I have a boxlock double sxs shotgun marked "MARKS" on the left side of the receiver. It's a 16ga., serial number # 178xx. On the water table it say's " PAT'D FEB.7, 1911 with the serial number on the opposite side. It has double triggers and the stock looks very similar to early Lefever Nitro Specials. Buttplate has a dog holding what looks like a pheasant in it's mouth. Barrel is rust blued and receiver and forearm look to have been color cased. There are no markings on top of the barrel. On the under side, of the barrel it has the initials LLH and the serial number. Anyone know what this is?? Thanks for all help!


John

John I have seen the LLH on barrel flats before but cannot remember where. If you can post a photo someone here will recognize it. Jim

The barrels came from Belgium....
Best,
Ted

If the barrels came from Belgium what explains the US patent date?

Belgian barrels, parts and entire guns were sold all over the world. It sounds like your gun was manufactured in Belgium and possibly assembled here. Also, many gun makers in Belgium held American patents, certainly Henri Pieper comes to mind.

LLH is the trade mark of Laurent Lochet-Habran, a Belgian maker.

I have LLH barrels on an original L.C. Smith. Importing and then fitting and finishing English and European barrels was a common American shotgun maker practice.

Does anyone have a listing of American Mfg's that used this type of barrel? Thanks!

I looked in Larry Schuknecht's patent listing book & he doesnt show a Feb 7, 1911 patent pertaining to dbl shotguns. A few have surfaced which he missed but not many. If anyone comes up with a patent # for this gun would be interesting in knowing it.

2-piper. the Feb 7 1911 patent was issued to Geo Lewis and assigned to Hunter Arms...I hadn't given Larry the complete set of patents yet...You can thank Chris Schotz for screwing up that whole deal...ALL the patent research is actually my work and all the biographical work can be almost wholly be attributed to Larry...It's really too bad that everyone that has to pay the price for the Chris Shotz's circumventing of Dave Webers word. Larry and I were doing that project at the specific request of Dan Cote'...we worked for nearly two years before CS put himself in the middle...so now, even Dan doesn't get the completed research project...you can ask Larry if you like...

fishinghole...I hope you still own this shotgun marked "Marks"...

Here's the info on the patent:

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT9...22+1911#PPA8,M1

Ken

I have an Ithaca with those barrels.

fishinghole...again, I hope that you still have that gun...I don't know why Ken didn't come forward sooner with his patent information, perhaps he just google searched the USPTO for Geo Lewis after I revealed his name...I will wait to discuss what "Marks" is indicative of, to see if anyone else will come forward with the information FIRST.... All these LC Smith collectors and yet no one will say...Perhaps no one knows the answer to this question, perhaps the people who do know, wont say, for fear of speaking out of (the imaginary pecking) order. Maybe it's best if I explain via telephone, rather than risk a manure battle for simply trying to explain what it is that you have. You guys know who the all the gale force wind bags are, better than I...why are they so silent about this peice? Has the cat got their tongues?

There are at least 6,000 people who have signed onto this board. Not all follow what is going on here but many, many read much of what is written but they do not post. I have learned a lot by reading posts written by others who are more knowledgeable than I. If you are in a position to educate and help us to further our knowledge it is appreciated. I suggest you should do what it appears you really want to do and share some of your knowledge and let the chips fall where they may.

Does it look anything like this Fulton Gladiator made by Hunter Arms for Sears 1917-1919? Quality pics would help enormously!

builder..please, please try to excuse my tactics, I am trying to make it safe for all those non-posting readers (that you speak of) to in fact contribute ocassionally without being slammed, jammed, or discredited for doing so...several members offered kind words of encouragement at the Syracuse show last weekend,(thank you all) saying things like "you get 'em" and " you don't discover anything in a museum" [quoting myself]...and my favorite "you need a pigeon gun"...only one member played the fence (B)...
This bullitin board system has the potential to be a great clearinghouse for research information, as it is, it's just a chat room disguised as a BBS. Imagine if college students could post serious questions here about Andrew Whitmore or Joseph Tonks, and the question sat unmolested until the right scholar, with perhaps the right information, came along, and a connection was made...LIKE A BULLITIN BOARD IS SUPPOSED TO BE... Nowadays, if a newbie leaves a scholarly post like that, five BBS pigeons will fly over to the posting and poop all over that scholarly question so that no one else will touch it, it's almost acceptable behavior here. The information exchanged here will rarely hold up to reference...this hurts everyone...and it undermines the true potential of the entire bullitin board system. If we could "shoe" these pigeons away, perhaps we could foster a climate where even the timid scholars can begin to participate. More likely, I'm just dreaming of better days where the system is open to all, not just the pigeons. Please advise if you refute these observations. You have been kind to me in advance, if you insist that I do things your way, I will comply

