Looking at a French shotgun with 26" tubes and 65mm chambers, fixed chokes. I have attached a few photos below. I have done some searching on line but can't find much on this builder.
Seems like an upper grade gun with the wood, checkering and heel/toe plates but very little engraving which I find a bit unusual.
Any thoughts on the gun or maker would be appreciated....
Rivolier Pere et Fils was a bicycle and arms manufacturer located in St. Etienne since around 1830. As you have noted, information is pretty sparse on these fairly obscure guns. Apparently, most were built between 1928 and 1940, but the last shotguns were built around 1973. The company stopped manufacturing bicycles in 1950.
Assuming the date of 1973 is accurate for last production of shotguns, the one you have here looks like a virtually unused closet queen, or one that has been nicely refinished. The very light color of the wood is common to French Walnut... which is actually English Walnut grown in France.
You can disregard the information given by Gladys Kravitz, I mean old colonel. The Rivolier family reorganized the company in the early 1970's, and is now a French Defense Contractor that also is a retailer of hunting, fishing, optics, and outdoor goods.
There is a lot of information In French on Revolier Pere & Fils on the French net. If you'd like any particular entry translated...I'll have a go at ti as long as it's not book -length. It's a well known firm which was a manufacture of guns for 200 years...and later switched to a retailer in the late 1900's. There is an article I found on the destruction of St. Etienne artisanal gun industry after WWII which mentions Revolier. Sad...how do you compete against Remington?
The older Rivolier Pere et Fils shotguns appear to have a different action than the one you have here. Photos of later versions show an action profile and pin locations identical to this one, but sans side clips. Here's one that appears to have original wood. I'd like to know who restocked this one though.
Keith, thank you for you kind words and additional information.
Bles you
I wish I could have seen this train-wreck before you edited it Gladys. "Bless" is spelled with two S's. "thank you for you kind words"??? Did you happen to ever have an English or spelling teacher who called himself rocky mtn bill? Disingenuous blessings from you are merely your own brand of trolling.
Don, as suggested above, the reason the wood doesn't match the lack of engraving is that the wood isn't original. Total restocking job. Looks to be quite well done, but no way is it the original French wood.
French shotguns are pretty hard to date. Unlike some other national proofhouses, the French didn't use date codes. Proofed with PT powder, 2 1/2" chambers . . . I think a pretty good guess would be a between the wars gun. 1920-40 or so. Might be newer than that; not likely older.
Keith, your posts will never score an A for grammar and usage. That you consider typos a sign of ignorance only shows how little you know about what makes communication compelling and effective. If I'd had you in class as a student, we'd have banged heads no doubt, but I'd have taught you something about asserting opinions utterly devoid of information or facts. You're just a JR version of our new POTUS, another loud mouth who doesn't know how to conduct a conversation without insult and vituperation. PS: You need to read E.O. Wilson. Your background in biology seems bogged down in the 19th century. PPS: I'd never have brought this up save for your gratuitous insult.
C'mon Bill... you don't really expect us to believe that you are a devotee of E. O. Wilson? Did you read a quote on a tee shirt or something? Perhaps you have something concrete to back up your assertion that my background in biology "seems bogged down in the 19th century."
On the other hand, we have seen ample evidence that you and Gladys Kravitz here have gone far beyond the odd typo. Everyone makes an occasional typo. I certainly do, especially on the tiny keypad of my cell phone. But you two take misspelling to an art form. There's a vast difference between ignorance and a mere typo. If you had me in your class, I seriously don't think you'd have taught me anything. I'd probably have felt compelled to go to a School Board meeting to demand a refund of the school taxes my Dad paid.
It's not surprising to see you, of all people, making lame excuses for Gladys, I mean old colonel. It's also not surprising to see that you are still unhappy that your favored anti-2nd Amendment Liberal left Democrat lost the election. Hey Bill, maybe you and Gladys Kravitz could get a job in advertising:
Keith, You're just a JR version of our new POTUS, another loud mouth who doesn't know how to conduct a conversation without insult and vituperation.
What is this, OT to the OT? Now we're bringing politics into the thread, Bill's "Butthurt" response to the election. Quick, someone talk about the Russians!
Keith, I am sorry my errors in grammar, spelling, and typing on my blackberry and mini pad have frustrated you. Not sure exactly why that is so; normally I am able to read though errors of others, understand what they mean without getting so excited as to name call.
Perhaps if I try harder, I can live up to your high standards
If my "ignorance" frustrates you, I guess you could use the ignore feature and not read my errors. That would save you some posting energy.
Bless you,
PS It is not disingenuous when I say "Bless you'" as I genuinely wish you would be blest into not posting as you do. It is also better than adopting a negative name calling and generally nasty approach toward you in response to your posts.
Keith, I am sorry my errors in grammar, spelling, and typing on my blackberry and mini pad have frustrated you. Not sure exactly why that is so; normally I am able to read though errors of others, understand what they mean without getting so excited as to name call.
Perhaps if I try harder, I can live up to your high standards
If my "ignorance" frustrates you, I guess you could use the ignore feature and not read my errors. That would save you some posting energy.
Bless you,
PS It is not disingenuous when I say "Bless you'" as I genuinely wish you would be blest into not posting as you do. It is also better than adopting a negative name calling and generally nasty approach toward you in response to your posts.
Gladys Kravitz, I mean old colonel;
In Re: Your latest off topic thread diversion...
Contrary to what you think, your spelling and grammatical errors, along with your frequent malapropisms and sometimes unintelligible statements, do not frustrate me. They do amuse me on the one hand, yet they also disappoint me when I think of the tax dollars that were wasted on attempting to educate you.
I note that you have suggested several times now, that I use the IGNORE function to ignore your posts. I find that rather odd considering that you began this little exchange by sending me unsolicited PM's and hypocritical responses to posts I made that had absolutely nothing to do with you. Prior to that, I had never responded to anything you posted here. Like an estrogen fueled, nosy, whiny old woman, you made it your mission to PM me several times, then to ignore me, and then to return to become a self appointed thread Moderator dedicated to criticizing me.
And now you actually expect me to not respond to your lunacy, hypocrisy, and ignorance? You now seriously suggest that I should IGNORE you if I don't like reading your asinine posts??? You may be dumber than I initially thought. You can keep right on wishing and hoping and even praying that you will change me. I assure you that you won't. I have never used the IGNORE function, and I won't be starting now. And as I've reminded you several times now, disingenuous blessings from whiny pin-headed hypocrites in denial are not needed. When I can upset someone like you Gladys, it makes me smile.
See there Gladys, when you decide to IGNORE me once again, the example provided a couple times above by King Brown's little brother Larry is exactly what you don't want to do.
Larry claims he is IGNORING me, but the idiot still actually responds to me. He peeks. He looks. He reads. He whines and cries like a little baby and bothers Dave with his sissy complaints and tantrums.
