Sorry for the quality of the pictures. I was so busy fondeling the new stuff that I paid no attention to the old stuff ( Wife ) who was taking the pictures.

What you are seeing is two versions of essentially the same thing. Only difference being in stock and forend design and the single or double triggers.

Gun is a 20 ga with 22 inch barrels, both RIFFLED. ( I should note that the flyer I have says that the barrels are 24 inches while the tag on the gun and the representative there at the show both said 22 inches? ) Weighs in at about 6 3/4 pounds without the scope. Fit and finsh is as you would expect.

I could only see a couple of small items that I would think should be done differently. And mind you this is from a hunters perspective only.

It NEEDS a bigger recoil pad. I'll admit to being something of a recoil sissy so that my be a minority view but I think this thing will kick like a mule.

It could use a cheek piece just as is on European guns.

The top rib should be set up to accept some sort of mounting arrangement so that a non-traditional sighting device, one such as the Aimpoint Micro, can be mounted. And there needs to be more than one mounting position for the non-traditional device, one of which should be far enough forward to allow the gun to be graspec in the natural carry position, right around the chamber area.

Only UGLY item on the gun, and yes I do realize that it serves a very important function, is the adjustable barrel regulator that is at the muzzle. I did not get a very good picture of that but suffice to say it is not pretty. Kind of looks like a band around the muzzles. Ruins what would have been very nice smoth lines.

I understand the limitations of a load spicific double so I appreciate the reason for the ugly regulation device. Can not fault them for the thought.

Maybe they could make a offering of a model with traditional regulation to one load, a load of the buyers choice. I know this would add some cost as regulating is more art than science but doing away with the ugly thing at the end of that graceful gun would be a SIGNIFICANT improvement.

And yes.......!! The shot show is something. You can not walk through it in one day if you are at all interested in any aspect of shooting or hunting.

Thanks for very informative post.
CSMC 20 GA SxS with 22" rifled barrels - very innovative and daring by CSMC.
Under American BATF&E regulations, would this firearm be considered a rifle??
Thanks.

I want to know more. Are these something that is planned or are they currently available? Any idea of the price?

Here in Florida it would be classified as a shotgun even though it has rifled barrels. Kind of confusing to me too.

If I understood correctly they are doing them to order. Base price is listed as $3995. The scope(Leupold) and mounts (Talley) along with the extra milling to the rib so they will mount is a $500 upgrade.

The beavertail forend cost $175 extra. A single trigger is also a $175 upgrade.

Assisted opening (which if the ones I fondeled at the show had it is not necessary because they opened plenty easy) is a $450 upgrade.

They offer 3 better grades of wood, $350, $600 & $900 respectively. From what I saw though the standard was PLENTY good.

After handeling them I will say that as a fast short range hunting gun they will work very well.

What's the market? Who and what game is it made for? Big bear or moose in the alders?

"Daring" is the operative word. This scoped-gun in this economy, is it for the hunter who has everything? Just another gun?

Fishdoc
Did CSMC whether they could make a set of barrels to fit my RBL?

I can't wait to see Tony at the at the SCI show. (I hope they are there).

Jerry

Too cool. Did they say estimated delivery dates??
I want one. what did they say was their accuracy with brand X slugs? (of course it will be the smallest gorup shot). But all in all, this is amazing to me that an American company can even contemplate afirearm such as this , much less get finished samples out for viewing and ordering.

For all of the naysayers who have slammed the RBL's/CSM/Tony G. for delays; at least Tony is willing to break new ground and try something different.

I will seriuously consider making an order once I see the details.

Did they say what the rifling was set up for; sabot, Brenneke or Foster type slugs?
2 3/4 or 3 inch?
I think 2 3/4 is plenty!! especially for that weight

Rifling set up for sabots. I did not ask about chamber legnth but I should have. From what I know sabots shoot better out of a size spicific chamber.

As for usefulness.............. Like a lot of other things, you can bust clays and birds and whatever perfectly well with a inexpensive pump shotgun but lots of folks want a nice double. Same here I'd say. And there is a market, how big is the question.

In fact I personally am awaiting delivery, should be in the next 10 days to 2 weeks, of a rifled 20 ga double built on a converted 16 ga FN sidelock action. Perfect arm for the wild hogs we hunt in the thick woods, swamps and palmettos here in NE Florida. I think plenty of other applications around.

