There have been a few discussions on this subject lately and generally I have been in the camp that there will likely always be a sub-set that enjoys a classic SxS but that it usually takes some number of years and some level of disposable income for that appreciation to manifest itself. And thus while there will always be some market value fluctuations, the overall market is unlikely to catastrophically collapse and stay that way. But I saw something over the last couple days that has me re-thinking that.

I was back at a high end private hunting preserve on a 2900 acre island for the first time in about 10 years (my how time flies!). I had been a regular guest from the very early 1990's to the mid 2000's. The members are typically 40-60 years of age and financially very successful, mostly as a result of enterprise, not inheritance. There are typically about 80 members and no more than 20 guns are accommodated at any one time. Every member could easily afford and shoot several best guns if they so desired. When I was there over the last couple days there were 8 guns being provided for by a minimum of 20 staff members.

When I first started to go, the gun room, which typically would have 60 - 80 of the members guns (and current guests) was at least 2/3 filled by SxS sidelocks, many of them best guns. This week, beside the 2 guns I brought, I found one other SxS, a nice Webley and Scott boxlock.

The vast majority were O/U B guns with Beretta dominating. Guns that in Canada retail for between $2000 and $4000. There were also a few semis.

I think what I'm seeing is a change over of membership as the older set, that dominated the membership when I first went in the 1990's, have grown too old to hunt, and their place has been taken by younger men, brought up hunting over the last 20 years to just automatically choose a O/U.

For the very first time, the guns I brought were probably the most finely made guns on the island.

Any thoughts re: the market.

BTW, despite the temps being brutal for tough slogging through still green and growing, chin high cover for pheasants, the shooting was spectacular for preserve birds. Too many to count and it was way more fun getting getting my eye in that way than going to the range! No dog could work longer than 20 min.

No telling what the guns keep at home, for enjoyment, versus what they shoot, in public, but, I really don't believe this is anything new.
We double gunners are a traditional lot, we cling to wood and blued steel because they are beautiful, but, neither is a lifetime, or, maintenance free product. Few millienials grasp well the concept of maintenance. Most of their things are disposable. Those two facts weigh heavily against typical doubles.
The good stuff will remain valuable for some time to come, but, even on the "for sale" board, right here, most guns listed show a price reduction, and nothing here is ever absurdly priced, to begin with.
Time will tell, but, occasionally, even the best miss seeing the handwriting on the wall.

Best,
Ted

I use my double one day a year on Thanksgiving for grouse. That's about it anymore.

Best requires best service preferably by the maker. Sending a gun to the maker or someone trained by him is a major hassle with today's laws. Buying something that can be locally or self serviced is an obvious choice.

Sometimes, more than that. I owned a pre Royal H&H, with the single trigger that is pushed forward to select the tight barrel. I doubt there is anyone alive today who can fix that trigger. I do not believe it was highly regarded in the era it came from, either.
A Facile Princeps is a beautiful gun. But, if you try to close one when it isn't cocked, you will wish you hadn't.
Most people, especially people younger than me, aren't interested in silly shortcomings like that.

Best,
Ted

I was just thinking something related to this stuff yesterday at the Vintage Cup at Hopkins Game Farm in Maryland. The whole thing was a pale imitation of how they used to be. Far fewer dealers, temperatures way too hot for Edwardian dress, no possibility of walking around to watch the shooters. The dealers who were there had lots of beautiful guns but I suspect that buyers were absent. I felt a bit sorry for them. Hard to believe. Kirby Hoyt must have had millions of dollars of stock laid out, A for effort. But where were the buyers? I hope they showed up after I left. More OUs than previously, not my thing, too clunky and heavy but to each his own. Saw a pair of McKayBrowns that fit me perfectly. I really wanted them but since I have zero use for a pair I passed. Also of course I need the 50K for a couple of other little things right now.

OP is noticing a changing demographic at the private club.

Successful people today especially those still in the workforce lack only one thing - time.

These folks are also results oriented.

With appreciation for the classic designs yet undeveloped and shooting time short, it's pretty natural that they select efficiency over aesthetics.

I still believe that the ultra rich are going to keep buying hand built SxS for the exclusivity of them plus their double rifles.

