I'm hoping this won't turn into a political bunfight but, just read in the newspaper that a Canadian sniper has recently made the longest confirmed kill in military history by picking off one of the enemy at 2.14 miles with a Mc Milllan TAC-50 rifle.
Apparently, the round took over ten seconds from leaving the muzzle to hitting the target.

Before that shot, the record was 1.54 miles.
Mindboggling !

It's mindboggling but not so much if factoring hits and misses and luck, according to persons invested in the craft I've been talking to. Taliban would have been using mountain trails and particular stops that snipers could have taped with hits and misses without Taliban around, similar to lines of fire in regular warfare. JTF-2 wouldn't have gone to all the confirming evidence otherwise, in my opinion. US and Canadian special forces have been working together for decades.

With your imaginary pal John F. Kennedy as your spotter King, I have no doubt you could do better... offhand... shooting with the rifle facing backward over your shoulder, and sighting with a mirror.

Then after knocking off the leader of the Taliban at a paltry 3 miles or so, you both could celebrate with a glass of your award winning wine which was actually made by someone else.

At a distance of 2.14 miles I expect the bullet would have gone subsonic? If so, would the target hear the shot or would the round hit before the sound?...Geo

50bmg should go below supersonic speed at 1600-1650 yards. That will vary depending on altitude, thinner air, and what grain bullet is used. At 2000 yards I calculate the drop to be near 180' . My math may be off a little, 10% little because there are so many variables. Point is that any shot at 2k is near the extreme end of equipment and shooter. Not saying it can't be done but not by me for sure given fifty chances or five hundred. Hats off to those who can.

I believe that sound travels at around 1050 ft per second (give or take) if the shot was fired 2 miles away and it was in the air for 10 seconds the muzzle report would be well behind (plus was a moderator fitted) but it's a question of how far before the round slows to sub sonic and whether that would make enough sound to be audible from the position of the target.
It was at this point that I broke out in a sweat and realised why I failed my maths exam in school. I'm going to have a cup of tea and a lie down now but if anyone fancies doing the sums I'd be interested to know the outcome

I don't believe it.....

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2260704-...mile-kill-shot/

Alright I broke down and did the math. A 750 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity if 2750 fps, which is a fairly average 50 cal BMG round, will drop -2275.7" at 2000 yards. Shooting into any wind would make it more. That's assuming calm conditions. Converted into feet is 189.6 feet drop. On top of that the bullet will drift due to spin and the Earths rotation. But those factors have already been worked before hand and they get added into the setting for the scope. Might be 10' or might be more. My minds tired from figuring out the drop.

I once killed a crow with a .22 lr in my youth. Had a 30 -35 mph cross wind and the crow was 200 plus yards away. .22 was sighted for 50 yards I think. Anyways I held about 4 1/2' into the wind and 3' above the crow shooting off hand. No rest. Just a pure guess work shot kids take while leading its harder than it looks. Bullet took a couple seconds of reach the crow and killed it instantly. As luck would have it I even had a witness. If I had to do it again I could not hit it once in a hundred times.

John M, I wasn't a bad shot, placed well in the Earl Roberts Memorial Shoot for British Commonwealth high school cadets, using .303 Lee-Enfields. open sights over 100-500 yards.

I'm a viticulturist/grape grower who sells to wineries, who label the winery, type of grape, name of vineyard and the owner. It takes a good grape to make a good wine, and ours has won won 34 national and international awards.

Making good wine is not rocket science. The local winemaker and myself sampled my first L'Acadie after two days on fermentation. He said it would go straight to the top. It won gold at Chicago.

If your shift makes you growly, suggest change your shift.

Even a blind hog finds an acorn every once in a while, but it helps a lot when it is very good, practices a lot and has the best in equipment. Once again I appreciate the help of our Canadian friends in the sand box.
Mike

I'm no mathematician, but when I see lightning I count: "mississippi 1, mississipi 2" till I hear the thunder. The number I reach at about one second intervals in the count is the mileage to the strike. Ten seconds would be ten miles, so I don't think the target could have heard the 2.14 mile shot...Geo

He might have heard the thud of that 750 grain bullet finding home. But ..... he didn't remember it.

SRH

Five second per mile George. Figure a thousand feet per second.

Considering where the shot was fired, I doubt distant gunfire bothers those folks. Maybe, for two or three seconds, the lucky fellow thought it was a wedding. In the deer woods, a shot that goes off a couple miles away usually doesn't get the whole camp hitting the deck.

I got no problem with our snipers taking pot shots at Taliban heads. If he suffers a little before he dies so much the better.

Snipers, or what I like to call them sharpshooters, are a tremendous force multipliers and one, two man team, can terrorize an attacking force. Who ever thought of bringing the 'sniper' force to the forefront once more and the through relentless training elevating it to a military science in this war was a frickin genius.

No more, "Here Hathcock take this Model 70 and go shoot some gooks with it."

If you mean Carlos Hathcock, nothing could be further from the record.
"Probably his most daring and important active-duty mission was when Hathcock shot and killed a North Vietnamese Army general from a range of about 700 yards. Hathcock literally spent days crawling, inches at a time, to get within range of the general’s command post."
Gil

At sea level and standard temperature, humidity, and pressure, speed of sound is 1115 fps.

2,14 miles @ 5,280 Ft per Mile = 11,299.2 Ft. 11299.2/1115 = 10.134 seconds. It would appear if it took the bullet 10 sec's to arrive, it & the sound arrived almost simultaneously. This will of course vary a small amount dependant upon how much the conditions vary from the standard, but it isn't going to be a large amount.

That 1 second per mile is not even playing in the same Ball Park. 5280' / 1115 ft/sc's = 4.735 seconds per mile of sound travel.

I timed my "Mississippi one", just about 5 seconds. Of course if you were actually from Mississippi, it might stretch out to seven or eight seconds to say...Geo

I remember reading the account of that shot/kill. It is absolutely amazing, even today. I have a VHS tape of an interview between Hathcock and his instructor. How I wish I could get it transferred to DVD.

SRH

This shot was in excess of 3520 yds! Ymwnv:)

George;
Even to take 5 seconds you have to have a Nice Southern Drawl.

2.14 miles = 3,766 yds, 1 ft & 2.4 inches.

I read a funny quote that snipers aren't to be respected for their shooting prowess, but for having found a way to weaponized math.
CHAZ

Just for yucks, at that distance, what would be the calculated speed and foot/punds-newton/meters of force of the projectile? I would have thunk that when it met it's mark, it might have bounced off the target. Not being cheeky, just scratching my head as to the theoretical possibility if all goes well,(not by the target's account) if the projectile can penetrate to cause damage.

Gil, back then in Vietnam the sniper program and sniper training was no where near what it is today. That's what I was saying. They gave those guys little or no training and very little support. They literally bought deer hunting rifles and gave them to the Vietnam snipers.

And what's that got to do with him shooting some general?

Doing the math?

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

Put in the data, it spits out the numbers.

John

Yes, and I guess I do...Geo

A friend of mine, long retired, schooled under Gunny Hathcock when my friend helped form the first SWAT team in Georgia, which was a State Patrol unit. He said a couple of years after they got it up and running they were going to equip the unit with new rifles, and he was considering a couple different makes. He talked with Carlos who told him what rifle to buy and what ammo to use in it. Said Carlos told him not to mess with reloading for the unit, but shoot the factory stuff.

That unit would win the interstate competitions, between snipers of various departments, regularly with those out of the box rifles and factory ammo, much to the consternation of their competitors who would be shooting custom made jobs and hand loaded ammo.

He has some interesting stories about Hathcock, who he got to be friends with over the years.

SRH

My late uncle was with the 1st Marines in WWII and was one time assigned as a scout/sniper in the Pacific. During Korea, he was at Chosin with the 1st Marines and was a machine gunner at East Hill during the withdrawal. The 1st Marines' bravery and ferocity at Chosin are one of the great chapters in the history of the Corps. During his tour in Korea, he'd snipe and single shoot a Mark II .50 caliber at great distances.

Hathcock's skills and techniques are detailed in Chandler's book, White Feather. It was Hathcock's sole authorized biography. For those interested, I recommend it. Gil

Wish I would have seen your post, Gil. I just ordered "Marine Sniper: 93 Confirmed Kills" minutes ago. I'll follow up with "White Feather" when I finish it. I needed some summer reading material and I thank this thread and y'all for the inspiration!

Gil and Dave, I'm trying to sleuth the why of performance divergence of Canadian and US snipers who may or may not share the same equipment although there are no secrets between them: they’re killer brethern in arms, often on same operations. Usual security considerations. JTF-2 itself is so secretive that the Canadian public didn't know they were over there until folks recognized Canadians among Americans in a national front-page photo with blind-folded Taliban.

My notion today, likely to change tomorrow, is Canada not likely to have better computer and scope technology, more likely a better scope mount to accommodate the surpassing wizardry of American computers and European lenses. For sure it's different from my Uncle Doug’s WW2 British No. 2 Commando experience, raiding behind lines, searching information from warm and bloody corpses, family snaps and letters.

I doubt much or any difference in training.

Stan, I'll bet most of us interested in marksmanship and ballistics have turned common rifles into gems by hand loading. The 7X57 in particular.

As in any endeavors, training helps, but not all elements of The Knack can be taught. Positioning, concealment and stealth are as important as bullet placement necessary to ensure survival of the shooter and spotter. I worked with a younger man who served for 5 years as an 11 Bravo. He also had his sniper's badge. In sniper school, one of the first thing done is each trainee sews and glues up a ghillie suit from scratch.
The man had no gun handling experience before joining the army. Some of the best shots don't have a background in hunting or marksmanship, but their advantage is no ingrained bad habits. Training was on a clean slate. Gil

It may just be a numbers game. Your fine troops may be under different rules of engagement, and may be taking these long range pokes because they don't have any other choice. Even a relatively near miss would probably handcuff the vermin's normal operations.

Also realize ...... they don't write about the shots that miss.

SRH

My late brother was ex USMC sniper followed by career SF Weapons specialist including "target interdiction" specialization (mostly "middle east"). The figures are extreme but possible. The prior CDN record was achieved with "borrowed" USA ammo pre-heated in the sun. Also don't forget these ranges are a team effort with the spotter who is actually directing fire. They're rarely one shot one kill and rely on inept target response. 3 rounds is not unusual for a kill at those distances.
Jeremy

Our rules of engagement are prime-time debate right now in the House of Commons. We're "training" in Syria and Iraq front lines and NATO is asking for more of our training in Afghanistan. Opposition MPs say training isn't killing but a response is training for marking targets, as with the Kurds with whom we have a strong relationship, can't be done properly without actually doing it in fighting conditions. US training of Afghan police has cost the lives of three marines by infiltrated Taliban "students." And so it goes.

So-- what does all this have to do with the moderators definition for the purpose of this forum?? Maybe better addressed in an another forum?? I thought this was a shotgun forum.

Do you mean Marines, as in the USMC? If so, I'd appreciate the capital "M". I'd show the same respect for your armed services members.

SRH

Maybe there is a directive for impersonally disengaged distances. Seems like the prime debaters feel obligated to participate, but don't have the will to win?

More like stupidity and farce than willfulness, craig. There's a bunch of white guys who don't like what other people do in countries mostly of colour so they decide to take democracy to them and tell them how to run their affairs. It hasn't worked out too good with preceding empires and it doesn't look good for this one, still holed up in our forts while outsiders make the rules, eh? Try to keep cool.

King, aren't you aware that at least as often as Americans think they need to go "take democracy" somewhere, there is some tyrant behaving badly and the world asks America to go????

I agree. Let me help. This is to marksman rifle what Purdey or Holland & Holland is to game gun. It's made in Brimingham next to this gunsmith's business. How cool is that.....

[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/hessOd6uObs[/video]

This is real 007 marksman rifle Kaliber 6,5x47 Lapua being made for agencies of the British Government. As I said previously I'm very, very happy living in my own little universe.

James, replying to craig's question concerning our debate of how we assign duties to our military, I said it seemed more farce and stupidity than what he was suggesting---and I was aware members know white guys include more than Americans. The hypocrisy sickens to the point of becoming more pacifist by the day. I don't believe in peace at any price but we pay a high cost morally for membership in good standing of the West. I'd feel better if I thought its current efforts are an improvement.