And for what it is worth, with a NEW action that is as strong as the RBL is, and with the ability to self regulate( UGLY though it is!)and with access to Brass shotgun shells and a reloader I see no reason not to expect that some VERY stout stuff can be run down the bore of the CSMC 20 ga. Of course the lack of a recoil pad will come back to haunt you: and you will pay for the nice light weight..........!

Fishdock,

I agree! One could shoot and hunt with a rifled slug barrel on a pump or autoloader but a rifled SxS, that's like an elephant gun for shotgun only deer zones! For those of us who read Capstick and Colonel Corbett when we were young perhaps the thought of owning a double rifle, or in this case a double rifled shotgun, will bring back the dreams of our youth?

Mark

There are many areas where rifles aren't allowed for deer hunting. In Ohio I can use archery equipment, shotgun, handgun or muzzleloader. Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, New York to name a few are similar.

You can put rifled barrels on a 20 gauge, but you can't put choke tubes in a 16. Yea you've got the market figured out there.

Sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. I haven't hunted deer with a gun since 1997 (Ohio, and I primarily bowhunt), but this would be tempting. For some reason, I can't see the pictures(?). Any links to other photos? I would order one as soon as they start the ads. This with a second set of 30" multi-choked barrels would be delightful. So, there's a market of at least one buyer...

Keadog,

What a great idea! 22" rifled and 30" multi-choked barrels! I want one...

I do 90% of my deer hunting with shotgun and slugs, great idea.

Based on a couple of comments here it may be that there is some misconseption as to how powerful the typical 20 ga sabot load is. On average they throw a 260 grain bullet at somewhere between 1600 and 1900 FPS. In essence not much different than a very hot .44 magnum out of a levergun.

Of course what someone with a reloader and those brass cases and full sized bullets (62 cal)might come up with is another thing. Which brings me back to thinking about shooting a load such as that out of a 6 3/4 pound gun!!!!!

You won't even notice it when a 500 lb. boar with 5" ivories is bearing down on you through the palmettos. That's a promise.

I use a Ruger N0.1 in .45-70 with either a Barnes Original 300gr. or a Rem. HP 300 gr. at 2300 fps. Have been using a Leupold M8-3X but plan to switch to a big aperture and moonlight front ivory bead for the thick stuff.

Thanks for the post. Stan

Thanks so much for putting this thread up. I have been looking for one of these for a couple years - no one makes one new to be sold in this country as far as I can tell. I got an e-brochure today and am ordering one in the AM: pistol grip, beavertail, double triggers and one of the wood upgrades to be decided after talking with the folks at CSMC. Not getting assisted opening as not many successful third shots where I hunt. I love pretty wood but this gun will be a shooter, so I'm not sure what to do about that. Any thoughts on that?
BTW, the answer I received to my question indicated the barrels will NOT interchange with the RBL (I was thinking of buying one of the available RBLs to use in sporting clays now and ordering a set of rifled barrels). No ETA on delivery.
I bet they sell a lot (but I'm usually wrong on this stuff). Lots of shotgun only places and it would be a fun hog gun too. I may actually gun hunt next year here in Ohio (although I'm guessing I won't have it by then). I usually bowhunt through the entire season but I'm excited to get this thing.

I had a 12ga benelli black eagle (3" gun) and it wt less than this darling, and I shot a ba'ar with a brenke 1 3/8oz 3" mag slug, now THAT is recoil............

Gary

If you're buying one think long and hard about the recoil pad, it's needed.

As for the wood. The samples they had there, which were I think the standard wood, were very nice. Finished in a soft oil look. Should be easy enough to maintain.

Ask them to mount sling swivels!!! Such a gun needs them.

And discuss the sight arrangement. Top rib should be drilled and tapped so a alternative sight, such as the Aimpoint Micro, can be easily attached. It's a natural for close work.

Last thing I'd ask them, at least for here in Fl where I'd use it for hogs and deer in the thick stuff is if I could get the barrels at 20 inches. Might make it look a bit short but then the regulating device on the end of the barrels already ruins the lines so go for function.

I'll say it again, a fine pieces of work and a great idea on their part.

Just ordered. Carol was surprised, asking where I saw them as they haven't "advertised" yet. When I told her here, she laughed and said they had taken several orders already. So:
pistol grip, beavertail, double triggers and 3X wood. They wouldn't drill and tap or install sling swivels. Wouldn't want any shorter barrel personally.
You also get to pay in full at order, no discount. She says 2 1/2 months. Hmmmm?
No one else is making one, so I'm not complaining.
Thanks again...

