Winchester subcontracted with Simmons Gun Works, Olathe Kansas and Moneymaker in Omaha Nebraska for some rib installations. The presence of proof marks on the receiver and barrel extension indicate that if this was not done by the Winchester plant it was done by an authorized Winchester sub contractor. I have never seen a post and donut rib on a Simmons gun so I'm pretty sure it was either done by Moneymaker or Winchester. The absence of the duck bill on the receiver suggests it is a Moneymaker rib however Simmons used this type of transition to the receiver also.
Thanks for the information. Do you know if there are records from Winchester or Moneymaker available?
Thanks for the information. Do you know if there are records from Winchester or Moneymaker available?
Phillip-if this helps you out- just as Roger Rule detailed all the stamping and serifs changes in the older M70 from 1936 to 1963-- are beware the "bogus Super Grades" being foisted off to the unknowning public- ditto on any Winchester- look closely at the serial number and the serif point shapes of the 1 and also the last number- see anything different between the stampings on the receiver and those of the mating barrel and magazine tube extension?? I do. This M42 is all dolled up, but it ain't original-IMO. If you don't mind me asking, as I have no dog in the ring here (I love Model 12's but not Model 42's, sorry)what is the initial asking price? RWTF
FWIW, I have an older 870 Remington Wingmaster made up into a very nice trap gun that sports among other custom work a Winchester type doughnut w/post rib. The treatment [rib's top finish & the receiver milling] appears identical to that shown on your 42. The rib is clearly marked "Simmons Gun Specialties .... Kansas" on it's left side.
If it were an aftermarket upgrade by Simmons the rib would be marked as a Simmons rib. RTF Obviously the gun was repolished prior to reblueing after the rib was installed which accounts for the stretched stampings and Phillip acknowledges it was an upgrade and most likely subbed out to Simmons or Moneymaker to do the work. Its nice gun but as Phillip already knows it is not original, however, simmons guns are picking up some interest as of late due to the scarcity of originals.
Phillip you might contact the people at Cody to see if they have any of the old Winchester records.
The gun does have the offset proof marks on the receiver. Did the aftermarket folks restamp the proof marks? I always thought that the offset proof indicated a factory gun, but in this case, the serial number places the gun too early for an original vent rib. I'm guessing a factory re-do.
You might try Pauline Muerrle (
http://www.paulinemuerrle.com) to see if she might have records on the gun
Thanks for the feedback so far, I am open to all information. Half the fun in trading guns is the knowledge you gain along the way. I will send Pauline an email. The gun is pretty nice, and it is what it is. I would love to learn as much as I can on who may have done the upgrade. Please continue with your information.
[quote=Run With The Fox..... look closely at the serial number and the serif point shapes of the 1 and also the last number- see anything different between the stampings on the receiver and those of the mating barrel and magazine tube extension?? I do. .... RWTF [/quote]
The ser#'s all look a bit different because they've all been gone over w/ hammer & chisel to sharpen them up somewhat.
I believe they are the original (matching) numbers,,but have been recut. Add to that the blurring done afterwards from the buffer.
The lettering on the left side of the bbl,,at least the portion I can see clearly that says ' 42-410 3IN. CHAM.' has been recut.
The 'MOD' choke marking is recut.
The proof marks look punched 'through the (re)blue' which is appropriate. The strikes are double and triple hits for each mark,,something you don't see very often on factory guns, but it's not unknown.
It's not rare to find a W/P proof mark stamp on a bench other than one at Big Red. Just make one.
Not a simple matter to install VR though.
I don't know if the contractors proofed (and stamped) the bbls after installation or that was done back at New Haven. I'd guess the latter. But I'm not a good guesser.
Just some observations.
Just had my '38 mfg skeet 42 out.
Looks like a nice shotgun,,what 42 isn't?
Would make a great starting point for an engraved upgrade
Phil
Based on the s/n being buffed, I'd suspect it was upgraded. But can't be sure one way or the other. Eubanks, in Idaho has put donutpost ribs on and Simmons now offers them. The proof cartouche' has been added afterward for years.
If anyone wants one of the proof stamps, they can be had in a few days.
Factory VR 42s commence around SN 125,000 (1954). The donut post pictured was the first variation and is seen till around SN 149,000 (1957), per Schwing. This may give us a clue as to the approx time the aftermarket installation was done by Simmons on what was, I suspect, originally a prewar/transition field. Original bbl/receiver proofs are hidden beneath rib/extension.
Metal has been redone, buffing is obvious. The original rust-blued bbl finish is gone. You might think it was all done by Simmons at time of rib install/bolt jeweling/etc. But why would the offset proofs not be sharp? So I think the metal has been "addressed" a couple of times, post mfg.
Wood is not original to the gun, and not factory IMO. The pad is proud of the wood.
All the above notwithstanding, I think it is a very nice gun. I think donut post ribs are the neatest. I had a similar donut post 42 redone by Simmons with upgraded wood and a Cutts. I am very sorry I let it go.
Modified in 42s is usually very close to factory skeet in actual constriction. They are murder on clays thrown on a skeet field and a VR adds just the right amount of weight up front.
Sam
My high school biology teacher had a brand new 42 vent rib in the box and he had a house fire and it turned into a charred mess.I think he said he paid $150 bucks for it at the time(early '64).I sold the remnants at my first gun show(1971) to someone who thought he could salvage the internals.
Thanks again for all of the feedback so far. Does anyone know if Moneymaker or Simmons kept records? Kutter I have always wanted some Mearns quail engraved on a gun. I really think they are one of the most beautiful and challenging birds to hunt. Possibly this should be the gun.
Collectors have stopped using the presence of proof marks to establish originality of Winchester ribs. Simmons is now offering the original Winchester matting pattern on ribs, so we have to be very savvy of serial number ranges and other features.
Simmons has had those stamps for many years. They were authorized to apply them to guns Winchester had contracted to them for rib installations.
WP stamps show up on GB every now and then. And Simmons appears to be doing donut post ribs again. Even so, I suspect the donut post rib on this one was added long ago. At some point it underwent another metal refinish. Sam
I was able to contact Pauline. Pauline, stated that the wood was not the work of the Winchester custom Shop. So the hunt continues for more knowledge. I was told as I can best recall when I traded for this gun several years ago that the gun had been upgrade in the 60's or 70's. Hoping someone has a 42 that has the same wood checkering and can point me to where it had been upgraded. Thanks for all of the feedback so far.
SOMETIMES the person who does the wood will leave data under the butt pad, have you looked there?
Mike
I have not looked but will do that today.
Thanks Phil
As an aside, for you Model 42 lovers (and that probably includes any sensate shotgunner), Simmons has an interesting refurb deal on Model 12s and Model 42s. For $1,400 they will install a solid rib (for $100 less they will put on a vent rib, if you absolutely must), reblue the entire gun, jewel the bolt and add "medium fancy" skeet wood (long forend) to the factory dimensions.
Now if I could just find a cheap Model 42 beater to send them.....
Bruce
Good gosh! Bruce Buck posts on a pump gun thread, and on our forum. Welcome and thanks for the good information on the Simmons package. I also would like to find a white 42 to send them.
Once again thanks for everyone that took time to help me out with my search for information. I did pull the terribly fitting recoil pad and had hoped to find some clues as to whom may have done the wood. Unfortunately that was not to be. The workmanship other than the pad, is great. I believe I will try to locate an original 42 buttplate and have it fit. I love my SXS but this 42 might just grow on me. May just need to sell one of my Francotte 410's and do as Kutter mentioned get it engraved.
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