Do we need choke? MM says no, it's obsolete. Any choke at all at the distance that we shoot upland birds is too much.
What do you say?
Pete

I say MM has not shot doves at 50 yards in the desert with a smallbore.

The cross-over point between a blooming full choke and a withering cylinder choke is around 25 yards. If you shoot birds beyond 25 yards, you will benefit from some choke. A thirty five yard full choke pattern will, for practical purposes, be identical in size and shot distribution to a twenty yard cylinder pattern. So, you can have a larger effective diameter by choosing open choke, or the same pattern at longer range by choosing tighter choke. A open choke will retain an ever decreasing effective diameter to long yardages, so you would need to be "rifle" shot to use it. Tight choke will require the same fine marksmanship at short range, but is likely to be destructive of meat. You will have to decide on the trade-offs depending on your target and your range.

I need Choke more than I need MM.

mm uses those italian made b&p loads (aka gucci-mo) containing high antimony premium nickel plated shot that requires little or no choke. for those of us using us made "wranger" loads choke is still needed.

MM needs to come up with something to write about for every issue of SSM. To avoid repeating himself too often he has to search around in his head for some new bs. Over the years he has been advocating less and less choke so now he has reached all the way to none. His next logical step is the rifled spreader choke and I look forward to his rediscovery of that. Imagine getting paid for writing nonsense.
Nial

No choke....Thats silly.

[/quote]

as i recall digweed was braking clays at 80 yards with 1/4 choke using gamebore
'pure gold' (very "savile row") so if one is very good no choke is necessary.

Darn . . . I shoot Pure Golds on occasion. I thought that I was more Sears Roebuck.

It's harder to tighten a choke via load selection than it is to open it. That being said, cylinder can be pretty deadly at TYPICAL upland ranges. And from what Roster has found in his CONSEP workshops, most hunters would probably be better off with cylinder, and limiting their shots to 30 yards max. But for the ATYPICAL upland opportunities, and for those who can hit reliably beyond 30 yards, choke comes in quite handy.

Choke is a performance, not a constriction. We do need choke, but we may not need as much constriction as in the days before shotcups.

I ran some 12 ga 1 1/16 oz B&Ps through a cyl M-21 barrel on paper. They gave something between IC and LM patterns. Not shabby. This helped me understand why I did reasonably well for many years using cyl and good factory traploads.

Payload matters. Alot. What one can do with a good B&P 1.25 oz load through that 12 with .000 is one thing. Trying to find a use for a 1/2 oz .410, or 3/4 oz 28, through .000 is another. How useless? Well, at 20 yds you will not reliably break a centered clay with the .410 and #9s. Nor will you reliably tag a centered grouse or WC with the 28 and US #8s. Sometimes you will, sometimes you won't.

Then, I haven't tried B&Ps through my .000 28.

IIRC, MM was discussing subgauge light loads and 50 yd targets. I know you can groove a repetitive long target and hit with a tiny effective pattern. But I don't understand the point of such an exercise, as you would never deliberately do this in competition. Nor would one possessing ethics do so in the field.

Sam

Choke is good, and Sam has nailed it. The very best shooters who seldom shoot a target w/o centering it can do remarkable things w/ no choke at all thanks to the hot core of any pattern. Choke can effectively increase effective pattern as range grows, but this is heavily dependent upon matching load and choke.

The plastic shot cup as changed the game for sure - tighter patterns from barrels w/ no constriction with quality loads - but the value of choke is still there at the longer ranges. Whether one should be shooting game that far is another matter altogether.

Pete,

Are you referencing the article MM wrote several years ago for SSM, or a later article that I am not aware of? He used to post from time to time on this forum, and after he wrote the article in SSM several years ago stating that "choke is obsolete" I took that statement and article to task here and there were MANY on here who defended his statement. It is probably too far back in history to find with a search, but I remember it well.

Anyone who has the arrogance to state in print that, because of today's high quality loads, choke is obsolete is a narrow minded individual most likely just trying to stir the pot and get attention. Ask the top Master class sporting competitors, or the turkey hunters, or the pass shooting dove man, or the duck man who is not setting the ducks down in his decoys, or the FITASC competitor, ad nauseum, if choke is obsolete. And when they ask you if you are crazy, be SURE to tell them they must be wrong because Michael McIntosh said so, if you want a big laugh.