Keadog if you don't mind what was the price? harrell68@acsalaska.net

Not at all. $3995, $175 for Beavertail, $350 for 3X and $35 Shipping/handling/insurance. Same option pricing as RBLs and assisted opening, single trigger available. Wood up to Exhibition grade, which was tempting, but I'll drop and scratch this gun in the woods, I just know it. Also Leupold 2X scope with custom mounting offered @ $500, but it wasn't the scope I wanted. Bigger base price than RBLs, but case colors standard and the barrels are rifled after all. I was looking at a Dakota slug at Steve Barnett @ $4500, right about what this gun will be. I'm really looking forward to it. I was a little unhappy having to pay in full with no discount, but if delivery is anywhere near 2.5 months (which I just can't believe based on past threads here), I'll be fine with it. Ohio deer gun is always 1st Monday after Thanksgiving, so lets hope for by summer-ish.

Do they have any guarantee about accuracy?.
I'd be very interested in one..I'd shoot home cast Ball through it though ifn i got one.
Does anyone have a Close Up of the ugly regulator bit...can't seem to see it to clearly...how does it work
What a COOL idea
cheers
Franc

Congats Keadog!

Please be sure to post many, many photos when you do receive your Rifled 20!

Mark

Will your gun come milled for the Talley mounts or does one need to buy the milling, mounts and scope as a package?

i would mount small but good quality electroptical holosight like docter or zeiss on that piece instead of that stupid scope.
if they can guarantee certain size groups with specific sabot load or two the thing might be worth owning.

Carol said they wouldn't tap and drill other than for their Leupold 2.5X (not at all what I want). They must have bought a bunch of the scopes??? For Ohio (and most of the shotgun Midwest IMHO) I would want a 1 - 3 or 4X variable with a bigger objective lens.
I agree I would have preferred the gun be regulated for a specific load, which I would have bought several cases of.
I have wanted a rifled side by side slug gun for years, so no looking back. Don't really know why, I'm primarily a bowhunter and have, for the last 12 years, either bowhunted or not gone out during gun season.
As far as worth, I don't plan to sell it, so that's relative to the buyer. "Worth" will be my kids' problem one day, not mine...

i feel this piece will be quite collectible in the future. it will be worth more then 16ga with vr, sst, sg-pgfe (a very rare variation of rbl).

Any idea if you could order just a barrel set?

She said the barrels weren't going to be compatible with the 20 G. RBL (!/?) when I asked that very question, as I was going to buy one of the left over RBLs for spring sporting clays and order a set of barrels. Let me know if you find out anything different.

I asked CSM directly and they told me no barrels would be offered for retrofit to existing RBL 20's

Gentlemen: In regards to rifled slug barrels generally the rifles are quite shallow but sharp. My question is can buckshot be fired through a rifled slug barrel satisfactorily. This would add versatility. Buckshot is allowed in my state in many areas and situations. Thanks

I don't think there is a "safety" issue with firing buckshot through it but if I understand correctly there are spread issues. Seems that the rifling makes the buckshot spread out VERY fast, or so I hear.

It's also worth noting that what you will generally find is that in a 20 ga a 3" loading of #2 buck is the best you will find. Not big enough shot unless it's a very close one.

That said might not be a bad thing to have should you end up trailing a deer. If he jumps a couple of barrels of #2 buck would be usefull.

Another thought is to contact these folks, http://www.dixieslugs.com/

They make a load for the 12 ga that has 3 very big balls and I understand they are working on the same for a 20 ga.

Fish,

I can't argue with anyone saying they want a recoil pad on this gun, however I can tell you from extensive experience as the owner of what is probably the worlds lightest bolt actioned 20ga rifled slug gun, (Tar-Hunt Mountaineer barreled action, custom bedded in a Bansner Hi-tech lightweight stock), that recoil is still very manageable with a gun of this weight and current 20ga slug loads. In fact while my gun does have a recoil pad, it only weighs 6.5lbs with scope and rings and I have no problem spending an afternoon at the range shooting through several boxes of high velocity slugs with it.

For reference I would suspect that the perceived felt recoil from this gun, even without a recoil pad, is less than that from a standard 12ga slug with a recoil pad.

JRH

The CSMC Rifled 20 ga looks really interesting. Wtihout having had an opportunity to handle one though, in pictures at least, the optional mounted scope looks much too high for the quick, instinctive shooting a gun like this is intended for. It seems to me that if you quickly mounted and "cheeked" it like any other shotgun, you would be looking under the scope instead of through it. Even for slower, more deliberate shooting, it does not seem to offer much, if any "cheek weld".

