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Exquisite engraving!! On both guns!!👍

Well, the fraudulent seller just got another NEGATIVE from a guy that paid about $3,500 for a Luger that was faked.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1042425415

But the fraudulent seller is still selling on Gunbroker. Gunbroker has done nothing to stop him.

Looks good Bob

Sweet!

Kudos!

Nice stockwork

Pre-1913 Smiths were listed with some gradation of English Walnut, and French Walnut on higher grades

Made of Wow, Mister Cash. Please drop me your address so I can plan my retirement and dotage around burglarizing you and shooting porcelain penguins with that thing until its wood splits.

To finish this inquiry, these questions were really raised at last September Vintegers' shoot in Pennsylvania when I looked over a John Dickson central-fire dated per his records from 1865. On holding it I immediately said "converted pin-fire" and was met with hostility. The records proved me wrong.

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=635255

Nice gun, AGS.

I have 1901 for the 10 and 12 gauge (non-ejector). The year 1900 ended at 105917 for the 10 and 12 gauge (non-ejector). The serial numbers in 1901 went up to 111681 for that year. So, 1901 is correct.

This carries four boxes of 12 gauge if you want to carry something smaller.

These do have latches to keep them closed. They are just open right now.

These are really popular among clay target shooters. They're made by Shamrock Leather in Minnesota. The bags are just under $300.00. The side pouches are around $50-$60.00 a piece. They hold eight boxes of shells in the main bag. The smaller carrier holds 4 boxes of 12 gauge shells.

Didn't Lefever mostly use English walnut? That's a significant upgrade vs. most American walnut.

I weighed Last Dollar's 28" Lefever 12 and it is right at 7 lbs. I have another one with very, very thick tubes. They slightly overhang the face of the action fences. It's disassembled but, I would guess it is well over 8 lbs. Has anyone else seen this overhang?

I envy how one could order what they wanted back in the day. You can't really configure a custom citori. Well Bob Cash does but his name is Cash.

Dave, new to site, a little something sent via wifes paypal Charci cause I havent a clue where she stashes all my money :-)

ChiefC

Fair enough, but judge a gun fully on its merits.

The later Elsies (especially in the lower grades) were cookie-cutter and mass-produced, as were all the American entry-level guns (especially after 1913 - when import tariffs on cheap foreign guns were dropped). Accordingly, they had issues associated with those early automated processes (one of them clearly being problems with stock-cracking). The very early guns (certainly pre-1900, with the Syracuse and the "transitional" Fulton guns being even more-so) were almost completely hand-made (in an artisanal process much-like what the Brits still use today [when they aren't using CNC machines]). As you would expect, these early guns were much better in every possible aspect (art, materials, fit & finish, & function). The numbers produced were very low (extremely low when compared to post-1913 production) and they are not "commonly" encountered. Until lately, good information about them was limited to basically one book (Brophy's) and a few resident experts (who weren't all that forthcoming with information either). I've been a gun-guy all my life and I knew almost nothing about the earlier guns. If you do happen to encounter one (and it's healthy) they normally command a fairly high price, and for good reason.

Make you a deal. I’ll just be honest. There are guns (and cars, and toasters, and washing machines, etc, etc, etc) that have issues. We will not pretend about them, and if guys are willing to live with and deal with those issues, so be it. You, do you.

But, we don’t pretend anymore. Fair enough?

Best,
Ted

Thanks for looking into this Dave.

I brought it up because it seems to be getting a bit worse over time. It has happened to me on two different P.C.'s and my Android phone, and using different WiFi networks, so didn't appear to be anything on my end. I figured it might be a sign of an incipient hardware failure.

Now Ted...play nice or I might end-up thinking I've been "casting pearls before swine" here.

Yes Ted, the Preacher obviously needs help here.

I have seen a Lefever with a similar stock fracture, and it didn't happen as a result of recoil... any more than this example from the Preacher's vast photo collection happened from recoil. In the case of my Lefever, the cause was careless handling during shipping by Fed Ex. The gun was intact when I bought it, intact when the seller boxed and shipped it, and broken nearly in two when Fed Ex delivered it. The box also showed obvious signs of rough handling.

In the photo above, all it takes is the simple power of observation and reasoning to SEE that the widest part of the split is near the end of the top tang. The split runs along the direction of the grain (which is not optimal in terms of grain layout through the wrist), and the split becomes more narrow as it runs forward, and then appears to terminate somewhere under the lockplate region. I would bet that if we could see this gun with the lock removed, the end of the split would be at least an inch or two from the head of the stock.

If this was caused by recoil, the widest part of this crack or split would be at the origin of the splitting forces, namely the head of the stock. The famous cracks behind the lockplates of L.C. Smith's are largely due to the wedge effect of the rear of the lockplate. The amount of wood removed during inletting, and the fragile nature of the old wood are contributing factors. This wedge effect is also the greatest cause of stock splits behind the top tangs of guns like the Parker and Remington doubles. We don't know precisely what caused this stock split, but if we observe and use reasoning, we SHOULD also be able to see those signs of damage in the checkering on either side of the split. That sort of thing is not seen in recoil induced splitting either.



Short answer Lloyd... Absolutely not!

BTW, you should think about making room for that F Grade if the condition and price are right. It will hold it's value far better than paper dollars, that are being severely devalued by Biden-flation.

Well, yea:




The second gun, with the crack starting behind the lock plate needs to have a good ‘Smith take a look at it and stabilize the crack. Many were the guns that had an issue like this and were just run until they didn’t run anymore.

The other gun needs work. Badly cracked. Wood sometimes just breaks to be mean, it is one of those things, no specific reason, and sometimes there are excellent reasons that wood breaks, like, behind the lock plates of an LC Smith.

Best,
Ted

Steve, I sent you a message about shipping info and you removed yourself from the conversation, what's up?

Both the No. 00 and No. 0 were available with the HOT after introduction 1904-1905

"all original LC Smiths barrels come in a dull brown-blue hue" is incorrect. As David said they were finished in "black & white"



Full size high resolution images are easy to post on the LCSCA site, and there are certainly experts there who could help decide if the gun has been refinished.

I've owned probably 10-12 solid rib Superposeds, both 12 and 20 gauge, and all of them were Grade 1 field guns. They were usually 1 1/2 x 2 1/2 x 14 1/4 to a Browning buttplate, with a few being 2 3/8 at the heel. Maybe one had 2 1/4 d@h. They ranged from early '50's to early '60's production. It's pretty rare to find one from that time period with less drop than I mention.
JR

Thanks again Lloyd, that answers/confirms 1901 as production year and Quality as why Pre-1913 Smiths are sought after a little more.