I've always had a keen fondness for the Winchester Model 21 as I'm sure many others do. I'd like to see some photos of some nice 21's. I would also like to hear some opinions on what people think they like about the Win 21 and also what they don't like, both as a target and as a game guns. Anybody interested in this topic on a cold winter day?

Sign up on the model21shotgun.com website and post a few comments. There are some great pictures on there and the webmaster has not closed down the website as he said he might. The bluepike.tripod.com website has apparently been closed. It was a great Model 21 website at one time.

Here's a few....
Some shooters/collectors feel the 21 was the best of the American sxs guns. I don't believe you can wear one out simply shooting it.
Winchester also did some nice custom work on 21's....12 gauge 2 barrel set no. 6 engraved with B checkering.
"Winchester's Finest The Model 21" by Ned Schwing is the definitive book on this shotgun and well worth reading by anyone interested in 21's.

Last time I tried to visit Mike's M-21 site about 6 or 8 months ago, my anti-virus filter warned me away from it as a dangerous site -- apparently it got infected. He'd collected quite a bit of data on actual weights of M-21s by gauge.

Jay

I have had 12, 16 and 20's, two were two barrels sets and one set was a composite set plus several single guns. all down the road these days. Never had a 28 or .410, but did lust for one long ago. Great guns for clay targets but they were built like tanks. Heavy to carry, when you get older and understand that a pound or two less becomes 20 by the end of the day.

Never had a failure of any type with any M-21. Workmanship was as good as it gets. The 20 was custom shop gun and the others were production guns all before 1964.

Funny thing about M-21 that no matter what you have the dealers want to tell you that is not in demand to try to lower your asking price more so than any other type of gun I have dealt in. Then when they get it in their shops it becomes the rarest thing on Earth.

I was looking for an early two trigger field gun and every one I came across was rare as hens teeth. Then the same shops acted like the two triggers were as bad as rust when I tried to sell the one I bought several years later. The same dealer who wanted an extra grand for one told me two trigger demand was gone and it was now worth five hundred less than a single.

Point is that this is a very specialized market and everything needs to be considered before any sale. Winchester hype does drive the price to some extent and you have to be careful not to fall in love with any one gun when looking. Many of the engraved guns are factory personal upgrades so be aware.

Here you go, my latest,
a 16 gauge Skeet, 2 barrel set.



Jon,
I've got a 1933 double trigger, extractor gun. 20 gauge.
By far the lightest 21 I own at 6 lbs even.

An interesting topic & I'm surprised it hasn't drawn more comments.

People seem to either love the 21 or don't like it at all. One of the English gun writers (Geoffrey Boothroyd possibly) referred to the 21 as "Truly Ugly" which I think is a little extreme but the 21 is a long way from the most handsome boxlock I've ever seen. I would call it solid & purposeful looking sort of like a 32 Remington/Krieghoff K80 O/U would be described & like the 32 Remington/Krieghoff K80, covering it with lots of engraving & or "gold chickens", doesn't IMHO improve the looks over that of the basic gun in most cases. I like some of the custom aftermarket engraved guns that are done with a little restraint much better than I like the factory pattern highly engraved guns.

The 21 has a reputation for strength & durability due to the long action bar & the type of steel used in it's manufacture but as Ky Jon has said in his comments the 21 is on heavy side & this is especially apparent when compared to English & European game guns of the same gauge.

To me most all 12 ga 21's are too heavy to be considered for use as an upland gun but they make an excellent clay target gun for the few of us who prefer a SxS for clays & for those that prefer a single trigger the 21's trigger is one of the better ones made.

The 16 & 20 ga. 21's however do make very nice upland guns as their weight is reasonably close to that of a 12 ga English game gun. I especially like the feel of most 16 ga 21's & the weight is close to perfect for shooting 1 1/16 or 1 1/8 oz of shot.

Engraved by Sam Welch. 16 bore Skeet

Yes, it's odd to me there isn't more interest in this thread. I guess people either love 21's or hate them as has been mentioned. I think they are very well built guns. Very few guns are made with chopper lump barrels like the Model 21. Here's a photo of a gun I picked up several years ago. This gun is a 20b that was made in the Winchester custom shop. It has vent rib, 28" barrels, choked IC/Mod. It has engraved on the top rib 'Custom Built by Winchester for Kerr's Beverly Hills'. Apparently, Kerr's was a sporting good store that sold guns to the movie stars back in the day. It's a neat gun imho. [img:center][/img]

Daryl,

Your post proves there is an exception to every rule. That is one of the few engraved 21's with gold that I like! Very nicely done.

