http://www.naturabuy.fr/IDEAL-PERFECTION-TYPE-ANGLAIS-item-3619970.html

This model of Ideal, built to appeal to the British, is a very rare item. Wingshooter and I have only ever seen 3 come up for sale. The other two have been up in the 20,000 Euro asking range so this gun is listed at quite a discount. Any Ideal fans feel like taking a good look and picking it apart?

BTW, Last question in the question and answer section is a reasonably polite request for the seller to post a photo of the flats and proofs. Seller basically tells the person asking for the pic to quit wasting his time and F*** Off. It's quite stunning and is one more thing that gives rise to our suspicions.

I would rather have "Anglais a la Birminghamou". The metal to metal fit isn't particularly good. Perhaps it has been taken apart and put together too many times I don't know. I would pass. For 20,000 Euro or USD I would search for second-hand Granger. Some years ago Hallowell & Co had very nice 20ga Granger SLE for kool $20,000. It did not sell quickly because unless it was made in London, Brimingham or Gardone typical buyer in USA doesn't know what they're looking at. Manufrance isn't Granger but they did make some that resemble Scottish round actioned game guns. Those Manufrance Ideals are very, very nice and unique looking. That is what I would search for.

yo no ablo fran ce...est disen der frencie boxlockengon mit der false sideplatzennottens?

No, ed. Back action sidelock. No burn marks, that I can see.

James, the engraving was quite nice, and the wood is spectacular. The rest of the gun has the appearance of being quite tired, however. The laundry list of needs on the thing could be quite extensive. 8K is still 8K, after all.

There has got to be a continental sidelock that is a better risk than this one.


Best,
Ted

Ted, not considering spending money on this one. Just looked off to me and wondered what others thought. I like deals but this one has the air of fakery somehow to me.

For those of us fans of Ideals, this one furrowed our brows on a number of fronts. Without giving away the store, let me note a few observations of Messr. James and myself: Sling swivel mount on butt stock, lack of sharp lines in engraving, and perhaps related to the latter, the mysterious spot behind the left fence. Price point and seller's response pique the interest: not to purchase, but engage in the study of a fine firearm whose "mass production" was anything but "cookie cutter." Mike

uh, tedschultz...ifn disen est der sidelockengon, where est der pins holden der locken partz unt der placen?

Of course it's not a sidelock, although the sideplates do offer more canvas for the engraver's art work.

To me, the wood in the buttstock looks unusually fancy, almost makes me guess restocked. But the checkering looks fairly worn.

Mike, what's it cost to import a gun from France? Think I've heard $500 or so from the UK these days.

Larry,
Continental guns can fool you, here and there, but, look at this picture:

http://www.naturabuy.fr/IDEAL-PERFECTION-TYPE-ANGLAIS-item-3619970.html

There isn't any way to access the "box". No plate, no screws to hold the plate on.

Looks like the bottom of every sidelock.

The pictures aren't the best, but, good enough for just about anyone to walk away clean.

Best,
Ted

Ted's assessment is spot on, Quite tired indeed.
JR

Ted, How hard, I.e. expensive is it to bring a gun in from France now?

Getting a gun from France to the US can be done for around $500.

Ted, my understanding from my imperfect reading of Mournatas's book is that the internals are the same as every other Ideal, they just reshaped the outside and added the plates to make it appear as a sidelock.

But I have never taken one apart nor have I seen pics of an type Anglais apart.

aint neva scene no side lock gon wid out pins...an supossidly da mo pins da betta? lik ah 22 pin gon is betta dan ah 18 pin gon, or not?

Ed, go somewhere else and be an idiot. Quit trolling my thread.

by your command...

There exist pinless locks. NOT saying this is one, but, it has been done, mostly in Italy.

The advantages of the Ideal, the slim metalwork with rounded action, different, but, useful opening lever, and the ability to cock or uncock the gun with the opening lever, would be mostly lost were the Ideal guts stuffed into a conventional looking frame.

I don't see the point. Did a Frenchman really believe an Englishman would be tempted to buy and use one of these, versus what was availabe in his hometown, or, close by, produced by his neighbors?

More than one Frenchman has told me to imagine anything the English do, and then understand a Frenchman does the opposite.


