Could anybody here give me any information of that french shotgun maker ? My client has very nice side-by-side sidelock shotgun from named maker.

Anything on G. Callens' address? Perhaps a city in France? If Callens is not located in St. Etienne, or possibly Paris, chances are that's the name of the shop that sold the gun, not the maker. And the gun could very well be Belgian rather than French. Good photos showing proofmarks would be very helpful.

There is text "Paris-Roubaix" and barrels have both Belgian and French proofmarks (St. Etienne). Of course G.Callens could be seller too but his name is not engaved on the barrel, only in watertable

Larry is probably right, I have a nicely made 16ga boxlock that is marked Ets Lien Chapu Callens on the right barrel; Paris-Roubiax-Lalle on the left one. It has Belgian proofs with a lower case d as proof date. It has a manufactures mark on the standing breech, I have some photos on my computer I will dig up if there is interest.

Please, do so.

Here are some photos of my Callens?? I thought there were some of the proof marks and trademark on the standing breech, but I guess not. I will try to get a good photo of the trademark, it is kind of faint

Try to get a good photo of the barrel flats and all the proofmarks. That will be most helpful in helping you sort out your gun.

I have good recource of books according to proof marks. As I said there is both belgian and french proof marks. Then there is one sign like eagles head which I don´t identify and initials (maybe barrel makers) "JT". Text "Choke" and "17,4" and "18,4". Barrels have honed and re-blued but you could hardly see text "Acier xxxxx" which should tell steel of barrels.

This shotgun has engaved very sparely; only narrow "band" round the lock plate and some on screws head.

According yours comments and proof marks it seems that shotgun has been made and proofed in Belgium and then imported and re-proofed in France. Seller was G. Callens.

I find from internet one auction cataloque where has sold very similar shotgun. Seller has descibed shotgun as follows:

"fusiL De chasse à platines stéphanois G. Callens. 2 coups, calibre 12/65, éjecteurs. 2 paires de canons juxtaposés de 80 cm. Chokes : droits : full et 1/4 ; gauche : full et 1/2. bascule et platines gravées de bouquets et rinceaux feuillagés. Double détentes dont une articulée. Crosse en noyer de 36,5 cm avec rallonge de 1,5 cm, en partie quadrillé. 5e catégorie. Dans une valise en bois recouverte de cuir, garnie à l'intérieur de feutre bordeaux. Étiquette dans le couvercle "Maison Lien et Chapu Callens Sr Paris"."

There is one foto of gun and it seems to be very similar but with two barrels:

Eagle Heads sounds like Cap or Falla.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

When Shooting Sportsman Magazine first started up in the '80's, there was an article in one of those early issues titled "As good as a Purdey?". It was about a really nice sidelock Callens with several photos. You might contact Ed Carroll with SSM for a reprint.
JR

Could you tell what they means in this case ?
Thanks for the hint, it seems that article was in February/March 1988´s magazine

"Good As A Purdey or Parisian Magic
Topics: Finding a substitute for a London "best" gun Gauge: "Ets. Lien, Chapu, Callens"

It seems too that article reprints are quite expensive, 60$ or even 70$ so it´s too expensive to order it to here Finland. But if anybody of yours have that magazine and he could scan me a copy of article I would appreciate very much.

As with many of the French sporting weapons, they were made on the backs of the talented tube makers in Liege:



http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20e%20f/a%20falla%20gb.htm
Littlegun gives the above as Jean Falla but his predecessor Josef Cap may have commenced with the mark.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks a lot, Raimey ! Have you any idea who own those initials "JT" ?

Ah, one would have to determine if any effort was applied in France, which I think not, and then attribute the initials to either St. Etienne or Liege. If Liege, my 1st guess would be Jean Thonnard. As it has been stated, images would be most beneficial.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Falla used a JF & merged JF so closely inspect with a glass ir use chalk.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Yes, letters JT looks very similar as in this gun engraved by Jean Thonnard. Initials, whose have quite personal design, are in left lower corner of foto below i.e. exact same place as in "my" gun.

Raimey, the first sentence in the above description in French, of the other Callens gun the original poster found, indicates that it's either a St. Etienne gun, or the individual who wrote the description believes it to be from St. Etienne. "Stephanois" is the adjective for someone or something from St. Etienne. Of course it's possible that Callens, who I'm still thinking is a dealer in Paris rather than a gunmaker, could have had guns made both in St. Etienne and Liege.

Igorrock, I can't make out all the proofmarks in your photo, but everything I can make out looks Belgian to me. Could be I'm missing something, but I don't see any St. Etienne proofs.

I'd be comfortable with the fact that Callens sourced both, but we have yet to see any image of the subject sporting weapon coupled with some verbiage. Said verbiage described a mixed set of worn marks along with Cap/Falla's Eagle head & JT. Without images, all this points to Belgian sourcing. Can't say on any of the other Callens.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Callens seems to be a dealer in Paris. Just found this:

http://www.naturabuy.fr/12-70-Damon-Petrick-item-1282266.html#description

"Fait pour Callens & Modé Paris"
Voila!

