How many of you, have had this close of a call while hunting? Good thing he had a good double rifle for a backup! The best I can do is tell about a duck shot coming straight on, that the dead Teal landed precisely between my feet. BION! Check this video out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVaD_cOX5so

Interesting to see one of these that isn't a cat trapped in an enclosure. Johan Calitz is the PH in this clip and has a well earned reputation as one of the finest and most ethical hunters in Africa today. A friend spends about a month with him every summer, mainly in the Okavongu. Interesting, by the reaction of the cat, it appears it was the client who stopped him with a brain shot. Good lesson, that even when with the best, one needs to be able to look after oneself as well.

As a lifelong hunter I find it unbelievable that someone would want to shoot such a magnificient creature. Why? Just to be able to say you killed one and now have it's hide on your den floor? I'm about as far as you can get philosophically from a PETA supporter but "Sport Hunting" of this type has never made any sense to me. As you may suspect; while I have kept a few sets of deer antlers over the years I have no trophy mounts in my home. I also imagine their our other here who believe differently and their entitled to their opinions.
Jim

What drives me a little nuts, Jim, is the "find it unbelievable that someone would want to shoot such a magnificent creature" attitude. I can't speak for the client, but I assure you Johan equally appreciates the magnificence of that lion. You make the same basic argument as those who oppose shooting beautiful, elegant deer and lovely song birds such as doves. Leaves me feeling bad for the ugly old steer that caught a nail through the brain. He was simply eaten and made into someone's - maybe our - shoes. Hardly a noble end. But then maybe he was not magnificent or pretty enough? At least that lion, shot from a region with a sustainable population, will be appreciated by that hunter. And probably longer and more deeply than a pair of shoes or a ribeye. Not trying to say you should change your own desires to shoot a lion, Jim, but perhaps to be a bit less judgemental of those who would go to Africa to hunt one.

Different opinions are O.K. with me, Jim. That's what makes the board interesting and a treasure to many others around the world.

I agree with you. When I was young and was teased as a young Hemingway because of my black moustache and hair, I wanted to go to Africa and shoot a leopard like the one he posed with in Life magazine (shot by another hunter).

Now, I'd like to have a look at African wildlife, share the pleasures of a safari in good company, and take a shotgun for birds. I've lost it here for deer, too easy and too beautiful, but moose for meat and trapped for taxes still good for me.

Hard to figure, I suppose, but not different from seeing good in what a political leader does and not agreeing with everything. We're all the same in that respect whether it's politics,the church, the Legion or Lions clubs.

Regards, King

True Jim, there's not alot of people out there saying how they can't live another day unless they have a delicious plate full of lion meat!!!
I don't eat it I don't shoot it!!
However to express my opinion I don't think I ever saw a PH that didn't carry a double rifle. Give the client the long shot with his bolt action rifle or whatever he's carrying but if he wounds that animal,which happens given the size of those animals and their temperment, everyone turns to the guy carrying the double rifle!!

Personally, I wouldn't find pleasure in it. I only shoot defenseless creatures that cook up well.

I root for the lion every time I see those videos.

How many freakin' shooters are in that one, anyway?

OWD

Cobus Roos is a friend of mine in South Africa, He and his son are PHs.
He recently posted a well written essay on hunting.
To save Dave's band width, I am posting the address of his posting. It is a flower forum for those of you that like irony.

http://www.cliviaforum.co.za/forum/index.php?topic=6661.0

Best,
John

I am also of the mind that if I don't eat it why shoot it.

I reject the notion that food is the only legitimate reason for killing animals.

Hunting is first and foremost a tool for wildlife management.

Big game is not my cup of tea, I try not to judge what others do.

tim

I'm with Obsessed...five or six guns minimum, and it had to be a close call? 5 or 6 guns, and this is a sport? I also rooted for the cat.

That cat was already wounded by the client, the blond lady in the video. The guides got together and made sure the lion was recovered. To root for the lion in this video means you wanted a wound animal to go unrecovered.

By selling hunting rights for big game and small game funds are made available to preserve wildlife habitat. Most certainly some land that would go to farming or ranching becomes economically viable with hunting fees as a place for wild animals to live. Certainly some African parks and reserves would be poached out if funds generated hunting fees were not available to provide poacher control.

This bird season on my lease I killed a Bobcat in the middle of a busted up quail covey. I didn't eat it. I did eat everything else I killed. I see no difference in the ethics of sport hunting upland game and sport hunting lions. Something will eat the lion.

In regard to the number of shooters, in their defense they were hunting a wounded lion.

I always root for the lion to get away.

