This is described as having "stunning case colors"...yeeesh...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=445550828

Yeah, I bet the guy who had it done was "stunned" the first time he saw it.

It's proof that Cold Blue and a Torch can be dangerous weapons in the wrong hands..I blew up the pics, it looks like whoever did it didn't even bother to remove the stock first. The finish looks crazed where the torch heated up the wood...

I looked for ed's customary fig leaf in the pictures but didn't see it.

Here's an example of that.


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=445753903

The seller is a dealer. He should know better. This is fraud pure and simple. I wish a few of these guys would get prosecuted. Then perhaps the practice would be curtailed.

looks pretty nice to me...

no fraud here that i see...

this gun is a batavia leader, which is as i recall is a product of the crescent company, who bought the baker name when it was offered for sale? case colors look to good to be original, but they could be in fact original, not that it means that much with crescent made guns.

oh, and seller has over 9000 feedbacks on gunbroker. how many feedbacks do some of you unknowns out there have anywhere?

Ed,

I make it a point to avoid jumping on the "Ed-the-Torch-Wielding-Douchebag" bandwagon. You're making that very difficult. Why would you even want to post on this thread?

No, ED. Folsom bought Baker. Baker still made the guns, not Crescent, which was also owned by Folsom.

I can't enlarge the photos, and I'm not sure what an original Baker of this era should look like, but my first impression is that it's not a bad gun. The case color doesn't look like a torch job and the wood looks pretty good too. I might have to agree with Ed on this one.
terc

To be fair DrBob, there are plenty of dealers that have no experience with older doubles, nor care to gain any knowledge.
95% of their business is new guns or typical used stuff.
It's just another gun to be passed on at a profit.
They also happen to be the source of some good buys.
That said.... beware of guns with the barrel lump case colored.

Case coloring and being badly re-done aside, at least it's a true auction starting at .01. There are examples on GB where the seller starts out a 2x the value of the gun for the opening bid, or there is a reserve (which I don't care to fool with) and the firearms sit there an languish for months on end. This one will sell for sure at the end to the high bidder. All auctions should start at .01 or $1 and see where it ends. Then you will get a true market value. I'm just glad for the knowledge here I have gleaned over the years to learn what is a good solid double and one that's been butchered.

I agree Red, this dealer moves his stuff.
Rolls the dice and gets what he gets.
Pretty rare among the online auction dealers....
much rarer than the gun itself.

If it stays low enough, then it would be worth the time for a hobbiest to restore it. I've picked up three Batavia Leaders that were worth it..Usually Gunbroker is where 10% guns are offered at 70%+ prices..Although I have bought several restoration guns that were started at a reasonable price..

No way that that is original, or properly redone case coloring..

Baker photos..

http://www.bakercollectors.com/index.php...eenres=1366-768

http://www.bakercollectors.com/index.php...eenres=1366-768

Baker Gun & Forging Batavia



Baker Gun Co./ Folsom Batavia Leader



I believe the case colors on the OP gun are cyanide rather than torch, but could be wrong. Either way, Ed knows the colors in no way reproduce the original.

This Richland has cyanide on the action body and torch colors on the sideplate

Ken,

Thanks for posting the second Batavia Leader pic link. As it's my gun, I was going to post the link before I realized you had already done it.

Marcus

Wonderful gun. I hope to be able to reproduce the case coloring, I'm nearly set up for it. I've got a set of BL twist barrels that I'm almost finished with. Are your barrels steel? It"s hard to tell from the pics. I trust that yours is a Folsom era gun?

Regards
Ken

I have collected and worked on vintage American double's for 45 years. What ever it is on the receiver it is not original to the gun. Terry

That's something I didn't know, Ken. I have read and also assumed that there had been a drop in quality after the Folsom acquisition. Would you disagree with that statement? Same maker, same quality? I guess if there was a drop in quality then it would have been a result of Folsom trying to reduce expenses at Baker. No idea if that was the case.

I don't know much at all about Baker's, and I'm definitely not an expert at identifying every torch job. I usually look for circles and purples. I had also seen that particular auction. Reason I didn't follow it was that the colors did look funny, but I didn't know if they were original or not. I'd like to find a nice Baker 16 or 20. Only reason I didn't follow that auction is because I thought the colors were just down right ugly, original or not. 100% that's an ugly gun.

Love those chain damascus barrels. I haven't yet found a gun with those to add to my collection, but I'm always on the look out. I'd proudly own either of those two Bakers above.