Express rifles sold in Europe, Chapuis for example, offer optional higher stock combs for use with scopes to avoid this problem. Their US importers don't always offer them here.

As it is, gun seems probably only suitable for iron sights or maybe a low mounted red dot sight. If I ever bought one, it would probably get a red dot and sling swivels installed immediately. Another good choice, which might drive some people crazy, would be to use the factory mounted scope, but have an after-market adjustable comb installed.

Vangulil,

That is an observation I immediately made as well and is a very common fault with US made slug guns. Even the Savage 210 which is a dedicated slug gun suffers from the same low comb.

Fortunately, at least for hunting purposes, there is a very easy fix for this that also has an added benefit. The Beartooth comb raising kit is a neoprene sleeve that fits over the buttstock and allows for spacers of varying thickness to adjust the comb height. While at first thought this might shock the traditional classic double hunter, in reality this product would not only correct the comb height but it would also the protect the buttstock from stratches and dings while hunting in thick cover with the gun. The best part of course is that the entire kit can be installed and removed in minutes. Not only would the kit protect the gun in the field, it would allow you to still off its nature beauty before and after the hunt...

JC

JRH,

Great recommendation!

I hunt waterfowl with a very nice M23 and sometimes, an even nicer M21. I always use a stock protector. After the season I remove it and not surprising I have no new scratches!

Mark

Has anyone heard if this 20 bore has a 2 3/4" or 3" chamber? As noted in an earlier email, it would be wonderful to know what ammo is being used to regulate this gun. I think is great that an American company has the foresight to bring out such a gun. Looking forward to shooting this shotgun in the near future.
Dave

As "alink" says above, the rifling in this new gun is probably quite shallow. It looked that way to me as I looked through one at Vegas. Keith Kearcher and I discussed the possibility of back boring to remove virtually all rifling except the final six inches or so, thus making it into a "paradox" like gun. This should make it much more usable on birds, and perhaps just as usable with the sabot/slugs.

If any of you get a chance to look through the barrels, please try to estimate the twist rate. I was too caught up in the "Gee Whiz" moment that I did not even consider checking that. I wonder if full slugs could be stabilized, or only the much lighter sabots.

Look up Westley Richards Faunetta 20 ga ammunition. Should be worth re-inventing this certridge for this little gem. Will 20 ga shotgun barrels be available to complete the set?
Mike

I ordered one as soon as I saw it even though I just passed through my second hunting season waiting for my RBL 28. They said 60-90 days on the slug gun so I am planning on at least a year or two. Beretta makes a similar gun but it is impossible to get in the US, I tried for years. I am very excited about this gun for hogs, deer, and maybe bear.... I just hope I get it before I'm dead. I'm too old for anymore CSMC guns.

i can't imagine the thing having 70mm chambers. i examined 1970 vintage fn made browining o/u 20ga superlight? lightning? or ? on the bottom receiver and it had 76mm chamber sutable for both 70mm and 76mm cartridges. could not imagine firing mag in that thing, but it's certainly possible.

Seems that the only real advantage to 3 inch chambers is about 100FPS gain in most loading over the 2 3/4. Makes sense to me that 2 3/4 would be sufficent, in fact the one I have comming has only 2 3/4 inch chambers, but in a commercial offering it might be that 3 inch is viewed as necessary?

On the other hand, from what I have read it seems that 2 3/4 inch sabots shoot best in 2 3/4 inch chambers and sense they are the standard, and lord knows the gun will be rated to a great extent by how tight it shoots a group, that they might stick with that...........

winchester, federal loaded 5/8oz sabot slugs and lightfield had 7/8oz one, but i bet most of what you see on local shelves in 20ga will be in marked 3inch on the box.

The gun is set up for saboted rounds. There are a lot of options out there. The most common are 250-260 grain loads traveling at from 1600 to 1900 FPS depending on what literature you read.

Plenty of other options out there, up to a 3 1/2 inch monster that the Hastings people make. Not all of them are for rifled barrels but a lot are.

A 260 grain bullet at 1600=1900 FPS is about the same as the original 45-70 load with the 405 grain bullet at about 1200-1300 FPS.

What would be interesting with this gun, sense it has a adjustable regulation system and you can be sure it's plenty strong, is to get brass shells and load full sized bullets in it........