I say let it roll but I insist on nothing since all is voluntary here. Most of us can separate the wheat from the chaff even if we do not respond. I am here to soak up the knowledge and help where I can. I appreciate the knowledge shared here so readily and so kindly to me and others. I have made outstanding friends here also. Many have prayed for me and I likewise. There really are a lot of good people here. Some of them have been the finest I have run into on line or personally. You can see and hear it in their posts.

I will drop this now but encourage you since I see you really want to share and help. Work toward the future, not the past.

RC,

Lighten up, Francis.

Yes, I simply Googled the patent once I saw people weren't sure what the patent pertained to - just trying to help out. There were neither black helicopters nor political intrigue involved in the two minutes of effort I expended to look it up.

For a dude who professes to want a free flow of information, the constant caustic tone and constant bashing in your posts would seem a little disingenious. Don't bother responding to me or this post. I'm out on this thread.

Ken

Originally posted by Robert Chambers-

You are so correct sir! And as an example, check out this response on the current thread titled 'Fabrique National SXS':


Originally posted by Robert Chambers-

Pigeon poop indeed!

In the five years I've been here, response to my double questions is 100 per cent.

Please, Randall...enlighten us all about this shotgun...do you have anything to offer? anything?...did you even know his gun was a Smith variation before you flew over here? c'mon Randall, let's hear it...what do you know about this shotgun? Anything? Surely you have something, after you taught us all about FN shotguns and semi-sidelocks...now please...could you teach us about this Smith variation...I know relitively little about the "Marks" variation, but what little I know, I am willing to offer...perhaps we could collaborate on this answer...What have you got Randall? knowledge or poop?...I'm sure many Smith collectors are waiting to read your response...as I am
Shoeing pigeons hardly qualifies as caustic.

The nails and shoes required for 'shoeing pigeons' must be extremely small and delicate (possibly similar to the equipment used when milking cats?) please post photos!

For what it is worth----This and the locked thread of the recent past have got to be near the lowest threads that I have read on this treasured BBS.
What or who has happened to us that it seems to be, of a sudden, unpleasant to read some of the threads?
Some of you know and most do not, but this BBS was most instrumental in helping me back to good health. It was the good words, the sharing (joyfully) of information and the friendly banter that was our hallmark and medicine that no M.D. could prescribe.
Please look into yourself, determine your motives for being here and continue as you would if talking WITH a close friend or brother.
Best,
John

Time for some of these lads to get a grip!
Not all information, is wothwhile, as a matter of fact - the world is filled with such self-important drivelmongers!

Mr Mann...I couldn't agree with you more...this is the lowest the BBS has been in recent history...a young collector turns up with what is perhaps 1 of 4 known "Marks" grade Smith trap guns (maybe rarer than the Whippet)...the rarest of all Smiths (Hunter Arms ok babies), and the regular windbags can not or will not just HONESTLY tell him what he has...His gun is so rare that there is no record of them remaining at Marlin. If fishinghole turns up and says another BBS member already sharked him, I won't be shocked...No one would tell him that his gun is too rare to shoot, and that he should probably put it away and find something else to shoot
In case you can't see what I am trying to do, I will spell it out for you... I am going to raise the bar...I am going to offer REAL data about double shotguns...I am going offer material that can be saved for future cross referencing...when the read only members arrive, I want them to bolster their files with files and photos that can't be found in most libraries...I am going to point out model variations and internal mechanisms 'til their files begin to split into new catagories...If a young collector shows up with a Smith that has the only known set of Hurst ejectors, I plan to see to it that he knows...take a look at the carefully constructed posts by Miller or researcher or eightbore and many others, do you think that kind of data came FREE to these guys...they're giving blood, and you're giving pigeon poop right along side of them..do you really think the readers come here for your latent lonely hearts club chatter?...They are here for the nuggets of information they can get from RELIABLE sources like the members listed above...well I plan to give the readers what they want...accurate history...honest technical answers...vast references on hundreds European makers..complete patent evolutions of the American and European doubles...never before seen photos of the insides of LC Smith, Ithaca, Fox, and Baker...So you just keep on, while I bring my body of reference to bear, we'll see if the readers want immediatly downloadable reference material for their records or lonely hearts club chatter...
With all the time you have spent at this bullitin system, I ask you, (self appointed) Mr. Extaordinary, what can you tell fishinghole about his rarest grade of trap shotgun? The readers are waiting, Mr.Extraordinary