Best,

Mike

Interesting philosophical debate....I find the argument that "I hunt deer but would never kill a regal lion' pretty hard to digest. It's sort of like the guys who get teary eyed over some mutt but will sit around and laugh like simpletons 'cuz they killed a housecat with a shovel.

I don't have any issues with a modern big game hunt, but it's hard to deny that the past 100 years have turned what was a true adventure into just another way for a rich man to pat hisself on the back. It's no different than seeing some millionaires 'defy all odds in the face of danger' (yawn) by racing $30 million yachts up and down Lake Superior.

That lion probably had a better life than some lion they keep couped up the Cincinnati Zoo.

I don't fall for the cute looks of the lion - they are the predator bugs and I suspect they must be worse than the feral cats in the neighborhood for making the bunny rabbits and the little birdies disappear. Usefulness? at least the rabbits eat the dandelion and the birds gobble up masses of insects. I like that. Go Go Hunter.



How come no one feels for the wild boar, dress them in pink and they're just as cute as our delicious piggies and they even taste like bacon (well, sort of). Disney Land PR management works for some animals more than others. It's not fair. So what.

This lion charge came from Botswana. The woman in the beginning was the hunter who wounded simba. Johan called in extra PH's to help in sorting it out. If you take notice many of the PH's knelt down to get at the same plane with a cat on the charge. The Ph who the lion locked eyes on him and came, he was shooting a 416 right handed Dakota left handed. He knew he only had one shot and waited for the one and only shot he had. You can see the results.
Why the extra guns? There are many Ph's who do not survive a lion mauling.

sorry, but don't see the point of shooting something I won't eat. It simply takes more money than brains and they'll allow anyone to shoot at dangerous animals. Then you have six pro hunters finish the job?

I'da shot Henry Lee Lucas but I wouldn't eat him.

Why does eating something make it OK to have killed it?

Certainly the plan was not for the client to wound a lion and put everyone's life at risk. Once the risk had been created they tried to minimize it by bringing in six shooters.

And yes, in this world all it takes to go hunt lions in Africa is money, no IQ test required.

I have never been and can't afford to go but it certainly looks like a thrill to me and I would love to go. And the camera safari has no appeal to me either, just the hunting kind.

But to each is own.

Best,

Mike

This is just some "Lion" food for thought. Here in Louisiana, in New Orleans in particular, there is a restaurant, Tipitina's, that sells all types of exotic animal steaks, including "Lion Steaks", very expensive. So, it is not a given that the meat would go to waste. There must be some that like it, or they would not still be selling it, after at least, 20 years of offering it on their menu.

binko

Yeah, why?

Best,

Mike

Killing is killing, whether is it a Partridge flushing from an old overgrown apple orchard or its a lion on the charge. Humans tend to rationalize their behavior as morally superior to something similar that they don’t agree with.

Fair chase is fair chase. I don’t hear any protests about the driven game shooting that we talk about. Where beaters drive game into the guns. What sport is that one might ask. Is it fair chase? What chance does a pheasant have under those conditions? What about the use of dogs to find you more game? Is that fair? What about decoys or calls?

Do we consider the hunter who uses a gun other than a double less a sportsman? The fly fishing community has gotten to this point. I work with a guy who is a devout fly fisher. Ask him if he eats fish? He shudders and lectures you that you shouldn’t eat them, catch and release. Bait fisherman are rated just above lawyers and used car salesmen.

We could debate preserve bird hunts all day long. There are those that see no issue with this but once an animal has 4 legs, fur and or wet dark eyes, we collectively abhor preserve hunting.

Lest we forget, it is the hunter who is more of a conservationist that the armchair conservationists and environmentalists. Our tax dollars through the 11% excise tax, hunting license fees etc. support far more initiatives and activities that the antis. And not just for game birds and animals.


If it weren’t for hunters in the field, there would be a whole lot less lions to look at for the non hunters. I know those who don’t believe in shooting lions will agree but I only ask you to look at the elephant population in Kenya prior to their hunting ban and 5 years after the ban. Look at the Rhino situation. It has been proven time and again, when hunters are not present, poaching and human depredation skyrockets. No one other than a criminal element benefits and surely it is extremely counterproductive to the survivability of any species.

While hunters may shoot some animals, their presence deters poachers who kill far more, for purely monetary reasons, usually snaring or poisoning. Besides wanton slaughter for ivory, horn, hide , spleens, etc. or stealing resources, there is no economic benefit going to the locals as is when they are employed by the PH's.

You are either for legal sport hunting or against it. What means you use and what game you hunt is your choice. Again, another slippery slope. Whether you big game hunt, bird hunt or shoot, bow hunt, whatever, your intent is the same ,; kill an animal or bird.