The most preposterous statement I ever remember reading in SSM.

I'm going to go back now and try to find that article.

Stan

MM must be getting delirious from breathing the rarified air in that ivory tower he lives in.

Choke is not obsolete, just over valued!

Stan,

I refer to the article in the September/October issue of "Shooting Sportsman" titled "More Things WE Can Do Without".
I believe I read the same thing in a book by MM about 7 or 8 years ago.

Pete

Modern loads do seem to perform better than those of the Victorians, though plastic cup wads do not necessarily out-pattern felt wads, according to some recent research. It underlines the usefulness of patterning your gun with loads you propose to use. However, experience quickly tells me the range at which a given gun and load is performing and when it is time to haul in the range at which shots are taken or push it out.

Personally, I shoot a lot of 'high' game birds with very little choke using 30g of No.6 shot. However, when shooting bigger, tougher birds like geese, it helps to tighten the choke, up the payload and go down a few shot sizes.

I think most people use more choke than they need and heavier loads than they need when shooting game.

Certainly small bore guns with light payloads need tight choking if a killing pattern is to be delivered at range. One just needs to understand what is going on and be pragmatic rather than dogmatic.

My SXS 16ga. has two chokes....light and tight...(-: IC/Full, Few escape its wrath...Wild Kansas pheasants require good solid hits, with one down and one fleeing fast choke is a wonderfull thing! IC/F is even good for sporting clays too. I have found that proper choke matched to the range of the target is a must for best resalts! Example...Are clubs sporting clays corse has a fair mix of presintations. If I shoot IC/M for all stations my score will be about the same as if shot them all with M/F chokes give or take a couple targets. If I taylor the choke to the presintation my scores go up noticably. Proper choke is very important. Paterns can also be altered by load type. While testing a Fox SXS 16 one load realy filled the circle at 40 yards??? I tor down this load and found a solid wad cup with no verticle slits. This load is a factory Noble sport hunting 16ga load. Don't use this load for early grouse! Thanks all Kenny Graft SXS ohio....(-:

i noticed that english manufacturers seem to offer "1350+fps" 'super, tall, extreme,....' loads even in 65mm case. typical englishman must be able to endure recoil energy like a sandbag.

Jager, you have to remember that when it comes to velocity, Brits and Americans are--once more--"two peoples divided by a common language". 1350 fps would be velocity at the muzzle. What we commonly call "muzzle velocity" in the States is actually the velocity 3 feet from the muzzle--and there's a significant difference between the two. Example: A 1 1/8 oz load of 6's, with a listed American MV of 1250 fps, has a TRUE MV of 1348 fps--just about what you gave for those Brit loads. And for your typical American pheasant hunter, that particular load would definitely be on the light side of what most shoot.

A few years ago I bought an old (1890 made) Husqvarna hammer double with 16-gauge, 80 cm barrels, one full choke, one cylinder -- a fairly common combination for one-gun hunters that used that one gun for grouse, rabbits, foxes, roedeer, and moose (latter with round ball loads in cylinder bore barrel -- quite capable on moose at 50 meters or less -- common distances in dense, dark forests in late 1800s). Someone also lengthened forcing cones to about 10-15 cm.

In recent decades I have used almost exclusively light weight, long barreled (75 cm), tight choked, 16-bore doubles with 24 to 30 gram of hard lead alloy or bismuth-tin shot in one-peice plastic wads, for everything from quail to geese. Deadly guns for how I hunt -- no sky-busting, try to keep shots under 45 yards for ducks, geese and pheasants, under 40 yards for smaller birds.

I quickly found that cylinder bore barrel was quite useful at 16-yard trap with 24-28 grams #7 or #7,5 shot. In duck season that cylinder bore was deadly on decoying ducks with 28 grams #5 Bi-Sn shot at about 1250 fps.

I suspect that 80 cm barrel allows for significantly less powder-gass disturbance of shot and wad column as it exits muzzle, even compared to 75 cm barrels.