For the lower and middle market buyers, the handwriting is already on the wall.

I can recall a few pictures of the riflesmith Neidner that M. Petrov shared a few years back. I believe he and some friends were at a match in the 20's. I don't think there were ten competitors in all, they may have thought that classic single shots were fading away from the scene. I don't know what the values will be down the road, but I doubt classic guns and rifles are headed to shreaders and crushers, at least not all of them.

I do think the folks that will be spending their hard earned money on them in the future are buying plastic autoloading pistols and rifles now. Even in some golden era, weren't these guns somewhat limited and exclusive. It's no big deal if they're sitting in the back of a safe or closet, at least they aren't getting beat on or bubba'ed. I don't know how comfortably they are sitting, but low pressure/obsolete length shell makers must have some market that keeps them in business, even if those customers aren't always public about it. I hope the glass is half full.

I will be shooting driven in England in a couple weeks, and I am not taking my own guns. The well known commercial shoot has no SxS's available to rent. Plenty of Italian O/U's.
Yet they ask we wear traditional attire.
Go figure.

I shoot sporting clays reguarly with a group of guys and we mostly shoot side by sides. Not to say sometimes you see the O&U. All are middle aged to senior. There are Purdey's, Holland's, Bosses Piotis and various other makers.
I have started shooting a Garbi 101, 12 bore with long barrels.
English Best's are expensive and repairing a broken spring or some other damage can get costly.
Afew years ago while shooting my Atkin, I broke a left cocking spring. It is a spring opener so the inards are much like a Purdey. Only a few people in the US can even make that spring.
While in for repairs it needed a new hinge pin, a left cocking spring and a top lever spring and a strip and clean.
All in all a very expensive day at the Best gun doctor.
Now I still shoot my nice side by sides but I still favor the old Spainard.

I recently cleared my safe of my O/U's and kept my SxS's. I think that as the younger people age, they will come to appreciate the handling and feel of a trim double trigger SxS. Waning or not my SxS's are in the safe to stay. I attend a number of SxS shoots to embrace the SxS expierence.

CZ, Odd that they would encourage period attire, only to swing the O/U's. It was nice shooting with you today, thanks for making the trip down.
Karl

Thanks Karl,
Same here.

Lord knows, based on the volume of patients in my infirmary, a migration to Italian O/U's is perhaps one of practicality for commercial shoots.

If I am considering a bespoke .410, that's a sure sign I am reaching my saturation point with worn guns.

But that's different than people just not being interested in SxS's anymore.

They haven't disappeared around here although they are not commonly seen. Diehard dinosaurs like myself stay with them by handloading to reasonable pressures. I've never seen waterfowl in all conditions that couldn't be handled with 2 3/4-inch and a load of No. 4s.

At several recent local Sporting Clay shoots, I was the only one shootinga a SxS.

The time for SxS's has passed; but a few of us Old Guys still hang in...for a while longer.

OU's are only a fad. The madness will pass, and people will return to their senses.

Why is it then that when I see a nice SxS offered at a reasonable price, it is sold when I contact the seller.
Any amount of those basket case proud owner overpriced guns, weather SxS or O&U stay advertised for years.
The right thing at the right price will always sell, real estate, cars or guns.
O.M

Hope you are right, Larry.

Do you think percussion double shooters said this center fire madness will end In time and then they will return to their percussion doubles? I am sure some did.

We like archaic relics. We don't care about state of the art. Our state of the art was perfected a hundred years ago. So when we see others flock to plastic guns, to O/U or other non doubles we can't be surprised. Others chase state of the art just as much as we cling to SxS.

In time quality guns will always have a market. Mid level gun to some extent. Low grade guns will only have utility value. Right now low grade guns are very hard to sell. Seems all the cowboys have bought all these want.

In my part of the woods you won't see a SxS on the shelf at the gun stores and not that many at the gun shows. If they are not readily available we can't expect the uninitiated to purchase them. Besides, almost all SxS now-a-days are second hand and it takes a bit of knowledge to decipher what you are looking at. That knowledge takes time to acquire and not all that many are interested.

At the gun store where I occasionally purchase a SxS they are kept in the back to make room for what readily sells. You have to now to ask if anything new has come in on trade or consignment.