I bird hunt and I big game hunt. I will tell you that I have no compelling desire to kill al lion or an elephant. Not because I somehow conjure up images of Dumbo and The Lion King. Just don’t have the desire. Now a Cape Buffalo at close range, that’s a different story. But I don’t condemn those who choose this. Is money a big deal in this? You bet. Look at the Whitetail craze that has been sweeping the country for the last 15 years. If you have the cash you can afford to go to those places and under fair chase rules, kill a 160-180 B&C Whitetail. Can I ? No. Do I condemn those who do? No. I may laugh at them a little when I hear their stories. But I can tell you the Spike buck I killed at 430 in the afternoon on the backside of a ridge and took the next 6 hours dragging him, freezing my butt off, soaked to the bone, sore and tired, to get him to my truck meant more to me than just about any other animal I ever killed.

The bottom line is that game animals are a renewable resource. Hunters pay for conservation and are the true stewards of the land. Hunters licensing fees, hunt expenses , presence in the field is far more beneficial to the animal kingdom and to humans than not allowing hunters in the field. Choose carefully who you condemn when they are engaged in lawful fair chase hunting .

Brian...I wish I'd have said that as well as you did...kudos Major.

It's not the first time it's happened, but you find yourself nude and unconscious in the Rocky Mountains. After you are aroused and fully erect (You know, awake and standing) you stumble around a bit and find an emergency cabin fully stocked with all sorts of wonderful food and drink, and a bunch of .375 H&H rifles with plenty of ammo. Outside, a big brown bear is just standing there. You know that while food and water is no issue, you'll freeze to death if you don't borrow that bear's fur coat for a few weeks. You have no need or intention of eating any part of the bear. Do you kill it or abide by your principles and freeze?

Meanwhile, a few thousand miles away, your identical twin brother is fully clothed, Filson, and leaning against the hood of his 4x4 Jimmy. He has a juicy deer in the sights of his new .300 Win Mag he bought at Cabela's last week. Twelve minutes away is a WalMart SuperCenter with rows of (reputedly) fresh fruit, vegetables, and meats. Hell, there's even a McDonald's built into the front of the store. It would be easier and far less costly to eat a Big Mac. Is it ethical for him to shoot the deer when his survival in no way depends on doing so?

I have some questions for those who only shoot that which they will eat. First, do you to eat only portions other than heart, liver, sweetbreads, etc? If you waste these fully nutritious portions how is that rationalized with your ethic? Second, does that mean you won't shoot vermin like rats, pigeons, coyotes? If you will shoot these but not other animals thought in our society to be not edible how is that consistent with your ethic? Further if you are in another country shouldn't their society's rules of edibilty apply?

I just waded through 3 pages of posts on this subject since I initially took exception to lion hunting early on in this thread. Birds and other small game renew easily and many species can be harvested at the 80% rate and we'll still have a viable population to hunt the following year. Deer,Elk, Moose also fall into the easily renewable category. I may also add that these species are usually consumed as food and nothing really goes to waste. For those who have sampled "Lion Steaks" and I'm in the category all I can say is I'm glad we have regular resturants close by after a "tasting".
I am adverse to condemn any legitimate form of hunting and I recognise that "Big Game" hunting falls into this category but I still personally feel the taking of species at the top of the food chain that don't renew easily is wrong.
We just had our first confirmed sighting of a Jaguar in Southern Arizona after years of speculation and I suspect we'll have a clamor for an open Jaguar season before too long. I say this with tongue in cheek as one who edited many Mountain Lion hunts with dogs which are about as "fair chase" as shooting fish in a barrel. This is NOT hunting it's just plain killing.

Update for Jerrys post:
Our cats and dogs will gladly take care of any of the internal organs we don't eat.
Don't know the regs where you live but the dischage of firearms within the City limits where I live in Arizona would result in some seroius jail time so I don't shoot any vermin.
Jim

Good questions Jerry. You won't get many good answers.

Just what is the 'Top of the Food Chain?'

I think it's pretty easy to opine that humans are generally jackasses in the grand scheme of things. For example, we think it's OK to kill a rat for no purpose, because they are not cuddly or magnificent, but we frown on killing a Panda Bear because it is cute, a jaguar because it is sleek, a gorilla because it reminds us of our high school football coach. In effect, if an animal appeals to our sense then it lives, if it doesn't it dies.

You could argue pretty easily that a rat is a far superior animal than a koala bear or jaguar. After all, the rat has thrived over history whereas the koala and jag are foundering as species. And don't tell me it's because humans have encroached on the habitats of the jaguar.....I think rats have it worse in that regard as well.

Look at the pigeon versus the Bald Eagle - one poops all over 5th Avenue by the thousands, and one is barely able to survive as a species.

Top of the Food Chain? Huh?