Not only a shotgun forum Walter, but a DOUBLE shotgun forum. That means shotguns with two barrels... the kind that Jagermeister doesn't even own.

However, every kind of off-topic subject under the sun is typically tolerated except for those dealing with gun rights. For some reason, that controversial subject really raises the hackles of those like the anti-gunner King Brown, who continually attempt to suppress or derail them.

Just look at all of the off-topic political crap that King has posted in just this one thread. This is the same guy who has repeatedly said this:



Of course, that bold-faced lie came from the same King Brown who recently defended his lack of credibility in another recent off-topic thread that was locked by Dave (post #483156):



I thought this was a reasoned and thoughtful reply to that pure and totally dishonest bullshit:

Ah, Jack---as your friends call you; John M seems so formal---you remain snarky. Super turn you down? Your alma mater would be disappointed that you of all people, principal arbiter of my credibility, were blinded like Pete to the obvious irony of my post. And, rifles have always been part of our family friendly forum. Other topics enter from time to time but that's as any conversation of shared interests

King you shouldn't be so modest. You should tell your new imaginary friend Jack about one of your favorite "other topics" that you enjoy... i.e., bashing our 2nd Amendment, our NRA, and our gun rights, and then dishonestly claiming that you have never seen any anti-gun sentiment on this board. I suppose it could be Altzheimers disease, or just plain old run of the mill mental illness...

Just picked up on this one as computer has been down. Someone asked about hearing the shot at that distance. I used to shoot full bore rifle in competition using the 7.62mm. Long range comp. was at 900 then 1,000 yards. On a normal day that round goes subsonic somewhere between those distances and can make a real mess of the score due to its instability as it goes back through the sound barrier. On one occasion I was in the target butts when someone had a go with an old 577/450 Martini Henry. We would here on the radio, 'he's fired' then a muffled boom then a 'Zizzing' sound as the tumbling bullet passed over. He never did hit the target.

Good books on sniping; 'Sniping in France' Maj. Hesketh Pritchard. 'Out of Nowhere' Martin Pegler and 'Sniping in the Great War' by the same author. All highly recommended. Lagopus.....

Your alma mater would also be surprised an alumnus is now diagnosing mental illness as any disagreement with your notions. But should I slip into dark areas it will be without any of your spite and spleen toward others.

It's remarkable that you find historical citations above by conservative jurists and others as Second bashing by me. You haven't refuted them although I think you said Nixon's Burger was not a conservative.

Because you didn't agree with him?

Well thanks bunches. The stupidity and hypocrisy of the pacifist was supposed to go with out saying. You do realize that if improvement means survey teams are mandated to mark off three mile minimums, they'll still cower under the curse of whiteness?

Of course, craig, if you say.

Hey King, I'll answer on behalf of your new imaginary friend "Jack" or "John M." It is true you have posted many anti-gun and anti-2nd Amendment statements by Left wing Liberal Jurists and politicians. But right here we see you once again in dishonest denial of your own words. Take a closer look at what YOU said within one of your anti-2nd Amendment diatribes. I took the time to place your "I believe" statements in BOLD PRINT.



Those were your own words King... not those of jurists or others. That was just a small sample of the anti-2nd Amendment rhetoric you have posted here for many years... yet dishonestly claim you have never seen.

You had been duly informed and educated about the Framer's thoughts words, and debates pertaining to the Individual Rights component of the 2nd many times in the past. You had even reluctantly accepted being corrected on your erroneous notions. Then you always went right back to the anti-gunners' usual tactic of denying that there was ever any Original Intent on the part of the Framers for an Individual RKBA.

It is just as dishonest for you to say that the anti-2nd Amendment opinions of Liberal Jurists such as Burger have not been refuted here. But why would we expect you to be honest about that when you are in denial of your own words? It doesn't take a certified shrink to recognize that kind of pathologically dishonest behavior as mental illness. In my opinion, you are a very sick and deranged man.

It is not just my opinion, or the opinion of your imaginary friend John M., that Burger was not a Conservative. It is well known that he and his Liberal left leanings were a great disappointment to Nixon and the Conservatives who believed what he said during his confirmation. That's the kind of dishonesty that probably makes you smile. It is you who perpetually attempts to portray him as a Conservative. That just further cements your reputation as a total and complete fraud and anti-gun Troll.

Jack or John M, whichever suits, on your resurrected Second, from The New Yorker, first paras:

So You Think You Know the Second Amendment?

By Jeffrey Toobin
December 17, 2012


"Does the Second Amendment prevent Congress from passing gun-control laws? The question, which is suddenly pressing, in light of the reaction to the school massacre in Newtown, is rooted in politics as much as law.

For more than a hundred years, the answer was clear, even if the words of the amendment itself were not. The text of the amendment is divided into two clauses and is, as a whole, ungrammatical: “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” The courts had found that the first part, the “militia clause,” trumped the second part, the “bear arms” clause. In other words, according to the Supreme Court, and the lower courts as well, the amendment conferred on state militias a right to bear arms—but did not give individuals a right to own or carry a weapon.

Enter the modern National Rifle Association. Before the nineteen-seventies, the N.R.A. had been devoted mostly to non-political issues, like gun safety. But a coup d’état at the group’s annual convention in 1977 brought a group of committed political conservatives to power—as part of the leading edge of the new, more rightward-leaning Republican Party. (Jill Lepore recounted this history in a recent piece for The New Yorker.) The new group pushed for a novel interpretation of the Second Amendment, one that gave individuals, not just militias, the right to bear arms. It was an uphill struggle. At first, their views were widely scorned. Chief Justice Warren E. Burger, who was no liberal, mocked the individual-rights theory of the amendment as “a fraud.”

But the N.R.A. kept pushing—and there’s a lesson here. Conservatives often embrace “originalism,” the idea that the meaning of the Constitution was fixed when it was ratified, in 1787. They mock the so-called liberal idea of a “living” constitution, whose meaning changes with the values of the country at large. But there is no better example of the living Constitution than the conservative re-casting of the Second Amendment in the last few decades of the twentieth century. (Reva Siegel, of Yale Law School, elaborates on this point in a brilliant article.)"

This is wonderful King. It is great to see you reverting back to the anti-gun Troll... which you so frequently deny.

Leave it to anti-gunners like you, and the author of your little anti-gun article, to portray the words of the 2nd Amendment as "ungrammatical". And leave it to you to attempt to say that the Supreme Court had previously ruled upon the Individual Rights component prior to the 2008 Heller and McDonald decisions.

The 1977 NRA reforms were in response to increasing attacks on the 2nd Amendment by the Liberal Left Democrats you so admire and support. They were not to institute a "novel interpretation of the Second Amendment" as you and this author claim. They were a recognition that our Constitutional Rights were in danger of being lost to people like you who were attempting to change the clear meaning of the 2nd Amendment, and the actual words of the Framers, who said things like this:

"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

“A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms… "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

"To disarm the people...[i]s the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

“Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!”
-Benjamin Franklin

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

Old Thomas Jefferson must have foreseen anti-gun Trolls like you when he made that last statement King.

Now I have something else to add to my "Silent Doubles" Memorial Tribute to you when you croak. I think it's fitting that your legacy here should be your very own anti-gun words and opinions, eh?

Your disagreement should be with your fellow Americans, not me. Jousting with a Chief Justice and legal analysts seems more appropriate in another place.

I'll say again that I don't recall anti-gun sentiments on this board. Disagreements plenty of regulations pros and cons but no outright anti-gun. Tens of thousands of Second interpretations by myriad US jurisdictions are expressions of how communities want to live, "constitutionally" or otherwise. It's America's enduring debate. It's not one side can only be right.

King Brown, I just posted some of YOUR OWN words and beliefs pertaining to the 2nd Amendment for you... less than One hour ago... and you are already in denial of your own words. I even took the time to re-post them again in BOLD TYPE for you. See my post # 403804 above King. You responded to it. Would you like me to post more? I've saved most of your anti-2nd Amendment rhetoric so I can post it all in Silent Doubles when you croak, as my personal tribute to you. Now you go back to your little game of saying it isn't anti-gun for you to post the anti-2nd Amendment words of others. Then you even say that there are no anti-gun sentiments on this Board. That is just sick and pathologically dishonest.

Did you read those quotes made by the Framers pertaining to the Individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms, and what they felt should define the Militia of the 2nd, King? There are many more quotes, letters, and editorials written by the Framers to support the position affirmed by the 2008 Supreme Court decisions that you still wish to deny. Are you going to try to tell us that the NRA changed those words and changed history after the 1977 Cincinnati Reforms? Well King?

The fact that you continue to post the anti-gun articles and opinions of anti-2nd Amendment Trolls such as yourself just goes to show where your sentiments lie. You have a history of this going back more than 10 years here. This is no inadvertent misstatement on your part.

Pro-Gun guys do not post crap like that, unless it is followed by an attack on the author and exhortations to join the NRA or vote for pro-gun politicians... something you will never do. Do you remember when you flat-out lied about what Constitutional scholar Mark Levin said about the RKBA? How about when you flat-out lied about Obama's anti-gun legislative activities? And are you going to tell us that you've never seen your fellow anti-gun Troll Ed Good's calls for disarming law abiding gun owners?

Mental illness can hardly explain the kind of dishonesty you exhibit here King. You can keep right on posting denials King, hoping people will forget what you posted in the past. I will keep right on reminding them with your own words, that we have anti-2nd Amendment Trolls right here undermining our rights and stabbing us in the back.

Your attitudes are perfectly clear, and I have hardly been the only one to recognize them here. Who do you think you're fooling? But It's hardly surprising that you now wish to move the discussion to another place... after you have been flushed out once again... and once again showed everyone where you stand when it comes to denigrating and undermining our 2nd Amendment Rights and lying about the NRA.

Please don't blame me for this King. Your new imaginary friend John M. made me do it!

P.S.: Hi Last Dollar. I see you peeking! Can you see how welcoming guys like King into your ridiculous "One Big Tent" of Gun Guys is like welcoming termites into a wood framed house? Or are you still stupid?

This is kinda fun! Since I ignore both Keith and King Brown, I am free to make up my own version of their exchanges...

There's an unbiased source for you the 'New Yorker' This Toobin idiot wasn't he the one that wrote that article about him shooting an AR15 for the first time and said that the smell nauseated him and his poor whittle shoulder hurt from all the recoil. Poor little liberal moron I'm sure it took years and many hours of therapy to recover from his trauma.

Historically, the term 'Sniper' came from shotgunning as a feller that could hit a snipe with his fowler or shotgun was called a 'Sniper' So this thread has relevance back to shotguns including double barrel shotguns.

Great minds think alike, LD. I do the same thing. 'Cept I don't have anyone on ignore.


__________________________
https://youtu.be/ED5s1-Fe9FA

You'd have to be as deranged as King Brown to think that Last Dollar has a great mind.

Great belly... yes! Like a pregnant pachyderm.

Great mind... only if you are comparing him to Ed or Jag... or garden vegetables.

Here is another worthwhile organization we can all join and belong to.....

Oh, great. Now you have me thinking me, LD, Jag, ed, and King in the loony bin playing cards ala One Flew Over The Cukoos Nest!


__________________________
mmm, Juicy Fruit. Chief

If you weren't already thinking that, it was time to wake up and smell the coffee anyway. But the only way you could include yourself with that quartet is if you were loading your plate at the salad bar. Nikola Tesla couldn't shock that crew back to sanity.

P.S.: Don't click on Jag's link. You don't want to ruin your appetite or download any viruses or anything.

LD: Got an eight?

LR: Go fish.


__________________________
I didn't like 'im anyway. He wasn't right in the head. Crazy Irishman in Braveheart
https://youtu.be/NrJCDhf5N7k

Here is nice Facebook page for this wonderful organization....

I love living in my wonderful little world.....no stress no worries. Life is grand.

Fishing is a wonderful stress-reducing activity as is watching fish swim by in a large indoor aquarium.

Jagermeister too, is on my list..Now they got a 4some...

Keep that up LD you're going to end up talking to yourself...