The reason is simple AFAIC. SxS's priced themselves out of the market.People looking for a quality gun went elsewhere and were happy and never looked back. Not to mention all the hassles as noted above. And the simple fact that SxS's didn't bother to incorporate modern innovations in target gun design and remained noncompetitive in the only segment of the gun market that pops for high end guns on a daily basis.
The money grubbers did for the SxS. Exclusive? Not many care if it is that much trouble and something like a Beretta SO, Perazzi, Fabbri are no trouble and seemingly exclusive enough.

For all this talk about the decline of SXS's, I wonder who is buying all the ones being offered by the 6 -8 auction houses that I follow. Each one of them having multiple sales per year, with many SXS's offered.

I agree that the SXS enthusiast is a relatively small group in the overall gun buying world, but the auctions seem to sell most all of the ones offered. (in all grades)

Yes, English gun prices are down, but US SXS's are up in price.

Yes! This! Everything SXS40 has said is true. The SxS guns not only sell, but the prices seem to just keep ratcheting upward while people here keep posting about the pending collapse. I only wish there was some way to go back even 10 or 20 years to check actual completed listing selling prices on Gunbroker and other gun auction websites versus actual selling prices for vintage doubles today. If you get the chance to look at the prices in a 25 year old Gunlist or Shotgun News, you will find yourself wishing you had a time machine.

But on the other hand, James (canvasback) may also get the impression that fewer guys own and use doubles because of guys like Jagermeister... who can't get any further than putting one on layaway, and then backing out of the deal after posting here about it as if he had it in his hot little hands. But since Jagermeister also only RENTS a cheap Chinese .22 rimfire rifle, one might conclude that the popularity of .22 rifles is waning too.

I find in my spheres of interest that there appears to be a generational shift and that us 45 years old plus chaps are not in that shift.

Classic cars, classic yacht racing and yep, classic SxS guns are all followed by the older age group. There are, of course, exceptions and some younger fellows who have developed a keenness for our passions, usually passed down by their father or other relative.

Alongside this though, we have noticed that the younger generations are less likely to belong to clubs and sadly less likely to volunteer. It appears that they find in social media what we found from being members of a club. The human element of camaraderie, friendship and fellowship is less important to that younger generation than it is to ours. We have seen decreasing memberships in classic car clubs, sailing clubs, tennis clubs, golf clubs as well as in younger folk willing to step forward to help in the running of them.

The best we can hope for, I suspect, is that as the generations age they will appreciate what we do now. Thus I hope there will be a continuing interest in 'our' guns, that people will come forward who cherish, admire and maintain them.

Tim

I don't think sxs are all that "archaic". OU's have actually been around for a long time. Just took longer for them to catch on. And it took longer to make a reliable single trigger. But, assuming equal quality in both guns, double triggers will always have at least a slight edge in reliability. So, you wed the most popular design (OU) to the most reliable trigger (double) . . . and you look hard to find very many of them on the market. Especially new.

I'd modify that statement slightly, SXS. In both cases, prices are pretty strong for smallbore sxs. Pretty much anything other than 12ga. Supply and demand. A whole lot of 12's out there; fewer smallbores. FAR fewer smallbores in the case of English guns. In terms of "gun for the money", British or vintage American 12's are good buys right now.

Larry, my notion is OUs will find more favour than sxs. I have a 12 and 20 in that configuration, single triggers---Beretta 686 and SKB Model 500---and I hit more often with them (unexplainably).

I see no end of appeal of the light sxs of any gauge, particularly the British, for upland but question the use of sxs for waterfowling because of ammo manufacturers chasing the gullible with unneeded heavy loads, earth-escape velocities.

I don't see as many handloading today.

From my personal observations in my part of the country.

Online sales of lower grade SxS shotguns is flat.
Local (auction) sales of lower grade SxS shotguns are doing just fine.

I attend at least 3-4 firearm, estate, public auctions per month. At times as many as 10 such auctions in a month.

At these local auctions it is nearly impossible to buy a good, clean SxS. They almost always sell for notably more than they would online. Those that sell for 'reasonable' prices are still not bid on by folks like me. Factoring in time to photograph, list and ship, makes them a money loser.