Best,
Ted

I like the basic French Ideal, think it is a good looking gun and is tougher then a junkyard dog.

James has answered the import question, and is key to getting the cost down. We both have developed limited contacts in France, but continue to slowly expand them as we (mostly James) help some members get Ideals over here.

Ted, like James stated this is their trigger plate action internals with the externals configured to attempt to appeal to the English market. With little success, I believe. Besides the receiver externals, a top rib was added, and the brettelle automatique appears to be eliminated. See below http://www.naturabuy.fr/IDEAL-modele-ANGLAIS-item-2081633.html The checkering does not look factory to me, and not of a quality that would have been found on a Perfection (note overrun on left side), and led me to also wonder if this might be a restock. Larry makes some good observations.

http://www.positiveshooting.com/Boxhall%20and%20Edmiston.html

Just an example, apologies if it's a bit off topic.

I believe that this gun has indeed undergone a major "upgrade".
The stock is new. I have never seen a real piece of French walnut with that figure. The wood looks Turkish to me. I am not even sure that the grain at the head is remotely reasonable.
The engraving is highly suspect as well. At the very least, it has been polished.
However, I don't think that "la manu" ever did a low grade Ideal "anglais". And ditto for the (reversed) sideclips. So I think that this was at some point a high grade ideal (or maybe part of one).

As for the swivels, I have a 7RE/C that has them and I am 100% confident that they are originals. The "bretelle automatique" is OK if you don't need to use it for a long period of time. It has to be narrow by necessity, hence it is not confortable.
Many customizations were possible on those high grade Ideal.

WC-

WC, given the reluctance of the seller to show the barrel flats, my suspicions are that it was once "part" of a high grade Ideal. And I'm sure it's a restock.

I can't remember seeing your 7RE/C so it would be nice if you posted a pic or two. The higher grades are rare on both sides of the pond.

Thank you, WC. I was hoping you would chime in.

Actually, my 7RE/C Ideal is at SKB's shop for badly needed repairs.
It has suffered from a lot of issues (many were "bubba smith" induced) and severe corrosion to the the grip tang.
So no pics at this stage.
WC-

Actually, here are a few pics I found, including the swivel.
The 7RE/C is an ejector "As de pique" Perfection grade with short barrels (65cm).
I found it on GB.
WC-

"Ace of Spades". Nice gun.

viva la france! viva la differ ance!

Yes, that is the kind of French gun I would be looking for. Other French guns I find interesting are those w/o barrel ribbing in middle or those with bottom rib missing from the makers shop.

WC, thanks for finding and posting those photos. Don't believe I have seen that one before. Absolutely gorgeous. And no doubt it will be even better when it returns from Steve's shop. That's an engraving style I haven't seen much before.

One of the things I really like about Ideals are the different high grade engraving patterns. Like they let the engraver loose rather than confined his art to "Company Approved" patterns. Very glad I snagged my 6R EE 12 gauge. Now just keeping an eye out for a companion 16 gauge.

I miss the Darne/USA forums that M. Gournet used to maintain. A lot of good information got lost when those forums were shut down. Not very active but a treasure trove of info on Darne and Manufrance guns.

https://drouot.com/l/20784633-?actionParam=recherche

Salut,
Un bel Idéal de 1901

Nice blend of your attempted Spanish-Germanic phrasing, Eddie. RWTF

Is that a different version of a "rising bite"?
Mike

Wow! Unlike anything I have seen before. Or in any publication.

https://drouot.com/l/20734817-?actionParam=recherche

Idéal de 1899 en calibre 24

Adjugé 8800 € +27% de frais

Thanks FAB500. This is definitely Moroccan work. I may be able to have the Arabic on the barrels translated.

Mercu FAB; C'est définitivement du travail marocain; Je peux peut-être faire traduire l'arabe sur les canons.

Gene

What a story. Unbelievable gun. Every Manufrance “Lunette” gun I have ever held was black powder, or, semi-smokeless powder proofed. Documentation on this one shows a 1901 date of manufacture. Wonder what level of proof it carries?