__________________________
Golf...or Goof as my wife likes to say.

Might be the 2nd most intelligent conversation I'd have all day..

I had one person on ignore list, but thanks to you I have removed him from the list so now I can read or choose not to read his posts using my own brains. Thanks for making me realize error of my ways.

I think it's important and educational to know that there are anti-2nd Amendment and anti-NRA Trolls who are always working to undermine our Constitutional Rights. So I'm bringing some of King Brown's anti-gun dogma back to the top, since he danced away from this discussion in the hope that everyone soon forgets it... as he has done so many times in the past. King posted this article in support of his repeated and insane notion that our NRA actually rewrote history and was able to change the words of the Framers, and able to change the original intent of the 2nd Amendment. This is one of the exact same anti-gun propaganda methods used by Liberal Left anti-gun politicians and anti-gun organizations:



Several days ago, before King Brown slipped away from this discussion, he once again actually said that he has never seen any anti-gun sentiment posted here in this forum:



I've tried to help him by repeatedly posting many of his own anti-gun quotes, along with those of his pal Ed Good. With great generosity of spirit, here's a small sample of what King denies ever seeing:



I ask, is it even possible for a person to be more dishonest???

Sincerely,

Selby Lowndes... a.k.a. Jack or John M.

Dadgummit keith, someone suggested I read your last post even though I keep you on ignore. I saw you were using my nom de net from another bbs to sign your post. I believe you are aware of my using that name on Shooting Sportsman because I do not try to hide it, and use the same profile I use here. I have no idea who "jack or John M." might be, but presume that must have some meaning also. I'd appreciate it if you would quit using the signature "SelbyLowndes" in your attack posts on this site...Geo

Jack, members don't need reminding of hoary issues of a tragically divided country, of which your posts exacerbate by not recognizing and accommodating your history and facts of the Second. Citing former Chief Justice or Toobin on the constitution as a living work doesn't make anti-gun except for zealots. They're facts.

Ed's opinion is only part of the ongoing regulatory debate as the US grapples with more guns than people, a violent history with calls for more guns for public safety. Americans haven't agreed on how to answer questions of textual literalism and rational philosophy.

Freedom to own, to carry, to carry anywhere at any time are all freedoms of collective opinions but Ed's opinion may also be bound in his first duty to himself and his community---the freedom to think for himself within any pro-gun group such as ours. Our forum doesn't share a group mentality.

Got a chair open in the loony bin...Chief busted out and booked looking for some Juicy Fruit. Crazy Eight tournament about to start. King is setting up the snacks now.


________________________
I prefer Big Red my ownself.

Yep, a special treat from the Maritimes: kelp fresh off the ocean floor. Sea urchins---the local name whores' eggs---are pretty good. Goose grass colour it up nicely. I'm setting a good table. Expecting Crosby.

Blaaah!! Nova Scotia sounding worse all the time!


_________________________
Go, Chief, go!
https://youtu.be/OwzSx-MBjsI

THREEPEAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Crosby and other Pens were running down the line taking pictures with the fans holding the CUP!!!!

Man, that is a big TROPHY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Taliban Inter Office Memo:
Please refrain from standing in one location for extended periods.

Yabut, what if Ed's first duty is to his feelings? Does that make ideological feelings on the Constitution and regulations an adequate excuse to impose on others? Just kidding, of course it's a duty to pass off feelings as facts.

Mr. Brown, I really wish you would quit referring to the US as "tragically divided", "at war with itself" and the like. You are being overly dramatic.

If you get all your news from the NYT, CNN and similar outlets it may appear that way. But it's not what I see from here in the Midwest. Is the country strongly divided on many issues? It is. So what? Been that way for a long time. Still getting along just fine. The sky is not falling. It's like the old saying, if you have two guys who always agree on everything, one of them is unnecessary.

Thank you for your post. My use of the term was a response to a member resurrecting old stuff that most of us are tired of; it's not helpful under current circumstances. Here's the line-up today from The Economist, a distinguished journal with a fairly wide readership in the US:

"This week we mark July 4th with a cover on President Donald Trump. He promised to fix America’s politics, but it is more broken than ever. Badly needed reforms are failing, America’s institutions are under attack and its political culture is poisonous. Sooner or later the harm will spread beyond the beltway and into the economy." ---Zanny Minton Beddoes, Editor-in-Chief

This is no time for vitriol, vindictiveness and ignorance anywhere. We're in this together. No time or place for tit-for-tat sandbox politics.

Durn King, you can figure this out by quoting the nom de plume for cnn? Your big tent is a throw back to the ole three ring circus.

Geo Newbern, I am pretending to IGNORE you... so how could I possibly respond to your request?

I am pretending to IGNORE you because you have been pretending to IGNORE me since shortly after you attempted to start a shit-storm here with your decidedly off-topic and non-Double Gun thread entitled "Kingsley L. Brown". I still wonder why you sat on that old newspaper article about King for so long before you finally posted it here. But since we are pretending to IGNORE each other, I guess we'll never know.

It would be nice if we could get together for a few drinks and just pretend to IGNORE each other sometime!

Your friend,

Selby

Mr. Brown, your response is simply a logical fallacy known as an appeal to authority i.e. Because a publication you judge to be an authority affirms a proposition then the proposition has to be true. The material you quoted isn't fact. It is editorial opinion.

Here's one for you. According to a story by Reuters, a "distinguished" news service with a fairly wide readership in Canada, 48% of Canadians want illegal immigrants to Canada deported and a similar percentage disapprove of the Prime Minister's handling of immigration. According to the same source, many asylum seekers in Canada wait months or even years to have their cases heard. In the interim, many cannot find jobs or places to live.

So, is Canada "tragically divided"? 48% is a big number. Or is it all rainbows and unicorns and rivers of chocolate in the Great White North, as you would frequently have us believe?

Gee King, you'd think I was trying to take away your rights to be an anti-gun, anti-2nd Amendment, and anti-NRA Troll. I was merely performing a Public Service Announcement by reproducing your own words and your own anti-gun rhetoric and sentiments. As always, my opinions of you are based solely upon your own words and actions. I feel it is important for guys here to know and understand that there are Trojan Horses and back stabbers within the ranks of gun owners. Welcoming people like you into Last Dollars insane "Big Tent" of gun owners is about as intelligent as injecting yourself with cancer cells and carcinogenic chemicals. This is a big reason why there is your so-called "ongoing debate" about the meaning of the 2nd Amendment and the original intent of the Framers. Infringements upon our gun rights come directly from people like you and the anti-gun politicians you support. You pretend to be a friend to us, but you stab us in the back.

People like you, King Brown, along with Ed Good and the Liberal Left Democrat politicians and anti-gunners you so staunchly support and defend are always working to plant the seeds of doubt in the minds of the general public. It was you King Brown, who once again made your wild, false, and erroneous claim that the Supreme Court and the NRA rewrote history and changed the clear intent of the Framers. Many times, myself and others have provided quotes made by the Framers both before and after the ratification of the Constitution which clearly explained their rationale behind the 2nd. But always, you return with more of the same anti-gun propaganda as the Jeffrey Toobin article you posted here in this thread a couple days ago in your post #483805. But even when accurately informed, you return with more anti-gun bullshit.

Some folks ask why I keep this front and center... why I won't just let this go? I do it because the anti-gunners like you never quit. In my opinion, the only time you stop is when you are being deceptive, and again trying to make the dishonest claim that you are pro-gun or have never seen any anti-gun sentiment on this site. That is just laughable King. Imagine if I and several others were frequently posting the "N-word" and racist slurs, along with articles by David Duke, and KKK propaganda. Imagine us promoting the Grand Wizard of the KKK for President, and denigrating his opposition at every opportunity. Then imagine me piously and sincerely saying that I have never seen any racist sentiment here... and making lame and weak excuses that we are just reporting on an ongoing debate.

That is exactly what you are doing here. I've posted dozens of your anti-gun quotes, along with those of your pal Ed Good. Earlier in this thread, I put some of your own words in BOLD TYPE in my post #403804 just to illustrate plainly that this anti-gun propaganda is your own sentiment, and not merely reporting on the opinions of anti-gun Supreme Court Justices or Ed Good. I wonder how Ed Good feels about you now throwing him under the bus in yet another attempt to claim that you are not here to undermine our gun rights with your anti-gun rhetoric and opinions. That is why, in my opinion, you are the most dishonest person to ever soil the pages of this online firearms enthusiasts forum. You are a complete fraud, and you would have to be mentally ill to be in total denial about your own words when they are unedited and directly quoted for you.

Selby, Are you ignoring the fact you are signing your posts with an assumed identity as pointed out out by Geo?

Pity that things can't stay focused on doubleguns here, to include the diversion this thread made into long range sniping to begin with, which was undoubtedly a likely start down the road to the personal sniping that often occurs.

Perhaps our webmaster could freeze this thread and let this stuff die again

P.S. Keith, your DR you posted about is nice and when I get the time, I will post some pictures of other Louis Christophe and Jules Bury stuff DRs I have that are similar, though not as nice as yours.

You'd have to be mentally ill to serve those kind of snacks at a card game. What do you serve for lunch? Raw dirt snails and beet juice? Guess Doritos haven't made it to Nova Scotia yet.


_________________________
lonesome roads, Lonny Rhodes, "the Bear Dago" all trademarked

Thanks very much for the kind words about my new .450 BP Express Louis Christophe double rifle. I can't wait to start working up a regulation load for it. At least we're finally talking double guns here, and now you want Dave to lock this thread?

I agree about your idea that it would be nice if this forum remained focused on Double Guns. You may have noticed that my first post within this off-topic and non Double Gun thread was in response to Walt Snyder when he said this:



Since we were already off topic, and King was veering wildly away from doubles, and even sniper rifles, and into racism and politics, I thought it would be informative to point out his dishonest prior statements about a desire to only talk doubles.

Don't you think it is hypocritical to attack me for being off topic when your friend King Brown is such a frequent offender, and anti-2nd Amendment and anti-NRA to boot? And why are you ignoring the fact that Geo apparently uses an assumed identity? In fact, he has told us in the past that Geo Newbern is not his real name.

Will the real Selby Lowndes please stand up?

Regards,

Selby

Actually, I addressed the nastiness of the thread which is off topic. Not your remarks save your signing of a name you appear to have appropriated of another user from another web board.

The "Selby" joke is old, and proof you are not ignoring Geo anyhow. Then again I guess you were only pretending to ignore.

I have not been paying much attention to the non-double thread, which I agree has no place here and from reading the last few pages of it a little while ago has descended past diversion to an even lower level.

I think I actually agree with you that it has gone into the ridiculous.

PS even worse than hockey threads

GO WINGS!!


____________________________
...and the golf...oy vey...

Anybody want to hear about the 28 gauge Beretta Silver Pigeon i just bought at my local Gander Mountain? I think I got a pretty good deal.

I guess we have differing opinions on just what constitutes nastiness. Since when is it nasty to call a liar a liar?

I think it is nasty to post anti-2nd Amendment rhetoric, dogma, and opinions here on a Double Gun website. Since gun rights are essential to owning and shooting all guns, including doubles, I think it is nasty to attempt to suppress those discussions and to protect anti-2nd Amendment Trolls like King Brown or Ed Good.

I think it is nasty to denigrate those politicians who work to actually live up to their oath of office by protecting and defending our Constitutional Right to Keep and Bear Arms. It is equally nasty to support and defend those Liberal left politicians who work tirelessly to infringe upon the rights of law abiding citizens... especially here on a gun enthusiasts' forum... and especially after King has lied about his desire to keep such political stuff away from here. See my first post in this thread, #483788

And I think it goes well beyond nasty to be so completely dishonest as to attempt to deny your own words and actions, as King is doing once again right here for all to see. I think it is very nasty for King to post false information about our 2nd Amendment, our NRA, and the original intent of the Framers. I'm actually glad he does it because I want people to understand that we have back-stabbers within our ranks who post the same anti-gun crap and lies used by every anti-gun organization and politician. Remember, this is the same King Brown who attempts to portray murderous gang-bangers as "children", and repeatedly makes the false claim that the U.S has the highest firearms murder rate of any civilized nation.

