I just ran across what appears to be a late vintage Tobin -- marked "Tobin Arms Mfg Co/Woodstock, Ont. Canada". 12 gauge, 30" barrels. Bores very clean, slight dimple in one barrel. Wide matted rib. Not rust or pitting. Case hardening is bright inside the forearm but nowhere else. Hard to tell, but it might have the black "oxypyro" finish on locks and barrels. Wood pretty well worn but intact. Serial number in the 19,xxx range suggesting it's a Crandall gun. Until I read the posts about Tobins here, I never heard of the make. I have an Elsie and a Lefever, so the sideplates caught my eye. The tag on this one is around $250. Worth pursuing?

Only if you are into obscure Americana, and don't mind the trouble of using lower pressure stuff.
The number of Tobins I have seen that are off the face is way out of proportion to other guns of similar age. I suspect the design may be more prone to this due to the material removed from the frame to house the lockwork-the sideplates only mount the sears and sear springs, hence, the gun has more in common with a boxlock than a true sidelock. The off the face condition is more apt to be a bent frame than wear to the lump or knuckle, and, I supect modern, hot loads used in an old gun are usually to blame.
I wouldn't sell my restocked 16 for less than I have in it, but, I decided long ago not to impose any durability tests on it. Low pressure 2 1/2" English stuff is all it gets now. Pretty nice weather only.
If there are case colors in protected areas, the gun was case colored.
Best,
Ted

Thanks, Ted. The lockplates were a very deep blue-black, but the marks and light engraving were crisp and didn't appear polished out or buffed. It didn't look like a reblue to me, and I've seen a few. The dog's head engraved on the sideplate, though, was probably the most ill-formed hound I've ever seen. The frame was dull bright (does that make sense?) with no trace of color, but not polished. The barrels had just a trace of movement when I shook the gun off my hip, and my guess was that if it had been fired a lot it had also been well cared for. Any other thoughts on a Tobin like this would be appreciated before I go back for a second look.

I don't pretend to know anything about Tobins, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night either. But I bought a Tobin at the Tulsa gun show 3 or 4 years ago and asked about it here. Mine is a Norwich Conn mfg 12 ga, with Trojan Nitro Steel stamped on both bbls. Serial # is 84XX, and the side plates are blue/black. I thought they had probably been blued, but was told by the board here that it is a Black Beauty model, and supposed to be black. Ain't this place great?

Pretty sure you meant to say "Black Diamond" grade. Black Beauty is a Baker gun.
Some of the Shapleigh hardware Tobin guns were called "Blue Diamond" guns, and had blued frames. I don't know how much difference there was between the blue finish and the black "Pyro oxidized" Tobin finish.
My 16 is case colored, and marked "Tournament". Someday, we might know who the Tournament guns were built for.
$250 is a parts gun price, and a cheap repair can be had at Mike Orlen's shop, but, I wouldn't put too much money into it. I'd also look for a different gun that wasn't loose.
Best,
Ted

Ted, you must see all the poor condition Tobins. Most I've seen and recorded are in pretty good shape for their age. What has impressed me about them is I sure don't see the cracked stocks I do on L.C. Smiths. I'd say $250 is a deal for most any old double in any kind of reasonable condition.

This is a Black Diamond from Norwich --

I've seen a cracked stock or two on Tobins, but, I wish I had a dollar for every 'Smith I'd ever seen with a cracked stock!

I'd buy the gun thats for sale, here, on the for sale board!

The above looks identicle to a 12 I had Mike put a shim on. The gun has been used pretty regularly by a good friend, who, still considers me a friend, so, it was a pretty good deal, I guess.

It seems our poster detected a bit of looseness in his example.....
Best,
Ted

Mine looks just like the one in Researcher's picture.
After I posted it as Black Beauty I got to wondering if it should have been Black Diamond. Now if I can just remember it til next time.

I took a closer look at the Tobin today. The serial number is 1936x, making it one of the very last. Barrels, frame and sideplates are all the deep blue-black and do not appear refinished. Is there a way to tell whether these late Tobins qualify as Black Diamond or Blue Diamond models? The barrels have no maker's mark or anything else, no chamber lengths or proof marks whatsoever. Screwheads are all clean and neat. There's a hairline crack behind the lock, the bottom rib is a bit loose and will need resoldering, but all in all not bad for the money and the wood will make an interesting project.

Now to the real issue: I'm a Virginian traveling in The Republik of Kalifornica. Last summer in North Carolina I walked away with a nice Lefever on the strength of a VA driver's license and a valid CC permit. No such luck here, even with a 75 year old long gun. If I decide to get it, I'll have to ship the Tobin back to my gun club shop. Hmmmmm....

Your gun is the Tobin Black Diamond Grade #55, which in their Canadian catalogue of 1911 was priced at $35,or $55 with single trigger and auto ejectors. Because your gun is marked G.B.Crandall the gun was made after 1922. At this time,Mr, Crandall took over the business.He built a limited number of guns from the inventory of parts remaining from the defunct Tobin Arms Company.
The Tobin factory still exists in Woodstock but sadly selling domestic light fittings rather than shot guns.I have seen Tobin guns sold in the price range of $200-1750. High grade guns are seldom seen. $250-300 would seem appropriate for your gun.