Best,
Ted

I didn't read the whole description - my error. Here It is.....the gun is double proofed; the barrels at 105 cm = 41 inches long. The Arabic inscription apparently reads "This is a gift offered in memory of the victory by Durayd to his friend Hajj Abdel Hakim ben Sheikh."

At the time (late 1890's) France was fighting a pretty constant war along the Moroccan/Algeiran frontier against bandits and raiders. They had embarked upon an effort involving slowly aggrandizing the frontier area, actually renaming some towns they'd taken so as not to admit to encroaching on Moroccan territory. I'll look up "Durayd" in my Moroccan history books.



Important fusil Ideal, modèle de luxe et de présent, deux coups, calibre 24-65, extracteur. Longs canons juxtaposés damasquinés d’or à la bouche et aux tonnerres d’arabesques. Marqués à l’or sur fond amati en arabe et en lettres gothiques « Fusil L’Idéal Breveté dans tous les Pays » « Manufacture française d’armes et cycles de St Etienne ».
-- Poinçons d’épreuve pour poudre pyroxylée,
« Acier Hercule trempé
» double épreuve, de calibre 15,0 et de MOF.
-- Bascule poinçonné MOF » et pontet à lunettes damasquinés en suite.
-- Détentes dorées.
-- Sureté du 1er type Longuesse et crosse sculpté de rinceaux feuillagés.
-- Manque la bretelle automatique.
-- Crosse à décor incrusté d’arabesques et croissant en métal blanc et nacre (petit manque) Plaque de couche en bakélite siglée « MF
» Longueur canon : 105 cm. Longueur totale : 147 cm.
-- A.B.E. (Petite oxydation des canons à nettoyer).
-- N°14827 (produite en 1899) Arme de catégorie D (brevet de 1889 pour le modèle à pontets à lunettes), produite en 1899 (selon les chiffres de productions cités par Jean Claude MOURNETAS dans son ouvrage « Le fusil de chasse Idéal »)
-- L’inscription en arabe peut être traduite par « Ceci est un cadeau offert en souvenir de la relation de la victoire par Durayd à son ami le Hajj Abdel Hakim ben Cheikh »

I cannot find any prominent French official from the late 1890's in Algeria or Morocco named Durayd. However, this is a transliteration back to French of an Arabic inscription.

I'm wondering if this might be Charles Dorian. He was Parliamentary deputy for the Loire region. He accompanied the famous Foreau-Lamy mission 1898-1900, presented to the French Parliament (which was anti-colonialist in general) as a "scientific expedition" but which was in fact military to its core organized by the Army in Algeria. It crossed the Sahara and joined up with two other columns, one from Brazzaville and one from Senegal/Mali to take the Lake Chad area.

Dorian left the column in what is now Niger and set out west to try to link up with the Senegal column. He wound up continuing on down to the Atlantic coast in Dahomey which he reached on 18 May 1900. It's still possible for him to have made his way back to France in time to commission the decoration of the gun.

Sunset in N'Djamna (old Fort Lamy) from a few years ago. That's the Chari River (during Rainy season - November-December) heading down to Lake Chad right before the junction with the Logone River (border with Cameroon)....I spent some time there.

Double proof, is a bit vague, in this case, considering the era. There were several proof powders available, and, black powder proof, if that is what the customer wanted. Manufrance also proofed it’s own wares, although I have no idea to what level.

A picture of the flats would be very interesting.

Best,
Ted

-- Poinçons d’épreuve pour poudre pyroxylée,

By the way Ted, I thought you didn't like guns with gold on them?

The museum will like it just fine. I respect the art, it just isn’t to my midwestern, snowy, late season pheasant hunting taste. Might look good in your safe, mine is full.

That is before we get anywhere near 24 gauge and 41” tubes.

Which powder, by the way? It matters.


Very cool, nonetheless.

Best,
Ted

First time I see the type Anglais Ideal, and I am a little confused by some of the posts above.

Does this model really have a trigger plate action as mentioned above? The French postings I found on the net indicate that the plates are false and the action is the original Ideal action housed in the action bar.

Are there any schematics of the trigger plate action, if it really is a trigger plate action on the Anglais?