But it is very nasty to have to deal with such a complete and total fraud. It is nasty for him to try to tear me down and denigrate me for posting his own actual words. If that is the "lower level" you are referring to, then we're in agreement for once. In life, sometimes we just have to deal with nasty instead of ignoring it and allowing it to spread.

The Selby thing, for those who pay close attention to the actions of the F.A.G.'s we have here, was in response to the absurd exhortations from another petty hypocrite who launches actual personal attacks while proclaiming with his statements and his tag line that posting using our full names would prevent the same nasty personal attack behavior he himself engages in.

I just ended that last sentence with a preposition. Winston Churchill said "A preposition is a terrible thing to end a sentence with." It just gets nastier by the minute here.

https://brians.wsu.edu/2016/11/14/churchill-on-prepositions/

Best wishes,

Selby

Naw. I want to see a pic of King and that nut spearin ' Nova Scotian drinking beet juice out of Lord Stanley's Cup.


____________________________
They got beer and pretzels in Nova Scotia?

Well I asked nicely. I certainly have no copyright on the signature you have usurped. Your non response makes no sense to me though. By the way, could you recommend the boarding kennel services of the Red Woof Inn. What an interesting play on names...Geo

Aiiieeeeyyyy!

Not puns!


_________________________
I flicked a bug of a samich once and put a bottle cap (Stroh's) over it and said, Hah! Cap-tured!

(I was repeatedly punched by the felllers afterwards)

"Non response"???

Are you kidding me Geo??? See, this is why I'm pretending to IGNORE you, and pretending to IGNORE the fact that you are pretending to IGNORE me.

What I am NOT pretending to IGNORE is the anti-2nd Amendment and anti-NRA rhetoric and sentiment posted by your pal King Brown... along with the fact that he is in dishonest denial of his own damn words.

By the way, you still haven't told us why you sat on that old newspaper story about King Brown for so long before you posted it here as another off-topic thread. I wasn't supposed to know about that, was I?

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=442361&page=1

I thought it was funny that a guy who preaches peace and harmony would just wait until he thought the time was right to ignite an off-topic shit-storm. I hope someone lets me know if you finally decide to answer since I am still pretending to IGNORE you in the same way you are pretending to IGNORE me.

Yours truly,

Mr. Lowndes a.k.a. Jack, or John M.

P.S.: If you decide to board your dog at the Red Woof Inn Kennel, you might want to ask them if they will hawker a couple of big green loogies down his throat as King Brown told us he did to his own frightened pooch. Talk about nasty!

I thought you were a Caps fan or is it anyone who is playing against Crosby?

"green loogies"

aka Nova Scotian appetizers.


____________________________
My updated itinerary...Bohpol,India, Nova Scotia

Sign your posts as you choose. Yep, King Brown is a friend of mine and we get along just fine despite his unfortunate political and social opinions. Nope, the kennel reference was not a coincidence....Geo

Back to ignore; seems to work out for the best.

Yes Geo, it is always best to IGNORE someone by repeatedly responding to them! Last Dollar and Larry Brown both do that. I would have bet you were smarter than them.

I didn't comment on your friendship with the anti-2nd Amendment Troll King Brown other than to note that you had possession of that old newspaper article about him long before you decided to post it as another non-Double Gun off-topic thread. You don't seem to want to discuss that Geo. It just seemed strange that a guy like you, who acted like he didn't like the sort of contentious discussion generated by things like that, knowingly and admittedly started a shit-storm... and then responded to my recognition of the fact by pretending to IGNORE me... just as I am now doing to you...

I'm glad your kennel reference seems to make you happy. All it did for me was to remind me about your friend King telling us how he abused his dog by prying his mouth open and hawkering a couple big green loogies down his throat when the poor thing was frightened.



Well, it was nice pretending to IGNORE each other. So until the next time you pretend to IGNORE me by responding to me...

See Ya!

Selby... or Jack, or John M... whatever... a rose by any other name, etc.

I don't think that the term 'sniper' is appropriate to use. Their job of overwatch alone is more in tune with a sharpshooter than a sniper.

But since the word 'sniper' has become associated with the highest form of shooting a rifle its used to designate the very top performance and performer with a rifle.

But the term evolved out of a top performer and performance with a shotgun. Go figure.

Just send me to Hell or Nova Scotia, it'd be about the same to me.


_________________________
https://youtu.be/GhApS7jkmqI

What about your friend Crosby? I'll take you to his place on Grand Lake, in sight of the international airport.

Don't fall for it Lonesome... it's a trick!

He'll get you drunk on some of that hallucinogenic lichen brandy he drinks, and then hawker a couple big green loogies down your throat. Then you'll become one of his mindless Liberal Left toadies who think that lies, bloviating, and anti-2nd Amendment rhetoric on a shotgun forum is good and proper.



Too bad Geo didn't post some photos of his good friend socializing with John F. Kennedy, or Bobby, or Ted, or Martin Luther King... or on a lunch date with Jackie Kennedy... or hangin' with Fidel Castro, or even making some of that award winning wine he always bragged about. Now that would have been something! I guess King can now claim that those images are being held hostage by Photobucket.

Here's the guy who has never seen any anti-gun sentiment in this forum once again denying the Individual Right that was intended by the Framers... in their own words... and affirmed by the Supreme Court.



Sarah Brady, Chuck Schumer, Barbara Boxer, Michael Bloomberg, Josh Sugarmann, Barack Obama, and other anti-gunners would be proud of him.

Jack. read it again. Was an individual right even mentioned? There's also no denying the Second is a living document. As for spitting down a dog's throat, it's an old-time remedy for mistreatment by previous owners, in my case by a handler too ambitious and impatient trying to make it to junior field nationals. It worked. I recommend it. Within six months a dog that rolled over with all feet in the air if I just yelled at him turned into a confident near-perfect hunting partner.

Yes King Brown, an Individual Right was mentioned many times as the Constitution was being drafted, written, debated, and ratified. The words of the 2nd Amendment alone are clear enough King... except for the most anti-2nd Amendment agenda driven zealots like yourself. The other Amendments which include the term "the Right of THE PEOPLE" are never construed to mean anything other than an Individual Right. Why would the 2nd be any different... except for the desires of an anti-gunner like you?

It is anti-2nd Amendment that individuals like you keep distorting and lying about while trying to re-write history. I took the time to provide numerous quotes made by the Framers both before, during, and after ratification of the U.S. Constitution. They should provide clarification to all but anti-2nd Amendment people like you who are in total denial... and who wish to promote a dishonest narrative. Here they are again. There are many more. I challenged you to prove that the NRA invented these or re-wrote history, both here and in past threads. You can't do it... and you remain a dishonest old fraud.

"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

“A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms… "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

"To disarm the people...[i]s the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops.”
– Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

“Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!”
-Benjamin Franklin

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

What Thomas Jefferson is saying in that last one is that your idiotic idea that the Constitution is a "Living Document" is simply another Liberal Left lie. Such a distorted notion would render the document as valueless and expendable as toilet paper. The Framers devised means to change the Constitution, and it does not include lying about the words of the Framers or Liberal Left judicial activism. Your actions here suggest you would rather follow this guideline:

"Our main agenda is to have all guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort the facts or even lie. Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed."
Sara Brady
Chairman, Handgun Control Inc, to Senator Howard Metzenbaum
The National Educator, January 1994, Page 3

As for your poor dog, I would have to assume that it was the treatment of other members of your family that made him confident... not prying his damn mouth open and hawkering a couple loogies down his throat as he was cowering in fear of you. That's just sick.

Sincerely,

Selby Lowndes, a.k.a. Jack Schitt... (you don't know Jack Schitt!)

So, are you saying that 'we' really are not in this together? I know you're well aware that just a handful, good ole boy elite club, of non elected judges have taken the will of the people and replaced it with their ideological feelings, right? Now what sort of big tent is that?

I don't see a single declarative sentence of an individual right in all of the above, Jack. If there are many, as you say, please provide where it's mentioned at the Constitutional Convention or in the House when it ratified the Amendment or when debated in state legislatures.

Apples and oranges, craig? What we're all in together is the looming consequences for the world once the Washington break-down gets outside the beltway.

Appointing judges for ideological leanings is to keep current values within a living document. Remember the moaning here of another term for the Dems?

You make it so easy King Brown. Here's one that makes a singular reference that is right there in front of your dishonest nose. This will be the third time it has been posted in just this one thread:

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

It sure doesn't sound as if Thomas Jefferson was referring to a Militia or a group there King. He didn't say "men". He said "No Free Man..." Obviously singular to all except the dishonest or mentally ill. But you are an anti-2nd Amendment zealot who is in total denial of the truth that is right in front of you.

Do you need one that actually uses the word "INDIVIDUALS" King? Here you go:

“No free government was ever founded, or ever preserved its liberty, without uniting the characters of the citizen and soldier in those destined for the defense of the state…such area well-regulated militia, composed of the freeholders, citizen and husbandman, who take up arms to preserve their property, as individuals, and their rights as freemen.”
-Richard Henry Lee, Gazette (Charleston), September 8 1788
Patrick Henry Gun Quotes[

You still didn't answer my question about the other Amendments that refer to "the right of the people"... and whether the 1st or 4th Amendments, for example, confer only a collective, and not an individual right.

There are many many more historical references to the actual writings, debates, editorials, and speeches made by the Framers and Founding Fathers of the United States pertaining to their original intent about the 2nd Amendment. Here are some more for you. But I have no doubt you will still revert to your long-standing anti-gun positions on the subject:


constitutional convention
George Washington Gun Quotes

“A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined…”
– George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

“And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; or to raise standing armies, unless necessary for the defense of the United States, or of some one or more of them; or to prevent the people from petitioning, in a peaceable and orderly manner, the federal legislature, for a redress of grievances; or to subject the people to unreasonable searches and seizures of their persons, papers or possessions.”
-George Washington, Debates of the Massachusetts Convention of February 6, 1788

“That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment, to use arms in defence of so valuable a blessing, on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion.”
-George Washington, letter to George Mason April 5th 1769

“It may be laid down, as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every citizen who enjoys the protection of a free government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even of his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency.”
-George Washington, letter to Alexander Hamilton May 2, 1783
John Adams Gun Quotes

“A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent on others for essential, particularly for military, supplies.”
-John Adams, speech to US Congress January 8, 1790
Thomas Jefferson Gun Quotes

“No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.”
– Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

“I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.”
– Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

“What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms.”
– Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

“The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes…. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”
– Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

“A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785

“The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.”
– Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

“On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed.”
– Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

“I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence … I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy.”
– Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778
Benjamin Franklin Gun Quotes

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
– Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

“Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!”
-Benjamin Franklin
George Mason Gun Quotes

“To disarm the people…[i]s the most effectual way to enslave them.”
– George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

“I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers.”
– George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

“That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defense of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.”
-George Mason, Virginia Declaration of Rights, June 12 1776
Noah Webster Gun Quotes

“Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops.”
– Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787
James Madison Gun Quotes

“Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of.”
– James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

“The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country.”
– James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789

“…the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone…”
– James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788
William Pitt Gun Quotes

“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”
– William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783
Richard Henry Lee Gun Quotes

“A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms… “To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.”
– Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788

“No free government was ever founded, or ever preserved its liberty, without uniting the characters of the citizen and soldier in those destined for the defense of the state…such area well-regulated militia, composed of the freeholders, citizen and husbandman, who take up arms to preserve their property, as individuals, and their rights as freemen.”
-Richard Henry Lee, Gazette (Charleston), September 8 1788
Patrick Henry Gun Quotes

“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined…. The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.”
– Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

“Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?”
-Patrick Henry, Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution
St. George Tucker Gun Quotes

“This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty…. The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.”
– St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, 1803
Thomas Paine Gun Quotes

“The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms, like law, discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The balance ofpower is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside. And while a single nation refuses to lay them down, it is proper that all should keep them up. Horrid mischief would ensue were one-half the world deprived of the use of them; for while avarice and ambition have a place in the heart of man, the weak will become a prey to the strong. The history of every age and nation establishes these truths, and facts need but little arguments when they prove themselves.”
– Thomas Paine, “Thoughts on Defensive War” in Pennsylvania Magazine, July 1775
Samuel Adams Gun Quotes

