was recently consigned verney carron #A16xx, a 16 gauge boxlock, 6 pound magic wand!
looks pre war, but not sure which one. any input re date of mfgr. would be appreciated.
an 10/1 will be here before we know it.
Ed - I don't believe there is any reliable information out there on V-C DOM based on serial numbers, as the company's historical records were destroyed by a flood. I have some pre-war V-C catalogs I picked up from Cornell. If you post some pics, I can see how it matches up with what is listed in the catalogs.
Is it a Helicobloc action?
Great guns - too bad there aren't more in circulation over here.
dover: top lever is engraved helicobloc.
redundant and frusrating for me to post pictures here.
will pm you when pictures are on the web...elsewhere.
thanks for your input.
did see one similar, about 20 years ago.
I believe the Helicobloc/Helice Grip etc guns first appeared shortly after WWI. I have a 1922 catalog that shows them, with a really great ad featuring WWI surviving ace of aces Rene Fonck having inscribed his photo to V-C and stating that "The birds fall like Krauts!" in reference to his Helice gun.
for pictures, please see gunbroker item #424502348.
stamp is hard to read. best I can figure is SHC9 and then IF underscored. does that mean anything to you?
Ed - I cannot match it to anything in 1922 catalog I have. My gun's SN started with a D and had 4 digits. I am fairly certain it was made in the 1950s, so that SN does not give much guidance on the DOM for this gun. I believe the double proofmarks indicate a "heavy" proof, which seems odd in light of the 2.5" chambers.
S.H. et Cie - Societe Heurtier et Compagnie - renown tube maker.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
raimey: yep, that it. thanks, ed
That may aide to date it. If the author is correct & if I read it correctly, Simon Heurtier founded S.H. & Cie in 1930 after the death of his brother, in Stéphanois/St. Etienne?
"La qualité HEURTIER est un Nom et un Renom de Référence dans la Canonnerie Stéphanoise et dans la fabrication d'Armes de Canons et de Chasses et ce depuis le XIX siècle. Puis de nouveau dès 1930 lorsque Simon HEURTIER fonda sa Société "S.H & Cie" suite au décès de son frère. La canonnerie Heurtier à disparue depuis comme beaucoup d'Armuriers Stéphanois mais les fabrications et Canonneries de qualités sont encore dans nos mains et pour notre plaisir et passion de la chasse."
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
A sidebar on the concern Clement & Gladiator Bicycle Boys(Garçons)(C. G & Cie):
Treble Trial Steel
"je crois savoir que le marquage C.G & cie émane de la société française de cycles fondée par Clément et Gladiator spécialisée dans les armes de guerre et de chasse au Pré St Germain en Seine St Denis ,76 grande Rue . Cette marque a été déposée en 1916 le 2 février et active jusqu'après 1947 . Ils utilisaient soitdes canons heurtier soit des canons Belges en acier spécial Treble trial Stell importé d'Autriche je crois me rappeler .Ces canons Belges étaient exportés par la fabrique Belge "The Liege United Arms C° LTD depuis 1923 et nommée par la suite en 1946 FAL et puis F:A:U:L pour fabrique d'armes de liege et fabrique d'armes unie de Liege qui près éprouvaient les canons destinés a l'export .Cette pratique était utilisée dans la période sombre des années 1939/45 et après suite l'occupation car la France manquait de produits armuriers."
Are those intertwined VC letters those of V-C & if so is that a trademark & what does it represent?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Your French translation is correct, Raimey. Per the author of that bit of text, it'd have to be a post-1930 gun.
Re the intertwined VC, that is a V-C trademark. It's shown on the first page of their 1922 catalog, albeit in a circle rather than exactly as it appears on the flats of that gun. Assume it stands for Verney-Carron. One of several trademarks they show on that page, the others being: VERCAR, Colonial (in script), Helice Grip, and HelicoBloc. All listed as registered trademarks.
Thanks Mr. Brown for the verification. It would seem that from the above one could extract or the take-away would be that if you have a double with the Simon Heurtier encircled S.H. & Cie stamp that there's a pretty good probability that the raw forgings were sourced from a Belgian tube maker. I'll have to see how many examples I can locate and how the numbers actually play out.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
another interesting thing about this gun is that it weighs just six pounds, with 27 1/2" tubes. so how did they do that i ask? by making the barrels paper thin? well, the barrels measure .045 seven inches down from the muzzles and .100 in front of the chambers. this is well within my gunsmiths standard for safe shooting. so, once again I ask: how did they do that and why cant we do that now?