You can tell he's peeking by when and where he responds to me. I don't think he's the sharpest tool in the shed.
He actually was somewhat successful in crying enough to get a few threads locked until Dave realized that he was starting fires, and then complaining about the flames, smoke, and heat. You know, Larry also used to send me unsolicited PM's, just like you. I saved most of them, never knowing when they'd come in handy. You two have a lot in common in my opinion.
Frankly, I still wonder where Larry finds the time to cry so much. Considering that he has over 9000 posts here, over 18,000 posts on
... and tens of thousands of other posts on Upland Journal and several other shotgun forums... I often wonder if he does most of his hunting, shooting, and reloading with a typewriter or computer keyboard. At least he isn't spending so much time blaming deer hunter's bullets for lead poisoning in eagles, like he did in the Jan. 2016 "Lead and Condors" thread. Just my opinion, as always.
Jesus.....er, what was the original post about? I've forgotten ...still no idea, & reading the last 11 posts offered not even the slightest of clues Way to bog down a thread franc
Was it this Franc? You said this less than a week ago.
Originally Posted By: Franc Otte
Ed, My observations are that.. you like to stir the shit pot you like to ruin a few nice Guns. you are a few pence short of the full shilling. you are a pure jerk That I should not disable the ignore button once engaged franc
Um, I guess not. Wait a minute. All we have to do is go to page one to see, rather than getting all whiny and hypocritical!
Do you have anything informative to offer about shotguns built by Rivolier Pere et Fils, Franc? I didn't think so.
I did agree with your comments about Ed Good though. Keep up the good work!
Keith, I am sorry my errors in grammar, spelling, and typing on my blackberry and mini pad have frustrated you. Not sure exactly why that is so; normally I am able to read though errors of others, understand what they mean without getting so excited as to name call.
Perhaps if I try harder, I can live up to your high standards
If my "ignorance" frustrates you, I guess you could use the ignore feature and not read my errors. That would save you some posting energy.
Bless you,
PS It is not disingenuous when I say "Bless you'" as I genuinely wish you would be blest into not posting as you do. It is also better than adopting a negative name calling and generally nasty approach toward you in response to your posts.
Gladys Kravitz, I mean old colonel;
In Re: Your latest off topic thread diversion...
Contrary to what you think, your spelling and grammatical errors, along with your frequent malapropisms and sometimes unintelligible statements, do not frustrate me. They do amuse me on the one hand, yet they also disappoint me when I think of the tax dollars that were wasted on attempting to educate you.
I note that you have suggested several times now, that I use the IGNORE function to ignore your posts. I find that rather odd considering that you began this little exchange by sending me unsolicited PM's and hypocritical responses to posts I made that had absolutely nothing to do with you. Prior to that, I had never responded to anything you posted here. Like an estrogen fueled, nosy, whiny old woman, you made it your mission to PM me several times, then to ignore me, and then to return to become a self appointed thread Moderator dedicated to criticizing me.
And now you actually expect me to not respond to your lunacy, hypocrisy, and ignorance? You now seriously suggest that I should IGNORE you if I don't like reading your asinine posts??? You may be dumber than I initially thought. You can keep right on wishing and hoping and even praying that you will change me. I assure you that you won't. I have never used the IGNORE function, and I won't be starting now. And as I've reminded you several times now, disingenuous blessings from whiny pin-headed hypocrites in denial are not needed. When I can upset someone like you Gladys, it makes me smile.
You initiate an attack and name call and claim I am creating a diversion by polite response. Implicit in that thought is you are immune from response and persons attacked in your post should yield to your infinite wit and be silent; a rather arrogant proposition.
Your post claims my errors do not bother you. However, your postings about them show otherwise. Or are they just an excuse to be insulting? Perhaps I should err all the time in order to occupy the focus of your mature and witty postings.
In the past you have espoused I should ignore you. I have repeatedly returned the recommendation. If that bothers you be it. I have ignored you at times in the past as your posts are a bother, but have decided for the time being I will not as to do so yields the floor to bullying posts.
You have stated in the past you attack me because I offended you by sending you PMs (I add in which I was both polite and respectful) and that I stuck my nose into other threads (I had the audacity to argue against your diversions and attacks). I translate your position to be no one should oppose you or you will haunt their future posts with derision. Not a very gentlemanly position or a support for the First Amendment.
Your posts create an atmosphere of repressive speech. Your negative posts have more in common with the leftists at Middlebury who insisted on insulting and shouting down opposing thought. Ultimately these negative posts make this a place where people may not want to freely exchange ideas because they don’t want to bother with your negative posts
The bottom-line is I will continue to post against your thread diversions and insults when I feel like it. I have little doubt your posts will continue to contain infantile name calling and otherwise insulting silliness. Your negative posts demonstrate the quality of your thought. Rather sad, as you are capable of quality posts with well thought out opinions. That said, your quality posts show the deliberate nature of your negative postings.
I continue to genuinely wish you well and hope you can find a way to cease your attacking diversions and insults.
Yep, Gladys, I mean old colonel, you still apparently have reading comprehension problems. I didn't "espouse" that you should ignore me. You said you were ignoring me, but then went on to do it even less effectively than King Brown's little brother Larry.
Feel free to continue being a self-appointed hypocritical thread Moderator who follows me around attempting to turn me into the same kind of pin head as yourself. But don't be surprised when I let you know what I think of you. Translate my posts however you wish. You have repeatedly shown that you are too ignorant to comprehend them anyway.
You however do seem to understand the deliberate nature of my comments and my opinions directed toward you. I like to think they make you grind your teeth at night. There is nothing polite about your hypocrisy and disingenuous blessings either.
One question though... who did you get to help you write and spell-check that nonsense? Oh, forget it. I still never got an answer from you about how many Draft Horses it would take to pull a greased sewing needle from your anal retentive posterior.
So the differences between the European Houses and the English Houses were, what?
The Spanish, French and Belgium each had small working shops that created these masterpieces from start to finish in small numbers whereas in England and also in Germany these small Houses would rough out various parts then send them along to the bigger Houses to be finished?
And we throw all of the European small Houses under the Guild gun label?
Or is that to general of a statement?
And shouldn't Georges Granger be considered a small shop also.
Not really so different . . . other than the fact that quite a few of the European guild guns don't carry any maker's name, while it's very rare to find a "no name" Brit gun.
Most of the so-called guild guns aren't masterpieces, and most of them weren't made in one shop. They were cooperative projects involving outworkers, each focusing on his own specialty: stocker, actioner, barrel maker, etc. And in many cases, those outworkers also worked on guns made for "name" makers.