Jim if the money paid to hunt the lion goes to keeping the land available to wild animals and the game from being poached out by subsistence hunters then there is good being done. I would also think the legal number of lions allowed to be taken each year was set to a sustainable number.

This wouldn't apply to every legal lion hunt in every situation but it would tend to go that way.

I limit the number of quail I take out of a covey and the number of times I hunt a covey each year so that they will be there next year. I hunt private land. I would imagine all the people making money in the big game hunting business and the land holders would be interested in the lions being a steady source of income over decades.

Best,

Mike

My admittedly limited knowledge of hunting on the Dark Continent is that a good chunk of the money a gringo spends to shoot a lion/elephant/buffalo goes into the coffers of Idi Amin or whatever the name is of the current fat guy in the fez and Man from Aruba shirt.

amarillo mike:
I have no quarrel with your approach which is logical and makes sense:
What you have seen posted here is the Neandrthal(extinct of course) approach to species management. You don't understand "top of the food chain"? Did you take any science courses while attending high school? I could go on but I think anyone posting here with any intelligence gets the point.
Gregsy:
Idi Amin is dead!! You can look this up anywhere and find it's true. He would have probably been a kinfolk of yours since he not only believed in dispatching his enemies but in eating them as well. Guess what? NO waste.
Jim

This is a bad time in your argument to bring up the topic of intelligence.

Is the man who feels the trunk of an elephant and pronounces the elephant to be long and skinny like a snake intelligent?

There are also guys who could argue that shooting a deer is far worse than a lion; the lion at least could come around and kill you. The deer could only leave pellets on your lawn.

Ah Gregsy:
You do raise a good point. Why don't you go feel all over an elephant and report back to us in a couple of months on your findings. I suspect this may be an improvement over what you normally feel over on a regular basis. Best use some skin cream.
Jim

Jim, it was a male lion. A male can sire about a gazillion cubs. That lion may never have had a pride and may have never gotten one had he not been killed. That lion may have had a pride and lost it and never gotten another. If he had a pride at the time of his death he will quickly be replaced. In that species the number of females, the available prey, and disease are the factors controlling next season's lion population.

I say again that they could be treated like a renewable resource. Like the annual wheat harvest if you will.

GregSy I certainly concede that on average a whole bunch of the money goes into somebody's Swiss bank account rather into game habitat.

Best,

Mike

What about all the AlQaeda deer leaping into the path of speeding automobiles and crashing through the windshield. I bet deer kill more humans than lions! I think we should hire PHs carrying 470NE H&H doubles to line the US highways to protect us from this deadly scourge! Would help stimulate the economy and prove Obama is pro Second Amendment.

Best,

Mike

Sorry Mike:
But I must continue to disagree. The bottom line here is someone now has a lion rug for their den and a video that's publicly available to give the antihunters more ammunition to shut down our sport. You can go on about renewable resource etc. till doomsday but the anti-hunters will use videos such as this to raise public awarness to shut down all forms of hunting.
As hunters we are a shrinking minority and this has been the case since golf became the predominant form of male recreation. It's up to all of us as to whether we lose out entirely here.

Jim

So it is settled, the "top of the food chain" argument against hunting this male lion is invalid.

Now you argue against hunting lions because it causes anti-hunter sentiment because of the videos taken and shown on the internet? What about all the dead meat pictures showing up on this BBS? Dead quail, pheasant, chukar, dove, deer, coyotes (LastDollar), and turkey to name but a few. I have pictures of hundreds of dead birds on my PhotoBucket site. Do I need to take those down lest some easily influenced young lady stumble across them and become anti-hunting? Do you believe the butcher counter at the SuperMarket causes anti-meat sentiments and encourages people to become vegetarians? I have two stuffed pheasant, two stuffed trout, an antelope head, and a bear skin in my Den. Do I need to drape those during the annual Girl Scout Cooky drive?

I think these images and experiences help hunting much much more than they hurt it.

Come on Jim.

Best,


Mike

Everyone draws the line somewhere, when it's OK to kill and when it isn't.

I'm sure there are practicing Buddhist's that don't think twice about slapping a mosquito. I know anti-hunters that draw the line just past fish, they have no problem eating a salmon steak while condemning bird hunters.
Here, we have some bird hunters that choose not to kill mammals. Then there are those of us that delineate between types of mammals. I, personally, currently draw the line at large predators, no problem deer and pig hunting but have no desire to shoot a brown bear or elephant or lion. For some reason a black bear is fair game until I find out if I don't like the meat. So's a buffalo. Personally I don't see the attraction to varminting, coyote shooting, live pigeon, tower shoots or South American Dove slaughters.

But that's me. As my friend Brian put much more eloquently than I ever could, it's all sport hunting. And we hang together or hang individually.

