Is anyone familiar with this maker or a shotgun like this ? Proofmarks are Belgian and maker is French.

So if the opening lever is on top, what does the lever on the bottom do?

Ah, the froggies just can't make a double without a few radical features. Chopperlump

SDH Push the bottom lever forward to remove the barrels.

A new one on me. The engraver might have been related to the guy who did early Parkers, from the looks of the birds. I know porn when I see it, and I know lousy engraving the same way.
Best,
Ted

The exhaust pipes are a nice touch.

Daryl, what makes you think the maker is French if the proofs are Belgian? Is there a French address on the gun somewhere? It's certainly French-looking in its design, but it would be a bit odd to make a gun in France and proof it in Belgium--unless perhaps made for a gun shop in that country.

I think that is the bottle opener, but I don't see the Cork Screw

A neat, but weird old Gun.

Would not F. Celerier be the holder of the patent(design) and not the maker?
I would suggest that the gun is Belgian made on F. Celerier's patent.

Best,
John

John, you could be right. On the converse, it seems that many French gunmaker/sellers had some of their guns made in Belgium. The Belgian proofs say this. But your answer may be correct if France did not require proofs when this gun was made. There are no French proofs on this gun. It does look French, doesn't it ?

YES!

This is pure Belgian.

Francois Celerier of Wandre, a suburb of Liege was active from 1872 to 1877. He held 5 patents for single and double guns. MAL had 2 of his guns on display at one point.

There is some indication that he took over the business of Lambert Ghaye, also of Liege, who was active 1855 to 1872.
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20g/a%20ghaye%20gb.htm

Apparently neither of them ever registered a trade mark.

Pete

So the Belgians could do wierd too?

Although there was no strict requirement for proof in France for quite some time, I think it's pretty unusual to find a French gun without them--unlike, say, German guns prior to the proof laws of the 1890's.

Pete and Larry, I think you are right. I assumed the gun was French because of the "look". Also, found this in a book listing French gunmakers, but also notice this book also includes Belgian makers from time to time. Here's what they say. Maybe Larry can translate. Listing for F Celerier---

Armurier vers 1867 . Vu sur un fusil double a percussion centrale, ouverture par avance du canon rappelant le systeme Ghaye, longue cle levier sur la culasse fixe.

Pete, what is MAL ? Later----------Is it the Museum of Arms in Liege ?

"Gunsmith since 1867. Vision of a double gun with central percussion, opening by pushing barrels forward, reminding of Ghaye system, long lever over the immobile action".

"Mal" means sick, I believe.
Edit: Never mind!

Silver, thanks. The book must have been refering to another action as the barrels are stationary and the action moves on this one.

Daryl,

Yes, I saw that in the French Who's Who as well. They are dating a gun to 1867, his name was seen on a percussion rifle by Ghaye. That is where I got the reference to Ghaye.

I do not know for sure about M.A.L. as the source. The Belgian Who's Who, never explains. However, they list 2 reference numbers, so I assumed it was a museum. I searched the online catalog at http://www.museedarmes.be/home.htm (Liege Museum of Fire Arms)but drew a blank. Does not mean it is not in their collection.... The other major museum in Liege www.lesmuseesenwallonie.be/ (Museum of Wallon Life) does not have a working website at the moment.

Pete

Couple minor corrections to the French translation: "vers 1867" would be around or about 1867 rather than since. I've always struggled with translating "cle", which literally means key in French but refers to the opening mechanism on a Darne-type shotgun. Don't know whether Ted has settled on anything better than "key" where Darnes are concerned.

I came to my conclusion due to the Brevete under his name.
This means patent. The same is used on other actions. As an example on Lindner guns with the A&D with Brevete under on the face of the action.
Best,
John

It does indeed mean patent . . . or, in this specific case, patented. And it could well attach to Celerier as the individual with the patent--although the citation on the barrel is insufficient to determine that for sure.

Pete and Daryl, M.A.L. in the Belgium gunmakers language have a multiple meaning. Daryl, I know you have the book" le qui est qui dans l'armurerie Liégeoise" so look at P 148 just above the pictured pistol you can read that M.A.L. is about a gun system from Max Knoll. And in the same book P 163 you can read that M.A.L. is Manufacture d'Armes Lepage. Again the same book P 163 above you can read that it concerne about a double gun "System M.L.A.F. There are more example in the same book but that not concerne the gun you mention.
Marc.

Marc, thank you. I see what you mean.

Marc, I don't have the book, but since it's discussing Belgian guns, I'm guessing there's a pretty good chance that M.L.A.F. could stand for Manufacture Liegeoise d'Armes a Feu.

Yes it is also possible as the mention examples above.

Marc,

Yes, I do find it confusing as well. Sometimes they use a reference number as on page 148. Thanks for going through the book and pointing this out.

I do think the Belgian Who's Who is better than the French. While the French Who's Who lists 22,000 names, it is a compliation of lists. The Belgian book represents original research.

Pete

Oh man that is SO cool! Love the cocking indicators.