There were relatively few large "name" makers that did everything in house. Francotte in Belgium, Sauer in Germany, and Manufrance and Darne in France would be examples, along with Webley & Scott in the UK. Most of the smaller volume makers relied to at least some extent on outworkers. And in some cases, the name you find on a shotgun is that of the shop that sold it--and they may have had little or nothing to do with actually making the gun.
So the differences between the European Houses and the English Houses were, what?
The Spanish, French and Belgium each had small working shops that created these masterpieces from start to finish in small numbers whereas in England and also in Germany these small Houses would rough out various parts then send them along to the bigger Houses to be finished?
And we throw all of the European small Houses under the Guild gun label?
Or is that to general of a statement?
And shouldn't Georges Granger be considered a small shop also.
I would say the difference is amount of expertise on part of buyer to get a good one. With English it comes down to British proof marks and whether the gun is in proof while with guns from countries like France, Belgium and Spain its a crap shoot. If you want solid quality British guild gun I can recommend 'Army & Navy' "brand". For those need something solid for less German and Italian is good place to start. For example, entry level JP Sauer extractor, German Geco, PB extractor, Antonio Zoli or VB will be solid long lasting gun given minimum of care.
Not really so different . . . other than the fact that quite a few of the European guild guns don't carry any maker's name, while it's very rare to find a "no name" Brit gun.
Most of the so-called guild guns aren't masterpieces, and most of them weren't made in one shop. They were cooperative projects involving outworkers, each focusing on his own specialty: stocker, actioner, barrel maker, etc. And in many cases, those outworkers also worked on guns made for "name" makers.
There were relatively few large "name" makers that did everything in house. Francotte in Belgium, Sauer in Germany, and Manufrance and Darne in France would be examples, along with Webley & Scott in the UK. Most of the smaller volume makers relied to at least some extent on outworkers. And in some cases, the name you find on a shotgun is that of the shop that sold it--and they may have had little or nothing to do with actually making the gun.
The quintessential British guild guns are the 'Army & Navy' pieces and for us Americans Birmingham made "Winchester" hammer guns ie the best double guns ever to grace the Winchester name. Those date back to good old days when like us today Great Britain was a superpower with large number of colonies.
Winchester imports were manufactured by specific makers. Individual components may have been fabricated by a small "guild" operation, but it would be more appropriate to refer to them as tradename guns, of which some Belgian makers and Crescent gave a bad name
A Class C
The first two orders of guns Winchester imported were made by C.G. Bonehill, and were in five grades from Match Gun down to D-quality. In 1882 a third order was acquired from Richard Redman. Winchester also imported guns from W.C. McAntree & Co. and W.C. Scott & Sons.
No not all A&N guns were built W&S. The records are available through the University of Glasgow. Free to find out who ordered it and what year. Digital pictures of the order sheet are 40 GBP. Here is a sample: http://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_67061_en.pdf
No not all A&N guns were built W&S. The records are available through the University of Glasgow. Free to find out who ordered it and what year. Digital pictures of the order sheet are 40 GBP. Here is a sample: http://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_67061_en.pdf
We're splitting hairs here. 99% of the A&N sxs shotguns were made by W&S. Save a few spiral spring guns marked A&N. Calling A&N's guild guns is just bad info.
Army & Navy guns are not "guild" guns. They were all built from raw forging, to the guns completion at the Webley & Scott factory in Birmingham.
Yes, those are guns with forged components mostly from Birmingham and some provincial trade. They are quality guns often found at reasonable price. Not being fancy or expensive one does not need to worry about stuff like seamless sleeving. You get what you see wonderful guns. The English name for European guild guns were Ironmonger guns mostly from Belgium. One good example would be clunker sold under name W. Richards as in not Westley Richards. Americans call such guns Hardware Store specials.
The proof of how great English game guns were does not come from Boss, Purdey, Holland, Churchill,....but from Demonworks aka Midland Gun Company in form of 5.5lb 12ga BLE 2.5" game gun. It is testimonial to their great gunmaking skill in barrel and action construction. I don't mind demons and I'm not afraid of going to hell.
Would it be reasonable to refer to "tradename" guns as those made by a maker who also marketed essentially the same model under their own name? Hunter Arms Fulton tradename guns would fit.
Dear all My post was not to anyone in particular...It was just a comment on how fucked up I think this board is sometimes So far I have made two posts on this thread, both not really about the original topic either, so I am at fault too.
Yes, I have made some crappy comments about Ed, but I don't jump on every post & strangle it with page after page of You said this n he said that. I am here to talk about shotguns for Christ sake, nothing else ,that's all.This is getting real old real fast Nice Gun man! cheers franc
No way to know, treblig . . . but I'd bet against it. And that's not a criticism of the gun in question. Simply reflects the reality that Rivolier probably did not have in-house expertise in all the various specialties involved in the start to finish production of a side by side. And, as I suggested earlier, no way the wood on that gun is original. But that's not a criticism either, because it does appear to be well-executed. The wood and the metal simply don't match. It'd be like a high school girl wearing an expensive prom dress and flip-flops to the dance.
I've noticed a trend here guys, when we begin a discussion about the European gun trade we immediately begin to argue over the English gun trade.
So Rivolier Pere ET Fils built this gun, lock, stock and barrel, correct?
I look up for you. The piece was made into a shotgun in 1930s at rue Villedieu 2 Saint Etienne France by company named Rivollier listed as a gunmaking business. The bad news is there were no bicycles made there. The bicycles were made at large MFAC factory in Saint Etienne. MFAC stands for Manufacture Francaise d'Armes et Cycles.
Jagermeister, did anyone here say that RPF was actually producing bicycles at that particular location? There are numerous sources documenting that RPF was indeed a manufacturer of bicycles and derailleurs for bicycles. Actually, there seems to be a lot more information on their bicycle manufacturing than about their gun manufacturing. And please tell us how you know the gun in question here was built in the 1930's???
Here's a short excerpt from one of many sources:
"Born in 1885, Albert Raimond spent the early years of the 20th century working for Rivolier Père et Fils (RPF) a manufacturer of quality sporting guns in St-Étienne. In 1909 the young Albert persuaded RPF to start manufacturing bicycles, and he was put in charge of this operation. At this time, many companies manufactured both bicycles and guns as they used similar technology (high strength and hardened steels), required similar levels of precision engineering and provided usefully diversified demand (sporting rifles sold in winter, bicycles in summer, military rifles were subject to the whims of government, bicycles were bought by consumers etc...).
From around 1909 to 1911, Joanny Panel also worked as a clerk at RPF, and Raimond became aware of Panel’s developing plans for the Le Chemineau derailleur. Possibly through Panel, Raimond also became aware of Paul de Vivie’s experiments. Like Panel, Albert Raimond became a friend of Paul de Vivie and a part of the small group of French cyclists, known as ‘L’École Stephanoise’ (‘The St Étienne School’), who were actively involved in experimenting with derailleurs to facilitate cycle touring.