And there are other "Callens" on naturabuy.fr

Gunwolf

Here are photos of proofmarks and trademark on my Callens, also do you think there was an inlay on the forend that is missing?




Trademark on the standing breech


normal Belgian proofmarks


marks forward of the flats


some thing missing here?

All Information on Callens et Mode :

http://www.passionlachasse.com/t14614-comment-se-fait-il-qu-un-fusil-francais-possede-canon-belge

The whole history, very interesting! (in french) ;-)

Gunwolf

Perrhaps not JT but IT:

IT surmonté d'une couronne pour Isidor Tardieu contrôleur de 1939 à 1956 .

Gunwolf

A small misunderstood; the foto which I send isn´t taken from "my" gun. I have found this foto from internet for reason that it has same signum JT which "my" gun has. As I said before "my" gun has many times text "Paris-Roubaix" and St.Etienne stamps.

Could be possible but in my eyes it looks like JT without any star. I think foto below (not my gun) tells which IT signum with star looks like:



By the way; thanks for yours link Gunwolf.

But as I said before; it seems that "my" shotgun has been made in Belgien and sold in France. Maker is unknown but seller was G.Callens, Paris.

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20e%20f/a%20forgeron%20gb.htm

James-l - that is Alphonse Forgeron's trademark. What steel type is that Nickel steel?

Wolfgang:
Yes, there's a C. Modé Armurier, 9 Rue de Filles, St. Thomas, Paris thread around here somewhere that WildCattle fettered out some info or I may have read it elsewhere:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=354796&page=1

That controller's mark on the water table is AE surmounted by a star.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, its Nelson Nickel Steel.

Hum, I wonder it that is T. H. Nelson who had intimate knowledge of Chromium-Nickel Stainless Alloys? Possibly a new steel type for now.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

How does one determine value on these French guns? I have a Pidault 12g a SxS Sidelock or box lock with false plates that will be here in a few days. Research hasn't shown anything. I'll know more about it when it gets here.

The link provided by gunwolf seems to clear things up. Especially the one long post from neltir. From 1963-90, only French-made barrels used. Prior to that, frequently Belgian tubes. But of course it's not unusual to find that on French guns . . . or, for that matter, entire guns made and proofed in Belgium, but with the addresses of French dealers/"makers". Interesting.

The value is going to be a summation of the individual component for the most part. For Pidualt, chase C.H. Houllier -Blanchard à Paris, which was F.R.(?) Houllier-Blanchard & C.H.,Robert(Charles Robert) à Paris and later Houllier-Blanchard-Pidulat(arquebusier Houllier Blanchard Pidulat or Maison Houllier-Blanchard, Arquebusier à Paris, Ch. Pidault Successeur ) . For now I'm not sure of the time-line & who married whom.

"Charles Hypolite Houllier (1811-1871) was born into a family of Liège gunmakers. He moved to Paris, and in 1837 married Lucrèce Blanchard, daughter of a Parisian gunmaker. After the marriage the firm took the name Houllier-Blanchard and traded at 36 rue de Cléry. The firm was awarded medals at the Great Exhibition of 1851 and the International Exhibition of 1862, both in London, and the Paris Exposition Universelle of 1867"

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

http://www.thierrydemaigret.com/html/fic...mp;aff=5&r= - lifted this image
Maison Houllier-Blanchard, Arquebusier à Paris, Ch. Pidault Successeur

http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20francaise/artisans%20p%20q%20r/a%20pidault%20gb.htm

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,258708141,var,Paris-Houillier-Blanchard-Ch-Pidault-successeur-arquebusier--canonnier-rue-Royale-facture-1897-armurier,language,F.html
(copy & paste)

Looks like Ch. Pidault acquired it prior to 1897.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

That's pretty much been my position all along as per examples and I'm puzzled why you had to read it in French in order to believe. Post WWII many gunmaking centres were self sufficient but pre-WWII almost all could not get off the Belgian gunmaking teat.


E. Bernard


Gatimel a Marseille

Looks like the St. Etienne mechanics worked off most of the Belgian marks less "Non Pour Balle"

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Always good to get different viewpoints from different sources of information, Raimey. What I initially read in French was a description of another Callens gun, in which it was described as having St. Etienne barrels. Followed by the excellent post from neltir in Gunwolf's link, explaining when Callens used St. Etienne barrels and when they used Belgian barrels. I expect it disappoints you to find that some guns with French addresses on the barrels really were made in France, but . . . c'est la vie. Personally, I have absolutely no problem--having seen numerous examples--admitting that some guns with French addresses were made in Belgium. But not all of them . . . by a very long stretch.