Who's gun would that be, Roy? Dave (Researcher) already knew his was a Black Diamond, as did h d hawgr. The post by Valman noted engraving of a dog on a lockplate, and case colors, which pretty much rules it out as a Black Diamond #55, as the catalog says it is a mid-priced gun with line engraving, and a black finish.
Which gun are you talking about?
Best,
Ted

I had my wires crossed!Iam talking about researchers gun. Woodstock Tobin made the same model. For the record having seen the transaction records I can confirm that all Tobins machinery and tooling was transfered from Norwich to Woodstock hence the identical gun.

I suppose a Crandall built gun could be a mis-mash of previously available features, like engraving and a black finish with some case colored hardening thrown in for good measure.
I like Tobins, but, sometimes the market gets it perfect, and the better guns win. A Tobin isn't a Fox, or an LC Smith or a Parker. I truly believe that high pressure ammunition is and was the death of these old guns. Too many of them out there are off the face while looking about like Researcher's gun up there, pretty good for 100 years. The stock dimensions usually are short, with too much drop. The splinter forearm tends to be impossibly small. Tight bores, chambers and tight chokes have, for the most part, passed into history.
They can be MADE into a passable field gun, with an understanding of the limitations. They don't typically come that way.
And at that point, if you had started with a Fox, or a Parker, you might get some of the money back.
By the way, thanks for clearing that up, Roy.
Best,
Ted

Some of the very late Crandall guns don't even have the true Clarance Wollam action with the floating V-shaped mainspring powering the hammer and acting as the cocking rod. He fitted a coil mainspring and follower on the sideplate, getting closer to a sidelock.

The two Norwich catalogues I have seem to be 1906 and 1907 and don't have the Black Diamond Model in them, but the 1907 came with a flyer introducing the Black Diamond and it is stamped "Received Nov 7, 1908." It mentions that they would finish up other of their grades in the "Pyro-Oxidized" black finish as well. I tracked down one of Frank Major Tobin's grandsons and did an article on Frank's gun in The Double Gun Journal, Volume Eight, Issue 1. It was a top-of-the-line No. 60 Model Grade and had the Pyro-Oxidized black finish. It looked like the gun pictured in the Canadian catalogues as a Regal Grade No. 250.

When I visited Woodstock in September 1994, there was a discount shoe store in part of the old Tobin factory building.

I have three Crandall-era catalogues of his Tobin guns and none mention the Pyro-Oxidized black finish. Crandall's guns were graded A to E from lowest to highest. The E-Grade shown in the catalogues appears to have serial number 19391. By the latest catalogue he had dropped the cheaper A and B grades and added ann E-Special grade at the top end.

Thaks, Roy. This one has double triggers and extractors. The wood might be a bit better than standard, but not exceptional, and the buttplate looks like a generic partly grooved, gutta percha type of the period. I guess this and the serial number make it the ultimate factory-made parts gun.

If this works, I am showing a Norwich Tobin 16 I bought recently. This is a second attempt at photo posting, no real addition to this thread's content.

Terry, very nice Tobin! I'd like to see that gun. Maybe next time I'm moving projects down to Keith we could get together? Like half of the Norwich Tobins I've looked at, it doesn't match any of the pictures in the two catalogues I have. Are the barrels Trojan Nitro, Krupp or DeMoya?

Barrels are Krupp.

I would enjoy getting together either here or at Keith's.

Good lookin' Tobin, however.
Bet you have the only one on your block.
Best,
Ted

Terry/researcher, I owned Woodstock Tobin #16261. It was in similar condition to yours. The gun was purchased in 1916 by an M.D. practicing in Saskatchewan, I purchased the gun from his son a retired army officer. The gun was a 12.G. and was finished equivalent to the model 100 trap or duck gun, as seen in the Woodstock, Tobin catalogue. The barrels were 30 inch,Krupp steel.It had 3 inch chambers. One unusual feature was the use of recessed chokes, both barrels being full choke. The engraving was border style with a duck in flight on both lock plates.It was stocked in excellent french walnut.The action was tight on the face despite 70 years of service.
The highest grade Woodstock Tobin that I have seen was a model 200 12.G. with 2 sets of barrels 30&28 inch,auto ejectors and double triggers. serial # was 17899. This gun also had Krupp Barrels. A former employee of Crandall told me that the the high grade guns were sent to England to be engraved.I decided against purchasing this gun because the action had been over stressed and as a result was badly off the face.

Crandall went on and on about his Super-Bore in his catalogues. I think he was after some of the A.H. Fox Gun Co.'s Super-Fox market share with his D-Grade "Special Long Range Super-Bore Duck Gun" --

Hey, Terry,
Feel free to post the photo I sent you, if you wish....
Best,
Ted

Here is Ted's Tobin 16. Nice looking!

The lever is way to the right on my 16, and the case colors are pretty nice, except on the bottom of the frame. I doubt it got used a whole lot.