“And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; or to raise standing armies, unless necessary for the defense of the United States, or of some one or more of them; or to prevent the people from petitioning, in a peaceable and orderly manner, the federal legislature, for a redress of grievances; or to subject the people to unreasonable searches and seizures of their persons, papers or possessions.”
– Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788
Joseph Story Gun Quotes

“The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.”
– Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833
Elbridge Gerry Gun Quotes

“What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty …. Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins.”
– Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress 750, August 17, 1789
Alexander Hamilton Gun Quotes

“For it is a truth, which the experience of ages has attested, that the people are always most in danger when the means of injuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion.”
– Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 25, December 21, 1787

“If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair.”
– Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28

“[I]f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist.”
– Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788

“Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year.”
-Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 29 January 9, 1788
Tench Coxe Gun Quotes

“As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”
– Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789

“The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American … the unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.”
-Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788
John Dickinson Gun Quotes

“With hearts fortified with these animating reflections, we most solemnly, before God and the world, declare, that, exerting the utmost energy of those powers, which our beneficent Creator hath graciously bestowed upon us, the arms we have compelled by our enemies to assume, we will, in defiance of every hazard, with unabating firmness and perseverance employ for the preservation of our liberties; being with one mind resolved to die freemen rather than to live as slaves.”
-John Dickinson, July 6, 1775
Roger Sherman Gun Quotes

“(C)onceived it to be the privilege of every citizen, and one of his most essential rights, to bear arms, and to resist every attack upon his liberty or property, by whomsoever made. The particular States, like private citizens, have a right to be armed, and to defend by force of arms, their rights, when invaded.”
-Roger Sherman, Debates on 1790 Militia Act
Zachariah Johnson Gun Quotes

“The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them.”
-Zachariah Johnson, Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 25, 1788

Of course, I know it's a waste of time proving anything to you, because you are in abject denial about the clear meaning of the 2nd Amendment, and instead wish to repeatedly use the same dishonest distortions used by other anti-gunners. So how about showing us where the Framers intended that individuals should not have the right to own and keep firearms King. And show us at long last how the NRA changed the words of the Framers and re-wrote history.

Please keep it up you dishonest old fraud. This anti-2nd Amendment and anti-NRA sentiment you keep repeating will be your legacy here.

Joining firearm groups is great....

I do not always appreciate every post you make, keith. But ....... I most certainly do appreciate the effort you made to post that one.

Excellent compilation of our forefathers' intentions and desires.

My best, SRH

Ah, Jack, gotta give you an A for effort. If the individual right were so clear to Americans there wouldn't be a hot and glowing national debate over the Second's meaning. Or thousands of jurisdictions making regulations as they see it.
The word "individual" doesn't change the context. The enduring debate is part of your history.

When Billy Dixon made that shot at Adobe Walls, By his own admission, he was drunk. He used a borrowed rifle (from W B Masterson) and I believe, hit his target on the 3rd try...Billy Dixon, later in his life, won a CMOH. Quite a story!

But this development of the 'sniper' corps to an almost Special Forces level of development in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars was brilliant.

Every weapon system has to contend with high profile media coverage and collateral damage except the 'sniper' who can select his specific target.

Why do you describe it as hot-n-glowing when you've already restated it's judicial opinion and regulation? If you, meaning progressives for gun control, have a case and you have the support, why not amend the Constitution? Why are your fellow antis flame throwing chicken littles? Why not use cool calm intellect and make your changes through the will of the people, not through an unaccountable minority of elites?

Why would the word "INDIVIDUAL" or the singular "MAN" change the context or define the intent for you and other Liberal Left anti-gunners just like you King Brown?

The only reason there is this "hot and glowing debate" over the clear meaning of the 2nd Amendment is because anti-gunners like you are in denial of the truth.

You still never answered my question about the other Amendments that include the words, "the right of the People", and whether they intend an individual or a collective right. Nor did you offer up proof that the Framers intended the 2nd Amendment to deny individual the right to keep and bear arms. You also didn't prove your repeated lie that the Supreme Court and the NRA rewrote history.

You instead did what frauds and liars like you do so often, and danced away from questions you cannot answer.

You grossly exaggerate the number of jurisdictions that are still in violation of the 2008 Heller and McDonald Supreme Court rulings. Those few that still do are doing dishonest and illegal end-runs around the law, and they will not prevail. The only reason there are Infringements upon the rights of law abiding gun owners in some localities is because they have become controlled by Liberal Left Democrats who deny the clear meaning of the 2nd Amendment and violate our Constitutional Rights. Those are people just like you King... and the anti-gun politicians you support and defend.

If violation of Constitutional Rights or other laws made them meaningless, and subject for enduring debate, then it could be argued that rape or murder is OK just because some criminals with sick minds do those things. By your irrational definition, we could just as easily defend segregation, racism, or even slavery.

That about sums up your mindset King. You are sick. You are a mentally ill anti-gun Troll in total denial of facts, clear words, and clear meaning, as patiently and repeatedly explained by the very Framers who wrote those words. And you are dishonest to the core of your being.

Hell, you are in denial of your own words only minutes or days after you yourself post them here. You are frequently in denial of your own words even after I post direct and unedited quotes of what you said. It takes a very sick and deranged person to act like that. It's not at all surprising to also hear that someone like you abuses a frightened dog by prying its' mouth open and hawkering a couple big green loogies down his throat. You have to be sick to do that, and you have to be even sicker to brag about it.

You have been here for years attempting to undermine our Constitutional Rights and freedoms, and I intend to always make certain that you get the credit you deserve. In this thread, you have cemented your reputation as an anti-gun, anti-2nd Amendment, and anti-NRA troll.

President Trump is sending an ATF team into Chicago to curb the flow of illegal guns and reduce the number of guns on the streets. So? Is the problem, once again, too many guns? Confusing...

Mr Brown, Keith makes some good points. For example, the 4th Amendment provides for the right of the "people" to be secure against unreasonable searches and seizures. So is that too, in your opinion, some kind of collective right? Or does each and every Individual American have that right? The answer is extremely clear that it is an individual right. So then, if the Framers used the word "people" in that context to mean an individual right, why would they use it elsewhere to mean a collective right?

It may not be too many guns, LD, but who has them. Jurisdictions all over the world grapple with balancing freedoms with order. Canada has one federal law governing gun regulations. The House of Commons votes on any changes.

If Americans could agree on an answer to your questions, no forever debate. "People" is the catch: what did the Framers mean and in what context with Militia? It's now a constitutional debate, with citizens' fear or favour of appointments to the Court changing laws one way or the other.

Americans as others in democracies choose how they want to live. Canadians are different from Americans because our country developed differently. Americans who support the "originalist" position see my reminding of the constitution as undeniably a living document as an accursed thing.

It's history, and its mention doesn't makes any person anti-gun. That's as crazy as current tearing down of the great monuments of the Confederacy. My sentiment in this respect doesn't make me anti or pro civil rights and slavery. The civil war is history. What next, bulldozing historic sites and national parks?

craig and Jack, my opinion on the Second is in the above to LD and Mr. Gollini. Americans may see all Canadians as "progressives for gun control" because the country through the will of Parliament makes gun regulations without the US ineffable yapping and snapping at each other. I can't vouch for a particular employment of intellect but it falls under progressive, cool and calm, as you said, not from an unaccountable minority of elitists (although youre SC judges didn't just drop out of the air).

king: your insightful, moderate and gentlemanly posts here are much appreciated...yours is a voice of reason...

In 1868, over on the Arickaree Creek, 35-40 miles from where I now live, Colonel Forsyth and a group of about 50 civilian scouts got into a siege type fight with a whole bunch of Indians. Forsyths scouts were all armed with Spencer repeaters. They dug in on the creek bottom to fight. The indians soon learned that the Spencers shot a lot, but not far. On the 2d or 3rd day, the Indians had backed off to a large hill (Squaw hill now) which they felt was safely out of range. A "Very large indian" made a big deal of dropping his pants and mooning the boys in the river bottom. Three of the civilian scouts had kept their "Needle guns", 50/70 Springfields. Forsyth had the three scouts get ready and on a count of 3, fired on the mooner. He fell dead.By my Laser range finder that shot was about 1300 yards. Not a long shot by todays standards but pretty good with a 50/70 with Battle sights. Battle of Beecher Island, is how the fight is now identified

You're doing better than most keeping on thread, LD. Curious. How is the Battle of Beecher Island commemorated: as white encroachment, Indian skirmish opening the country, mention of that remarkable shot---or a bronze tablet with a little of each, an accurate history?

King, your pal Last Dollar couldn't care less about the original topic of this thread. Note that he didn't post here until the subject got turned to your denial of the clear meaning of the 2nd Amendment.

Last Dollar is well known for disrupting any 2nd Amendment discussion, and this is no exception. He is nearly as big a fraud as you. He pretends to IGNORE me because I recognize and point out that fact. Last Dollar is one of the fools who thinks we should embrace and welcome anti-2nd Amendment guys like you into the "Big Tent" of gun owners so that you can more easily stab us in the back.

Speaking of fraud, here's more of your ignorant denial of the facts... facts that were finally affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court in 2008 in two separate decisions, and facts that you remain in total denial about:



Suppose you tell us what you think the Framers meant by "People" and what they meant when they said the "Militia" was composed of the whole people. Are you going to tell us that the "whole people" is just the police and military, or the National Guard, as your equally ignorant and equally anti-gun friend Ed Good thinks?



The meaning and intent of the 2nd Amendment is not now a Constitutional debate King. It is settled law. Only anti-gun frauds like you refuse to accept that, and continue to attempt to subvert the clear meaning of simple words like "People".

But you have a long history of attempting to undermine our 2nd Amendment rights, don't you King? Here's a post form Pete made on 5/6/07 in his post #38538 where he informed you of the findings of the Report of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary US Senate, 97th Congress second session 2/82.



You acted as if you accepted the education you got in that anti-gun thread you posted, but you have always reverted back to the same crap... not just reporting history, but presenting your own anti-gun, anti 2nd Amendment, and anti-NRA sentiments and rhetoric.

This is your legacy here. This is what I can't wait to post as a memorial to you in Silent Doubles. Please hurry, you dishonest old anti-gunner.

If it's a settled law, Jack, there wouldn't have been all the sky is falling from originalists of Obama arrival or consequences of a Hilary win.

Oh, oh, are we working the ole racism angle back into the picture?

The sky might have stayed where it is, but the living and the breathing of our Constitution would be breaking new ground with the folks that have the final say. Would that have settled it, or would they just be getting warmed up?

Whichever side of any argument may be temporarily in power, the party in power would like their interpretation of the "Law" chiseled into stone tablets. It doesn't work that way. Nothing in government is permanent. If Trump stays put, we'll have a conservative Supreme Court for years to come. That's why I voted the way I did...Geo

Looks like Craig had the same thought.

Geo Newbern is correct. Settled law, and even the Constitution itself can be amended. I mentioned earlier that the Framers themselves instituted a legal process for that. I also noted that anti-gunners like you are always working to illegally go around that process by the use of unconstitutional laws, regulations, and Liberal left judicial activism. That's why intelligent gun owners don't vote for or support anti-2nd Amendment politicians as you do King.

I find it odd that Geo Newbern considers you a friend, although you work so tirelessly to destroy something he purports to enjoy so much. I guess it's true... there's no accounting for taste.

It's good to see that you recognize that Hillary and Obama are anti-gun... as you are King Brown.

It's good to note again that you supported him and even lied to us here about his anti-gun legislative activities:



The quote above takes us back to the quote I provided yesterday from Sara Brady about the necessity to do anything, even lie in order to bring about the eventual banning of all guns. You are a good little foot-soldier for the anti-gunners King. You lie to us all the time about your anti-gun rhetoric and sentiments. You often attempt to LULL U.S. gun owners into complacency about the threat that Liberal Left Democrats pose to our gun rights.

If the 2nd-Amendment is ever damaged or eliminated, it will be because of anti-gunners like you King. Wherever there are infringements on the Constitutional Rights of law abiding gun owners, they come from anti-gunners just like you King. You can deny your anti-gun, anti-2nd Amendment, and anti-NRA sentiment all you want, but your continued attempts to deny and refute the clear language of the 2nd, and your attempts to subvert the clear meaning of simple words like "PEOPLE" show us that you are no friend to us.