First,
I suspect "fishinghole" is gone.One of the many who post looking for info and don't come back.
Second, I agree completly with my friend John Manns post. There is no reason to take this BBS down the path of so many others where keyboard cowboys post things they dare not say in person and bring down the whole board in order to make themselves feel better about other short commings. This place has been and should remain above that !

Dave K

Mr. Chambers,

First let me start off by saying im a 19 year old college student with a deep love of doubles. Im glad you worked hard to get your information, seriously. However you have belittled many on this board, often when there is no apparent reason. You may have good reason to not like some individuals, but try to keep the personal attacks off the board.
You can talk about other people all you want, but when you start going after Mr.Mann, that bothers me. When few others would give me the time of day, Mr. Mann exchanged countless emails with me. I have met him and talked to him over the phone. He is one of the nicest and most generous gentleman on this board. Many of his guns are far and wide across this country, being looked at and examined by people trying to do research. For example 4 of his Golcher guns are out on the west coast, and have been out there for a few years now, being examined by individuals that have an interest in them. You don't know Mr. Mann, so I suggest you not speak ill of him. He is probably the most respected member of this board, evident by the fact that his tag line was put there by the MODERATORS- Mr.Mann was embarrased and wanted to take it off, its not how he views himself. He certainly doesn't know everything there is to know about doubles, and he would freedly admit that, but he knows more than 99.9% of people do.

He, along with Mr. Georgi, (who you belittled earlier) are two noted experts on Lindner guns.

What I am getting at, Mr. Chambers, is that when you belittle Mr. Mann, its akin to speaking ill of my Grandfathers, and that just doesn't happen. I hope apologies are forthcoming.

Robert Chambers,
You are a toxic presence. The value of any information is based on the source, and your information loses value with each fight you pick.

And by the way, that tinfoil hat isn't working, give it a few more wraps. Doofus.

As one who values the willingness of fellow firearms enthusiasts' to share precious and valuable information that is acquired at considerable costs in terms of both correct and wrong guns bought (real world tuition), libraries paid for out of limited resources, out of print books purchased at 100 times their original cost, and endless hours collecting data, Mr. Chambers I second your thoughts and extend my gratitude for your eloquent expression of that sentiment (I just rated you a 5 star in appreciation of that sentiment).

Pride in knowledge, engaging in knowledge wrestling matches in order to show one's superiority, embitters what would otherwise be sweet. It costs nothing to be kind or helpful to another in need and the rewards are typically immense and immediate (found within).

As stated by a previous poster here, I agree everyone here has been very tolerant of my inquiries, 100% responsive and the valuable information I have found here could not have been so quickly obtained anywhere else.

The information available here fuels interest in our hobby and such information, like the tides lifts all boats in the harbor, elevates all of us.

Doug

Chambers, I don't mean to attack you, but I have been offended also by your abusive posts of late. When you stoop to attack John Mann, you are turning most of the Board against you.

You may very well have loads of information to share with us, but you've been pretty slow in showing any of it off. Aren't you the same guy who years ago embarrased yourself and everybody else sucking up to whoever it was posting as "Johann Fansoj", and stated your opinion that all American guns were nothing but "farm implements"???...Geo

I'm just a gun geek. But the matter is relatively simple for me. Talk is cheap, it takes money to buy whiskey.
Don't prattle on about what secrets you've uncovered.
You gents that have 40+ years of research aren't getting any younger. Russ is already gone. So is Bill, and who knows who all else.
Hoarding information just makes you look stingy. And when you die it's lost forever.

