I shot a sporting clays event this morning with my 1873 Vintage Stephen Grant-Jones Lever. The lookers were amazed by the scores, and that I was "actually shooting a DAMASCUS gun. One trapper asked if I had to really had to move my finger each time(double triggers), A couple people backed away each time I got into the stand waiting for the barrels to explode I presume. I was high score on my squad which was also another shock to the moderns.
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YEEEEEE HAWWWWW !!!!!
Great Texas report
Mike
Leighton, well done. I get the same sorts of comments shooting my 1884 Mortimer. When you shoot them we'll, it does reduce the negative comments and increases the genuine curiosity. Planning on this one at Nationals this year. Maybe we'll run into each other there. .
Great fun isn't it! I shot my Woodward back action hammer gun (snap action under lever) with black powder handloads on a round of clays. Some thought I actually blew myself up! They had never seen black powder in action. Really funny. Cheddite primed factory paper hulls, 90 grains of GOEX 1fg, hard card wad, lubed felt wad, plastic shot cup and 7/8 oz of 7&1/2 shot. Hammered most of my birds and the guy's were quite impressed. This is really more fun that we should be allowed to have. Some people just can not understand how we can be shooting these old guns.
sounds like fun Leighton,
the newest gun I occasionally shoot clays with is from 1904, that one has the hammers hidden inside. But normally - the hammers are out where they belong. I rarely get the concern about the damascus blowing up, mostly I actually only get asked if I use special shells.
most people are interested in what the gun is and how old, more than a few trappers (we only have them on the 5 stand) have jumped at the chance to switch places and try a couple rounds.
BUT- I do get the surprise that they shoot well and break target so well. Which is really the oddest question if you think about it - yes - an ounce of lead shot coming out of the barrels of this old gun at 1150 or 1200 FPS works just like an ounce of lead from a new over under at 1150 or 1200 FPS.
you guys made my day!
I too love shooting the old ones...the older the better!
have often contemplated shooting a round of skeet with muzzle loaders. figure I would need four guns, a cart and a loader...
Ed,
Great idea
Come on down to Amarillo, we can accommodate you. Tuesday morning from 09:30 till Noon and then we will chow down.
Mike
Actually, Ed, it's pretty easy. I carry one gun and shoot two shots at each station. When I go around the second time, I shoot the doubles on the corners, and try various drills on the crossing stations, report pairs for example. It's fun, and picking up the second target in a pair, as it comes out of the smoke, can be a challenge. Grafton County fish and Game is used to me doing this, and a lot of them are shooting interesting guns.
One person came up to me with his eyes as wide as saucers and said those aren,t Damascus bbls are they?
Stallones,
Lovely gun.
Nice lines, beautiful wood.
Prooved for 1 1/8 oz?
How about we hear some more about the Woodward? Please?
DDA
Stallones,
Lovely gun.
Nice lines, beautiful wood.
Prooved for 1 1/8 oz?
Not unless reproofed. There wasn't any proofmark indicating shot charge when that gun was made.
Magnificent Gun: Shooting old ones is pure pleasure.
When they ask: "Are those Damascus?" My answer is "Yes, You better stand back."
Sam Ogle, Lincoln, NE
I acquired it several years ago from Kirby. Just too good to pass on. I don't own a camera suitable to transfer photo's to the internet...really do have to get one. Locks marked J. Woodward & Sons. 3XXX number range. Action flats marked: 16 Woodward"s Patent, crown V and a crown with BNP. Snap under lever with 1 sliding bolt and 2 round bolts. Best engraving (have missed a few clays when my eye was drawn to that level of quality), and stunning French walnut butt at 14 & 3/4 inches. Forend is key fastened with matching wood. Barrels are 30 inch sleeved and marked as such with Birmingham proofs. 12-70. 18-4, Birmingham nitro proof under crown, STD under crown Original top rib and bottom ribs relayed, marked James Woodward & Sons, 64 St. James Street, London. Marked 1 (of a pair).