More importantly, I now have a gun with two chokes that cover nearly all my shotgun shooting. Previously I used scatter loads when I needed more open patterns, or, when possible, just waited out bird till pattern opened.

SO, is full choke or no choke best?? I want BOTH!! Overall, each choke drops plenty of birds. Prefer this 120 year-old hammer double for sporting clays -- only decision is which barrel to shoot first.

Niklas

ah... der aint nuttin lik ah polychoke on ah 16 bore pump gon. hello der, sweet versatility!

The article is in the latest Shooting Sportsman magazine. I used to like MM writings years ago, until he decided to become a professional shooting analyst. Now I just roll my eyes and laugh at some of the fluff he talks about. No need for choke and no need for single selective triggers on double guns? This is the opinion of a man who has a very limited shooting experience. I pretty much tune MM out these days; so should SSM.
JR

I read that. But, he stated the same thing in a article for SSM years ago. I looked through all my back issues last night and couldn't find it. Yet. If I do I'll post the issue date.

The sad thing about it is that MM is such a talented writer. I really enjoy reading him, I just take all the content with a grain of salt. As long as a writer is relating data from valid research I can keep an open mind, but when he/she starts pontificating on subjective stuff that is basically opinion I get very skeptical. That's the case with most of the stuff he writes now, IMO.

I think his greatest contribution to the written word is his Fox book. I just wish we could talk Researcher into writing one, hint, hint .

Stan

I wouldn't go so far as to say "no need for SST's" (don't have the latest issue yet), but other than for cold weather hunting when heavy gloves can be a problem with DT's, I think most would agree that DT's are both more reliable and allow more rapid selection of barrel.

I would like to get something cleared up once and for all about single selective triggers. They are not intended to be fast, they are intended to be convenient. An SST is not meant to be used quickly when a bird is in the air, it is meant to be used as a choice WELL BEFORE you mount the gun and are about to take a shot.

Most times, you know about what kinds of shots you will be taking, and you set your SST accordingly. You don't wait until the bird flushes or approaches and then start thinking which way to punch the selector. You set it up ahead of time and go with it.

Sure, double triggers are much faster for instant choke selection and I see no argument with that. But they take up a lot of room in the trigger guard and are VERY difficult to use on cold days with heavy gloves, and that's where a single trigger shines. If it is selectable, so much the better.

Sometimes, on incoming targets such as geese or ducks, you know you are going to need to fire the tighter-choked barrel first on most shots, and you set your selector accordingly. I have NEVER tried to punch a selector button while shouldering a gun, and don't ever intend to.

Where SSTs really show out is on a Sporting Clays course, where you get to view the presentation first, select which barrel/choke you desire to fire first, and quit thinking about it. Saves changing choke tubes a whole lot of times. With double triggers, I can guarantee you will pull either the front or rear trigger in the wrong sequence on a five pair station. Might not matter to a casual shooter, but in competition, it matters a lot.
JR

I have found that most folks who shoot double triggers a lot, and have for most of their life, including myself, still require some concerted practice to be able to shoot the left barrel first, then move to the front trigger with the same speed and "second nature" that we do when firing the right barrel first, then moving to the back trigger.

As much as we like having the instant option to choose barrels (chokes) by choosing a trigger, I would bet money that most of the shooters who champion the double trigger set-up cannot go from rear trigger to front with the finesse of front to rear, just from lack of practice. True pairs on a sporting clay range will give us that practice we need.

Having used double triggers for over 50 years of shotgunning, long ago I found front to back sequence really fast, normally way faster than I could generally recover from recoil (save for really light loads or wounded rising birds). Back to front is usually fast enough that it does not slow me down (recoil does, again, save for really light loads).

Sole SST I ever used for hunting was Browning Citori with selector combined with safety. After a few hunts with that gun, I found myself shifting selector in anticipation of shots on waterfowl, just like I shift between front and back triggers. After a while, I even found myself doing same with selector on flushes, even on birds not pointed by dog(s).

As other posters note, SSTs really shine when wearing heavy gloves. Next best are larger trigger guards and often even wider trigger spacing on scandinavian doubles -- thanks to common usage with gloves. Southern European doubles often seem to be made for folks with slender, damsel-like fingers.