We kind of hi-jacked the original line. On the gun FAB500 just posted:

Ted: It's proofed for "poudre pyroxylée." However we don't know whether that is "J," "M," "R," "S," or "T." I assumed it was "PT." If so, the gun was apparently ordered in 1899 but the barrels were proofed after PT became available in 1900. Which is one of the reasons I thought the gun could have been ordered by Dorian when he got back to France. This is all speculation of course.

(I wonder whether La Manu decorated that gun. It could be that the barrels were special ordered after the gun was completed and the decoration was done in Algeria or Morocco - though of course anything is possible).

I'll leave it to others to discuss the Anglais Ideal whose pictures seem to have disappeared. I do own a 1906 Gerest Berthon (discussed previously) with dated barrels by Didier-Drevet which does have the false side plates and an "English" straight stock:

Salut Ted,
De 1897 à 1913 la MF faisait éprouver leur fusil Idéal renforcé a la poudre S.
celui-ci date de 1903.

https://www.galeriedemars.fr/archiv...ps-calibre-12-manufrance-france-xxe.html

Idéal 6 RE traité type anglais, juste des enjoliveurs.

first, i want to thank fab500 for his post last march, with the link to the grade 6re, and numerous pictures that show this rare variant of the ideal....a gun i would have never expected to see - much less buy. i am now awaiting receipt of such a gun - that i won in the recent morphy on-line-only auction, that ended a week ago....https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=598253.

the auction featured mostly "less desirable" items, and was a pretty streamlined process with few photos, and brief descriptions. i requested additional information, and evidently got the guy who had cataloged the gun, and authored that brilliant description....i asked for customary useful measurements, and pictures of the proofs, and close-ups of all sides of the action. couple of days later i received 9 clear and useful photos, and some pretty screwball information - "the chambers were longer than 3 1/2 inches", and chokes were cylinder & cylinder. the photos showed a very clean gun, and the proofs are "fusil ideal perfection", double proofed with powder type S, chambers marked "7" (but photographed so that you could not see if it might be additionally stamped), 18.2mm bores, stamped with the mdf under the crown - for exceptional/special order guns, and marked with the stereotypical "choke and demi-choke" stamps that seem to be the default choking on most manu guns.

i then asked for clarification regarding the "longer than 3 1/2" chambers, general conditions of the bores, and whether forcing cones were present. and, i posed a specific question - do the "bores appear to have been mutilated". here it got really screwy, on the morning of the closing day of the auction, i get a response; "when these bores were reamed out they were not rechambered properly. the bores are bright and smooth....but the chokes are gone, and the chambers are too long for shotgun shells to be safely used."

at this point, i chastised the fellow for marketing a gun with a pitiful description that would seem to say the gun is useable - when, in fact, it is not....and i "demanded" bore diameters, and mwt numbers - and asked if i could withdraw my bid. evidently this alarmed the fellow, and he carried my emails to another person (who did not choose to provide his name)....but did tell me that expert #1, had measured the gun assuming that it was a 16ga (with the barrels clearly marked 12ga).
thus, his chamber gauge was swallowed up in the bores, the forcing cones were mutilated, and the chokes were off the scales. this responder stated that "another cataloger had remeasured the gun to ensure they were correct and listed the following; barrel wall thickness, left .027, right .028
internal bore diameter, left .722, right .729
chokes, left .042, right .042
chambers, 2 3/4"
drop at comb, 1 1/2"
drop at heel, 2 1/4"
length of pull, 14 3/4" bores bright and smooth, sorry for the delay and miscommunication."

i decided that it was not a lost cause, and preceded to bid the gun up to the sale price shown on the auction page. certainly hoping the gun is as pictured, and the second "expert" was as accurate as he was sincere. if this comes to pass, i have realized that the "first expert" may well have sabotaged the sale of an exceptional shotgun - and allowed this old retired fool to get my hands on such as rarity.

best regards,

tom

in spite of the useful information recently regarding how to post pictures - i still don't have it down - so if anyone wishes to do that for me, i will gladly email the messages and photos.

and, one additional discovery, on ebay - a woman who has what she describes as a portfolio of advertising prints, put out by manu in 1909 as publicity, and she states these are not copies, but actual original prints of a fairly wide number of guns they were producing at that time.....https://www.ebay.com/itm/176348592515?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11304.m43.l3160&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=9e2132133ae54b9592a43a3d051825e7&bu=43061095167&exe=0&ext=0&osub=-1%7E1&crd=20240425165724&segname=11304

that would be quite close to the subject gun's dob, as it's serial number appears to indicate 1908 as likely production.