I don't recall every saying all, but the gist was that the talent of the Belgian mechanics permeated all British, European & U.S. of A. gunmaking centres pre-WWII. Come on over to the dark side; join us.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Comparison of gunmaking centres of Liege & St. Etienne in 1866. I believe there is some truth in the report that continued for a time:





Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Nice to know, Raimey . . . but the guns discussed in this thread don't date from 1866. And the Belgians were far more involved with the gun trade outside their tiny country than were the French. Somewhere I've saved an article by the late John Brindle from Shooting Sportsman, in which he pointed out that French gunmakers never really launched a concerted effort to sell the guns they made anywhere other than France.

And your article also shows that the Belgians were into making "clunkers" (the very lowest quality), while the French were not.

Well, one has to commence somewhere & I am cognizant that the time frame is the 1860s, and while the Belgians are out producing the French tube makers some 10:1, I do not think the French gained any ground but instead lost ground up till WWI. The French could not make any enroads as a supplier to the gun trade as the Belgians cornered the market. Indeed they made price-point weapons, but that was what the client desired. So if the Belgians are making all these tubes, just who are all the consumers?

St. Etienne tube makers in 1862:

JAVELLE-MAGAUD & SON - St. Etienne(Loire)

RONCHARD-SIAUVE - St. Etienne(Loire)

DIDIER-DREVET - St. Etienne(Loire)

J. BLACHON - St. Etienne(Loire)

A. Bernard - Paris

L. Bernard - Paris

L.F. Devisme - Paris


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

If you're only supplying French gunmakers and not the world, how many tubes do you need to make? But good to see you point out a number of barrelmakers in St. Etienne in those ancient days. And somewhat later we get Jean Breuil, whose name is among those most commonly found on the barrels of St. Etienne guns. And today we have Verney-Carron, supplying tubes to a number of other makers.

A. Bernard - Paris

L. Bernard - Paris

L.F. Devisme - Paris

I neglected to copy the above. Info suggest that Alphonse Bernard had a shop in Liege, maybe also a patent(Damas allongé système Bernard-1854/1855), so he may have been a conduit for tubes sourced from Liege. To answer your question, the French tube makers only needed to supply say 50%-60% of France's gun barrel needs as the Belgians supplemented the rest.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

And Jean-Batiste Rivolier (1830-1907) et Fils à St. Etienne




Damas Alongé Système (Alphonse) Bernard as Raimey noted



Breuil-Glaize may have still been at it also

Thanks Drew for the addition. I don't see him as a major player circa 1860 so he may have been ramping up or just getting started. Being born in 1830 he should have been hanging out his gunmaking shingle in the mid to late 1850s.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I´m making new case for this french shotgun so it would be nice if someone could find any example picture of G.Callens traders label and publish it here.

Their label looks like this on a shotshell box:

http://www.naturabuy.fr/cartouches-anciennes-Callens-Mode-cal-12-item-1998771.html

Cheers,
Gunwolf

This one is also nice:

Callens & Modé

Cheers,
Gunwolf

You'd think a French maker would have a grander more impressive looking trade label that the two that Gunwolf found. After all, the French have never been known for having small egos .

This is a case label:

http://www.naturabuy.fr/Malette-cartouches-Callens-Mode-occasion-1-euro-item-300515.html

Cheers,
Gunwolf

Tried to lift an image of the trade-label but there was a loss in quality.



125 rue du Théâtre à Paris XVe, en Octobre 1961





Jacques Gaston workshop

But did find an interesting tid-bit and lifted images regarding Callens & Modé - Modé-Pirley from here:

http://chrisferon.free.fr/archives-photo...quebusier_2.php

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I find it too and thought, that it would be interesting for you! Had no time to share yet…

Cheers,
Wolfgfang

Like minds. It would be most interesting, & probably most informative, to attempt to ID all in the images but I do wonder what liquids are contained in the bottles on the upper shelf next to that Darne, or whatever it might be.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I had the same thought: Maybe accids for barrel browning - he mentioned it elsewhere on his site.

Cheers,
Wolfgang

Ah, a little more sleuthing provides the answers, huh? Possibly some stock finishing solution, which Highsmith referred to as tobacco juice. Well, browning for pattern welded tubes or the new fangled steel?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

He explains here:

http://chrisferon.free.fr/archives-photo...uebusier_26.php

Very interesting what he says about the difference between "Armurier" and "Arquebusier"…!!!

http://chrisferon.free.fr/articles-divers/arquebusier-armurier-definition.php

The whole site is an interesting source for connaisseurs, I think.

Cheers,
Wolfgang

Wolfgang: most astute point on noting his position on Armurier vs. Arquebusier. I really wanted to see a bicycle or some bicycle parts in the shop.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, have a look at this:

http://chrisferon.free.fr/articles-divers/darra-village-armuriers-libres.php

Unbelievable - live could be so easy…..!

Cheers,
Wolfgang

Thanks for foto of case label, Gunwolf !

amazing!

Here is some fotos of case which I made for bespoken shotgun: