Been offered a REMINGTON Model 17, 20 GA. of course, full choke with a solid rib as part of a trade for a gun I have. It is almost mint metal wise but the wood has been cut, a nasty white line pad added and wood finish is fairly worn. Any issues with them that I need to know about? Wear problems or mechanical issues to look for.
Might pick it up and restock it into a nice backup dove gun. Might pick it up and just add it to the pile. I like old pumps. They send me back to my youth when the ability to pump a gun was a skill every boy wanted to master. My first shotgun was a Winchester Model 12 in 28 ga. with a case of shells as my Christmas present when I was 13. A very good year it was.
No issues I know of, it and it's knock off the Ithaca 37 are top tier pumps.
There seems to be legions of fans, here and elsewhere, of the M17. A hundred-year old JMB design that still has progeny in production. I would think that a solid-rib gun with almost-mint metal work would be pretty desirable trade-fodder.
One difference between the M17 and M37 is that Ithaca added an extractor to the top of the bolt. Early Ithacas in some of the the early runs of the first year didn't have the top extractor.
Whether there were problems without the extractor on top, I dunno, but Ithaca didn't make the 20 gauge in the first year, only 12 gauges. Despite the cut stock, the gun you are considering is a desirable one and would make a fine dove gun. In that the stock has been cut, I wouldn't hesitate opening up the barrel should you desire.
Do you still have the 28 gauge M12 or do you kick yourself in the butt for not having it?
As you no doubt know, that one is at the top of the heap in both value and desirability.
Knock off of the Ithaca? Hardly. If Ithaca hadn't had to wait for Remington's patent rights to expire, it would have been the Ithaca Model 35.
Yes. Not a knock off at all. Browning sold the design to Remington first and then ithaca made the design once Remington stopped and the patents expired.
They are very similar to the 37s with some minor differences here and there. The bolt only has one extractor on it, as compared to ithaca's two.
I have a model 17 myself and it operates and shoots nicely.
Ithaca Model 33. Browning's patent expired in '33, but there were some J.D. Pedersen patents for improvements on the M17 existing until late '36. When all patents were gone, Ithaca started up sales.
Geez, there are HUGE issues with a model 17-I can't believe these guys didn't let you in on them.
First off, they didn't build enough of them, making them hard to shop for. You only find one or two beat up examples when your gun fund heals up enough to consider one.
The other thing, once people have one or three in their collection, they are loath to give them up. They hang onto those old guns for, like, 50 or 60 years, and you have to wait until they are dead until you get a shot at buying their model 17. What kind of gun do people want to hang onto for so long?
Like I said, these are big problems, so, when your trade gun comes along, you might just want to PM me here, and I'll take the thing off your hands.
Shouldn't be worth much.
Best,
Ted
You'll find the 17 to be the smoothest operating pump ever built. And they seem to have a lot of hand fitting of internal parts. The rib and barrel are one piece machined from a single blank. The metal is all rust blued. If possible I'd try to add a wood butt extension and keep the original.
I think a couple guys might be misreading postoak -- the way I read it, he's calling the 37 a knockoff of the 17.
You'll find the 17 to be the smoothest operating pump ever built. And they seem to have a lot of hand fitting and fitting of internal parts. The rib and barrel are one piece machined from a single blank. The metal is all rust blued. If possible I'd try to add a wood butt extension and keep the original.
Joe, if it's anything like its successor the M37, I believe the solid rib is soldered to the barrel which withstands rust bluing technique, but not hot bluing as some have discovered. Gil
From the introduction of the Remington Autoloading Shotgun in 1905 until 1949 with the introduction of the Model 11-48 and "Sportsman" 48, Remington ribs on their pumps and autoloaders were milled integral with the barrel.
To my eyes, and I was raised by a Father who despised all bottom dumper pump guns, the Remington Model 17 looks "right" while the Ithaca Model 37 with its cheaper to Machine flat-sided receiver has always looked cheap. You can cover it with $2000 of Bill McGraw engraving and it still doesn't look as nice and graceful as a Remington Model 17.
Well thanks for the advise. I'll pull the trigger if he does on the trade. As to what to do with the stock I will leave the old stock as is and put a new one on that fits me, keeping the old one for the next owner after I am done. I see no problem doing that as my new stock can easily be removed and the gun restored to condition just as I found it. Chokes will be left as is as well. I will adjust my loads to do what I want. No point in reaming out every gun I have just in case I need them for close work.
And to those who wonder about my 28 Model 12 I still have it and will pass it onto my middle son. Of all my kids he likes shooting and hunting the most and I like to think he will keep it in the family to pass along. I strongly suspect my father figured I would grow tired of guns or pumping them at least and he would have taken over the 28 as his quail gun. Sorry Dad, that did not work out too well for you.