I wait for the day that I can memorialize you by posting all of your anti-2nd Amendment crap in Silent Doubles as an accurate representation of the Trojan Horse that so frequently lied to us and attempted to undermine us. Please hurry, you disgusting old fraud.

By the way, you still didn't answer my questions.

Sincerely,

Selby Jack John M. Lowndes

keet: your shortsighted, overly zealous and hateful personal attacks here only weaken the strength of your positions...yours is a voice of tyranny, cleverly disguised as a voice of freedom...

Ed,

Don't call me keet. My name is Selby. Or Jack. Or John M.

Why don't you just call me Mr. Lowndes.... and I'll call you idiot.

Ed you are equally well known as an anti-gun Troll here. Your most recent triumph was getting Dave to allow the Second Amendment Informational thread that was pinned to the top of the Forum Topics list to fade into the archives... all because you continually violated the rules and disrupted the intent.

I make no secret of the fact that I hate people who work to undermine our Constitutional Rights. Good men fought and died to give us those rights, and anti-gun Trolls like you and King continually work to destroy them. I guess this is your idea of freedom:

You nailed it, Geo. That's the way it works. Thanks.

Jack, every country disarms by regulation if persons don't meet a standard or violate the rules. Peace, order and good government.

That's the spirit, so it's not always about dc and divisiveness. How else could a lower court way out in hawaii block a lawful executive order coming out of dc short of being on the talking point email alert list? Hmmm, maybe select judges do get their marching orders from their spiritual leaders, 'cept the two younger gals didn't read theirs in time, eh?

Exactly King. I'd say there might be hope for you, but the people you are talking about other nations disarming by regulation are typically those who violate the law. We do the same here, and there is no resistance from law abiding gun owners or the NRA to keep guns out of the hands of violent felons. But there is no hope for you. You will continue to tirelessly seek out any loop-hole and torture the meaning of clear English in order to advance your anti-2nd Amendment dogma.

But many of the nations you wish for us to emulate also restrict the ownership of arms by law abiding citizens. The Liberal Left Socialist Democrat politicians that you support, defend, and lie for also wish to restrict and infringe upon the gun ownership rights of all citizens. That is why so many Democrats wish to follow the lead of countries like Great Britain and Australia, where entire classes of firearms are either prohibited or heavily restricted. We're talking about nations that even regulate the foot-pound energy output of pellet rifles.

Benjamin Franklin famously commented your notions of " Peace, order and good government."

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
– Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

So did Thomas Jefferson, and many others:

“I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.”
– Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

We have no problem if you wish to live in Socialist slavery King. We have no problem if you personally wish to give up your guns. In fact, you probably should be denied the ownership of guns considering your deranged mental state. We already know by your own admission that you have illegally transported your handgun back and forth across the U.S.- Canadian Border, and that you then subsequently denied that felonious act... even after your own exact words were quoted for you. You went so low as to call me a liar, when it was you who was lying once again.

You've also spent several days preaching, posting, and defending an anti-gun sentiment. Yet I'm certain you are so sick that you would still deny ever seeing any anti-gun sentiment here on this forum. But for you lying comes as naturally as breathing or posting your anti-2nd Amendment crap.

Please don't make us wait much longer to post your anti-gun legacy in the "Silent Doubles" memorial forum. Please hurry. Don't you want to see if you can abuse your poor dog Jake in the afterlife?

Old Colonel,

Thank you for re-posting that response to the anti-gunner Ed Good.

The anti-gun rhetoric posted here by Trolls like King Brown and Ed Good needs to be highlighted often so that FUDDS understand that there is a very real and constant threat to our rights from anti-gunners who act as if they are on our side.

They aren't!

I'd much rather discuss our double rifles and double shotguns, but if we allow anti-gunners to erode and eventually take away our gun rights... then discussion will be all we have... assuming of course, that the Liberal Left Socialist anti-gunners do not then go after our free speech rights.

History suggest they absolutely will. See how they worked to prevent Conservatives like Anne Coulter, Ben Shapiro, and others from speaking on college campuses. Note how frenzied they are about Trump and his Tweeting the truth about the dishonest Liberals and the Media. If he was really making a fool of himself, as they say, they should be happy to let him self-destruct... just as I am happy to see King Brown self-destruct by showing everyone his anti-2nd Amendment sentiment and his dishonest denials of the same.

http://redalertpolitics.com/2016/12/22/hated-8-8-conservatives-liberals-tried-ban-campus-2016/

C'mon, Jack. Life so grim you hate and impatiently wait for my death? For reminding you of what you don't want to believe about the Second from former Chief Justice and legal analysts? Seems irrational and unAmerican to me.

Afraid of death? Not at all. Be a great relief. I wouldn't have to talk with you. Katherine Hepburn


_________________________
Thought I was dead and gone to Hell once. Then I sobered up and realized I was just in Nova Scotia. Lonny Rhodes

I'm just sick and tired of having a lying, dog abusing, foreign Socialist piece of crap coming here and attempting to undermine our Constitutional Rights by posting anti-gun propaganda and verifiable falsehoods. There is no joy and no challenge in debating one such as you, who is so totally dishonest as to be in denial of their own unedited words.

There is nothing either irrational or un-American about wishing to preserve our freedoms or confronting abject dishonesty, King. It would be irrational to ignore it, and un-American to permit it to stand.

You have gone far beyond reminding us what a Liberal Left former Supreme Court Justice and Liberal left legal analysts have said while also perverting the clear language and clear intent of the Framers, pertaining to the 2nd Amendment. I have already proven that by putting your own opinions and sentiments which agree with the anti-gunners in BOLD TYPE.

Stop pretending that you are merely reporting what you see from other anti-gunners. You support their positions and you post their lies and nonsense to support your own anti-gun positions. You have been at this for years. Here is some of your anti-2nd Amendment crap from a thread you started in 2007:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=38521&page=1


You still refuse to answer the simple questions I posed. You would still rather evade the truth at all costs. Since all we have to look forward to from you is more of your dishonesty, evasiveness, and anti-2nd Amendment dogma, we'd all be better off if you'd just croak and go to hell, or wherever Godless atheist liars like you go. I note that one of your fellow Canadians has also suggested recently that he would be happy to see you croak:








Satan would probably kick you out of hell for making him look like a goody-two-shoes King. I've known some seriously dishonest people, but you beat them all.

But, Jack, all your comment is coming from an NRA Benefactor. Think of it. A benefactor is one who gives friendly aid. Comments as yours only lessen your authority and diminish the NRA. There's no beneficence in pushing Groucho's famous line. You've had your say as I have mine. To stop sliding further to the margins, consider giving it a rest.

Sounds like the "rainbow" lucky shot Hemingway made with his G&H 30-06 Springfield, hitting a moving lion at great distance in the spine with a 220 grain solid- detailed in his novel "True At First Light"-- Mary Hemingway, not an experienced shot on dangerous game in Africa, had "pricked" the lion with her 6.5mm--

PWH and friend on that 1953 event, Dennis Zapiro, had his double express rifle-- great for incoming angry animals, not so accurate on those running at over 100 yards, so I am told. Glad our Canuck brothers-in-arms are "dinging" the towel-head terrorists at great distances-- a dead terrorist is the best kind, no matter the nationality of the shooter.

Not a chance King.

I am not your Benefactor. I am not here to permit your anti-gun sentiments to fade from peoples' memories, as you have benefited from so often in the past. I am not here to make silly excuses for you, dismissing you as a senile old man as so many here do.

I am an NRA Benefactor... that is true. As such, I do not think that merely paying some dues, making frequent donations, and wearing a hat or lapel pin is enough when there are people like you who work tirelessly to undermine our rights and freedoms. NRA membership is more than a lousy tag line for me King. These are my Constitutional rights you are threatening with your lies and anti-gun rhetoric.

I will give this a rest after I post as much of your anti-2nd Amendment crap as I can as a permanent memorial to you in Silent Doubles. It will be a glorious tribute to you King... I've saved all of your anti-gun quotes including those from the long running thread "Is Kingsley Brown an Anti-Gunner?" You've added some more proof of your sentiments right here in this thread.

Please hurry King. Give us all a rest from your dishonesty and your anti-gun sentiments.

NRA benefactors don't give the NRA a bad name, Jack. Putting a curse on a person---I hate you and hope you die soon, assigning another to destruction---is anathema to common decency, even uncommon among children. No one here is threatening your constitutional rights. Nuff said.

King, you are trying to stir things up when you post on the American right to bear arms.

I really wish you would stick to the politics of your own country. You have a tendency to bring out the worst in some posters. They are easily baited by you.

I support the Heller decision that held it an individual right. It is now and will remain so as long as the illiberal left does not get a chance to pack the court.

I agree with George on it's permanence and add that reality requires work to sustain that and our other rights.

It is not possible to have a civil rational argument about the nuances of the 2nd Amendment and how its understanding has evolved over time on this board. Rational discussion on the subject will always devolve into nastiness and vitriol.

There are unfortunately members on this board who turn to hate in partially reasoned response and to personal insult. I imagine, bad manners, fear, immaturity, an over extremity of belief, or some other fault explains this, but it really does not matter.

I sometimes think various posters here deliberately stir up conflict.

King, you may be technically correct on some points and the dynamic nature of how rights have been interpreted over time, but Keith is correct in that there has always been a belief by many in the individual right to arms. Though that belief has not been always been clearly recognized in the Supreme Court.

While Eldridge Gerry at the Constitutional Convention was more concerned about the collective right of the milita within the state and protecting the states from the federal government; both Jefferson and Richard Lee, neither of whom attended the convention and initially argued against the adoption of the Constitution, were both vehement in the adoption of the bill of rights to protect both individuals and the states against the potential despotism of the Federal Government. They ensured the individual right was in the already adopted Constitution of the Commonwealth of Virginia.

That being said between the adoption of the Bill of Rights through to Heller, through several previous Supreme Court cases no where has the individual nature of that right been upheld in as clear terms as it is now. Descent into how the various rights evolved in understanding through the centuries, is not a value here today.

The use of the modern Supreme Court to achieve what could or should not be done legislatively is here to stay (thank FDR) Just as voting to keep those who would use it against the things I believe is here to stay.

King, I ask you to give up feeding the animals with bait and stick to doubleguns

He would make a lovely corpse. Charles Dickens

Not that uncommon, King.


__________________________
Hell ain't a bad place to be...if you happen to live in Nova Scotia.

Not bad King, the triple threat. You play the victim, the voice of reason, and then you want to shut down dialog. Relax, no uninvited guests in your tent.

I don't think it's about him oc. He's just willing to articulate the progressive agenda, maybe?

I didn't put any curse on you King. You've cursed yourself through your long history of posting false data, lies, and anti-2nd Amendment rhetoric. Your support for anti-gun politicians and your repeated posting of anti-gun propaganda has cemented your legacy here.

You say no one is threatening our constitutional rights, yet you railed on for weeks and weeks when Jim gave his opinion that your fellow anti-gunner, the Nazi collaborator and Liberal Left Socialist George Soros, deserved to be shot. You even ratted on him to Dave for giving his opinion. You actually lied about what Jim said, and even dishonestly edited out his IMO (In My Opinion) when you quoted him. My opinion of you is based upon both your actions and your words.

You speak of common decency, yet repeatedly come here, on a shotgun enthusiasts' forum, attempting to undermine our rights and freedoms by being deceptive and dishonest. You could have kept your lying Liberal Left nose out of our Constitutional Gun Rights King, but you insisted on posting your anti-gun dogma here. You made your bed... now you shall lay in it.

"Nuff said"??? Hardly. The final say will be my memorial tribute to you and all of your anti-gun sentiments in Silent Doubles. You deserve it King. You earned it.

Please hurry.

Your welcome, but I did it to memorialize in context your statement of hate. You have frustrated me several times in the past editing out and or deleting statements you have made.

While I fervently disagree with King and others on this board I cannot find it in my heart to hate them personally, however repugnant I may find their views.

I have found emotion drivened reason deceptive to its writer at times. Further though honestly felt, foolishly done, undercutting the value of the principle being pushed.