We all draw the line somewhere in our own minds.

That is what I was getting at in all this - just didn't say it very well.

Thanks Jim, thanks Rob.

I have been on South American Dove hunts and I found them very sporting and enjoyable and would gladly go again if I win the lottery or if my shooting student Joe Wood would pay my way, both prospects have about the same probability as I don't buy lottery tickets.

Best,

Mike

I too believe that there is no difference in any one form of legal hunting over another, one species hunted over another, the use of trackers or dogs, stands or baits etc. It can’t be explained or justified by the need of the game itself for any reason. The scales favor the hunter over the hunted in nearly all scenarios. You can’t hunt and then try to distance yourself from another hunter or any other form of legal hunting. Hunting is a bloodsport and we are brothers in it.

PM,
well said.

Well done!

That is incredible. What are the odds of such a situation and having the camera record it so clearly.

I was charged by a fifty pound feral pig one day while out quail hunting. When I raised my gun he saw me and diverted. That is about the same thing as the lion bit isn't it?

Hey, Danger is my middle name.

Best,

Mike

Well Mike:
You and everyone else here are entitled to their opinion. I don't think the sight of small game,which most people will assume will be consumed, brings forth the emotional resposne of that "Lion Hunt" video where everyone knows that isn't the case.
That's the difference. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here.
I spent a couple of hours shopping at Cabalas in Glendale yesterday which,as I'm sure you know, has mounted big game species everywhere. I didn't hear any negative responses from the large crowds in the store but these people probably aren't representative of a true cross section of Americans either.
Jim

How about the "emotional response" of villagers living off a dollar a day and living in grass huts and having to watch a noble lion killing their goats? Do they have any say in this?

I'd be willing to bet the majority of people at Cabela's don't even stop to think about how those mounts got there. Many probably think they are fake, or were made out of animals which somehow died in a non-gun way.

I assume, Greg, you have got to be kidding us?

No, I'm not.

The average Cabela's visitor who hunts will assume they were shot. But the average Cabela's visitor who doesn't - that includes most of the wives, kids, and plenty of men - will look at the scrubbed up, non-smelly, non-breathing warthog and not really make the connection that at one time it was in someone's gunsights. Even if they know somewhere in the back of their mind it was shot they don't really make the connection. Or maybe they assume the warthog probably did something to deserve getting shot. People are experts at avoiding what they don't want to know.

For those critical of trophy hunting, particularly for cats, let me provide you my own most recent experience. I am hardly an expert on African hunting, but I am at least informed on what I personally saw and learned.

I spent two weeks in Namibia during August. Great plains game hunting, and I took a nice leopard on the second to last evening. We ate game every evening, but obviously did not consume all the game we took during the two weeks. Namibia is a land of huge cattle stations. The game animal "belongs" to the ranch owner. Those of you who have hunted in Europe will recognize the formula.

When I shot my oryx, for instance, I retained the cape and the skull. The back straps went on the grill two nights later and the bulk of the animal went to feed the worker families on the station. The tropy fee for the bull was shared between the owner and the government. Other animals we took were sold in the same way they are sold to markets in Germany. In other words, on Andre's 40k acre, low-fenced property, he is "insentivized" to protect his plains game herds - herds which just twenty years ago were largely culled to make way for cattle.

The ranches also have heavy populations of leopards. This is a rather recent result of sport hunting. Again, twenty years ago, a leopard-killed calf was laced with poison. The leopard was viewed as purely a problem animal. The poisoning killed leopards but also, obviously affected honney badger, vulture, jackel, and caracal populations.

Today, the cats are a major cash resource. The trophy fee is again split between the government and the station owner. It is enough to underwrite the loss of several calves. As a result, leopard populations are exploding across Namibia.

I am more proud of that leopard than any other game animal I have taken. And not because he is exotic, but because we worked very hard for him, spending hour upon hour during bitterly cold nights sitting over baits. And though I am 56 this year and not quite the airborne ranger I once was, I am also hardly a overweight rich guy having a cat delivered on a platter.

The ranch owners benefited, the PH benefited, and most importantly the game animals of Namibia are benefiting from sport and trophy hunting. I in no way would ask Greg or Jim to change their personal opinions or hunting choices - merely have an informed and open-minded opinion about the choices others of us make.

'DEAD ON'.....NO DEBATE...!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-hunting. I don't find a lot of distinction between killing a deer or a lion or a rat. Nor do I feel eating something makes it OK to kill it, unless you are depending on that meat to survive.

Sure, the occasional normal guy makes it to Africa but for the most part it's rich guys. And I don't condemn that - but I don't think they're heroes, either.

My interest in this thread is philosophical....Don't take what I 'think' to mean it particularly reflects what I 'do'.

