some were not...for a variety of reasons...

it is unusual that the gun in question has ejectors...

it is also unusual that the barrels apparently have no proof marks...

pictures would help...

Imho some fine guild guns out there. BL and Sidelocks.Pipeliner