Here's the history, right off the Baker Collector's site.

http://www.bakercollectors.com/

History of the Baker Guns


The Baker evolution is complicated and our first word of the gunmaker started with the W.H. Baker doing gunsmith work in Greene, N. Y. in 1859. 1860 finds W. H. Baker in Marathon producing a variety of guns. In 1867 Baker is in Lisle, N.Y. making muzzle loaders, conversions, two and three barreled breechloaders, all of which were marked W. H. Baker until 1877. Then W.H. Baker & Co. was formed in Syracuse, and it was financed by L. C. Smith and his brother Leroy. This partnership lasted 1877-1880. Baker eventually went to Ithaca, N.Y. in 1883, and along with others in Ithaca established the Ithaca Gun Co. Leroy H. Smith soon followed from Syracuse.

Baker left Ithaca early 1887 and returned to Syracuse to work with his brother Dr. Ellis Baker at the Syracuse Forging Co., which soon became the Syracuse Forging & Gun Co. They manufactured a hammer gun which was called the "New Baker." After the factory in Syracuse burned in the summer of 1888, they moved to Batavia and later became the Baker Gun & Forging Co. At the time of the move W.H. Baker was ill with TB and/or silicosis and they brought in Frank A. Hollenbeck as plant superintendent 1890-1892. W.H. died Sept. 10, 1889. Frank Hollenbeck had three patents granted while he was in Batavia, and two were assigned to Baker Gun & Forging; October 13, 1891 and August 23, 1892 Nos. 461182 and 481327. Several different guns owe part of their designs to Frank A. Hollenbeck - Baker, Syracuse Arms Co., Baltimore Arms Co., Hollenbeck Gun Co., Royal Gun Co., and The Three Barrel Gun Co. Frank had earlier worked with Baker in Lisle, NY, and later with Baker and L.C. Smith in Syracuse.

Baker grades changed over the years, and the A and B grades were not marked on the frame after about 1896. Early Paragons and higher grades were usually not grade marked until about 1906; 'PKE' for Paragon Krupp Ejector. Later A and B grades in the 6000 range showed grade markings again. T, D, and S marks may be found on the hook indicating the barrel material; the meaning of 'H' sometimes stamped on the barrel flats is uncertain.

Early Baker Gun & Forging guns included the B grade with "London Twist" barrels, the A grade with "Fine Damascus", and the Paragon Grade with more extensive engraving, nicer wood, and finer Damascus barrels. About 1897, the $100 Pigeon Gun was added which was essentially a Paragon but with pigeons in the engraving and steel barrels. The Batavia 'C' grade was a hammerless boxlock, and the first of the Batavia grades. Later, the Paragon with Damascus barrels was called the P grade, with Krupp steel barrels the N grade, an even nicer Trap Gun was called the L grade. The Expert and De Luxe grades were added, too.

About 1906 the Batavia Special with "[censored]-tensile" steel, S with "Fluid-Tempered" steel barrels [eventually replacing the B Grade], and R (eventually replacing the A grade) with Krupp or Damascus steel barrels were introduced. R Grade engraving changed to a single dog looking up at a single bird on each side. A high grade trap gun with "Holland Fluid Steel" and special engraving was also offered.

The Paragon Grade Model 1909 and a Baker Single Barrel Trap were introduced in 1909.

About 1915, the Baker bolting system was redesigned for the Paragon and higher grades to use a Greener style round cross bolt. The 1915 Dealers Price Schedule lists barrel lengths of 26-, 28-, 30-, and 32-inch for the Black Beauty ($18.85), Black Beauty Special ($34.85), Paragon ($60), Paragon-Ejector ($75), Expert ($137.50) and De Luxe ($260).

The first Baker hammerless boxlock, referred to as the C Grade, was made by Baker for Montgomery Ward in 1895, with Ward's name on the rib. It was offered by Baker about two years later with the Batavia name. Baker also produced 'trade named' guns under "New Era Gun Works" and "Clark's Imperial Omaha, Neb.", and a number of others. Most of these were sourced from the Batavia line.

Baker Gun & Forging Co. added a lower priced line of sidelocks called Batavia guns in 1903. There were several variations of the Batavia line in the 1909 "The Baker Gunner": the Batavia Leader with twist barrels at $25, the Batavia Special with steel barrels at $21.75, the Batavia Damascus at $28, the Batavia Brush with 26-inch Twist barrels and a straight-grip stock at $24, the Batavia Ejector with steel barrels at $35 and with Damascus barrels for $37.50. To reduce costs the Batavia line did not have the "firing pin block safety" or the "draw block" which passes transversely through the barrel lug and mates into recesses in the frame. The sidelock Black Beauty replaced the Batavia Special, Leader, and Damascus guns about 1916.