One of my very ignorant employees said of the Obama assualt weapons bill that will be passed soon, " I don't care if they take everybody's AR15, no one needs a clip that holds more than 4 shots". " My bolt action .300 Win Mag only holds 3 shots".
As long as they don't take my gun, I don't care if they take yours".
Don't give any anti anything an inch. They will never quit.

I love the way Joe Taylor put it all into the perspective of market economics. Free supply and demand works to keep everyone happy and actually works at giving value to what has to be protected. The opposite of massive regulatory bans and command style economy to dictate what crops should be harvested or not distorts everything into a horrible wasteland.

Look at what gardeners do. Their job is to turn what is otherwise just weeds into valued growth. How do we make the difference between live plants and bad weeds? You'd think an efficiency commanding horticulturist would go around whacking everything in sight? well no, it is only after the skillful but merciless hacking at the prickly thorn bush that we get beautiful roses.

Imagine that florists were banned on the account that what they do is the horrifying sexual mutilation of the mild mannered (and so-called harmless, never mind allergies) plants, and we'd have a ban on roses, tulips, carnations... - a bouquet is the sort of kinky trophy to make the prudes carve out their eyes - and so, now, we'd have a destroyed gardening industry. No value in the flowers, no value in the thorn bush, and we'd be left with mass weed poisoning programs and acres of waste land and no free markets to lift the world out of the misery of equality. After all, if I can't have my trophy tulips why should a jealous have an impaled bug hanging in his den? Me, honestly, as long as we are erring on the side of freedom, I couldn't care less what anyone does with their time and money. I am truly happy for everyone.

On that note...

I loved Gregsy's Rocky Mountain dreams of waking up erect at the thoughts of a big furry bear and ready to shoot the big gun. Hilarious stuff. Double X rated stuff.

Just funny. Thanks for the grin.

Joe:
I'm not personally finding fault with you just with a video which IMO gives antis additional information to argue for more bans on hunting. I suspect the most common form of Mountain Lion here,running with dogs then shooting while treed, had a lot to do with the banning of Lion hunting here.
My dislike in regards to shooting the big cats and,to a degree,trophy hunting in general, is a personal thing and I am NOT trying to impose my beliefs upon others. I'll leave that to fringe groups like PETA.
Jim

For the Viet Nam combat vets on this forum...Did you eat any of the VC you killed? (Airborne need not answer-HOOAH!)..Amazing the paths these threads take...

I once had a brief chat with a lady who condemned hunting as nothing but 'killing all those poor animals. This was at some sort of function where she had both chicken and beef piled on her plate. I asked her what about that chicken and cow you're eating. She had no trouble replying that 'Oh, those animals were raised to be killed.' Need I say more?

Now this one disturbs me greatly, all those PH's and the lion rips one guy's shoulder open on the charge, and gets up and runs away. Why was the hunter stopped, early on, when he had a clear head shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7yUZsWUmX0&feature=related

binko

I am afraid we are in a situation here where if you have to explain it. They will not understand anyway.

Hunting is hunting, a lion, wood duck, pheasant, coyote or crows are all beautiful in someones eyes though not all are eaten.

I will never hunt big game or fly to some exotic place to fly fish but I do not begrudge those who do.

As a retired wildlife biologist, I'm with RPr in this sentiment. Our collective capitulation as sportsmen and even game managers, of just 'going along to get along' has gotten us virtually nowhere with today's 'modern man'.

Out here in Montana, for the first time, we have an international wildlife organization called Big Animal, Inc. I believe, petitioning our Fish & Game folks to abandon all lion hunting in our state. They claim that pursuing them as sport actually makes them "fiercer" and "a greater liability to the general public", according to the NPR news blurb I heard a few weeks ago. Hopefully our MDFWP will be wise enough to resist this challenge.

Never mind that we have one of the healthier, hunted mountain lion populations in the Intermountain west without the levels of human conflict being experienced in those states that do ban the hunting of them, e. g. Kalifornia. Never mind that a regional wolf biologist, tells some folks, off-the-record of course, that they should shoot in the direction of a threatening gray wolf (while taking care to not hit it) as it will actually begin to put some fear in them of we humans.

Such nonsense boggles my mind to where these cats are almost welcome to a few human meals snatched from say, a PETA rally, if we as a race continue to 'dumb-down'as we are doing. Hell, I'll even help em'! Remember that just as long as people are being fed this crap by today's media, we really can't hold out for much hope in the way of sound wildlife management.

Sorry for the rant,

Rob

Thanks Robert, very interesting and useful information and your background gives it weight.

By the way, I saw a lion on my birdlease this year - in the Texas Panhandle between the towns of Quail and Hedley on the Salt Fork of the Red River.