In 1911, Joanny Panel left RPF and set up his own company manufacturing Le Chemineau bicycles and derailleurs. He made a deal with Albert Raimond to sell his derailleurs to RPF to fit on some of their bicycles. Needless to say, Joanny Panel was not a reliable supplier and Albert Raimond’s frustrations led him to explore alternative avenues."
Here's a link to the whole article... which also documents that they apparently manufactured rifles too:
Your regurgitation research is as careless as your bullshit stories about the number of guns you actually own Jagermeister. If you're going to lie about what you have, you need to be more careful about keeping those stories straight. Too late to fix it now, as everyone with even half a brain knows that you are full of shit. The good news is that means you are probably still fooling Ed and Gladys Kravitz. Could you please tell us all why you post so frequently here when you do not even own any double guns? You seem like one of those sad, pathetic souls who have Harley Davidson tattoos, tee-shirts, belt buckles, leather jackets, etc., but do not even own a motorcycle.
No way to know, treblig . . . but I'd bet against it. And that's not a criticism of the gun in question. Simply reflects the reality that Rivolier probably did not have in-house expertise in all the various specialties involved in the start to finish production of a side by side. And, as I suggested earlier, no way the wood on that gun is original. But that's not a criticism either, because it does appear to be well-executed. The wood and the metal simply don't match. It'd be like a high school girl wearing an expensive prom dress and flip-flops to the dance.
Thanks Larry. Possibly sourced barrels? From Belgium possibly? Keith mentioned the differences in two Rivolier actions in his excellent posts, possible built the rest of the gun other than the barrels?
Unfortunately Treblig, there is not a great deal of information on their gun making activities considering the length of time they existed as a manufacturing concern. I'd guess those inconvenient invasions by the Germans may have put a damper on gun making activities. And much of what is available is entirely in French. I think it was probably incorrect of Larry to make the pronouncement that they likely did not build the entire guns. On the other hand, I suppose the same could be said of any large and respected manufacturer who outsourced so much as a spring, screw, or buttplate. A lot of very small, and even one man operations, have managed to build guns.
Revoliers were prominent Stephenoise (St. Etienne) and served the community in many fashions for 120 years. They made Bicycles beginning in 1909. Here is the first catalog mentioning cycles and a advertisement poster featuring their bike logo. It doesn't take a lot to make a bike - there are artisanal shops all over Italy now. You need tubing etc. Let me ask whether Trek is a bike manufacture when they advertise Shimano derailers, etc. Of course they are.
As for manufacturing guns, here is the cover of a 1911 catalogue. There is a factory on the front cover. Either that's a lie or they had significant manufacturing facilities in St. Etienne.
Background on the naming of Rue Jean-Baptiste Rivolier in St. Etienne:
I'll translate the entry
Date de dénomination : 25.11.1921, ancienne partie de la rue Chapelon. Fils de Laurent Rivolier, armurier et de Louise Joséphine Faure, né à Saint-Étienne le 13 juillet 1834 (consulter le registre), mort dans cette même ville le 15 mars 1917. Le 16/12/1857 à Saint-Étienne, il épouse Françoise Mélanie Oudet, lingère (30.08.1836 - 26.10.1899).
Date Street named: 28 Nov 1921 - formerly a section of Rue Chapeion.
Son of Laurent Rivolier, gun maker (armorer) and of Louis Josephine Faure, born in Saint-Etienne 13 July 1834, died in the same house the 15 March 1917. On 16 Dec 1857 he married Francoise Melanie Qudet in Saint-Etienne) (Born 20 Aug 1836, died 26 Oct 1899).
L'entreprise de fabrication d'armes a été créée en 1830. Jean-Baptiste va prendre la suite de son père. Il est par ailleurs membre de la Chambre de commerce et administrateur du banc d'épreuve.
The arms factory had been created in 1830. Jean-Baptist followed in the footsteps of his father. In addition he was a member of the Chamber of Commerce and Administrator of the Proof House.
Ses successeurs, qui fabriqueront également des cycles de 1909 à 1950, seront, ses fils, Alexis (06.12.1862 - 10.02.1938), Officier de la Légion d'honneur en 1932, Inspecteur départemental de l'enseignement technique et François Alexis dit Francisque (14.01.1872 - 10.08.1949) ainsi que le fils de ce dernier, Alexis Antonin Joseph (10.05.1903 - 25.06.1987) qui prendra la présidence de la Chambre de commerce de 1971 à 1979.
His successors who also made cycles from 1909 to 1950 were his sons Alexis (01 Dec 1862 - 10 Feb 1938), Officer of the Legion of Honor in 1931, Departmental Inspector for Technical Education and Francois Alexis aka Francisque (14 Jan 1872 - 10 Aug 1949). Also his grandson Alexis Antoinin Joseph (10 May 1903 - 25 Jun 1987), who was President of the Chamber of Commerce from 1971 - 1979.
This family was not a bunch of small entrepreneurs. They were manufacturers of note for 120 years.
A few years ago I handled a very nice Peugeot double at a gunshow. Evidently they made them up until WWII. It seems bicycles and guns were linked in many french companies.
Neltir is a retired Saint-Etienne gunsmith who is incredibly knowledgeable of French guns. He posts on this site: http://www.passionlachasse.com. I'd be willing to post a question on the site and see what comes back.
As pointed out in another line, Revolier like other European gun-makers sometimes used Belgian barrels. Here's the post.
A few years ago I handled a very nice Peugeot double at a gunshow. Evidently they made them up until WWII. It seems bicycles and guns were linked in many french companies.
Regards Ken
Several U.S. gun manufacturers including Hunter Arms, Remington, and Iver-Johnson also built bicycles. Lefever Arms Co. made bicycle chain.
No way to know, treblig . . . but I'd bet against it. And that's not a criticism of the gun in question. Simply reflects the reality that Rivolier probably did not have in-house expertise in all the various specialties involved in the start to finish production of a side by side. And, as I suggested earlier, no way the wood on that gun is original. But that's not a criticism either, because it does appear to be well-executed. The wood and the metal simply don't match. It'd be like a high school girl wearing an expensive prom dress and flip-flops to the dance.
Thanks Larry. Possibly sourced barrels? From Belgium possibly? Keith mentioned the differences in two Rivolier actions in his excellent posts, possible built the rest of the gun other than the barrels?
In the case of this gun . . . maybe I'm missing something, but the proofmarks on the barrel are pure St. Etienne. I don't see anything to indicate Belgian origin. Some French makers did use Belgian barrels. For that matter, some French "makers" put their names on guns made in Belgium. But I don't see that applying to the gun in question in this thread. French barrels, proofed no earlier than 1900.