From the introduction of the Remington Autoloading Shotgun in 1905 until 1949 with the introduction of the Model 11-48 and "Sportsman" 48, Remington ribs on their pumps and autoloaders were milled integral with the barrel.
Good to know. Therein lies another difference between the M17 and M37R. The Upper Sandusky M37 vent rib barrels have a removable rib with sits atop machined stanchions integral with the barrel.
Jon, good to hear that you still have the M12 28 gauge. As you may know the rarity of that gun has spawned counterfeit versions.
Gil
Outers' Recreation published a 100 page booklet by Capt. E.C. Crossman in 1923, titled Gun and Rifle Facts, For the Novice and the Expert. In this booklet the good Captain has high praise for the Remington 20-gauge pump, because it is made for 2 3/4 inch shells and because it is offered in 26-, 28-, 30- and 32-inch barrel lengths, while that 20-gauge pump by the other guys is only available 25- to 28-inch barrel lengths and is only made for 2 1/2 inch 20-gauge shells.
I will resist the urge to fill this reply up with pictures, but I have had a fondness for Remington 17s for about 15 years now, maybe a little longer. I've collected adds, manuals, parts and currently have 5 of them, though one is a parts gun. I have had a dozen over the years, to include a pristine first year three digit gun that now resides in California with another collector. I have another 1921 UMC 17 still, and a 1927,1928,1931 and 1933. I just recently picked up a numbered 2 barrel set gun with both barrels being solid ribs. It's got some oddities about it but I had to have it.
As mentioned the ribs were machined into the barrels, not added on. They also were designed for the 20ga shell and are a bit thinner than a 37 as the 20ga 37 is just a "short" 12ga frame (all gauges of 37s are the same width to facilitate parts interchanging). The distance between the barrel and the magazine is also less making the 17 slightly more svelte.
What Ithaca did was try to take out as much hand work in the design as possible to maximize profit. Don't get me wrong, this was a very significant task and accomplishment. I do think something was lost in the process though.
The biggest downside is many of them were cut for "kids" guns, and even most of the uncut ones had 13 3/4" LOP. I've found an extreme difference in stocks outside of the standard plain stock and ringtail forends, which tend to be close in demension from year to year. One I have is very modern demensions with only about 2 1/4" drop and 14 1/4" LOP uncut.
These are uncommon but I'have examined close to half a dozen over the years. While there were more parts and a mano labor in their construction in terms of handling these are not as good as 20ga Wingmaster Upland Special with 23" VR barrel and Rem-choke tubes.
You'll find the 17 to be the smoothest operating pump ever built. And they seem to have a lot of hand fitting and fitting of internal parts. The rib and barrel are one piece machined from a single blank. The metal is all rust blued. If possible I'd try to add a wood butt extension and keep the original.
I have had: M12s, Wingmasters, 31s, 37s and lone 500. From those a minty 20ga Ithaca 37 was smoothest pump I have ever used. That was one from late 70s made during time when they put spurs on carrier prongs. When worked it left like there was some king of pump assist mechanism. Never experienced action like that before or since.
These are uncommon but I'have examined close to half a dozen over the years. While there were more parts and a mano labor in their construction in terms of handling these are not as good as 20ga Wingmaster Upland Special with 23" VR barrel and Rem-choke tubes.
I had one of the original 20 ga. 870 Special Field with the 21" barrels (I think BPSs are the Upland Specials) and its handling didn't feel particularly good to me. Maybe the 23" barrel guns were better.
Jay
You'll find the 17 to be the smoothest operating pump ever built. And they seem to have a lot of hand fitting and fitting of internal parts. The rib and barrel are one piece machined from a single blank. The metal is all rust blued. If possible I'd try to add a wood butt extension and keep the original.
Wha??- I have a 1940 Model 12 field grade 28 gauge with a factory solid matted ribbed 28" barrel choked WS-2-- I'd like to have a flat of RST 28 gauge No. 8 shotshells for everytime I have had the same "myth" about the Model 12 solid ribs- it would be a machinist's nightmare to mill out a true cylindrical barrel with rib from a blank of nickel or nickel-chrome-moly steel--the M37 Ithacas and the Model 31 Remingtons and the Model 12's like 3 of mine (including the 28 gauge) all had their solid matted ribs soldered in place in a jig and fixture device--then rust-blued. I used to hunt preserve pheasants with a local peat farmer- who became a millionaire (but never dressed or acted like, say- Donald Trump) He could afford a Boss or a Purdey like I can afford a cup of coffee at McDonald's- yet he shot a 20 gauge M17 Remington with a solid rib and mod. choke for everything that had wings and flew in front of a pointing dog-- You couldn't write him a check big enough to get that M17 out of his big hands either-
Tim, as far as I’m concerned you can’t post enough of your M-17 memorabilia. Back in September I posted photos in another M17 thread with a couple of guns including the M17 you put me on and a ’39 M37 with hand chased engraving. Since then I picked up this ’42 20 gauge 37R. According to Walt’s book, about 2200 37R’s were made in 1941 and the first quarter of 1942. This number was shared among 12, 16 and 20 gauges. War production ended civilian weapons which resumed in 1946. A few of the post war guns utilized the hand-checkered forend, but transitioned to the ringed forend quickly throughout the production of the 37R. A lot of handwork was involved in the production of the Remington and Ithaca even in these standard grade guns.