The Batavia Leader number series were from 75,000 to about 106,000; including the Batavia Brush in the late part of the series. There were also Batavia Leaders late in the Baker Gun and Forging production numbered in the non-exclusive 49,000-51,000 range. Batavia Specials were numbered in the 150,000 to 171,000 range exclusively. There are a small number of exceptions with guns in the 39,000 48,000 range which were probably finished late with whatever unused receivers, etc were available.

When Baker Gun & Forging sold their gun business to H.& D. Folsom in 1919, the guns were marked Baker Gun Co., a 20 gauge gun was offered, and the Batavia Leader was reintroduced as a steel barrel gun similar to the old Batavia Special. A bit of engraving was added to the Black Beauty and it was renamed the Black Beauty Special. Grades for the Folsom era Baker Guns were the Batavia Leader, Black Beauty Special, Paragon, Expert, and De Luxe. Folsom era catalogues listed the Black Beauty Special for $62 or $77 with ejectors, the Paragon Grade for $100 or $115 with ejectors, the Expert Grade for $215 and the De Luxe Grade for $385. In the fall of 1928, Folsom Baker magazine ads listed a 410 bore Batavia Leader, but it is unclear if any were actually manufactured. Folsom era Bakers usually have an F before or after the serial numbers 1- about 14,000. Most guns have a reinforcing wedge between the forearm loop and the flats.

H & D Folsom Arms Co. catalogs No. 23, 25, and 31 (1929-1930) only list the Batavia Leader and Black Beauty Special. Catalog No. 40 dated May 1932 has no Baker Guns.

Baker Gun Co. was closed in 1930, 41 years after the death of W.H. Baker, and the factory was converted to the manufacture of automobile parts. About 150,000 Baker guns were produced prior to the Folsom take-over; Folsom production numbers do not exist.

All my Baker's are pre-Folsom guns. My Hammer gun has the cross piece that made the Baker actions so strong, a feature eliminated in the Batavia guns. I'm not sure if this feature was present in the higher-grade Folsom era guns, hopefully one of our Baker experts on the board will provide the answer. As to Folsom-era quality, perhaps they'll be able to address that as well.

My reading of the history concludes that the same Baker factory made all the Baker guns, it was not closed down when Folsom bought Baker, nor was production shifted to the Crescent factory. I seem to recall that it was Carder that equated Bakers to Crescent, that's a common answer to inquiries about Bakers on the internet and is probably responsible for Bakers being excellent values (especially Batavia guns) today..Personally, I find Batavia Leaders to be really nice shooting guns, especially with 6500psi/1 oz/1000fps loads. They make a nice starter Vintage shooter..

Regards
Ken

I was going over the Baker website, and found the passage that stated that Folsom moved production to Norwich. (history of W.H. Baker section) Sooo, perhaps it is true that the later Folsom era guns were made in the Crescent factory?. It doesn't seem possible since Crescent was merged with N.R. Davis around 1929, yet Bakers were made until around 1930. I'm betting on separate factories, but the question is when and where? I haven't found any references to Folsom selling Baker to anyone. I'm afraid that this is as far as my knowledge extends, so hopefully we'll get a clarification from an expert.

Thanks Ken. Yes, it's a Folsom gun with fluid steel barrels. The lousy pics I took don't do the colors or the overall condition justice. Aside from a little wear to the bluing near the breech, it looks as if it just came from the factory. As it's a few hundred numbers over 14,000, I've wondered how near to the end of production it was made.

Marcus

I agree with Drew about the cyanide colors.

Batavia area newspaper article:

http://www.thedailynewsonline.com/blogs/...19bb2963f4.html

Pertinent comments on production of guns at Batavia:

During these years, the gun-making part of the operation was gradually phased out and in 1919, it was sold to the D.H. Folsom Company of Meriden, Conn. (which merged with the Crescent Firearms Company).
The era of the Baker gun in Batavia had ended.
The Batavia factory was reorganized and turned exclusively to the manufacture of automobile parts. Daniel W. Tomlinson was named company president.

Mark Ret, the Folsom Leaders were made between 1919 and 1929. From a list of serial numbers observed over the years, the highest serial no. is in the 17,000 range. The serial numbers started with 1, or near so, so one might interpolate to get an idea of production year.

Daryl,

Do you happen to know if the Folsom guns were made in the Crescent plant? Did they just move the mfg. line to the plant? Have you heard of any quality differences for the Folsom era guns?