As for Rivolier, if you look at the information posted by Argo, you'll see that they also made sewing machines, safes, cutlery, and ammunition. That's fairly significant diversity. Hard to tell how much of their operation went in which direction.
If having a diverse product line was any indication that a given manufacturer didn't put much effort into gun making, then one might conclude that Parker was a minor player that probably outsourced much of their gun parts and production.
After WWI, Winchester's product line expanded to include pocket knives, kitchen cutlery, scissors, ice skates, roller skates, fishing tackle, flashlights, batteries, sporting goods and tools such as axes, hatchets, pipe wrenches, planes, auger bits, screwdrivers, chisels, punches, hammers, and pliers.
It is rumored that Winchester may have even made some guns and ammunition.
Well Keith (having read your post above) . . . are you suggesting that the stock and forend are original and made by Rivolier? I'd put significant money on the wood being a custom job. As I noted earlier, it simply does not match the rest of the gun--which is a relatively plain boxlock nonejector with minimal engraving. Not that it's not a good gun (most French guns being well-made), but just not an expensive one, to match that wood.
Well Larry, I thought you were ignoring my posts. Actually, I knew that you read them regularly, but pretended to ignore them.
I see your reading comprehension hasn't improved a bit over the last year or so. Nowhere in my last post did I suggest that the stock and forearm were original and made by Rivolier. But I'd bet that when this gun left their factory, it had a stock and forearm. Very early in this thread, I said this gun was either a lightly used closet queen or had been refinished. A couple posts later, I agreed it had likely been restocked. In the past, (not in this particular thread)I have noted several times that old wood finish typically shrinks into the pores, and lack of that is a strong indicator that a gun has been refinished. Most wood finishes tend to oxidize and become darker with time too. Before I found any images of original RPF guns, I did not know how their stocks were shaped and checkered, so I admit that I thought it was possible this one had been stripped and refinished, and that the original wood may have been re-profiled.
The very light coloration of the wood on this gun still suggests to me that it is very possibly French Walnut, even if it has been replaced. I'd still like to know who did the wood work as they did a beautiful job. But I don't think it looks terribly out of place on this relatively unadorned gun. I know of some high grade Syracuse Lefevers that were ordered with their normal fancy wood and checkering, but intentionally made with very sparse engraving and no gold inlays.
That gun has been professionally refinished and re-stocked after it left place of original manufacture. The fit and finish is superior to original one.
Are you going to tell us that you did the re-stocking of this gun Jagermeister? That would be a believable as much of the other bullshit you've been posting here. Why won't you explain why you can't keep your stories or lies straight about the guns you claim to own? And why does a guy who does not even own any doubles spend so much time on a double gun forum regurgitating crap he read elsewhere?
I noticed that in the 16 gauge RST thread, you now claim that you bought a short barreled 16 gauge Remington semi-auto instead of some clunker double with an electro-optical sight. This new bullshit comes AFTER you told us that you had bought some ugly double with an electro-optical sight. You even said a couple times, that you were going to post pictures of this ugly gun you had bought.
When you tell lies all the time, it does get hard to keep those stories straight, doesn't it?
Are you going to tell us that you did the re-stocking of this gun Jagermeister? That would be a believable as much of the other bullshit you've been posting here. Why won't you explain why you can't keep your stories or lies straight about the guns you claim to own? And why does a guy who does not even own any doubles spend so much time on a double gun forum regurgitating crap he read elsewhere?
I noticed that in the 16 gauge RST thread, you now claim that you bought a short barreled 16 gauge Remington semi-auto instead of some clunker double with an electro-optical sight. This new bullshit comes AFTER you told us that you had bought some ugly double with an electro-optical sight.
When you tell lies all the time, it does get hard to keep those stories straight, doesn't it?
After feedback from lowiecki.pl I had serious reservations about double I had put 20% down on. When I went in to evaluate it again I found 16ga Remington with I.C. choked 26" barrel. Needless to say I jumped at opportunity to own very desirable gun at very reasonable price.
Well Larry, I thought you were ignoring my posts. Actually, I knew that you read them regularly, but pretended to ignore them.
I see your reading comprehension hasn't improved a bit over the last year or so. Nowhere in my last post did I suggest that the stock and forearm were original and made by Rivolier. But I'd bet that when this gun left their factory, it had a stock and forearm. Very early in this thread, I said this gun was either a lightly used closet queen or had been refinished. A couple posts later, I agreed it had likely been restocked. In the past, (not in this particular thread)I have noted several times that old wood finish typically shrinks into the pores, and lack of that is a strong indicator that a gun has been refinished. Most wood finishes tend to oxidize and become darker with time too. Before I found any images of original RPF guns, I did not know how their stocks were shaped and checkered, so I admit that I thought it was possible this one had been stripped and refinished, and that the original wood may have been re-profiled.
Pretty safe bet, Keith, that the gun had a stock and forend when it left the factory. Once completed, its next destination would have been either to the buyer or to some other gunshop that sold their guns. But that's not saying the stock and forend were necessarily made by Rivolier. I think we've all agreed that even large makers sometimes use outworkers. Given that there was never a shortage of outworkers in St. Etienne--evidenced by the relatively large number of French guns that don't have ANY maker's name--that's quite possible. But, having looked at this gun on Cabela's website and having spoken with the guys at the Gun Library in Rogers before this thread ever appeared, it was clear to me that we're not talking about the original wood. The wood does not look the way it does because it's a "closet queen". It looks the way it does because it's a custom job. And, as best I can tell without having it in hand and looking at it, I'd say a pretty darned good custom job.
And no, I hardly ever read your posts. In this case, from comments made by others, it seemed that it was one of those rare instances when you were actually contributing something of substance. Bravo! Every now and then, you stumble down the right path.
That's not what you told us Jagermeister. Why should we believe you now?
And why does a guy who acts as if he knows everything about doubles and guns of all kinds need advice from "lowiecki.pl"... whatever the hell that is? What advice could loweicki. pl give to a bloviator who seems to know more about doubles than McIntosh, Trevallion, Brister or Brophy??? Also, you recently told us about the great job you have, and the big raise you got. So why do you need to put relatively cheap guns on layaway?
The numbers still don't add up pertaining to the number of guns you have claimed to own just since January of this year.
And since you still don't own even one lousy double gun, wouldn't you be more at home on some Remington semi-auto internet forum??? That assumes you really bought a 16 gauge Remington semi-auto. What next? Are you going to tell us you are an award winning wine maker like your Canadian friend?
Larry, did you actually read my reply to you, or did you just QUOTE it and make another reply that totally ignored what I just said? Or did you read it and simply not comprehend it?