I am wondering how many on this board have ordered the 20 bore rifled offering from Conn Shotgun? As you might guess I have ordered one and am trying to get a feel for interest from other like shooters. regards,
Dave

Some of us were ahead of the curve. Sometime next week I have a converted SXS double 20 rifled arriving. The smith has been working on it over the last couple of months. Don't know how I will like it but the idea is very sound.

About ten years ago, Steve Bodio ordered from me a Bruchet slug gun, in 12 gauge. He bought the gun specifically for his trips to Mongolia, to eliminate the need for several guns. It was regulated to 60 yards with Federal slugs(customer's choice) and produced a 1 1/2" inch group that looked like a pair of eyes looking back at you from the target, at that range, and would have been useful to about 100 yards, if your game was on that day. It was not rifled, and was choked IC and MOD, to use birdshot with the rear sight folded down. He had his choice of stock, and he chose a semi-pistol grip with a cheek piece, and the traditional Darne sling. He would hunt big game in the morning, fold down the sight, remove the sling, and shoot birds in the afternoon, and he didn't need more than one gun in Mongolia. All was well.
The gun was featured in the DGJ, and was, near as I can tell, a far better all around choice than a rifled RBL in 20 would be for both big game, and birds. It was the only specific slug gun I ever sold.
I can't figure out all the excitement. It's been done, better, already.
Best,
Ted

the sabot principle of shotgun ammo has been around since early 70s. i have smith & wesson ammo from this period.
most euro guns from france, italy, spain,.... were smooth bore guns regulated for plain lead slug. the english still make that thing with end of barrels being rifled which is next to useless. this is more specialized gun with fully rifled shotgun tubes and is made in usa plus there are many former military people on this board which by nature tend to be very nationalistic. in aggregate this generates excitment.

Has anyone looked closely at the RBL adjustable regulation at the muzzle? I found it distracting (ugly) and would have much preferred another system.

Re the regulation device.

If you read the first post where I put this on the forum after looking at them at the Shot Show you will see that you are not alone. That thing is UGLY...............

I'd bet a dime to a dollar that if they offered a model regulated for a single load they might be surprised at the response. Even if I did not already have a converted gun coming I would not be inclined towards what is a truly fine gun simply because of how UGLY that thing on the end is.

Still, the rest of the gun is really nice......you can not fault them for much else that is not easily remidied.

ANd this too: The job ( In reality a ART. ) of regulating each each gun to a customers chosen load would be EXPENSIVE and time consuming. So maybe they made a smart business decision.....

its good looking piece if want to see truly ugly stuff visit blaser jadgwaffen site sometime.

Ted, what's the price of the Bruchet these days? I think the attraction of the CSMC may be affordability.

At the time, the gun came in about 1K more than CSMC is getting, now. But, it's a brave new world, these days.
Europeans seem far more interested in combination guns of any stripe than Americans, but, a combination slug gun-bird gun is interesting, all the same.
If I had to fire slugs at something, I'd look into one of the Tar-Hunt 870s. I have a "Whelen" streak in me, and only find very accurate single projectile guns interesting.
Best,
Ted

not sure i would even consider dedicated slug gun. i can extend hunting range by at least 50m by using modern muzzleloader. just looked over goofy w-german jps 12x12/7.62x63 which could add even more meters to max range, but it could not be used in shotgun only zone and there goes it's usefulness. not having scope mount is would be good mixed bag piece in rifle zone. the marking made is western germany was kinda nostalgic. too bad it was expensive and pathetically ugly.

I get sub 1.5" groups out of my Browning BPS with a rifled Hastings barrel. Just so damn heavy to carry.

Recently, I was asked to help appraise an estate. One gun that I had never heard of and could'nt evaluate was a Parker reproduction DHE 20 gauge with a set of 400/450 barrels. It had been to Africa and was used to kill a buffalo according to the wife of the deceased. It was so barrel heavy that I think he must of had a gun bearer. Do you have any idea who might have added the rifle barrels? Don Hardin.

Recently, I was asked to help appraise an estate. One gun that I had never heard of and could'nt evaluate was a Parker reproduction DHE 20 gauge with a set of 400/450 barrels. It had been to Africa and was used to kill a buffalo according to the wife of the deceased. It was so barrel heavy that I think he must of had a gun bearer. Do you have any idea who might have added the rifle barrels? Don Hardin.

Given a choice between my single 20 with Winchester sabots and my 12ga pump with standard slugs, disadvantage goes in the direction of the 12. In my personal experience,the new technology is that good.
CSMC took the right approach with the 20 and it is an honest 150 yard deer gun.
Don't bother with a pad either. Just not necessary

Tom