Best,

Mike

Rob:
I agree with your sentiments and understand the need to keep the Mountain Lion population under control. However; I ran a video production company* for many years and did a lot of video editing and duplication for fellow hunters since,as a hunter myself I understood what they wanted done. Lots of footage from Africa and some really great Elk,sheep and deer footage from my own State of Arizona.
Mountain Lion hunting in Arizona typically requires locating spoor and then releasing a pack of dogs to trail the lion. The end result is usually a treed Mountain Lion which the hunter dispaches at close range often with a pistol. The dogs of course are all over the cat as soon as it hits the ground. The first time I handed this type of footage to one of our female editors resulted in her bursting into tears and refusing to finish the project. Subsequently I had to edit such footage myself as no one else would do it.
I think you can imagine the impact of someone shooting an apparentely defenseless animal that been treed by dogs has on the general public. The environmental activitists and organizations like PETA would have a field day using this footage for propaganda purposes. I wouldn't be surprised if PETA has someone reading this thread as I type it trying to figure out how to put this material to their own use.
*I was also aware according to some of the hunter clients that my competition wouldn't even touch their material placing it in the same category as pornography.
Jim

I don't worry or care much about the PETA types. The vast majority are a bunch of pious hippocrites who wear leather shoes and belts and would think nothing of killing (or paying an exterminator to kill) rats, flies, or cockroaches in their apartments. Their idea of sentient life extends mostly to that which is warm and fuzzy with big brown eyes. Interestingly, most of them are very pro-abortion... even the partial birth-suck the kids brain out while he's trying to come out type. Like I said, petty hippocrites. I no longer argue with them even though they are so easy to expose. I simply tell them that for every animal they don't eat... I will eat three.

My work takes me from rural kitchens to the homes of political leaders in Ottawa, often in social settings, and my approach to friends and acquaintances who despise hunting is to own-up as a killer. Words have meaning. I use that word. But how can you? Well, hunting is a part of my life as inseparable as shoes. I trap wild animals, too. Audiences and interlocutors are forced to come to grips with it. You shoot deer, with those big eyes? I've shot deer but most of my hunting now is birds. I enjoy it more; it takes more skill. My integrity doesn't permit the meat-for-food and leather-for-shoes apologia or silly euphemisms like "harvesting" for killing, doing good by killing them. Honesty is respected. The results are satisfactory.

The PETA types are never the ones you have to worry about. They're on the fringes of society anyway. The ones you have to worry about are the soccer moms and school teachers and all those millions of people living like rats in condos and apartments in big cities. They're the ones who fail to see the need for hunting of guns and they get all of their thinking done for them by Oprah.

You can’t appease Peta or non hunters by throwing hunters who use dogs or hunt predators under the bus. Would your employees be any less appalled at watching someone wring the neck of a crippled bird or the coup de gras of a wounded but still aware game animal? Hunting is hard wired in our DNA. Non hunters haven’t risen above the need to hunt, they have completely lost touch with it. You will never convince them of all the good hunters and hunting monies do for game animals and the environment in general. We were originally hunters and gatherers, they must have gotten all the gatherer genes.

King,
I couldn't agree more. My wife and I attended a wild game dinner recently, a fund raiser for our local MPP, who also happens to be my good friend. Someone at our fairly large table used the term "harvest". I politely rejected that term and said that hunting is an ancient and honourable sport, of which we should be proud. I went on to say that no hunter should be ashamed to say that he "killed" an animal or fish, for that is what he does. I was roundly applauded by those at our table and several others within hearing. I know for a certainty that more than a few of those applauding are non hunters.

I think some of you are missing my point here. I don't personally have any interest in hunting the big cats but that's a personal preference. I am NOT in anyway stating anyone on this forum shouldn't do so. My point is don't graphically document it as was done in the post that started this thread, make it publicly available and give ammunition to the antis. NO one,least of all me, is trying to throw hunters to the dogs*
* Curious choice of words BTW since we were using Lion hunting with dogs as an example.

GregSY:
Your comments below are spot on and this state of ignorance is IMO very prevelant for urban residents. I think they actually believe we have chicken breast farms underground where the meat is grown in much the same way as mushrooms.

"The PETA types are never the ones you have to worry about. They're on the fringes of society anyway. The ones you have to worry about are the soccer moms and school teachers and all those millions of people living like rats in condos and apartments in big cities. They're the ones who fail to see the need for hunting of guns and they get all of their thinking done for them by Oprah"

Jim

I said:
You can't appease Peta or non hunters by throwing hunters who use dogs or hunt predators under the bus.
Excuse me if I misunderstood the intent of your posts.

Should've fed the lion that old blond that wounded him.