I didn't see this gun at Cabelas. In fact, I never saw a gun by this manufacturer until it was pictured in this thread. But something about it made me want to learn more. At that point in time, I had no idea what original wood looked like... hence my initial statement that it was either a very lightly used closet queen or had been refinished. Once again Larry, very shortly after that, I acknowledged that it had likely been restocked. We do agree that whoever did it did a really nice job. I'd like to see more of his work.
Let's not forget that it was you who made this pronouncement about RPF... with absolutely nothing to back it up.
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Simply reflects the reality that Rivolier probably did not have in-house expertise in all the various specialties involved in the start to finish production of a side by side.
Then you later seemed to suggest that they were spread too thin in their various product lines to be totally responsible for the build of these guns. That's why I used the examples of Parker and Winchester. Since virtually every vintage U.S. Double Shotgun maker used Damascus, and in many cases, fluid steel tubes from outside foreign sources, I suppose we should look down our nose at them as well, or call them guild guns.
It's become obvious that you can't ignore me, even when you say you are. You've replied to me directly or indirectly too many times to honestly claim otherwise. It's OK, Larry. I personally don't ever use the IGNORE feature on anyone, even though some folks here are hypocritical and loathsome. I have more fun pissing them off than I ever would ignoring them. If I ever do ignore someone, it will be for real... as if they were dead... no exceptions.
No indication they were made elsewhere, and there's often a barrelmaker's name when that's the case. So certainly could be in house. But dead certain they're French.
There was plenty of barrel making technology available in Saint-Etienne. Sure at times Belgian barrels were used in some Saint-Etienne guns...For instance Neltir said Zaveterro Frerres sused (Belgian) Lovinfosse Hardy François et Fils barrels (1930'a) - but it was demonstrated that ZF also used its own barrels and those of Society Heurtier also from Saint-Etienne. The Belgian barrels apparently infiltrated because of price. however, these barrels have proof marks and maker's marks. Belgian barrels have Belgian makers' marks and proofs. If the barrels are proofed in Saint-Etienne...assume they are French.
I agree with Larry - I think the barrels are Saint-Etienne; the stock is not original.
Here is a very interesting line on a Saint-Etienne G. Callens gun which discusses Belgian pricing..including comments by Dr. Drew Hause. You'll note that the comments are congenial.
There's certainly nothing wrong with Belgian barrels or Belgian shotguns. That being said, what often happens is that someone wrongly assumes a gun is French because it has the address of a French "maker" on the rib or elsewhere . . . when a quick examination of the proofmarks would show its true origin to those who know the difference.
The French often tell Belgian jokes, much like they tell . . . well, Norwegian jokes in Minnesota would be a good example. Often has to do with the Belgians' drinking beer and eating French fries. Can't necessarily fault them for that, either!
It frustrating though Larry that a lot of these beautiful guns cannot be traced back to its maker. Most the time all we have is proof marks to guide us.
Very little literature has been translated also that could shed some light on these beautiful guns that surface every so often.
We'll be working on that. There are several of us who speak French and a few genuinely interested in French guns.
The classic joke (which requires animation) (because even the word "Beige" can send French into proxisms of laughter))
-- Belgium guy is walking along eating fries..the cone holding the fries held in left hand. -- French kids says, "Sir what time is it?" -- He checks the time and immediately dumps the fries. -- This happens 4-5 times -- Finally he wises up. -- Next time the kids ask the time, he transfers the fries to his right hand and tells them to Foff using the international arm gesture (which of course launches the fries).
My wife is French...I lived for three years in Brussels.
I've had several people suggest that I should write a book on French doubles. If I were only independently wealthy! I've thought about requesting that folks here subsidize the undertaking . . . with the promise that I'd repay them from the profits generated by the book in question. I'm guessing that if I were to collect $5,000 in subsidies from those with an interest in French guns, by the time I deducted my expenses, there wouldn't be any profit left to share.
Two problems. The first, based on the above: For someone living in this country, it'd have to be a labor of love. Second problem: I'd guess that by now, too many primary sources are no longer available. The French gun trade slowly withered away after WWII. 40 or maybe 50 years ago would have been the time to do it . . . except back then, there was even less interest in French guns.
It would be tough for an English speaking writer, writing for an English speaking audience, to write about ANY countries gun making centers if the native language isn't English. Think Sweden, France, Russian, where ever, it gets tough when the distance is multiplied by a different language. I'd expect that profits from an English language book on native French firearms production of some sort, would be somewhat less than significant.
A readable and accurate translation of Mournetas though???...Geo
Well Geo, if it would be too costly to get permission to publish an English version, you could always go this route:
Or I could give you the kind of advice that we get from Jagermeister, the weird Libtard who doesn't even own any doubles and posts crap like this:
Originally Posted By: Jagermeister
When you get tired of two piper a new 16ga Auto-5 inertia driven semi-auto is excellent substitute. With 26" it has low weight and excellent handling. By changing choke tube you can select pattern you like with different loads. It is modern international design with parts from all over the world assembled at a secret location.
An Auto-5 isn't inertia driven. It's recoil operated. If one doesn't know that....they shouldnt be giving stupid, unsolicited advice on any gun board. C'mom dude...the Jäger's a certified doofus and he brings Keith's wrath onto himself by constantly being caught telling tales. I for one appreciate Keith putting guys on blast, I find it hilarious.
__________________________ Brodka: Hey kid: one more thing. If you ever set foot in this store again, you'll be spending Christmas in juvenile hall. Capisce?
I was discussing the new Auto-5 'Sweet Sixteen'. It is very nice substitute for SxS or 0/U shotgun.
The new Sweet 16 doesn't use an inertia system either.
I know the old ones used flat coil spring (early guns) then round coil spring wrapped around the magazine tube for recoil driven type of operation. I thought new ones also have spring driven system. I shot one several times, but since it wasn't mine I didn't have chance to look on the inside. Anyhow I learned something new, Being light weight and very good handling it is very suitable substitute for double barrel shotgun. I would never suggest my 16ga Remington 1100 because very few want 7lb 4oz shotgun. It works fine for me because I will use it for hunting, clays and HD.
P.S. I have seen MFAC at gunshow this weekend. It was good handling 16ga double with demi-block barrels, concave game rib, nicely checkered very "shallow" POW stock characteristic of old French game guns and sling swivels. It's too bad the seller and I could not agree on the price or I would have brought this gun home.
P.S. I have seen MFAC at gunshow this weekend. It was good handling 16ga double with demi-block barrels, concave game rib, nicely checkered very "shallow" POW stock characteristic of old French game guns and sling swivels. It's too bad the seller and I could not agree on the price or I would have brought this gun home.
Why should we believe this story Jagermeister? Go back over your own posts just since the beginning of this year and look at all of the inconsistencies and falsehoods concerning the number of guns you claim to own. Then there are the guns you claimed to purchase, and later report that they were only on layaway, and you backed out of the deal. Just more of your tire-kicking.