I have sworn off M21's but Bob, looking at your 2-bbl 16 ga Skeet I am definitely tempted…. Beautiful gun.

Some of you have seen these pics before on an engraving thread. In 1990 I bought the gun from a friend -- a standard post-war 16 ga. field grade with non-original buttstock. Galazan's restocked it to my specs about 10 years back. The engraving is recent, by Ray Cover, done as a remembrance of a very special dog. I like the way it turned out.

At 6-3/4 lbs. the gun carries easy for all-day pheasant hunting, and is pleasant to shoot with 1-1/8 oz. loads. The hinge pin screw was correctly re-set to horizontal since these pics were taken. My cheap auto-focus camera doesn't do justice to Ray Cover's work. His scroll is beautifully cut, perfectly shaped curves, and the shadowing he uses gives it depth and texture that's mostly lost in these pics.

Jay

Bob, Your guns are very nice. Is your 16 ga with the checkered side panels a 'deluxe' model? Jay's 21 with his dog engraved is neat too.

Strong & dependable, but I do not care for the looks.

And too heavy for an upland carry gun, IMO.

Brittany used a phrase that I think should be copyrighted - "solid and purposeful." There's not a better description of the 21.

To my eye, the exterior finish reminds me of a blued Ruger Red Label, nice but not special. The working surfaces that I have seen are top notch and we know the materials are good. Like all of the other classic American makers, the gun really starts to shine when it goes upscale.

If you handle enough of the old guns, there's something different about the 21. Try to imagine picking one up when they first hit the market, the new-fangled blued receiver that did not require case hardening, the incredibly tiny bottom rib, and some pretty nice wood. It would have made an impression as "solid and purposeful." People must have thought so back then, because Winchester sold a cart load of them during the Depression when everyone else was sucking air.

16 ga. 21 with 28" barrels IC&IM, splinter, extractors, single trigger that weighs 6lb. 4oz. just right for me.


16 gauge with 28" barrels IC&M...custom stocked but engraved by Ulrich

Scroll on my no. 6 engraved 21...engraving done by Pauline Muerrle in the Winchester custom shop.

Bob your 20 was about what I was looking for back them. Perhaps in 16 or 12 as a young man thinks bigger is better. Now I would limit my search to a 16 or 20 most likely.

I did find a 12 with the proper number of triggers, two, which had lots of wear and had been altered quite a bit by previous owners. Best of all someone had changed the chokes to .005 and .035 which was a very useful combination. An old recoil pad had been smoothed by use so much it went up like a glove and just fit into my shoulder like a second skin. I lament selling it but used the money to purchase a Superbrite which I lusted for at the time. In the end it was the worst fitting double I ever owned and taught me several good lessons. Most of all the next gun is often not the upgrade you envision and perhaps is the worst mistake you can make gunwise.

KY, do you still have the Superbritte? I would be interested. I am so stupid.

No Eightbore, I sold it about six years ago. Make that ten years upon reflection. Time flies when you pass 50. The one I had was the side opening O/U which I first saw in Gun Digest maybe 20-25 years ago. It just looked like a cool gun to shoot. I never figured out why I shot is so badly. Not fair, nor poor it was bad. If I had used that gun to commit suicide I would have needed to reload at least once. Perhaps it is like a Darne which you either shoot well or never will.

I paid about six and sold it for ten to a Dr. in Lexington KY who had more money than I did. He could not hit the barn door with it but he did not care. It was a unique gun and you just looked good missing with it. I think G&H found a unfinished stash of them and had them finished in the 90's. Like I said in the earlier post I learned that the next gun was not the upgrade but could be a big mistake. I never lusted for another one of them but I seemed to find solid rib Superposed very attractive right now. I just never learn I guess.

buzz,
Kerrs in Beverly Hills was owned by Alex Kerr, one of the greatest Skeet Shooters ever. I have a model 21 that was restocked by Kerrs in a beautiful stripped stock. I used to visit the shop back in the 70"s when I lived in CA.
Interesting story is that one day Elvis was at the gun counter and was buying a Model 12 Winchester. He ended up buying one for everybody else who was at the gun counter.

Picked up this 2 barrel case in a trade a while back.

GaryW, You have some very beautiful Model 21's. The engraving on your 16b Ulrich gun really toots my horn and I see the gun will 'collect' quail pretty well too. :-)

J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co. and J. Stevens Arms Co. built many more thousands of doubles with chopper lump barrels Than Winchester ever thought about.