Thanks Mr. Brown for the verification. It would seem that from the above one could extract or the take-away would be that if you have a double with the Simon Heurtier encircled S.H. & Cie stamp that there's a pretty good probability that the raw forgings were sourced from a Belgian tube maker. I'll have to see how many examples I can locate and how the numbers actually play out.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Interesting. In one of the photos, the barrels are clearly marked as S.H. & Cie--followed by St. Etienne. Wonder if they had an operation there as well as Liege.
First similar thread I noticed:
On the Helice Elite BTÉ SGDG toplever, does the Mono-Détente, BF in a rhombus, BTÉ SGDG describe the "stop" as we've come to know it?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Détente, referring to guns in French, usually means trigger. Is that by any chance a single trigger gun? My guess is that refers to a patent on a single trigger.
No, in this case of a French sporting weapon it wouldn't refer to the triggers as there are two:
Considering the forced translation of Détente(relax, etc.) and it is applied to the toplever, it would be centered around the state of it. I think it to be akin to a ball detent, either in a relaxed state or engaged.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey,
is it possible, that the first trigger functions for both barrels?
MONO-DETENTE clearly means single trigger, I think.
Regards,
Gunwolf
Seems to me it'd be odd to use "détente" for anything but trigger, since that's its common usage as a French gun term. One French shotgun book I have ("Les Armes de Chasse a Canon Lisse", or "Smooth Bore Hunting Guns"), includes a list of common gun terms. For détente:
"Small, curved metal part that the finger pushes to fire the gun." No secondary usage given.
I really don't think the back trigger is fake? The toplever stop seems to pivot unlike others I have seen.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Aha . . . Dijon. Must be an old usage, going back to the days of the Dukes of Burgundy, when those sleazy Burgundians were in league with the perfidious English.
Seriously . . . there's always a first time, but I've never seen "détente" used in reference to anything but triggers in "gun French".
All right, let's get back to 1st principles & see what upon we can agree. Anyone against equating BF to Berthon Fréres for the Bté SGDG », abréviation de (Breveté)Sans Garantie Du Gouvernement:
http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20francaise/artisans%20a%20b/a%20berthon%20freres%20fr.htmKind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Trademarks -
Perfecta - April 26th, 1912
Gallia & Lorraine - June 11th, 1912
French Patents Nr. 21760 & Nr. 552254
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey, which photos show the information in your most recent post, other than "Gallia"? I do agree that the top lever stop looks to be unique.
My last post was to show the trademark Gallia on the subject sporting weapon & just move other trademark info on BF to DGS.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Ky Jon's Helice Elite BTÉ SGDG, BF in a rhombus on water-table, with Canon Gallia & Acier Force - Berthon Fréres(Chometon)
(Ml - BLOC)
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Have never seen "Force" following acier on a French gun previously, but then they seem to have used all sorts of adjectives to describe barrel steel. Also indicated as being of superior quality.
Raimey, is that a 2nd St Etienne proofmark I see on the barrels, far left of your photo? So, double proof (or maybe more)?
Brown:
What's your take on the Ml Bloc & the Dog riding the Lion, Cat on a Horse or whatever it is?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
A listing I ran across:
Loire, commune de Saint Etienne,
BALP Joseph (armurier),
J.P. BASTEDE (ingénieur constructeur),
BAYLE KLEIN et SCHMITT (fabricant de pièces d'armes),
BEAUFILS François (plombier zingueur),
BEAUREGARD Antoine (fabricant de jantes poulies obus),
BEDEL et compagnie (aciéries),
BERAUD et FONTVIEILLE (constructeurs),
L. BERGERON (fabricant d'armes),
BERTHON Antoine (fabricant d'armes),
BERTHON Frères (fabricants de pièces d'armes),
L. et G. BERTRAND Frères (fournisseur d'artillerie),
BLACHER Frères (tourneurs à façon),
BLANC Claudius (tourneur),
F. BLANC et compagnie (maître de forges),
BLANC-BUISSON et compagnie (mécanicien),
BLONDEAU Auguste (fabricant d'armes). - 1914-1918
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Likely demi-bloc? Don't know about the strange trademark.