Tobinites may notice that front wood is a bit more generous than what Frank Major Tobin thought you should get. Carol, at Ahlman's Custom Gun thought the wood should have fluer de lis checkering. I didn't argue.

Glad I did the new stock and Stan Baker bore work on this gun, but, don't know if I'd ever find anybody who would give me anything for it. Keep that in mind with a Tobin you are rebuilding.

28" barrels, choked loose IC and loose MOD. Stan Baker died the week he sent it back to me.

My only conventional break action shotgun at this time. I shoot it well, and love it. Wish I had a buck for every time a guy at the club has asked to see my old 'Smith....

Thanks Terry. Enjoy your 16.
Best,
Ted

Of course it looks good, Ted never uses it. After making that great shot with his Darne he regulated everything else to the gun cabinet and its only the Darne that finds itself, as Lowell would say, "In that coveted place behind the kitchen door"!!!

Ted uses it every chance he gets! But, in difference to the age of the gun (about 100 years) it tends to get used in the early part of either grouse or pheasant season, in bluebird conditions.
I'm going to make that stockpile of Eley VIP 2 1/2 inch ammunition last, also.
After I got the 16 Tobin back from Stan,( he did a bit more than just open the chokes, the bores are back bored, forcing cones smoothed and lengthened, and some other stuff he didn't tell me, they look like consistant, mirrored tunnels) and put it together, I was so excited to use it, I went grouse hunting with it, having not fired a shot with it. I got one shot, at one grouse that day, and I got him. So, I don't know if I could ever sell it, anyway. I own two guns that I've done that with, both are 16s and neither are French.
Best,
Ted

Darne has a nicely checkered butt, and doesn't go behind the kitchen door.

The armourer tuned Mossberg 500 is usually there, with the S&W 360 PD in my waistband. I have been playing a bit more with the Trooper MKIII, however.

Makes me feel a bit like Dirty Harry.

Right tool for the job, I always say....
Best,
Ted

I have a late modle Regal 250 12ga, its top lever is to the left, it is a Woodstock gun. It origionally had sling swivals

Tim

Ted, what I meant to say in a round about way is Beautiful Tobin!!!

So, Valman, what happened? One would think the gun 'nazis in Kalifornica would be happy to rid the state of one more old double posthaste.
Did you get the Tobin?
It would further seem that I'm not the only one who has noticed some Tobins with issues 'twixt the barrels and the standing breech.
Best,
Ted

Sorry, off topic, Ted. I don't recall seeing smoothened granite-like rocks in Texas as those in the photo of that elegant Tobin. Did you get them on a beach and taken them home in your saddlebags?

Neighbors rock garden, hostas, and digital camera. Only thing that comes out of Texas, is steers and queers, or, so I've heard.

I've also heard the only good thing that comes out of Texas is 35W. But, I doubt that.

This is Minnesota. I live in the Anoka county sand plain, and most rocks that are here, were brought here. I don't have a clue where the rocks came from, but, as a rule of thumb there's no shortage of rocks in MN. Most farmsteads north of the twin cities will let you fill a pickup with them for a few bucks.
Best,
Ted

Ted,

I didn't mean to imply that I've never seen an off-face Tobin. I just haven't seen them in disproportionate numbers.

In fifty years of looking at American (and Canadian) doubles I'm sure I've seen every make out there badly done to.

Dave

Dave,
I would probably have a collection of Tobins now, if so many of them weren't messed up in that one regard. I don't know if it is always the guns fault, as I know of a couple of examples where the guns were passed down to kids after the owners bought spanky new repeaters, and the kids were allowed to shoot, play, disassemble or otherwise do whatever with them.
I HAVE seen a disproportionate number of off the face Tobins. That's just the way it went in my search and observations.
As it worked out, I fixed up the nicest one I found. And, I realized, I sure don't need more than one Tobin around my house.
Mine has not so much in common with what it looked like when new, but, it fits me, and I shoot it well. Hope you don't think that is too badly done!
Best,
Ted

Ted, et. al.: I'm back from the left coast without the Tobin. The gun was indeed loose at the breech, plus the bottom rib was detached under the forend. If anyone else is interested, it's probably still tucked away at the far right end of the long-gun rack at 4 Seasons Outfitters in San Luis Obispo. The boys there were helpful and easy to deal with. Thanks to all for the advice and for the pix.

Keep looking. 12 gauge guns are out there, you want the one that the purchaser died and granny kept in a dry, indoor closet, not the one given to the kids, and used to play cowboys and indians.
Best,
Ted

Teddy, I couldn't agree more with the one that you would want. But when I was a kid granny didn't hand out the guns, it was grandpa, and you sure better had respected them like he had taught you and at the end of the day bring them in and clean them, even if it was only a Sears S x S.

tim

Well, Timmy, I knew several families that had either no, or, absentee fathers, and the kids did pretty much what they wanted to with his stuff that was left in the house.

In one case, mom wasn't present at the home more than a couple of times a week. So, the kids were pretty much on their own. The place looked EXACTLY like Beevis and Butthead's shack.

My Dad didn't even have a lock on his gun cabinet when I was a kid. I knew better.

But, that wasn't the case in every home back then.

Best,
Ted