Regards
Ken

Ken, the quality of the Folsom guns , although good, was somewhat below the quality of Baker Gun and Forging Co. I believe that the Folsom Bakers were made in Norwich in the Crescent [owned by Folsom] factory. As I recall, in my files I have some photos of the Norwich operation with some workers who moved there from Batavia. I believe some of the gun machinery from Batavia was moved to Norwich, too. Some of the very latest Folsom guns were marked Norwich, while the majority were not.

Thanks Daryl.

What I seem to recall having read in the past was that Baker only sold the gunmaking part of the company. This was moved to the Crescent factory where some models were made. The original company continued in buisness making forgings for the Auto industry. Don't recall for certain what name they operated under, whether or not they continued use of the Baker name. I have not personally researched any of this, but is just info I have seen from what I took as reliable sources at the time. This is the first time I had ever heard that the gun production continued at the Baker factory, or that Folsom had anything to do with the auto parts Forging Co.

Miller, Folsom was a giant company that owned Crescent since the mid 1890s, as I recall. Folsom had no equity in Baker Gun and Forging Co., somewhat later renamed Batavia Metal Products. Did any of the posts above hint that Folsom was involved in the Forging company left after selling off the gunmaking business to Folsom ?

Let's see if I can consolidate the information from the thread as it stands.

Baker Gun & Forging produced Baker guns in Batavia from 1889-1919.

Baker Gun & Forging sold the gunmaking operation to Folsom approx 1919.

Baker Gun & Forging changed to Batavia Metal Products, which made auto parts in Batavia.

Folsom moved gun production from Batavia, including some equipment and personnel, to the Crescent plant in Norwich. They continued to make Baker models, marked Baker Gun Co. Addition of the letter "F" to the serial number indicates a Norwich, Folsom produced gun. Some guns were also marked "Norwich" as well. There may have been some changes in quality. Approx. 17,000 Norwich Folsom guns were produced, with the serial number range being 1-17,000.

Production of Baker guns ceased by 1930, about the time Crescent merged with Davis, certainly by the time Savage-Stevens bought Crescent-Davis.

Baker guns are not, and never were, "Crescent" shotguns, a common misconception found on the internet.

Ken, that's pretty good. A couple of things could be added for clarity.

I think Batavia Metal Products , after the gunmaking business sale, made things in addition to auto parts.

Folsom made Bakers tend to be of lesser finish quality as the years went on.

I am not sure that the Crescent / Davis relationship was a merger or if there was a purchase. That's not really important to the Baker guns, I guess.

Ads and catalogs for the Folsom Bakers seem to carry a New York Address, which probably relates to a Folsom company address.

Thanks Daryl. I had not realized production had run that high.

Marcus

Just to clarify, mostly via Researcher, and more here
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1OxZo5Tkvx2G8eYf747QR9B5RJdN6Siu5JGIhfguSXXQ

The N.R. Davis Arms Co. was located in Assonet, MA starting in 1853 and from 1917 to 1930 operated under the name Davis-Warner Arms Corp., Brooklyn, NY and Norwich, CT.

J. Stevens Arms (owned by Savage Arms Corp. since 1920) purchased Davis-Warner in 1930 and a Stevens memo dated December 15, 1930 announced the purchase from H&D Folsom Arms Company of the assets of Crescent Fire Arms Company of Norwich, Connecticut. The Connecticut Industrial Census done in 1930 listed 100 Crescent employees. The assets of Crescent were to be merged with those of Davis-Warner Arms Corporation and that the newly formed firm would be known as The Crescent-Davis Arms Corporation, Norwich, Conn.
Catalogs thereafter carried the statement:
“Today’s Greatest Value Among Popular Priced Guns”

On November 4, 1935, an order of dissolution was filed with the New York Secretary of State and the remains were moved to the J. Stevens Arms Co. plant in Chicopee Falls, MA. After the move, Stevens continued to manufacture a few models of Crescent-Davis shotguns until 1943.

In 1954 Folsom was purchased by Universal Tackle and Sporting Goods Co.

So back to the gun at hand - cyanide colored or someone used a torch? I don't think that gun looks like the typical torch jobs I've seen, but my sample size is probably among the smallest on the forum.

This is more along the lines of how I think a torch job looks:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=446084116

Not my auction, but you have to love the description. Amazing how many FFL's know absolutely zilch about vintage guns. A Fulton?

Jawjadawg,

Did you just pick up a Parker G?

Yup. That was me. Did I outbid you?