Niklas

Well said, John. I agree with you, even if I do not do so in practice. I compete in S x S events with a non-selectable BSS, choked mod. and full. When I compete in the main events and prelims it is with a fixed choke non-selectable MX-8 choked .020" and .020". I will, more than likely, have the chokes on the BSS opened to the same mod/mod set-up, even though the mod/full worked pretty well at the U.S. Open. I have found a great freedom in approaching competition knowing I have enough choke for any presentation out there, and not being bothered with changing chokes all the time. The concern that my patterns would be too tight for rabbits and close-in crossers just has not materialized into a loss of birds in reality.

But, for most people, the SST set-up, for the exact reasons you stated, is tops.

If you're used to DT's, there's absolutely no issue going from front to back. The easy way to learn is, shoot skeet. Since the advantage on skeet doubles is tight choke first/open second, you simply go back to front. Do it enough times and it becomes automatic. In sporting clays, on a particular station, you get the same presentation each time. Which means you always use the chokes in the same order. Look at the targets, determine whether you need to go tight barrel first, and follow the same sequence every time. It's about as difficult as walking and chewing bubblegum simultaneously.

Trigger spacing is also very different from one DT gun to the next. Admittedly, some are impossible to use in cold weather if you're wearing much of a glove. Others will accommodate a relatively heavy glove. Or, you can solve the problem by having a ST gun for cold weather hunting. I have some of each. And I don't have any problem, when shooting either skeet or sporting clays, remembering either to go back to front, or to switch the selector on the ST gun.

Have shot DTs for almost 50 yrs. and am old fashion when it Comes to SxSs, in fact have 2 O/Us with DT, an old Browning and a Marlin. Very seldon wear gloves when hunting, but if I do wear wool mitt/glove type where the mitten top flips over and I have a half bare trigger finger. I hunt in Dec. and Jan. and am lucky very seldom have trouble with cold hands, now feet are a different story.

Sam,
I may have inadvertently discovered another method of tightening the little .410 pattern, regardless of choke or cylinder. Years ago, I bought that little LeFever Nitro Special .410 with all the engraving and new wood. The barrels are pitted and the chambers had been lengthend by a hack with a common 45 degree lead chucking reamer. I took careful measurements and had a chamber/forcing cone reamer made from a "taper pin reamer" (1/4" per foot taper). It fixed that gun's chamber problems. I've always shot that gun well and taken quite a bit of game with it, sometimes at pretty long distances for the IC/MOD choking.

Recently, I used that reamer on another gun to go out to 3" chambers. (It produces 3" forcing cones if you haven't calculated it by now.) I noted that the right barrel had been openned to cylinder. When I started shooting it on the pattern board, my friend that shoots .410 exclusively, was there. He was so impressed with the pattern desity using the same factory loads he uses in his guns (mostly his CSM 21, but also P-guns and M42's) that he begged me to open up his CSM 21 chambers on both sets of barrels.

I think the effect of a gradual forcing cone reduces the damage to the shot. Since the 3" .410 has more percentage of shot in contact with the bore than any other bore size, the effect is magnified.

These taper pin reamers are available from many industrial supply sources on the net for not much money. Finding a cutter grinding service was easy for me, since I know people in that biz. But, any area with industrial machining will have a cutter grinder biz base of some kind. The chamber body diameter (which is slightly tapered), is simply "spun" (ground by spinning the cutter between centers on the countersinks in either end), without any "relief" since all you are doing is cuting the forcing cone.

Try it on one of your .410's, I think you'll like it.

Chuck,

If I understand it, sounds like chamber is now 3" with a 3" forcing cone beyond. I don't doubt this reduces shot damage, particularly with the 3" shells that invariably (?) employ 1/2oz shotcups. I have to wonder if you have created, in effect, a proximal choke section with extremely long parallel section? Did you take bore diam measurements at beginning and end of forcing cone section? Just curious.

Wish I could bring myself to play around with a M-42, but don't have the cajones. If I find a beater M-37A I might just play with it.