Tom, that is quite a story and I await your further description upon receipt of the gun. Most interesting. My "collecting" such as it is, has kind of been dominated by Lindners for the last 5 years or so but all I have to do in pick up my Ideal 12 ga to remember why I became so enthralled with them. The sudden passing of Mike (Wingshooter) didn't help as he and I were joined at the hip on the subject of Ideals. Never did find the right 16 gauge before the EU closed the French loophole I was using to bring over guns from from France for a 20 euro fee and postage, which typically was about $60. Some members here benefited as I resold the 5 or so Ideal 16s I brought over, down into the US for my costs. Mostly very nice examples, just not what I was after.

Quite a beautiful Ideal. Hope it works out:

Salut,
Très beau modèle.

Celui-ci de 1887/1888 avec sa belle crosse arabe s'est vendu 3000 euros.

https://www.gazette-drouot.com/lots/24933334-valise-en-chene-montee-a-la---


Un 356 de 1951

https://drouot.com/fr/l/24995741-fusil-ideal-356-modele-tir-aux

thank you, fab500.....

the earlier lunette gun has a unique (at least to me) stock - lower at "comb" than at heel, with an "ambidextrous" checking pattern....and viewed from the side, an almost "art deco" appearance. i have seen many photos of the lunette guns, but have never had the opportunity to handle one.

best regards,

tom

Tom,

Jusqu'en 1891, l'Idéal était monté uniquement avec une crosse arabe. A partir de cette date, elle commence à disparaitre pour laisser place à des crosses conventionnelles (demi-pistolet et anglaise).

N'oubliez pas de mettre des photos de votre Idéal Perfection, quand vous l'aurez reçu.

Une crosse arabe... Jamais entendu ça.

https://drouot.com/fr/l/15578558-fusil-juxtapose-ideal-de-manuf

Hrm! Je viens d'apprendre un nouveau terme. Merci!

https://www.naturabuy.fr/rare-fusil-ideal-pontet-lunette-crosse-arabe-collection-item-11259013.html

Ce nom vient du fait qu'elles ressemblaient aux crosses des fusils arabes Moukala.

Added to the dictionary (Updates now on p.14):
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=480959&page=all

Crosse - stock
...Crosse arab - Stock with a smoothly tapering neck to a sinuous butt.
...Crosse anglaise - English straight stock
...Crosse à joue - stock with cheek piece
...Crosse de borgne - crossover stock
...Crosse demi-pistolet - half pistol grip stock resembling a "Prince of Wales"
...Crosse pistolet - pistol grip stock

after more aggravation than i want to admit, a blind hog may have stumbled onto an acorn....



https://apis.mail.yahoo.com/ws/v3/mailboxes/@.id==VjN-AGfGbh60PgU8j-Dw6-tf1OJ7IWSRkf7YNdXQYatRnxWvNwBSQ57XXONugjGZKmsD_tmbZU_QP6bd5QzJLzvu9w/messages/@.id==ALlzJkdeCyQEZhP4HgMY-O7ng7o/content/parts/@.id==3/thumbnail?appid=YMailNorrin



https://apis.mail.yahoo.com/ws/v3/mailboxes/@.id==VjN-AGfGbh60PgU8j-Dw6-tf1OJ7IWSRkf7YNdXQYatRnxWvNwBSQ57XXONugjGZKmsD_tmbZU_QP6bd5QzJLzvu9w/messages/@.id==ALlzJkdeCyQEZhP4HgMY-O7ng7o/content/parts/

https://apis.mail.yahoo.com/ws/v3/mailboxes/@.id==VjN-AGfGbh60PgU8j-Dw6-tf1OJ7IWSRkf7YNdXQYatRnxWvNwBSQ57XXONugjGZKmsD_tmbZU_QP6bd5QzJLzvu9w/messages/@.id==ALlzJkdeCyQEZhP4HgMY-O7ng7o/content/parts/@.id==6/thumbnail?appid=YMailNorrin