I believe hate comes from fear and can become a grievous fault; like looking forward to someone's death.

The civil discourse in this country is currently in a rather horrid state. I blame the illiberal left for the biggest part of this, but it cannot be done without the collaboration of the right in some part. Conservatives can be their own worst enemy.

Our nation is a long way from resolving this problem, and I believe things will get worse before they improve. I would rather they not on this website where I believe if we focus on doubleguns we can get along.

"I blame the illiberal left..."

Well, if they all would just die...


_____________________________
Problem solved. (Your welcome)

King, responding to your comments on Beechers Island fight..We have so many indian battle sites around here that they are just that. At the time of that fight, everyone, Gummint, Settlers, Army, Railroad wanted the Indians gone from this part of the country. The liberals in the east were raising cane about the way the army was killing the Indians, so to take the heat off POTUS, U.S Grant and Billy Sherman came up with a plan. They got hold of their pal George Forsyth , and authorized him to hire 50-60 seasoned men, pay and arm them well, and send them out to find, harass and kill every indian they could find. That way the armies hands were clean. Beechers Island today has a story board of sorts, a few site markers, and thats all..The entire site was "rearranged" by the flood of 1935..

the intense hatred expressed here by keet against king is at the same level of viciousness as is that expressed by some against trump...keet's expressions of ill will here are often below even the lowest standard of civil discourse...as such, he exposes himself as a self focused would be tyrant, intolerant of others who may hold views different than his own....

FYI: To all you Nova Scotia bashers..It is a really neat place. I did a consulting gig in Halifax, liked it...If you aint been there, STFU.

in august, there is no better place to be than in nova scotia...

"STFU"

I'm only 55.


___________________________
How were the sea urchins?

In August there is no better place to be FROM than Nova Scotia.


_____________________________
Don't even F'in try.

Classic curse, Jack. Look it up. Your alma mater taught you better.

If I keep bashing Nova Scotia like I am, LD is going to wish I was dead.


__________________________
Sid got the Cup up there yet? Pics.

Lonesome roads? I don't take much seriously enough to go that far..Maybe a bad case of dierear, but Death, NAH

Old Colonel,

I am just shocked and scandalized that you found hate in that reply to Ed Good that you quoted just to permanently memorialize. I hope nobody faints or wets their panties over it. And I find it extremely dishonest and disingenuous for you to make the claim that I have either edited or deleted any of my posts to hide from them or to frustrate you. I have always answered you in detail, and have been disappointed to find that you only seem to see the parts of my replies that frustrate or bother you.

On the other hand, you have edited your posts when I pointed out egregious grammatical errors, misspellings, etc. in your posts. Sometimes you note that in your edit... other times, you don't. I rarely delete anything except a typo, but do frequently edit my posts to add thoughts I left out.

I already told you that I too would rather see the focus of this website remain on the topic of Double Guns. Debating with, or confronting a disgusting and deceitful anti-2nd Amendment Troll like King Brown or Ed Good is not something I enjoy.

I would rather not waste hours confronting their anti-gun rhetoric, false data, and anti-gun propaganda. But I also don't have any plans to allow it to stand unchallenged when they are undermining our Constitutional freedoms. I'd think that a military veteran as yourself would be especially sensitive to the deceptive behavior of those who wish to undermine our rights and freedoms by the use of lies and deception. But if you think playing Miss Manners with liars and anti-2nd Amendment Trolls in the name of faux civility is more important, then I guess we will continue to disagree. If you think that you are going to change me, think again.



You say you find King's view repugnant, yet the preponderance of your time in this thread is being critical of me once again. Some things never change. Like hypocrisy.

Yes, I do indeed hate anyone who would work to infringe upon the Constitutional Rights of law abiding gun owners. But there was no hatred in my reply to Ed. Calling him an idiot is actually being kind and generous, no? Also, I find it most hypocritical that you don't see any hateful behavior in those who are pathological and serial liars. I know you confronted King for his off-topic anti-gun Trolling, but your weak little lectures have not, and will not change his dishonest behavior. Only death will do that.

I just hope he doesn't get to abuse his poor frightened dog in any afterlife. Hopefully, atheists like King don't get reunited with their dogs.

Sincerely,

Selby Jack James M. Lowndes... but you can call me Jack.

Reckon those sea urchins and beet juice would give you that.


________________________
Go fish

Aint never tried em with beet juice...But have eaten a lot of them in Kalifornia.....Keep the duck

My alma mater taught me to know a rotten pathological lying anti-2nd Amendment Troll when I see one. You and Ed Good are perfect examples of anti-gun trolls.

What did your alma mater teach you? You seem to have majored in lies, deceptive behavior, and anti-gun sentiments. Oh wait, it was Journalism wasn't it??? ... same difference.

You cursed yourself when you continued to post your anti-2nd Amendment crap on a firearms forum centered in a nation where you are not a citizen. Why don't you worry about your own gun rights in Canada, where you can't even legally own a .25 or .32 cal, handgun because of anti-gunners like you?

I wonder how many viewers of this thread find you and your denials of ever seeing any anti-gun sentiment on this board to be truthful... besides your little toady Ed Good??? We all know that Last Dollar will do anything to steer the conversation away from the deceptions of the Liberal Left antigunners such as you and Ed. He's done this many times before. Claims he hates any gun rights discussions, but he is drawn to them like a stupid moth to a flame. FUDDS have always been a detriment, and a source of hope for the anti-gunners.

Tomorrow would be a great day to do that memorial thread for you and all of your anti-gun rhetoric in "Silent Doubles" King. I'm not working, and there are thunderstorms in the forecast. How many people would be so kind and generous to you as to post all of your anti-gun sentiments as a permanent tribute to you and your dishonesty?

Your friend,

Jack B. Nimble

Kalifornia...now yer talkin'...

Can't be as good as a Lafayette Coney. And a Vernor's


_____________________________
Keep your tongue sharp...and your knife sharper.
Italo-Irish-American proverb
(Westside)

I see you making a new reply here Old Colonel. My educated guess is that it won't be about your Louis Christophe/ Jules Bury guns.

For someone who claims he wishes to stay on the topic of double guns... you sure do tend to stray into the field of providing cover for anti-gun trolls.

But pointing out the truth is frequently considered poor form around here. Too bad.

Best wishes,

Jack B. Quick

EDIT: Oops, looks like you had a change of heart and logged out. Considering that, I guess it's safe to say you weren't making a post about your Louis Christophe guns, or putting up those picture of them. If I didn't know better, I'd guess you aren't as interested in doubles as you are in paving a smooth road for anti-gun trolls like King and Ed. You won't change my behavior and response to anti-gun trolls, but death might. So you can always wish I would die. No skin off my ass.

"I see you..."

Make that second million yet, dla? (sic) Almost had you. Don't worry. The first one is the toughest.


__________________________
What's you're (sic) handicap dla?

I call you by your posting name KEITH. The others are poor attempts at humor or deceptive lies

Your shock is either poor humor or personal delusion, your choice.

I note that your words:



Your personal animus admitted in the original and repeated in your denial of hate.

Reference my corrections of grammar. I normally thank you for your kind corrections. Other posters on this site have read my words and corrections and know the truth of it



So I guess I am not being by your definition nasty.

You are not being honest about your deletions and edits. Anymore than you have been in your use of the Selby Lowndes identity which you adopted during a thread in which you were criticized for speaking behind a hidden identity.




even you know your deceptive appropriation is a lie.

You claim honesty and truth are important to you and have proved to me they are not. Your edits are more than grammar and additional thoughts. As I have watched you delete or delete and post entirely different posts, even as I typed a reply to the original. One was when you deleted you initial statements about making negative postings about King in the memorial area which you now echo in this thread. It says a lot about you that you even think in those terms.

I actually expected you would be honest about your edits and deletions it, but sadly you have not been. Perhaps you believe you are being truthful and are simply delusional about you own conduct.

Your name calling uncouthness undercuts and undermines the quality of your arguments and lessen this board.

By you own admission you are full of hate. You call me names for requesting a level of civility. I can live with that.

I doubt you will ever cease your incivility. I will call you out when I believe I should.

To wherever you are hiding on the internet have a pleasant night. I genuinely wish you well, Bless You

Wow!

My shock, Old Colonel, I mean Gladys Kravitz, was indeed mocking you. When I mentioned the possibility of someone wetting their panties over my post, I was thinking of you. I see I was quite accurate there.

Funny that you should just now make mention, and totally dishonest accusations about me frequently deleting posts. I'd think mentioning those transgressions when they actually allegedly occurred would mean something. Making up false narratives to bolster your whiny attack now is simply dishonest, and you know it. I told you about my editing and the rarity of any deletions on my part. What happens much more often is that any editing I do is adding some thought I forgot to include... not deleting. You make this wild claim about me deleting my wish to place King's anti-gun rhetoric as a tribute to him in Silent Doubles, but I have stated that intention literally dozens of times. I have no reason to delete it one time to hide that idea from you. It's not a secret. Don't call me a liar you whiny little hypocrite. And don't feed us your crap about being interested in keeping the discussions here focused on double guns.

I didn't make any denial of hate in the post you quoted. I said that I was "shocked and scandalized" that you found it. That was sarcasm... something you are obviously not intelligent enough to grasp. Then I went on to mock your extremely feminine indignation about it, even as you tolerate and attempt to smooth the path for anti-gun trolls like King and Ed.

Learn to read, and stop being so disingenuous. As I pointed out before, you don't read my replies... you only see the parts that piss you off, and you then frequently lie about what I actually said. If it isn't lying, then we'll just have to assume it is stupidity and poor reading comprehension.

You keep focusing on my name... is it keith, or Selby Lowndes, or John M., or Jack. You are so f***king stupid. You think you've caught me in a lie. Weren't you paying attention to what was going on when I began signing my posts Selby Lowndes? I was responding mockingly to another petty whiny hypocrite and F.A.G. (Fake Ass Gentleman... thanks Lonesome Roads) who kept harping on the importance of posting under our full names to prevent personal attacks. But even as he was doing that, he was launching a personal attack on James M., a guy he knew by name... hunted with... and had even socialized with him and his wife. Knowing Jim's full name did nothing to prevent him from launching a very personal attack, and attempting to publicly humiliate him. I was mocking his hypocrisy, and at the same time, using the pseudonym used by another poster here who apparently uses different screen names on different forums, and one who pretends to IGNORE my posts. I knew he would eventually respond to that, and he did. But there is even more to the story that I'm not ready to share yet. F.Y.I., after our narcissistic and hypocritical F.A.G. did that personal attack on James M., Jim decided he had enough of the bullshit, and hasn't posted here since.

Here's some true facts for you. You can save them and reprint them as many times as you wish. I hate anyone who undermines my Constitutional Rights, and especially our 2nd Amendment which is so much a part of my life. They are no better than an ISIS terrorist to me. If they died, the world would be a better place. I am disgusted by liars like King Brown who are actually sick enough to repeatedly deny their own unedited words. I am also disgusted by an animal abuser who would pry a frightened dog's mouth open and hawker a couple loogies into his mouth. And I am nauseated by whiny nosy hypocrites like you who claim to be so interested in double guns, but are actually much more focused on permitting anti-gun trolls to continue to post their anti-gun dogma.

Call me out whenever you like. You will never convince me to become anything like you are Gladys Kravitz.

[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/-mdFctlvB3w[/video]

I'm up to 1.9 but I just bought a cottage in the muskoka's....so you know.

1.9 feet tall? My, you are growing up so fast.

Is the muskoka's a suburb in Munchkinland?

Well done ,Dal. I'm in Georgian Bay right now. What lake in Muskoka?

Moon river in bala. Just a small get away place.

Of course it is...

"I'm up to 1.9..."

Ah! A financial midget too!

(I don't see the Yaris parked out in front of his cottage)

___________________________
What's you're (sic) handicap dla?

WKM, on your anonymity courage: I doubt you'd behave as rudely as you do to members if others knew the colour of the house where you live, your address, your neighbours, your email address, your employer, which way you turned when you left your house, which lights you turned on first returning from your shift.

I would. But then I'm an arsehole and like to fight. It's the Irish in me.