3" .410 loads are odd ducks - through my barrels they behave as though there are two distinct populations of pellets. The "bad" population peels off early in flight. But the "good" population carries about as well as a good load from a 12. Let's say you have a full barrel. Using RP 3" #6 shells as an example, at just 20 yds you may see a pattern percentage of 65-70%. That's awful for a full choke, right? Moreover, it will have an impossibly small, hot core and few pellets in the outer circle. But move the paper to 40 yds and you just might see 65% again, this time the pattern looks useable out to 21" or so. Not so awful. I will say this - whoever said choke makes no difference with a .410 never shot any 40 yd patterns with one.

Sam

We had a similar discussion yesterday at the 5-stand course where such things are put to practical use. My pal with the K-80 was shoointg chokes marked skeet and I/C. He claims the pattern board with his 7/8oz 12ga loads show they print THAT LOAD closer to modified and full. This combo essentially removes what would have been a 'finge' had he been shooting a standard load.

On the other hand, I use chokes made and marked by Briley as cylinder in my Invector Plus choked Cynergy. I also use a 1 oz load with hard shot. It prints a strong I/C in spite of the choke markings. Reason? Long cones, overbore barrel, some effective choke anyway due to the jug effect of the screw in system, modern shotcup wad and very hard shot. I like to have some fringe area on S/C targets, as I tend to be a crummy shooter on a regular basis and this gets me a better score. This is not skeet or trap where the distance can be closely approximated.

We also shot some 19 yard wobble trap. Everybody had a I/M choke or a full choke. Hardly obsolete on those targets.

If you do not have a near 70% pattern at the plane of the target, there will be statistical misses Digweed or no Digweed. This was measured and quantified years ago. Effecting a kill with a shotgun is a sometimes thing and the only way, and I mean the ONLY way to shoot perfect scores consistently is to have equipment that eliminates the chance variable. This still requires choke, at least with lead shot.

Apparently Winchester didn't agree with Mr. Hoggson about the ability to break targets at 20 yards with a cylinder bore .410. During the production of the 101 O/U, Winchester changed from 0.005" constriction for skeet chokes in the .410 to cylinder bore (they did the same for 12, 20 and 28 gauges too). At skeet station 4, the target never gets closer to the shooter than 21 yards, and people still managed to shoot decent scores with the cylinder chokes. I personally prefer 0.007" of choke for my .410 skeet guns, but Winchester didn't ask me.

12 gauge no choke break more skeet birds than smaller gauge with choke.

It only takes one pellet to break clay. Early flushing, late season, wild pheasants need alot more pounding to put down especially if you don't have a dog to chase down lightly hit runners. Personally, I like alot of choke. When crow hunting I use Super Full in my Maxus and my brother uses X-Full in his 870. Hit em hard or miss em clean.

Ed there's more to life than breaking "skeet birds"....I have no interest in a vintage SxS without choke.

Been there done that.

Sometimes. If you walk around on a target field, you'll pick up a surprising number of clays with one hole in them. Some with two. Very occasionally, 3. I don't think the guys who are shooting the top scores at the target games are counting on single pellet breaks. Especially not in American skeet, where if you don't go straight--especially with the gauges other than the .410--you aren't going to win.

If you're counting on one pellet breaking a clay bird it had better have some very fast rotation, so that you will get assistance from the centrifugal force helping it to come apart. I used to scavenge used clays at a local range to use in an old Comet trap. I have picked up hundreds with multiple holes that did not cause a chip or come part.

I like smoke, not chips. Centered birds and plenty choke gets smoke.

Stan

FWIW, the last time that I patterned some factory loads using plastic wads through two dif 'rifled spreader chokes' they both threw IC patterns.

One still sees Sporting Clays shooters on ocassion shooting 'threads'. Can't say that I see any advantage over a cyl or skeet type choke tube, but there are some who believe that wad retarders in chokes exist as well. Hahaha

Cyl chokes will often throw patterns w/hot centers, probably more so today than in times past, but that held true with card wads as well sometimes and even in black powder era, if one can believe what was written on the subject where trials were conducted for pattern effectiveness and penetration on 'standardized' card stock at the time.

The average flushed bird shot behind a good dog is probably well within the CYL or no choke range, at least for the first shot, some pheasant excepted.