They are often heavy if we try to compare them to "game gun" norms. Rocketman's MOI database demonstrates they can be every bit as fast as game guns, depending on configuration. My 20s are in the 6.5-6.75# range. A friend has a 6# 6oz 16 skeet. I have killed lots of birds with 20 and 12 ga M-21 skeets. I still think they make wonderful grouse/WC guns for those able to carry them all day.

That weight thing bothers some who think it silly to carry a 20 that weighs more than a "proper" 12. They forget that a B&P 1 oz 20 does as well in the real world as loads for which the 2.5" 12 is suited. You must get past not having a "square load" - an advantage that resides mostly between the ears given modern loads.

As range guns they are very nice, durable, and fairly comfortable. I wish I owned a trap, as the ones I've tried made me look decent.

The 21 SST is good, but can act up. It is particularly sensitive to problems with bedding at the head. Tony fixed one of mine and it now works perfectly. Have a DT-ej skeet 20, too. I like it just fine.

21 ribs can loosen, as can forend lugs.

Sam

Gary, does this gun have factory wood? Guessing this light a gun has an ample stock cavity?

If I wanted to carry my 16 for woodland grouse, boring wood from the stock and switching to a lightweight pad could get the weight under 6-1/2 lbs. But it's just right for me now for pheasants. Maybe that will change when I get into my 70s.

Jay

Researcher,

The model 21 chopper lump is enhanced by dovetailing the two barrels together. Other chopper lump doubles using the dovetail were the BSA, the French Ideal and possibly some Pieper models.

What I find interesting about the model 21 is that it lasts and lasts despite not being "fitted on the circle" and not having the much praised Purdey style underbolt.

Sounds like you're correcting buzz, but production volume doesn't pertain to what he meant. There weren't many 21s made, period. Pointing out the Stevens as one other example (with American-made as a qualifier -- guns available to most American buyers) pretty much confirms "very few".

Jay

Thx Jay, but I will bow to Researcher's superior knowledge on the subject. He made a valid point of which I'm sure many people were/are unaware.....including me.

That 16ga. 21 has factory wood. Serial numbers on the wood and fore end iron match the receiver serial number. It's an early gun with Winchester red pad. And thanks for the compliments...the 16 ga. Ulrich engraved gun now belongs to my lifelong shooting buddy.

This gun is a 20b Grade IV, Custom built magnum field gun, 2 barrel set, 30" F/F and 28" SkI SII, with A-carved wood, sold in 1954 to Mr. J.T. Boone who oddly may have been an executive with the Mossberg shotgun corporation. [img:center][/img]

Buzz,

I'm curious as to what the 20 ga magnum weighs with the 30" bbls.

I've been thinking for a long time that a 20ga 21 with 30" bbls, open pistol grip & Hession style FE would make a really fun casual sporting clays gun that could see some use in the field as well.

I have a 30", very early, two barrel set with 26" WS1 and WS2 extra barrels. The 30" barrels need work, but the set is a great basis for a custom set with new wood and engraving, or not. I guess I should get busy on those 30" barrels and the Cody letter. This could be my dream Model 21 after 48 years of shooting the Model 21. I bought the first in 1965 when I was 19 years old.

Only about 175 20 gauge guns with 30" barrels were made.
I have a 1933 Tournament Grade that was a 2 barrel set also. The 26" Skeet barrels went missing well before I acquired it.

It may very well have been on this site that I procured a second set of barrels for my 2 barrel set. 28" Choked IC/ Skeet II, the bores measure .004/.006, truly Skeet In/ Skeet Out.






[


I'm 6 lb 10 oz with the 30" barrels

Both are 16ga double trigger/ejector guns. Top is shown with its original stock, letter called it 6lbs 4oz and I weighed it as 5lbs 15oz, but either way not too much for most people to carry. When I sold it, the new owner re-stocked it with some beautiful Am. walnut.

Bottom gun is a Trap grade (Mod/Cyl) that came to me with the SG stock and splinter shown, I had a BT fit and wound up having a new Eng. walnut SG stock fitted as well. With the heavier wood and recoil pad it's probably just over 6 3/4lbs.

I have a 20 gauge Skeet grade, with two sets of barrels - 3" chambers in both. The barrels are 26" and 28". With the 28's on, it weighs 6# 12 oz.

I have been attempting to do that with no luck, you must email the forum administrator (budrichard) to get access and no reply has been forthcoming. I am very curious about the M21 since a friend gave me one.

I received an email last Fall saying he was considering taking down the Forum due to lack of activity. I have not attempted to sign in since then.

Yup, I think it's all over on the Model 21 website for lack of interest. We're it from now one.

I kinda suspected that since the last post over there was middle of last year.
Thanks anyway!