______________________
Italy is for lovers. Or is it Virginia? Hell, I don't know. I'm an idiot too.

Great spot, dal. My sister lives Lake Joseph. My mother died there.

I'm sure it is. I just hope we don't have to listen to another Canadian sing the praises of Loon Lake now. Nova Scotia was bad enough.


_________________________
1.9. What is that in U. S.?

Thanks king. Surrounded by some very good grouse country also.

U.S, Canadian, Swiss franc....still a good chunk of change.

anybody else here ever stay in one of the giant teepees at Kejimkujik park?

Nah, ed. I stayed at the Red Woof Inn. Smelled like wet dog but at least they had toilets.


___________________________
The loooooons! Katherine Hepburn

Sleep soundly lr.

Did you happen to hawker any big green loogies down your frightened dog's throat there? We know you sure as hell didn't see any anti-gun sentiment there. You'd claim to not see any in the offices of Handgun Control Inc. You don't have to answer. Old Colonel is here to provide cover for you again. I think I'm beginning to see a trend.

Best pizza in the world used to be had at Moon River Pizza on Hwy 69. Land the place was on got expropriated when they twinned the highway 20 years ago. The owner took the opportunity to retire, I believe.

I'm hanging in Honey Harbour theses days. Have had the good fortune to have spent a lot of time up this way. HH now. Between Parry Sound and Pointe au Baril for about 10 years. Another stretch over on Lake of Bays (Shania Twain had the place next door) and I started by going up to Lake Joe in the 1970's and 1980's. I couldn't handle TO if I couldn't get out of the place on weekends!

And you are right about the grouse. Scout did three beautiful points last month when I took her for a walk on the island I'm on now.

We were up in that part of the country a few months back visiting family and the old farm. Nice Country...

WKM, it is easier to see from the margins, where you've taken yourself with your overweening narcissism. Your affliction, your need for attention is the reason you insult members while trying to project yourself as a valorous protector of constitutional rights. We know you can't help it. Reason would take your crusade to where the antis are; there is none here.

Carlos Norman Hathcock- legend in my beloved USMC. His C.O. "In Country" Capt. Jim Land and Hathcock both established the standards for the refined art of military sniping. Gunny Hathcock was nominated for the Navy Cross, after saving the lives of several brother Marines in 1969- 'Nam- booby trap that took out their vehicle-- Hathcock was badly burned in his selfless actions that saved the lives of several men-- and his accuracy was legendary.

He did, in fact, use a M70 Match Rifle--30-06 scoped and set up for long range sniping by USMC armorers-- later went to the issue M40-- Remington 700 in .308/ 7.62mm NATO round- 10x scope (Redfield)--He was the first NCOIC when the USMC opened its scout/sniper program Stateside- Initial training under Captain Land was on Okinawa during the Vietnam War--

Old saying about sniping- "It's not always the number killed, but the importance (Generals, etc.)of the of the men killed by your scout/sniper teams."

I see that you're as delusional and dishonest as ever King, and still able to deny your own words and attempts to undermine the 2nd Amendment by posting absolute falsehoods about Supreme Court rulings and the NRA.

You still haven't answered my questions about how and when the NRA rewrote history or changed the words of the Framers. Nor have you told us how you view the word "People" in the other Amendments that contain the same phrasing, "the right of the People" as the 2nd Amendment. We already see that you apparently have perverted the words "No Free MAN" to have a plural or collective meaning.

Those same things are done by anti-gunners King... not true pro-gun guys. Since you don't see a shred of anti-2nd Amendment, anti-gun, or anti-NRA sentiment in either your posts, or those of your fellow Troll Ed Good, why don't you share your definition of anti-gun sentiment with us? That should be interesting.

I see I've become WKM now. Did Jack or John M. die, or did they go to Oslo for a Nobel Prize? It's hard to keep track of all the flattering things you've called me... "the Fringe"... "It"... "terrible twin..."racist"..."misogynist"..."greedy"..."selfish"..."narcissist"... hell, you even called me a liar for several days until I posted your own words admitting that you illegally transported a handgun across the U.S.-Canadian border... several times. I wonder where Gladys was when all of that name-calling was going on? Since you still travel abroad, I'd guess the Canadian authorities might still see you as a risk. Would you think it was anti-gun if they confiscated all of your firearms and rescinded your license? Or would they just be enforcing the "living document" of Canadian law, and the fact that democracies make choices?

There was even this very sick and strange accusation from you directed at me:



You never did explain that one King. Maybe you can do it when you answer those questions you keep evading like the plague.

You've seen the trend, as you say. Malcontents here at down to one, thankfully. We know you can't help yourself with your hypermale impersonations.

Keith your right, King's responses to you have at times lowered him to your level of kindness and manners

I would hope he not respond to your negativity with the same ugliness.

Sad how your actions can sully a place

















That is just a few of your pleasant thoughts within this thread

Oh, Canada. Beautiful country. Some of my fondest memories of it are of attending the Windsor Ballet as a young man. They have the Ballet up in Loon Lake?


_________________________
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Too little, too late Gladys. I wonder why you didn't admonish King the many times he engaged in name calling and false accusations as they occurred? I wonder why you didn't initiate any threads dedicated to his anti-2nd Amendment or totally off-topic political diversions... going on and on for days as you did... keeping it up until Dave locked it... and running a behind the scenes messaging strategy with like-minded toadies? I wonder why you don't devote the same time and energy to confronting the falsehoods posted by a guy who is demonstrably attempting to undermine our Constitutional Rights through the use of repetitive anti-gun propaganda, and support for anti-gunners?

Actually, I really don't wonder. It was no surprise to see you jump into this thread to once again attack me while at the same time giving him cover, masked by a little cursory third person lecture on the poor manners of posting inflammatory anti-gun rhetoric on a gun enthusiasts forum. If hypocrisy was hamburgers, you'd put McDonalds out of business.



You say you find King's views repugnant. Do you still see the anti-2nd Amendment sentiment you've discouraged him from posting here? King says he still doesn't see any... from himself... or his friend Ed Good, who says this:







Too bad you can't save and quote crap like that Gladys. Are you happy that you saved some verbal meanness directed toward someone who is trying diligently to erode my gun rights? Considering that we're celebrating Independence Day this weekend, that seems pretty tame when you consider that the colonists who had their gun rights threatened, and their breakfast tea taxed by the British, responded by revolting and shooting their adversaries. Are you so complacent that some silly notions about manners... even fake manners... is more important than our freedoms? I've heard many times that a crazy old Socialist in Nova Scotia poses no threat, but a deadly avalanche is made up of single snowflakes. I don't single King out. If there were a dozen other guys undermining our gun rights, lying to us, and denying their own anti-gun sentiments, I'd treat them exactly the same. Just ask Ed Good.

For a few moments there, you had me hopeful that you and I could perhaps have a truce, and an interesting and informative discussion on our double rifles. What the hell was I thinking?

Gentlemen

This thread is about snipers and Canada. Please keep your comments restricted to things suitable for a Sunday such as long range head shots or your favorite dancer at the Windsor Ballet.


__________________________
Thank You

BTW Keith on the subject of how factual your statements are within this thread as an example.

In you first response to me on this thread



Actually you have a bad memory, you show as the third poster on page 1 of this thread when you attacked King



Walter Synder did not post his statement until page 4 of this thread long after your page one post. Your post in support was on page five and was not your first post on the thread

You statement to me was wrong. I do not believe you were trying to deceive, I guess you make so many negative attacks you cannot remember all of them


----------------------------------------------------------


I note in you most recent post you claim which I think you believe is factual.



Just go and look at the innocuous exchange between El Garro and King at the beginning of tis thread:





then your reply:



Attacking a group of people you "hate" because of their statements may seem like not singling any one out but in practical terms actually is not much different.

I have no doubt you believe you are the aggrieved party in your exchanges with King. I think you have given better than you have ever gotten.

A truce all around would be a good thing

Truce or no truce reference double rifles, before the end of this 4th of weekend (before Midnight 4 July) when I get to the house and into the gun safe I will take pics of the Louis Christophe and Jules Bury double rifles and post on that thread.

I know you disagree with my view that most any of us on this board could sit down together, have a drink, find a way to get along positively.

"...have a drink..."

That's all I saw in that entire post.


___________________________
You see how far trying to be a nice guy got me...

Ahh, you've got me on that one Gladys. I did forget about that little jab on page one. My humble apologies to you.

Still, it would be an exaggeration to say I am singling out King when I have jabbed Ed or Jagermeister in the exact same manner. Also, if you'll recall, when you put me on notice that you would "call me out" whenever you saw anything you disapproved of or considered poor manners, I at that same time informed you that I would use any off-topic thread as an opportunity to post King's or Ed's anti-gun statements. The little joke you find so egregious is simply a nod to his frequent off-topic bloviations. I guess I should have stuck to posting more of his anti-gun rhetoric instead of making a joke.

So I guess you're right in this case. No, not "I guess"... you are absolutely right. I did lose track of my earlier mocking reply in this thread. And as I have done a number of times in the past, I humbly and publicly acknowledge and apologize for my error.

That wasn't so bad. It was so easy and natural and uplifting that it makes me wonder why a guy like King could never apologize after he repeatedly called me a liar... until I found his exact words admitting he illegally transported an handgun across the U.S.-Canada Border in his airplane several times. But he still never apologized, and instead doubled down by posting more falsehoods that contradicted his earlier admissions. I guess that's considered good manners and civil behavior around here.

But you are mistaken about one thing. I am not the aggrieved party in my exchanges with King. All law abiding U.S. Citizens who are subject to infringements upon their Constitutional Rights are the aggrieved parties. I do wish more of them would speak up when their rights are attacked instead of thinking that simply owning a gun or even having an NRA membership card and decal on their truck was enough. It's possible I over-compensate for those who sit silently while anti-gunners eat away at their rights like a cancer. But I enjoy those rights, and take them seriously. I want them to be around long after I am gone. A lot of people have asked King and Ed to just stop their anti-gun trolling here over the years, but like a cancer, they just won't stop until they kill the patient. A truce means the sides stop firing shots at each other, but King and Ed have never quit firing their anti-2nd Amendment shots, and there is no reason now to think they ever will.

I don't know about Loon Lake but there are some stellar ballet establishments in both the outlying areas around Toronto and, of course, the centre of the ballet universe....Montreal.

That's hilarious Lonesome. And an excellent idea. I'm heading to a 4th of July Picnic where I plan to do just that.

"The best pizza in the world..."

That's a bold statement, cb.

Ahh, Montre... oops, almost said it...that city in Kwee-beck. The stories I have of that place. Granted I wasn't there at the best of times for an English speaker. Lucky to get out alive. Gave the gendarm-eez, or whatever it is they call the cops the fuzz the heat the Detroit version of the Scottish FU as I hit the Ontario border. Pulled my Wranglers down and told them to kiss my American arse. I'd almost go to Halifax before I'd go back there.


________________________
ENGLISH, MF'er! Do you speak it!

LR, I can say " best in the world" because no one can argue and prove me wrong. It's gone and can only live in my taste buds memories.

On the other hand, Montreal DOES have the best ballet in the world. AND they whip Detroit whenever they feel like it. I mean, what's not to like about them.

We don need no stinkin octopus!

Time to lock this thread...Nothing but the same bunch of Pavlovs dogs slavering and pissing on each others legs...

Who pissed in your sea urchins?


_______________________
Somebody needs a nap.

Part one; scene one
https://youtu.be/Mnb_3ibUp38

Part two; scene one
https://youtu.be/pRE23YfSvc8

Critique & Criticism
https://youtu.be/Ulbvs-DMriM

Soliloquy
https://youtu.be/zoXLKgX0MgU


__________________________
Let us draw the curtain of charity on the rest of this scene. Mark Twain

B O R I N G !

I think somebody needs a changing after his nap.


__________________________
They make Depends that big?

Class act..What do you do after 3rd grade recess each day LR?

Usually detention. Nuns were convinced I was possessed.


___________________________
Guess we're not in Kansas anymore

Done playing, have fun...

As the esteemed philosopher frOm Tenn-O-see would say...

....don't let the door slAp yee in the arse.


_____________________________
We'll always have Halifax...