I see the same for other firearms. Probably the best example is Winchester Model 12 shotguns. A M-12 that would have sold online a decade ago for $4-500 won't bring $250 now. At the local auctions it will still bring $3-400.

Why is this the case? In my opinion (and discussion with other FFLs at the auctions) it is because people get old and die...

The number of lower grade SxSs and M-12s on the market has exploded as the greatest generation and older boomers die off. Buyers are willing to pay more for a gun in front of them that they can handle and examine.

When I end up w/ a SxS as part of an auction lot or by mistake, inevitably I end up consigning it to a local auction house to get it sold. I have three I plan on consigning soon. Been for sale on GB for exactly what I paid (plus free shipping) for months. Even after paying their fees I will likely make a few dollars.

Your mileage may vary.

Harrumph! Vulgar advantages indeed.

SxS's, old A5's, plain 1911's, and all steel S&W snub nose revolvers: those are what I like to shoot, am happiest shooting regardless of market trends, or increases and decreases in value. I love how those platforms are put together, and enjoy the fulfillment of learning about them, keeping them running well, or fixing them so they can continue being used.

Obviously the absolute essence of rationality. I commend the English Gentleman and cannot but decry the actions of the un-gentlemanly who saw fit to ignore the True Sportsman and allow such a heinous development to be inflicted on the world.

I know an older gentleman that has over 600 flintlock & that vulgar percussion cap lock guns in his possession. Many are SxS.
I wonder if his estate will dribble feed all those guns into the market in order to maintain some sort of price.

At the moment he will not even sell one of the flinters to me.
O.M

dr. drew: your post is wonderfully insightful...do you happen to know the approximate date it was written...

1817 Letter to the Editor "The Gentlemen's Magazine"

His first patent was apparently 1816
http://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/B019_Bedford.pdf

The last time i went to shoot clay pigeons (not targets, Pigeons !), i took my old side by side. My score was as good, if not better, as the fashion victim with the garish beretta shooting cap-glasses (complete with blinkers, like a horse)-vest-gloves-cartridge bag, etc etc.

My point is the younger generation want the latest and greatest, the guns and equipment the blogs, magazines, youtube tell them they must have. I gave up listening to the rubbish the marketing men spout years ago.

Doc Drew, I'm pretty sure you're aware of the fact that "Mr. Forsyth" was in fact Reverend Forsyth. How a man of the cloth could ever join hands with the devil to make such an invention . . .

Idle hands...covered with saltpeter, charcoal and sulphur...started with Friar Bacon

Another SxS factor to consider....

Most of the SxS's we see are now 50 to 100 years old (excepting a few modern imports). They are wearing out, show much use, etc. Only a few good restorers/gunsmiths are available to service them properly. Most younger people want a new, or almost new gun to use.

Larry, you do know that Doc Drew didn't write the original letter in 1817. right?

It has nothing to do with me, but everything to do with modern gun buying trends of younger generations. Typical well to do working person turns to vertical guns by Beretta, B.C. Miroku,.... or semi-autos by Benelli or Beretta.

More words of wisdom from the tire-kicker Jagermeister... who doesn't even own one lousy double gun, and feels the pathetic need to tell us about guns he claims to have bought... when they were actually only placed on layaway. As if that weren't pathetic enough, our official know-it-all tire-kicker then backs out of the deal, and gives us conflicting accounts of the guns he may or may not actually own, and conflicting stories about whether he actually hunts or reloads ammunition.

Who can know for sure after he has ruined his own credibility by not being able to keep his fictional accounts straight? But this seems to be a common character flaw inherent in most Liberal Democrats who support and defend anti-gun politicians.

Keith up to his usual congenial tone. Since when is the number of double guns you own a factor in your right to express an opinion? I don't recall an unpleasant comment from Jagermeister, bur every time he posts, Keith jumps in to put him down. Who appointed Keith (whoever the hell he is) to pass judgment on who is entitled to speak here. If I were in charge of this site, I'd kick his ass off in a heartbeat.

Of course you would Bill. Then you could get away with concealing your own support for Liberal Democrats and total disdain for those who actually protect our 2nd Amendment Rights.