No wonder that seller at the Gun Show didn't wish to deal with you. Now you are acting like you actually bought a 16 ga. Remington 1100 after you repeatedly bashed the 16 gauge and advised others here to not buy a 16 gauge gun. Tell us why we should believe you? There are thousands of fakers and pretenders on the Internet, and I think you are one of them.
If one pays attention, it's pretty easy to see there are many inconsistencies in your stories. It is much easier to remember the truth than it is to remember lies.
Here's a couple more of your lies, this time about reloading shotshells:
Post # 472881 on 2/22/17- Thread :" 16 ga loads not filling the hull?"--
Originally Posted By: Jagermeister
I use plastic particles they use in buffered shot. Not sure where I got it from, but it works pretty well. Depending on manufacturer I think it's called Grex or something similar. It fills up the cup a little and provides wonderful cushioning for the shot above it. Very professional.
Post #475337 on 3/17/17- Thread: "Reloading Herter's 16 Gauge Shells from Cabela's"--
Originally Posted By: Jagermeister
Time = money. I always buy factory loads and never re-load for that reason. In free time I like other activities that involve fresh air like hiking, mountain biking, fishing, hunting,.....
You comment on a lot of things and a lot of guns Jagermeister... mostly guns that you have never owned and know nothing about... except for what you read about them. Anyone here can get what you deliver by using Google, and without the bullshit or the foreign accent. Your posts do illustrate why we cannot trust Liberals though!
But you avoid one subject like the Black Plague... Why does a guy who does not own even one double gun spend so much time regurgitating crap that he read somewhere else, here on this DOUBLE GUN forum? Wouldn't you be more at home on some Semi-Auto forum, or maybe a forum for pathetic tire-kickers and envious droolers who have to rent Chinese .22LR rifles and buy cheap guns on layaway?
At one time or another but not at same time I had several guns on layaway. A 20ga Ithaca NID, Ithaca Deluxe Solid Rib ca.1955, 16ga Browning Citori, Remington 870 Police Magnum. I have chosen not to complete sale on any of those. My last gun I bought was 16ga Remington 1100 with 26" barrel. I would show you pics, but I would not want to put you into unfair situation. I mean, you would want to show me one of your guns which would not be good idea because someone on the internet would take notice and at later time they could send government officials to your dwelling and confiscate said firearm....or worse yet a thief could take notice and come to your grand estate and grab many expensive guns I know you own. That would not be fair to you.
I notice that you still have no comment on why an internet fraud and faker who doesn't own even one Double Gun spends so much time spewing bullshit on a DOUBLE GUN forum????
Also, you told us on more than one occasion that you actually bought that Remington 870 Police Magnum short barreled pump when I noticed that you were alternating between the claims of owning just the 12 ga. 3" Ithaca Model 37, and claims that you owned two short barreled pumps. More lies and bullshit!
Originally Posted By: Jagermeister
I have developed "sweet tooth" for police shotguns. I found another Police Magnum with six shot tube, XS frond sight and Scattergun Technologies rear ghost ring. I wish I could stop buying them, but I can't. I do not know how to stop myself.
And no comment on your lies about reloading shotshells... first, your experience with Grex as a filler and shot buffer, and then your statement saying that you never reload, and always buy factory loads.
I could show you pictures of the Czar's Parker, and claim that I own it. Pictures on the internet prove nothing. But repeated lies and inconsistencies tell us all a lot about you as a man.
EDIT: I saw your lame and dishonest reply below which still neglects to tell us why a faker who does not own even one Double Gun spends so much time posting bullshit and lies on a DOUBLE GUN forum. Try reading your post about the Grex again. Don't try to tell us that was about repackaging shotgun shells. King Brown would be proud of that reply. I know you are hoping for repeated replies to your silly excuses so that my post with your lies gets buried. Don't worry. I'll keep reminding everyone that you have been lying to us. Keep flailing fraud!
The new Browning’s operating system is a knock-off of the Benelli design. Benelli calls its system “Inertia Driven ™” which utilizes recoil of the shotgun and the inertia of a floating bolt to compress the bolt head spring. The patent expired on the system, but not the trademark, so Browning’s term of art for its system is “Kinematic Drive ™” which is a registered trademark and also refers to it being a “short recoil” system. The below article linked below describes the Benelli concept in detail. “Paolo Benelli invented the Inertia system in the 80s and was granted a patent for it in 1986 (Patent #4604942), thus preventing any competitors from incorporating it into their designs. I believe Browning is the second company outside the Benelli/Beretta family of companies to produce a shotgun using the Inertia system since the patent expired in 2006.” Quoted material from the Thefirearmblog.com Still available for trademark is the “Doofus Drive” in honor of the man who interjected the A-5 into this thread. http://www.chuckhawks.com/benelli_inertia_action.htm
Hey Jagermeister, I'll bet you were hoping that your lies and bullshit from yesterday would just fade away. But I'm really interested in your lame explanation about your use of Grex as a buffer for factory loaded shells which you claim to repackage.
Most people who use Grex, at least those who tell the truth, use the Grex inside their shells as a buffer for the shot.
I'd also like to discuss why we should believe anything you say when there have been so many inconsistencies in your claims. You have lied to us about the guns you claimed to purchase. You have lied to us about the number of guns you own. And you have lied to us about your reloading activities. Then yesterday, when you got busted in lies about your reloading activities, you compounded that lie with another lie as a lame and unbelievable excuse:
Post # 472881 on 2/22/17- Thread :" 16 ga loads not filling the hull?"--
Originally Posted By: Jagermeister
I use plastic particles they use in buffered shot. Not sure where I got it from, but it works pretty well. Depending on manufacturer I think it's called Grex or something similar. It fills up the cup a little and provides wonderful cushioning for the shot above it. Very professional.
Post #475337 on 3/17/17- Thread: "Reloading Herter's 16 Gauge Shells from Cabela's"--
Originally Posted By: Jagermeister
Time = money. I always buy factory loads and never re-load for that reason. In free time I like other activities that involve fresh air like hiking, mountain biking, fishing, hunting,.....
SO WHAT DOES A LIAR WHO SAYS HE NEVER RELOADS SHOT SHELLS USE GREX FOR ???
Post # 476288 on 3/37/17- Thread: "Information on Gunmaker Rivolier Pere et Fils"
Originally Posted By: Jagermeister
Mr. "We" I do not reload shot shells. Repackaging is not equal to reloading.
That's a good one Jagermeister. Does the Grex do a good job of keeping your shells cushioned in the boxes? Why do you have to repackage your shotgun shells anyway? Is it because every other one is positioned backwards in the original box, and it gets confusing when you load your gun? Does the Grex make a mess and get on your clothes when you take shells out of the box? Do people around you at the skeet club you think you have dandruff?