As received, choked @ 36 and 44. Clays just winked out when hit but, these were pretty tight for my taste. I had them opened to 20 and 28. Much better on clays and pheasant. I really like using this gun. I will have my gunmaker clean and refinish the wood as it's a bit cloudy, masking some of that outstanding grained walnut. Should be real eyepopping when cleaned up. Gun fits me well and I enjoy shooting it. Having been sleeved, it came at a price that I could afford. For me, it's a "keeper"!
I really have no interest in modern shotguns...the old ones are just so gorgeous.Several folks have told me my trigger guard was broken when I was shooting my 1901 Green Jones action hammer.lol.
franc
It is proofed for about anything as it is a 10 bore chamberlined to 12 ga
It is proofed for about anything as it is a 10 bore chamberlined to 12 ga
It'd be interesting to see what kind of pressure 12ga loads generate in that gun. Under current SAAMI standards, 10ga service pressure is lower than 12ga: 11,000 psi vs 11,500.
31 May 2014
“Stallones,” yours is a very photogenic and beautifully built circa 1873 Stephen Grant & Sons gun with Jones underlever. I believe the fine hammer guns built during that particularly remarkable gunmaking era are nonpareil, especially those built by Grant and J. Woodward & Sons. Those of us who own antique and vintage guns and are aware of their exceptional quality and innate capabilities are sometimes amused by the sudden surprise and even awe expressed by committed users of 'modern' guns. This usually occurs when the unaware modern gun user is first confronted by the high quality and remarkable capabilities of our elder guns, especially if put on display by someone who knows how to use their attributes to best effect, whether at the range or gun club, or on the shooting field.
The wonderful quality of your gun, and that of the gunmaking firm generally, interested and intrigued me. That caused me to undertake some quick research. Inexplicably, I did not find much information about the aforementioned Grant underlever gun, although I did find an excellent article concerning J. Woodwood & Sons guns, earlier mentioned here in comments by "Erik 375," which is shared below. (See “Great Unsung Guns of England, More Than Purdey,” by Terry Wieland, page 58, Gun Digest 2013). I hope everyone enjoys the excerpt:
“James Woodward & Sons was in the absolute top echelon of London gunmakers, mentioned in the same breath as Purdey and Boss. James the elder learned the trade with Charles Moore, brought his sons James and Charles into the business, and became J. Woodward & Sons, in 1872.
“Although it remained a small family firm for its 80-year existence (it was absorbed by Purdey in 1948, the only company Purdey ever acquired), the Woodwards were inventors, as well as the finest of gunmakers.
“In 1876, James the younger collaborated with the well-known inventor Thomas Southgate to patent an underlever cocking action for hammer guns, called the 'Automation.' This mechanism (patent No. 600) was easily adapted to a hammerless sidelock with tumblers and, as such, was called 'The Automatic.' It was widely advertised, and the name is engraved on the rib near the standing breech. Woodward made a specialty of underlever guns, employing several types from the swiveling Jones underlever to push-forward 'snap action' underlevers and the tumbler-cocking snap underlever of the Automatic.
“Traditionally, Woodward’s main rival in the trade was Boss & Co., which favored sidelevers, until the firm was acquired by John Robertson, in 1892. Robertson not only refined Boss’ game guns, he invented the Boss over/under and selective single trigger. Woodward followed suit with an over/under and single trigger of its own, today, the Woodward over/under is widely considered the finest ever made. Purdey’s major motive for buying Woodward, in 1948, was to obtain the over/under design for themselves.
“Although the quality of its guns was never questioned, the Woodwards were known for being iconoclastic. The firm favored 29-inch barrels, while others made theirs 30-inches. Woodwards featured half-pistol hands, when others insisted on straight grips, and their walnut was known for its flair. Among engraving patterns, the Woodward craftsmen preferred tiny scroll, and the arcaded (umbrella-carved) fence became almost a trademark of them, as did protruding tumbler pivots on their lock plates.
“…There were other Woodwards in the trade, including two in Birmingham, and one must be careful. As well, J. Woodward’s output was not large—only about 5,000 guns and rifles over an 80-year period—and most were purchased by serious shooters who knew guns. As such, they were put to hard use. Steve Denny, a director of Holland & Holland, says he has seen many ‘tired old Woodwards' over the years, and many have been either rebarreled or sleeved…Examining a gun from J. Woodward & Sons shows you what gunmaking can be.”