Yeah, that is true, but you are really only inspecting whole clays. If you were looking for almost whole clays you'd probably find just as many that only show a hit or two on the broken edge. For skeet a cylinder bore works great but in the real world of hunting you are rarely presented those perfect shots at almost the same range time after time after time and in the clay sports, even though a guy isn't counting on chips whether he's a pro or a beginner, even chipped target counts as a hit and you get the same point as if it were smoked. In the game fields a shot that would chip clay and go down as a hit on the score card will more than likely just result in an unrecoverd crippled game bird. My point is that shooting clay is only one facet of shotgunning and for the most part an all around shotgun really does benefit a choked bore.

Lot's of choke, lot's of smoke, hit 'em hard and down they go.........from crows to doves and clays and everything else.........

Well, you might find an "almost whole clay" with no holes at all in it. Problem is, you don't know how many holes there were in the part(s) that broke off.

clampdaddy,

The whole clays that I find that have two or three holes in them represent a FAILURE of the load/choke combination used to break the bird at the distance it was shot, or the ability of the shooter to place more than two or three pellets on it. PERIOD. Think how many more, that were hit by a couple/three pellets, broke when they hit the ground! I am not interested in pieces of clays with or without shot holes in them.

If I find an "almost whole clay" it proves nothing. I don't know if was broken in the air or when it hit the ground.

I think we're both agreeing, tho', that choke is important. Whatever the "game".

Stan

Tom, I know something about those cyl choked "skeet" guns. I've had a few. One was a 4-barrel set I bought from a competitive shooter. Included with purchase were two Purbaugh tubes in.....guess which "gauge"..... Those .410 tubes were obtained b/c of the the original owner's dissatisfaction with his .410 breaks - unexplained misses wreak havoc on the psyche. Today you will not find one top competitive shooter using .000 in the .410. For that matter they do not use .000 in 28 or 20, either, but that's another story.

Tom, I have gone to the trouble of doing the pattern work with various 2.5" 1/2 oz target loads (shotcups). Have you? At least 2/10 21 yd patterns from these otherwise unalteered .000 barrels will have a target-sized hole at pattern center. Repeat the test if you wish, or believe that WW could never have made a mistake.

As it happens WW's transition to .000 choke sections is quite germane to this thread. It occurred as a result of an industrial leader buying the notion that shotcups make constriction unnecessary. For several years these guns, mostly Japanese 101s and Mirokus, were somewhat popular. In the end the skeet world came to disagree. I can't say for sure, but I doubt anyone at WW/New Haven had done their homework on the matter

As it happens, this was not the only screw-up made by New-Haven (I imagine Olin-Kodensha just did what they were told). Graded 101s of the period were often poorly stocked with way too much figure in the wrist. Again, Tom, I am speaking from personal experience - having had to replace a Diamond grade stock. The replacement factory stock was, likewise, poorly laid out.

Sam

Between 1867 and 1923 the second Marquess of Ripon[Earl de Gray] Shot 556,815 head of game. The vast majority of this game was shot with with cylinder bored Purdey hammer guns [used as pairs or as trios].In this era the standard shot charge was 1 1/8 ozs and shot shell muzzle velocity was 1200 ft; per second approx. To my knowledge the shooting skills demonstrated in the field by the Marquess have never been surpased; regardless of todays availability of high velocity shells,overweight shot loads and heavily choked guns.

556,815 head of game divided by 56 years = 9,943 head of game a year.

God must have been helping Lord Rippon with his addition.

Lord Ripon was indeed a fine shot, but though his total tally may not have been surpassed (his half million plus was not only birds but hares and rabbits as well), the tally for his last 24 full seasons have been surpassed. Sir Joseph Nickerson, from 1966 through 1988 accounted for 188,172 birds, an annual average of 7,841. Ripon's tally from 1899 through 1922 was 187,763 for an annual average of 7,823. For the last three seasons in that period Sir Joe used nothing but 28 bores and for the preceding fourteen seasons used only 20 bores.

Nickerson favored over and unders, matched trios, and on some favored a heavily choked first barrel in order to take the first bird approaching farther out, allowing the follow up shot to also be an incomer, not a crosser or going away shot. His second barrel was lightly choked. I would say this definitely surpasses Ripon, who, as you say used cylinder bore guns.