I know you aren't intelligent or honest enough to notice, but I didn't question Jagermeister's RIGHT to express an opinion. I merely noted his frequent dishonesty about the guns he purports to own, his conflicting stories about his hunting and reloading activities, and the fact that he doesn't even own one lousy double gun. I also noted that such inherent dishonesty seems to be a Liberal character flaw... one that you yourself has demonstrated on numerous occasions. Would you like me to recount some of them in your own words Bill?

A Small Sample Of Rocky Mtn Bill's Liberal Bullshit

But here you are saying this:



A scrawny little Liberal worm like you couldn't kick anything. But how very predictable of you to call for censorship in order to protect your fellow Liberal Democrat fraud!

Just put him on ignore, Bill. You won't be missing anything of consequence . . . other than a guy with a really bad attitude. And who needs one more of those?

Hey Larry, here's a better idea. You could advise Bill to cry to Dave like you did, and beg him to lock the thread as you did when you got caught repeatedly throwing deer hunters under the anti-lead ammunition bus... and blaming them for leaving gut piles of lead bullet fragments that you said were killing eagles. Or did you cry to Dave because you didn't like getting busted for dishonestly editing the anti-lead ammunition position taken by the Audobon Society, and not being man enough to admit it?

And who could forget how many times you responded directly to me after you said you were IGNORING me? You're a real peach Larry.

How long is the waiting list for guns such as Purdey or Holland & Holland or Ivo Fabri or other ultra priced double barrels?

Does anyone know?

if one takes a look at auction sites, such as rock island, amoskeag or julia, one will notice that good double guns are selling for good retail prices, especially when the 20 percent buyers premium is tacked on...maybe not as high as good colts and winchesters, but still respectable...

I have spoken to several vendors accepting orders for new English "Best" guns. Their order books are generally full. As of the beginning of the year, 2 years is the current wait time for Purdey, 18 months for DMB, 3+ for Boss. G&H apparently has a record number of orders in at Boss. So one can conclude that the top end of the new English best market seems healthy. Others may know more.

Thanks Owen, that's what I figured. I know Ivo Fabri has a long waiting list as well.

Exclusivity are for those that can afford it, others need not apply.

Thank you Keith for trolling up another thread into ridiculousness by going after someone unnecessarily and starting the thread death spiral.

You style of insult speaks for itself rather sadly.

Try faux civility, since you care not to practice actual civility.

Hey old colonel, how ya' doing? Just what is it that you find so unpalatable that you would prefer faux civility?

Is it the actual and true fact that Jagermeister has repeatedly and demonstrably lied to us about the guns he purports to own?

Is it the actual and true fact that Bill has repeatedly posted demonstrably false information and Liberal Left DNC propaganda in support of the anti-gun Liberal Left Democrats he supports???... or that he was so motivated by his own stupidity and personal animus for me that he dishonestly stated that I was questioning Jagermeister's right to post here?

Or is it the actual and true fact that Larry got busted by craigd editing out a portion of the Audobon Society's position on lead ammunition bans in order to bolster his false and incorrect statements... and then repeatedly tried to make excuses for such dishonest behavior without either correction or apology?

Or is it all three? And what kind of death spiral would this forum experience if everyone just lied about everything all the time, but did it in a manner of fake civility as you are prescribing? Do you think it's nice or civil that Larry attempts to run away from his dishonest editing and blaming deer hunters for poisoning eagles by frequently suggesting that people use the IGNORE feature to blot me out? I note that you aren't at all concerned about the thread diversion which occurred when the subject was diverted from the popularity of SxS's to an ancient debate about the percussion system of firearms ignition, and the resulting off-topic banter. We still appear to have differing opinions of just what constitutes civility. Dishonesty is not civility. Never has been... never will be. Please don't ask me to tolerate dishonesty again. It isn't nice.

Just what you'd expect from a Muslim loving liberal....the creation of a safe zone inside their own headz.

What Keith does that many others here find annoying is exactly what he hates about PC college students who protest conservative speakers. Keith demands an ideological purity that the world as it exists will never permit. He can't bear the thought that people who agree with him 80% of the time might actually be his allies. By demanding total loyalty to what he sees as the True Path he alienates many who support much of what he wants to preserve, and he confirms the view of those who utterly oppose him that "gun people" are simply lunatics.