The foregoing is the best short description of this firm and its productions that I have to date found published.
If one were considering the refinishing of their gun’s wood, I would encourage them to have the wood refinished. I have had the wood on all of my antique game guns professionally refinished. However, all mechanical problems are successfully dealt with first and foremost, if present. Then, leaving the action metal alone, I tend to have the furniture ‘carefully’ reblacked so as not to diminish the clarity or sharpness of the engraving, and have the barrels professionally rebrowned or reblacked as well. That is sensible and sensitive restoration, without any attempt to make the gun new; but done instead to have it appear and truly be used though well maintained. Whenever it can be done, I think professional restorative maintenance and maintenance per se are part of one's temporal conservator-ship and responsibility, and that the oppositional insistence on ‘originality,’ irrespective of all other considerations, such as aesthetics and mechanical condition, is overdone and sometimes harmful to the gun.
It is good to know that the majority of correspondents employ their antique and vintage guns at the skeet, sporting clays or trap range, and afield certainly, as too many times these practical and useful works of art languish in our safes or remain arranged in the gun rack, and not used as intended.
Personally, I generally use a circa 1890 consecutive pair of 12-bore (2-1/2 inch) J. Harkom & Son guns when at the gun club: the 30-inch barreled gun for trap, choked half and three-quarter; and the second with 28-inch barrels, choked improved cylinder and half, for skeet. Afield, and if the game bird is pheasant or a species of our larger grouse, I use the 12-bore (2-1/2 inch), circa 1893 W. W. Greener G 60 “Royal,” choked half and three-quarter; and if the game is quail or of similar size, the circa 1882 Westley Richards 20-bore (2-1/2 inch used, though nitro-proofed in the 1930s for 3-inch), choked cylinder and quarter, makes the hunting trip. The circa 1882 10-bore (2-7/8 inch) Westley Richards “Highest Quality” gun is reserved for cranes or when ducking. Like the correspondents here, I too use appropriate ammunition that accords with the gun being shot.
I do not use black powder as the propellant loaded in the cartridges fired by my antique breech-loading guns, although I know many people who use it exclusively and obviously like to use it for their separate purposes. They seem to like the authenticity and tradition attaching to its use, both of which ideals I support. Most of my shooting is done with either “Game Bore” or “RST” 2-1/2 inch ammunition, or commercial light trap loads if the gun has original 2-3/4 inch chambers, whether at the club, range or afield. I conscientiously keep the velocity and weight of the number 7 or 8 shot charge (I only use no. 5 or 6 shot in the 10-bore, and then only for a specific purpose.) low as practicable in these damascus-barreled guns, and because these are mainly light game guns, which have been stocked with wood over 120-years old.
The consensus here seems to be that most like damascus barrels, and do utilize them. I much prefer damascus barrels to steel barrels for a number of reasons, as I am sure several of the correspondents here do, but unfortunately have had to reeducate my fellow shooters on a few occasions concerning the advisability of their use. Frankly, I try to ignore the unconvinced naysayer who cannot be persuaded with facts or is willfully ignorant on the subject, apparently preferring old wives’ tales, and simply recommence enjoying my sport. As it usually happens, however, most listen to someone who knows and can convey the facts, and they will accept fact as fact. I believe that the more our elder, damascus-barreled guns are brought out from wherever stored and used, the more often other enthusiasts will see them, and the sooner come to (again) accept them as non-dangerous, fully practical and useful.
I am sure that all will continue to greatly enjoy their "OLDER" guns for many years to come.
Best regards,
Edwardian
Stallones, I enjoy seeing your gun. Here's a pic of a very fine 1883 I recently shot at the Nimrod Classic in Polson, Mt. Notice the black powder, but I was not "high gun".
It is a great feeling indeed to do well with these old guns, and to see them put to the use they were intended. Beautiful Grant btw.