The Folsom Baker colors were very dark and colorfully mottled. The case colors seemed to last very well, judging from all of the Folsom Leaders I have seen. The gun in question has case colors not close to the original guns.

Nope, but it was very tempting....Got one already, plus a disassembled PH project gun...If it'd been a D, it would have been a "Battle Royale"....Oh, congrats, it looks like a nice gun, and a good deal.

Dayrl,

Would a reasonable comparison be to say that the Folsom colors were similar to Parker colors? With more blues? This is opposed to Crescent, or even LC Smith colors that were brighter and with more browns and hints of red?

Ken, if I don't have some of the examples of Folsom case colors on my website, send me an email and I'll send you some pics of the Folsom colors. As an aside, the Parker colors and process changed over the years. My email is in my profile.

Daryl,

Marcus has the Folsom gun that's featured on your site. The pic is a little dark, but to me I looks like it has darker colors and more blues.

I can't help but wonder what part of the case coloring process was changed when Folsom began their production. It doesn't (at least to me) appear that they simply switched over to the same process used on Crescent guns. But, the coloring does appear different than the Batavia produced guns..

It may be an issue of the steel used, depending on where Folsom got their forgings..

So many variables, if the forgings were made from the same steel and by the same people who made the Crescent parts, and then were colored by the same process, one would think that they'd look somewhat similar. But, this does not appear to be the case..One wonders if Folsom was able to still source the forgings from Batavia..

Ken, I think the Folsom process was different than the Baker Gun and Forging process. Noting that the Folsom guns were made to a lower price market, the color case hardening must have followed that thought. I will say, as I have noted often, the Folsom guns color case hardening, whatever it's process, was unusually durable. So many Folsom guns with still bright colors.

Hmmm, that would possibly indicate a greater depth of the hardening. Possibly a higher temperature and/or a longer length of time. Medium manipulation would affect the colors, and shielding could produce a more even distribution of the color..All at the control of the "Meister" at the Crescent plant. Too bad there's little documentation of the actual processes left..

Daryl;

At the time this was posted Ken still was still stating that Folsom Bakers were being built in the Batavia factory. This reads to me that it was saying that either Folsom or Someone converted the factory to make Auto Parts after Folsom ceased having Baker Shotguns made there in that Batavia plant. This was what I was responding to as I did not feel this was the Facts. This was a post or so prior to mine.

2-piper,

I think you were posting this at the time I was reading Daryl's W H Baker history section that enabled me to correct my false assumption...By the time I posted my correction, you had already posted yours..

Now, since I actually have a professional association with an industrial heat treatment company with it's own lab, I going to have to keep my eyes open for a Folsom gun. Then I'll take both a Batavia and a Folsom gun in and see how they measure up according to the Rockwell hardness scale...

Ken;
I think you are right, it was all a matter of timing. Matter of fact I think Daryl was posting his while I was slowly 2-finger typing mine in. I read his right after I had posted.
What type of equipment do you use to check the hardness of a case hardened surface. In the machine shop I worked in we mostly checked Rockwell C scales & I don't believe the equipment we used would give an accurate reading or a case hardened surface.
No doubt though there is far more sophisticated equipment than we had although it was accurate on through hardened heat treated steel.

The company I'm associated with has some uber-technical testing equipment that they bought as surplus from NASA. I'm not an engineer, so I can't tell you exactly what it is. When I get around to doing the tests (on other makes as well as Bakers) I'll be sure and post the details. I'm very interested in this, as it has direct application to my own artisan case coloring efforts. I've got some pretty screwy ideas about how to manipulate some of the variables in order to recreate patterns. We'll see...

sold for over a grand...time to fire up the torch again?

ah luv thu smell ov burnin receiver metal in da mornin...

Stop you teasing, Ed! (Although you provided first laugh of the day.)

Ed,

You should teach a class on it. Personally, if you described a gun as being "Superficially Recolored for Aesthetic Purposes" rather that attempting to represent it as "Restored", I'd have no problem with it. Then, a purchaser can make an informed decision.

Ken

Comrade King, you never fail to deliver.

Of course you find the "Willful Perpetration of Fraud" to be a "Laugh". No doubt you found "You Can Keep Your Doctor" to be a "Laugh" as well.

It sounds like the "Story of Your Life".

Care to step into anything else today?

Pretty sure this is incorrect. Folsom had nothing to do with Meriden, Connecticut and there is a great deal of confusion between Meriden Fire Arms Co. and Crescent which was located in Norwich, CT

You are correct Joe. And Folsom acquired Crescent in 1893.