If it's so precious, write a book and sell it to us. See what the market actually says.

Hoarding information is petty and stupid. As to your information why try making others admire your information. Information speaks for itself. Your rants have missed very few of my favorite poster so far. I am sure that given time you will inslut them. Take another med. or deep breath or whatever you need to get a grip and perspective. The gasket that you seem about to blow is your own.

There is living room here for the expert and the dilettante, the quipster and pundit, the politically-engaged, the mechanically-challenged, the "off-topic", the just plain curious and most of the time the self-effacing drivel-monger. Despite the occasional dustup and resulting bruised egos, very few of us have managed to get Dave Weber to say "Don't make me come down there!!" If you have so managed, you're screwing with our remarkable record of tolerance and forbearance. I'd take that to heart NOW. Possible to do something positive without the gallery listening. Send "fishinghole" a message on the back channel and make him well! Might make you fit to muddle thru in the ranks of the imperfect, silly, greedy, jealous, hurtful and generally well-intentioned.

jack

Dave K ..you are correct, I will try not to engage these members further...is it too much to ask Randall and Mr. Mann to extend the very same courtesy...

Sorry Mr Newburn. I do collect primarily European, but I am not that individual..how come Johann doesn't post here any longer? Did I miss a gang bashing of Johann?

jack...I knew I was flirting with disaster by telling fishinhole about his Smith..I was hoping that if I pointed out that his gun was clearly a Smith, that the truth about rarity would come out on it's own...at least when fishinghole shows up, he will know the rarity of his trap gun...the back channel is not available to me and maybe not to fishinghole...not one member would tell fishinghole about his gun, yet they accuse me of hoarding the info...if fishinghole isn't coming back...then I am done here

Robert Chambers, Fishinghole,

I hope you're still active on this forum. It sounds like you have some experience with LCSmith SxS shotguns. I have one that has fancy scroll writing on both sides surrounding the etched block letters spelling "Marks Special". Is this something you might have information about?

~ Homesteader

Anybody?

It's a 1901 Grade 00 gun. I think the simplest engraving started with their Grade 1 guns, so this seems some thing special I'm trying to find the history about.

https://members.boardhost.com/lcsmith/msg/1713134025.html

I suggest you start a new thread, and let this one die... again.

I last spoke to Robert about 4 years ago. Not well and mostly blind. Could no longer read his computer. I don’t think he follows these forums anymore. While Robert was/is extremely knowledgeable I’m sure others can help you. Take Shotgunjones’s advice.

Homesteader, I looked at the photo of your L.C. Smith, and am extremely skeptical that this is some original and rare grade or variant. More like 100% skeptical.

Take a good look at the picture. The lock is stamped L.C. Smith in the usual location. There is dark grime, dirt, or whatever down in those stamped letters. Then look at the crude "Mark's Special" engraving. It was obviously added after the gun was case hardened. We can see remnants of the original case hardening colors. Engraving is almost always done before case hardening, because it is much tougher to cleanly cut the case hardened surface. The engraving cuts are shiny and not filled with the same grime or dirt that is seen in the stamped L.C. Smith lettering.

There is nothing here that should compel anyone to go off on a wild internet search, looking for some old defunct Mark's Hardware Store or Emporium that might have commissioned Hunter Arms Co. to produce a shotgun with Mark's name on it. There is nothing here to remotely suggest this was built as a presentation gun for Mark Twain, or Mark Zuckerberg either.


It might be entertaining to start a new Thread, just to see who might be naive enough to think you have something almost as rare as the Czar's Parker. I'd suggest you simply accept the gun for what it appears to be... a well used 00 grade L.C. Smith that has been altered with crude added engraving, well after it was built. It is not some rare variation that would be the heart's desire of any intelligent L.C. Smith collector. If it is safe to shoot, then use it as a Rainy-Day-Loan-it-to-Your-Brother-in-Law gun. Don't waste good money on a Factory Letter as you were advised on the L.C. Smith forum. Keep the money to buy some appropriate low pressure shells instead.

Very difficult to read about Chambers but that is the typical progression. My Question is just how many members on this thread have passed or are in such poor health that they cannot contribute?????

Serbus,

Raimey
rse