Close-up of M37R’s rib and hand checkered forend
When right gun comes along I am ready to but it>>>
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This one was made ca. 1942. Government stampings in upper left corner of receiver made it interesting enough for me to buy it.
I love Ithaca 37s but there is just something special about a 17.
I think a couple guys might be misreading postoak -- the way I read it, he's calling the 37 a knockoff of the 17.
You are correct Sir, not exactly a copy, some improvements and simplifications, a knock off.
Nice! What a collection! Color me jealous
Tim, as far as I’m concerned you can’t post enough of your M-17 memorabilia. Back in September I posted photos in another M17 thread with a couple of guns including the M17 you put me on and a ’39 M37 with hand chased engraving. Since then I picked up this ’42 20 gauge 37R. According to Walt’s book, about 2200 37R’s were made in 1941 and the first quarter of 1942. This number was shared among 12, 16 and 20 gauges. War production ended civilian weapons which resumed in 1946. A few of the post war guns utilized the hand-checkered forend, but transitioned to the ringed forend quickly throughout the production of the 37R. A lot of handwork was involved in the production of the Remington and Ithaca even in these standard grade guns.
Close-up of M37R’s rib and hand checkered forend
All shooters, the bottom one I've had for ten years or so and I've shot more upland game with it than any other shotgun I own. It has a post-war Polychoke and the other gun with a Polychoke is a pre-war device with an Ivory bead.
This was when I was modifying the stock on the one gun, I had never extended a cut stock before and wanted a semi-pistol so I shaved a little, then shot it for a while till I got everything where I wanted it.
Unfortunately...both some days :-)
Tim I wasn't trying to be a smart-XXX; you just had me wondering. Tolkien isn't it? Love your collection of model 17s. I have some myself...Geo
Tim, one nice thing about collecting old pumps is the price compared with doubles of the same era. That solid rib two barrel set is very nice. What a bird gun that IC barrel would make... Gil
I've been doing a bit of Model 17 research and have noticed some interesting(?) things. They were obviously building these things at Ilion before the company reorganized from Remington Arms - Union Metallic Cartridge Co., INC. and became Remington Arms Co., Inc., even though the gun wasn't introduced until the first Remington Arms Co., Inc. catalogue --
The early guns up into at least the 20xxx serial number range had the inventory code BO and the serial number stamped on the bottom of the receiver ahead of the loading port --
These first 20k or so guns had the REMINGTON trade mark logo in the action slide and MODEL 17 on the barrel.
By the 30xxx range they moved the REMINGTON trade mark logo, MODEL 17 and the serial number to the left side of the receiver, low and towards the front --
finally they moved the REMINGTON trade mark logo, MODEL 17 and the serial number higher and towards the middle on the left side of the receiver --
Anyone out there have a feeling for what serial number range the name changed to Remington Arms Co., Inc. on the barrel? What range the REMINGTON trade mark logo, MODEL 17 and the serial number was moved to the left side of the receiver.
I'm going off the top of my head, but I think the guns I've had with the Remington on the slide and not on the receiver were in the 20,000 range. I have had a 3 digit and now have a 4 digit UMC guns and all have had the BO mark with the serial number and no barrel date code. I'm guessing they were all Remington Arms by 5 digits??? I'll have to see if I have pictures that will help.
UMC Pamphlet
Here was a "combination" of markings.
Slide mark on UMC gun
Just to confuse things, here is one with no markings. I sure wish I had better pictures of this one. Not sure why I don't I'll have to look. I had new wood made for it (stock busted)that didn't fit and it went down the road. Now that I realize it was rather "rare"...well lessen learned.
Mr. Frazier: FWIW, Bromley's gun shop is advertising a 30-inch solid rib gun for sale.
I have observed a couple of Model 10s that were from the early 1920s that had barrels roll-stamped "Remington Arms - Union Metallic Cartridge Co., Inc." and in front of that they added another roll stamp "Remington Arms Co., Inc. Successor to ..."
Have Model 17s been observed marked like that?
FWIW, my M-17 has the BO and sn 24615 stamp at the bottom front of the receiver. Barrel is marked "Remington Arms Company, Ilion Works." It has a 26 inch IC solid ribbed barrel.