The better shot a man is, the better he can utilize choke, in an increasing proportion. Whatever Ripon did or did not do with his cylinder bore guns does not validate McIntosh's statement that choke is obsolete, due to today's highly advanced ammunition, IMO.

Stan

If true....They both must've had a heck of a game farm with lots of throwers.

No, Joe. Just lots of money, lots of time, and lots of driven birds.

Stopping to think about it . . . when I lived in Morocco, if I'd had the time and the inclination (and had I been a better shot than I was), my season bag could've reached 4 figures fairly easily. That's on walked up birds, over dogs. The daily limit on quail (coturnix) was 50, and that was not at all unrealistic.

Does modern moderate quality gun need chokes?
Yes, it does.
Old guys such as Mortimer or F.O.Matska in St.Petersburg even knew how to make tight pattern from barrels without chokes (but for several shot numbers only). But it was expensive guns with expensive hand honed barrels. Moderate quality gun needs chokes still and especially where hunter needs very tight pattern such as turkey or capercaillie hunting or goose hunting.
I respect MM, but he dreams in this case imho.

Sam, I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you, I just pointed out the fact that Winchester chose to change the 101 skeet guns to cyl in all gauges. I have shot a lot of skeet, over 125,000 registered targets, and probably twice that many in practice. At one time I managed to get classed as AA in all four gauges, and have been classified in AAA class in the .410 at times. I have never shot much at paper because I believe that I can tell all I need to know by the way the targets are breaking (or not breaking!). I did some of my best shooting with a Remington 3200 with Purbaugh tubes. The 20 had 0.014" of choke and the .410 had 0.007", and if memory serves, the 28 had about 0.006". I have known or at least seen the top skeet shooters over the last 35 years, and you are correct that they are shooting pretty tight chokes in all gauges, because they have the ability to do so, and they don't have to take a chance on that 1 of 100 targets slipping through a hole in the pattern. I have also shot cylinder bore guns in 12 and 20 gauges, and thought that they were adequate for skeet, but they won't give you that confidence building smoke puff that tighter constrictions will, and confidence is at least 5% of the final score.

Amen, brother. Sometimes a lot more than 5%. I'm not a skeet shooter, having only shot maybe ten rounds in my life, but the same statement holds true for sporting clays. There's nothing much prettier in shooting than a falling chandelle that literally "goes away" from a dense centered pattern.

Stan

My apologies, Tom. Your comment about confidence is spot-on. Any good target shooter will learn, or have learned, what he needs to know about the limitations of cylinder. Field shooting doesn't ordinarily provide that sort of volume. So, up here at least, I debate this issue more with hunters of grouse/WC covers. Well, a cyl 12 and factory trap loads is one thing - a cyl 28 with 3/4 oz #7.5s is another.

Sam

Yes, the limitations are geographical indeed, keep it in New England, because cylinder is as useless as tits on a boar out West............

I don't guess you've ever experienced opening day of dove season somewhere that has 100 mile visibility.....?....

Few folks that love to hunt desert quail or bandtails in western USA would ever want a cylinder bore anything, at least not after a hunt or two for these birds. Desert quail prefer to run rather than flush, usually flush at more like full choke distances, seldom hold for pointing dogs.IF not totally dead when they hit ground, they run for nearest dense, thorny bushes, never to be retreived. Bandtails are "talltreetop" birds, seldom providing any closer shots.

Niklas

The "limitations" often depend on things like the birds, the habitat, hunting pressure etc as much as (or more than) geography. I don't think you need any more choke for a grouse or woodcock in Upper Michigan than you do in Maine. And especially early in the season, you don't need any either place--at least not in a 20ga or larger. I hunted wild pheasants for several years with a 16 and a couple 12's choked .005 in the R barrel, which is not a lot and certainly less than most people would suggest. But over good pointing dogs, using the right loads (between an ounce and 1 1/16 of 7's or Brit 6's), the combination was absolutely deadly.

Doug, You guess right. 100 feet is often pushing it first week of October. But even then a cyl 28 isn't for me. Sam