Bad business, no tip for the PHs.

Best,

Mike

She didn't look that old, just uuuuuggggly!

binko

I don't know about you young guys but you sure make me laugh!

Nothing screams like a carrot when it is ripped out of the ground, by having its head pulled, until it has its' roots are ripped from its' body. Vegans are the worst people to my way of thought. A Lion, bird or fish can get away. Ever see a carrot on the run? They do not stand a chance. Eat mor meat.

I think the lion is magnificent in his charge, a great piece of film. I have no desire to hunt one but have nothing childish to say of those that do. Frankly if these animals are not hunted for money the local ranchers would probably wipe them out as pests. As regal as the male lion is, he is still a commodity in Africa.

On the other hand one could say that it was a good death. He was strong to the end and will not suffer the agony of being eaten alive by hyenas in old age.

"On the other hand one could say that it was a good death"

On the other hand, one could say that the assessment of a death is the sole property of the one doing the dying.

I think the real question here is;
Full on body mount or rug?

The last number I heard for a successful lion hunting trip was about $50K including travel, tips, PHs, motels, gun bearers, meals. Why wouldn't you spend another $6K for the full body mount?

Best,

Mike

Ya think!!!!

Only if you get the chance to think about it first!

binko

Hi all

I tried to follow this thread, but when you're not involved right from the start it becomes very lengthy, and very hard to read all posts.

As a professional hunter I have full understanding for those who do not like hunting something like the big cats. However, that male lion has been past his prime, and especially on a continent like Africa wild animals need to pay its way, or face extinction. This is a seriously unfortunate situation, but the death of that lion has ensured the protection of at least 5 others with the trophy fees etc paid for that hunt. And this is a fact that nobody should ever loose sight of.

To be involved in a hunt like that, and come out of it alive to tell the story, is something that will stay with all the PH's involved, as well as the client, for the rest of their lives. I've read and heard stories like this, but somehow I have been fortunate enough, or maybe unfortunate, not to have been involved in such an encounter. But all (African) PH's live for the day to face one of the Dangerous 6 (Big 5 + hippo) charging, wounded or not. When it happens to me I'll tell you all if it is worth the wait and the thrill ;-)

Cobus

Excellent job by Johan Calitz, the other PH's and trackers in a very tense situation that can very easily and rapidly wind out of control..

Some good reality based posts by Joe Taylor, Brian and SAHunter.

If one is being eaten alive by hyenas, the prerogative is not with the eaten.

Being that you are a PH, what is your take on this mess?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7yUZsWUmX0&feature=related

I posted this earlier but you may have missed it with all the threads...I guess I should have started a new thread with it?

binko

Hi Binko

I know this clip all too well. This was actually one of those times that I was rooting for the big cat as well. Under normal circumstances, in open country, my good wishes would be with the hunter.
This was, as far as I'm concerned, an unethical hunt. Fences are clearly visible in the background, suggesting that the hunt took place in a very small fenced in area, which, to my mind, is highly unethical.
What amazed me the most was the fact that Lammie Potgieter from Hunters Unlimited, and Bob Luna from Colorado Hunting Expeditions actually advertised their names on this video clip. If I was a prospective client I will NEVER deal with one of these two outfits .... EVER!
My lion hunts are done on 5,000ha (±12,500 acres). This hunt was clearly (to me) one of those canned hunts that has resulted in a global outcry against the hunting of captive bred lions. I do not necessarily have a problem with hunting captive bred lions. What most people do not understand about these lions bred in captivity is that they will charge without provocation, which makes them extremely dangerous to hunt. The other fact about this is that the hunting of captive bred lions takes the pressure of wild populations.
I can tell you stories about so-called "wild" lion hunts allover Southern Africa, where those lions were actually captive bred and released into a very large hunting concession (62,000+ acres) a day or two before the hunt. The lion received a microchip in the shoulder for tracking before released.
I'd rather do my hunting the ethical way, and not get involved in situations like this.

I have to say, judging the client's squealing when that lion jumped on him, that I think his underwear was fairly messed up

Cobus

Cobus,

Thanks for the reply and I do appreciate your resolve. I thought that this hunt was a slap in the face to upstanding PH's everywhere, and a disgrace to big game hunting in general. I for one am glad you are here on this board to explain the ins and outs of your sport, and there to represent the world wide sport of hunting.

binko

Binko

I cannot agree with you more. It is hunts like these that gives the hunting industry in general a bad name. PH's like these are known as "Kamikazes". It was not only unethical to shoot that lion in a small fenced in area, but also extremely irresponsible. Client safety is #1, and in that small area it was always inevitable that the lion would charge if wounded, or just charge without being wounded, placing the client in grave danger.... unnecessarily.

Cobus