https://apis.mail.yahoo.com/ws/v3/mailboxes/@.id==VjN-AGfGbh60PgU8j-Dw6-tf1OJ7IWSRkf7YNdXQYatRnxWvNwBSQ57XXONugjGZKmsD_tmbZU_QP6bd5QzJLzvu9w/messages/@.id==ALlzJkdeCyQEZhP4HgMY-O7ng7o/content/parts/@.id==7/thumbnail?appid=YMailNorrin

https://apis.mail.yahoo.com/ws/v3/mailboxes/@.id==VjN-AGfGbh60PgU8j-Dw6-tf1OJ7IWSRkf7YNdXQYatRnxWvNwBSQ57XXONugjGZKmsD_tmbZU_QP6bd5QzJLzvu9w/messages/@.id==ALlzJkdeCyQEZhP4HgMY-O7ng7o/content/parts/@.id==8/thumbnail?appid=YMailNorrin

https://apis.mail.yahoo.com/ws/v3/mailboxes/@.id==VjN-AGfGbh60PgU8j-Dw6-tf1OJ7IWSRkf7YNdXQYatRnxWvNwBSQ57XXONugjGZKmsD_tmbZU_QP6bd5QzJLzvu9w/messages/@.id==ALlzJkdeCyQEZhP4HgMY-O7ng7o/content/parts/@.id==9/thumbnail?appid=YMailNorrin

https://apis.mail.yahoo.com/ws/v3/mailboxes/@.id==VjN-AGfGbh60PgU8j-Dw6-tf1OJ7IWSRkf7YNdXQYatRnxWvNwBSQ57XXONugjGZKmsD_tmbZU_QP6bd5QzJLzvu9w/messages/@.id==ALlzJkdeCyQEZhP4HgMY-O7ng7o/content/parts/@.id==10/thumbnail?appid=YMailNorrin

hopefully these MAY lead to the pictures of the morphy auction gun....i have no earthly idea why two of them come up as photos automatically, and the other require manual labor...but, i can tell you - i'm exhausted.

Poinçon du directeur.
Après avoir vérifié scrupuleusement cette arme, le directeur de la Manu y fera apposer ce poinçon.

Par contre, je vois seulement les 2 dernières photos.

would a translator please come to the courtesy phone....fab500 is offering wisdom, and it's going over my head...

and, a particular question for fab500, i seem to recall him (?) stating that some of the guns manu marketed were covered by "special serial numbers". both the barrels and the action flats are marked with "2437", with the 2 lightly struck in both locations. might that be a special numbering mark?


best regards,
tom

Here you go:

Director's punch.

After scrupulously checking this weapon, the director of the Manu will have this punch affixed to it.

On the other hand, I only see the last 2 photos.


Fab,

Une question particulière pour fab500, il semble que je me souvienne de lui (?) Déclarant que certains des canons commercialisés étaient couverts par des "numéros de série spéciaux". les canons et les plats d'action sont marqués "2437", avec les 2 légèrement frappés aux deux endroits. pourrait-il s'agir d'une marque de numérotation spéciale ?

Meilleures salutations,

Tom


Best,
Ted

I see the first two photos and the other links won't work for me at all when I copy and paste into a new window.

My 7RE-C has the director stamp and PERFECTION stamped on it just like that one.

Salut Tom,
Désolé, mais je ne sais pas à quoi correspondent ces numéros qu'on retrouve sur ces armes.
Il est possible que ce soient des numéros de fabrique pour éviter de mélanger les pièces ?
Je vous mets la photo de la sûreté de gâchettes. Votre arme en est équipée.

Hi Tom,

Sorry, but I don't know what these numbers found on these weapons correspond to.

Is it possible that these are factory numbers to avoid mixing parts?

I'll give you the photo of the safety of triggers. Your weapon is equipped with it.

Translation of Fab’s message.

Best,
Ted

Document d'époque.
Ce fusil a été commandé par le Sultan du Maroc.
La probabilité que le fusil ci-dessus soit le même est très très importante.