These topics are always fun to read. Thank's Edwardian for the Woodward info. Daryl, that is a great photo of a vintage gun using black powder in action. Fun isn't it! I use Federal or Cheddite paper hulls for them in both 2&3/4 and 2&1/2 chambers. Usually 1 oz of shot with a plastic shot cup to prevent leading. Half way through the course I'll shoot a station with appropriate smoke less shells to clean out the fouling. I usually ask to shoot last at stations in the woods just to not smoke up a station for my squad mates. People get put off with the thought of clean up but, it is so easy. Wipe down the action, hot soap and water, dry and oil the barrels and that's it. Watch "The Shooting Party" to get a feeling for just how much fun vintage guns and blackpowder can be.
Just got in from black powder clay shooting. We meet as a small club once a month. Used a 20 bore double breech loader hammer gun by Jackson of Nottingham today.
At a recent clay shoot I was using a side by side and was asked by one of the over/under lot; one who has been shooting for years, if I had to move my head from side to side to shoot first down one barrel and then the other. He was being serious! Lagopus.....
Lagopus, you missed a great opportunity. You should have asked him if he has to move his head down for the bottom barrel and up for the top one.
Somewhere, I remember a quote from a Brit: "If God intended for us to shoot over/unders; he would have put our eyes one on top of the other."
Unfortunately, Derbyshire is out of my sphere of activity.
Even more historical, this gun was ordered by Pierre Lorrilard the tobacco king of the 19th century. I also have the near identical gun in 16 ga that he ordered for his son in 1875 from Grant.
Now, that is really interesting. The historical association some of our guns have give us a chance to research and appreciate them all the more. As Edwardian said we get to use and maintain these lovely guns and then pass them on to another generation. My nephew already called dibb's on the Woodward and he does shoot it quite well. One of the reasons these forums and the "vintage" shoots are so much fun is the chance to view and exchange information on the guns and their makers. The early cartridge era is really interesting as they experimented with so many different designs. By the late 1890's they had worked out the classic English game gun we enjoy today. There is a certain "something" about cocking your own hammers to bring the gun to ready.
I took my newly restored Remington Model F Trap to the trap range on the weekend. I was shooting my own rolled 2 1/2 inch 3 1/2 drams blackpowder shells. I was stopped half way through the round by the club officials asking if I was using magnum loads since magnum loads are not allowed on the course. The different sound and the smoke had got their attention. I explained the gun and the loads and all was well. They had never seen anyone using blackpowder loads at the club before.
Advice, please: I want to start shooting BP in my older guns, and recently bought RMC brass shells for my 10 and 8. Can you experienced gentlemen advise me on whether to use F or FF granulation?
Thanks in advance.
I'd use 1fg in both. Brass hulls are thinner and have a lot of volume. Use the bulkier powder to take up some of that space and reduce the wad column. Also you have to find the proper diameter wads for those hulls. For brass in the 12 ga. I use 11 ga. cards and fiber wads with 1fg. For paper I use 12 ga. wads and cards with either 1 or 2fg depending on the load I want to build. In the 10ga I would use 100 to 110 grs of 1 fg and a 1&1/8 to 1&1/4 oz of shot. For the 8ga? 4 drams 110 to 120 grs of 1fg and 1&1/4 to 1&1/2 oz of shot. ( might be a bit more fun than I'd want to have) Load some up and give them a try. I think you will like them and have some good fun.
Eric - my "new" 8 has four inch chambers and is stamped for 8 drams of BP and 2 3/4 oz. of shot. I think I will work up to that slowly.
Cool!!
Are your 8 gauge RMC hulls 4 inch??
Thanks
Mike
You won't ever get in trouble using a coarser granulation (Fg), then carefully working to a smaller granulation (FFg). Consider that Fg is used for cannons.
SRH
Well all I can say is they were better men than I! 220 grains of powder and 2&3/4 oz. shot. Punt gun/canon? I'd still start at 110 - 120 grains of 1fg and 1&1/4 oz. shot and see if that accomplishes the task at hand. 8 bores sound like more fun than I'd care to have.
Yes, the RMC hlls are 4". And I will work up to 8 drams VERY slowly. I am used to a .470, but imagine that is tame compared to this beast. Will report back if I survive.