Sorry for going off topic. Perhaps I should start a new thread to discuss repackaging shot shells in Grex. I probably will. More people need to learn about you and your new and creative use of polycarbonate shot buffering granules. Some of us are also curious why a guy who doesn't own even one Double Gun spends so much time posting absolute crap about non-Double Guns on a DOUBLEGUN forum.
I wanted some HD loads for my 4.5lb pump gun with aluminum action and barrel. I took some Fiocchi 20ga 3/4oz trainer loads and dumped #7,5 shot replacing it with either #4bk or #1bk. I used some plastic filler to eliminate the void space. I do not do it anymore or use the shells because knowledgeable member of the forum told me it was not safe thing to do. I would not describe what I did as shot shell reloading. Now I have fine Remington 16ga auto so I can just use Federal #1bk loads.
I wanted some HD loads for my 4.5lb pump gun with aluminum action and barrel. I took some Fiocchi 20ga 3/4oz trainer loads and dumped #7,5 shot replacing it with either #4bk or #1bk. I used some plastic filler to eliminate the void space. I do not do it anymore or use the shells because knowledgeable member of the forum told me it was not safe thing to do. I would not describe what I did as shot shell reloading. Now I have fine Remington 16ga auto so I can just use Federal #1bk loads.
I'm probably just banging my head against the wall, but here goes....
JM, if I take you at your word this time in your explanation of your "re-loading" activities, that you were just replacing the shot, you have just described why you should NOT be offering up advice on this or any other board. I don't reload so I don't tell people how to re-load.
If you have STOPPED doing what you were doing because more knowledgeable members here told you that your activities were potentially unsafe, doesn't that suggest to you that you don't know what the hell you are doing and therefore shouldn't be offering advice???
I wanted some HD loads for my 4.5lb pump gun with aluminum action and barrel. I took some Fiocchi 20ga 3/4oz trainer loads and dumped #7,5 shot replacing it with either #4bk or #1bk. I used some plastic filler to eliminate the void space. I do not do it anymore or use the shells because knowledgeable member of the forum told me it was not safe thing to do. I would not describe what I did as shot shell reloading. Now I have fine Remington 16ga auto so I can just use Federal #1bk loads.
Nice try Jagermeister. What a crock of shit. Interesting that it took you a full day to come up with that cock and bull story.
Actually, it's obvious that you are now piling up one lie on top of another. Yesterday, you told us that your use of Grex was for repackaging shot shells, and not for reloading. Now you are trying to tell us that you opened some factory loads, dumped the shot, and replaced it with buckshot buffered with Grex. But you want us to believe that is not reloading, and that you did this without reloading tools???
Originally Posted By: Jagermeister
I have picked up 4.5lb repeating shotgun with four shot magazine tang safety select a choke type of device at end of barrel as old age knockabout truck gun. The older I get the less I want to carry. The only downside I have to use specialized 3/4oz 1100fps loads in it. Not so bad 3/4oz was the original 20ga load.
It also strains credulity to believe that you would use some unnamed 4.5 lb. aluminum action and barreled 20 ga. pump gun with light loads for a home defense gun when you have also repeatedly claimed to own one or two short barreled 12 ga. Ithaca model 37 pumps. Remember when you used to describe the first one as a "Trench Gun", until you screwed up and mentioned that it had choke tubes and 3" chamber?
You also claimed to have a Police Magnum short barreled 12 ga. Remington 870 pump... but we later learned that was another of your lies, and you only had it on Layaway, and then backed out of the deal.
But in any event, why would any of us believe that you would go through the trouble of opening Fiocchi 20 ga rounds and refilling them with buckshot cushioned with Grex when you claim to have one or more 12 ga. guns designed specifically for home defense type use? Haven't you also told us that you had plenty of buckshot and slug loads for those 12 ga. guns which are much better suited for the task... if you actually own one. I have my doubts.
But what else would we expect from a Liberal Democrat who spent the entire election cycle bashing Donald Trump, and then attempting to tell us that he voted for Trump after it was all over? If you ask Dave, he can change your screen name to Pinnochio-meister.
Ken, Just for historical context, Peugeot guns were not made by the car company but rather by Peugeot bicycles. Here is a post from a French board with my translation and a Peugeot gun:
Jeudi 2 juin 2011 à 21:10 Alors....Le fusil PEUGEOT n'a rien a voir avec les voitures. Well, the PEUGEOT gun doesn't have anything to do with the car company.
Fabriquer a partir des années 30,pendant une trentaine d'années parciellement par une entreprise de haute loire(je crois) It was made beginning in the 30's for some 30 years partly by a company in the Haute Loire (I think) (note: Upper Loire - i.e. near St. Chamond) (I
Cette entreprise a produit aussi des superposés et des mono canon et quelques armes de point,notament du 6,35. This company also made over/under and single barrel guns and pistols - particularly of caliber 6.35mm
La cote du jour pour un 12 en parfait état: +/-600€.....pour un 16 meme état,enlever 25%..... Today the cost for a 12 gauge in perfect condition is +- 600 Euros. For a 16 gauge in the same state, raise it by 25%.
C'est de la fabrication classique et de bonne qualité mécanique. This is a classic make and of good machanical quality.
Les armes Peugeot étaient fabriquées à Saint-Etienne (France) par la "Manufactures d'Armes" de la société "Cycles Peugeot S.A.", devenue par la suite filiale du groupe Peugeot sous le nom de "Société de Construction Mécanique Peugeot Loire". Peugeot guns were made in St. Etienne by the "Arms Manufactures" of the company "Cycles Peugeot Inc", a branch of the group "Peugeot" under the name "Group for Mechanical Construction Peugeot Loire."
Cette région avait été choisie pour sa main d'oeuvre hautement qualifiée, Saint-Etienne étant le centre de la fabrication des armes en France. This region was chosen because of its high quality handiwork. Saint-Etienne was the center for arms manufacturing in France.
La production commença dans le milieu des années 20 et dans le catalogue de 1930 on pouvait déjà trouver 4 modèles de fusil de chasse à deux canons juxtaposés et 2 modèles à deux canons superposés, ainsi que 2 pistolets automatiques. Production began in the middle of the 1920's and in the 1930 catalog there were already four models of double barrel shotguns and two of over/under as well as two automatic pistols.
La qualité de ces armes à feu et leur niveau de sécurité donna rapidement une bonne réputation à Peugeot. The Quality of these fire arms and their safety rapidly gave them a good a good reputation.
En 1936 la gamme était composée de 21 fusils de chasse et de 5 carabines. In 1936 the offerings included 21 shotguns and 5 carbines.
La deuxième guerre mondiale interrompit cette activité et les difficultés du redémarrage industriel en 1945 mirent fin à cette branche industrielle. WWII interrupted their activities and the difficulties of reconstruction in 1945 put an end to this industrial branch.