I have had Keith on IGNORE for a long time...Try it...You wont miss anything as he has nothing to offer...

Unpalatable? I find your introduction of an attack where none was required, thus pulling the thread into silliness. You forget you started it in this thread.

You suggest ignore for others, but never use the feature yourself?

You mistake self control for dishonesty. Keith, you seem stir stuff up, just to justify name calling persons you have a dislike for.

You are right we disagree on tactics and etiquette and probably always will.

You have a right to free speech here and I accept that. I do not have to accept your baiting and name calling.

Bless you

And now we have the brilliant Last Dollar giving us his two pesos. Of course, Last Dollar and I have butted heads on numerous occasions concerning his insane and dangerous view that we should welcome those who undermine the 2nd Amendment into "One Big Tent". This, of course, is the same view that rocky mtn bill is attempting to push. Bill and Last Dollar simply hate the fact that I see those who support and defend the anti-gun Liberal Left Democrat politicians who are continually attempting to infringe upon our gun rights as Trojan Horses.

You cannot be an abortion doctor, and claim to be pro-life. And you cannot support the likes of Hillary Clinton or Barack Hussein Obama and claim to be pro-2nd Amendment.

I was just reading a PM from one of rocky mtn bill's neighbors in Montana who told me about the time Bill got pissed off because he donated the proceeds from a vintage rifle shoot he had organized to the NRA-ILA. He told me that it was attendees like Bill that caused them to simply drop the shoot, because they couldn't stomach the idea of busting their asses for attendees like him who couldn't stand the idea of supporting the 2nd Amendment. Nice try Bill. But you are not on our side when you undermine gun rights by supporting the Liberal Left anti-gun agenda.

Would you and Last Dollar (and old colonel) like to contribute anything to the original topic of the supposed waning popularity of sxs's? I didn't think so.

Yes I would like to contribute to the topic by other than requesting better manners.

The waning popularity of SXS is a well worn topic posted on in numerous threads. I have posted about it in other threads and was not inclined to join this one until it deviated.

I believe high end best guns will remain popular. The future for mid-grade and field grades will continue to be soft. That is probably good as it allows new enthusiasts to join the hobby. Most of us, if not almost all, did not start with best guns. My first double buy was a Fox Sterlingworth 16 (which to my dieing day I will regret trading).

We are a niche passion and will remain so, but we will remain.

While guns do wear out and the repair can be a challenge tthere are enough usable SXS guns out there to feed the market for years before they wear out.

More endangered than the guns themselves is access to hunting. For me hunting is what my guns are about and I won't own a gun I don't take to the field. I fear that limited access to land and declining game populations in many areas will further drive away those from our sport into other passions they can successfully pursue.

By the way Keith, how did your by name attack on Jaegermeister positively contribute to the thread?

I have no doubt you can justify it in your mind, but you could have made your point on without going after people by name.

The event Keith reports from one of my "neighbors" never happened. I don't get pissed when some of my friends support issues differently than I do. That is your approach, Keith, not mine. If you'd like to post the PM here, I'll be happy to have a neighborly chat with the author to learn what happened and to clarify matters with him. Whatever actually happened, it was never discussed with me. I don't suppose there's any point in questioning Keith's devotion to the truth in reporting this alleged incident.

We agree on everything you said old colonel. Everything... and especially the part about better manners. It is not good manners to post dishonest crap about guns that you never owned, or dishonestly pretend to support gun rights while you actually support and defend those who work very hard to eliminate those rights.

So, your very first double was a 16 ga Sterlingworth, and you traded it??? If you had sold it to Jagermeister, you'd probably still have it, because he would have backed out of the deal after telling us about his new gun.

By the way, I didn't attack Jagermeister by name. I don't believe his real name is Jagermeister. I also note that you don't seem at all concerned when I am attacked by my screen name. And the PM I told you about concerning Bill's disdain for the proceeds of a shoot being donated to NRA-ILA is quite real. I won't post it here without the permission of the gentleman who sent it to me. The one and only PM I ever revealed here was from Ed Good when he thought I was King Brown, posting under another name, and he was congratulating me for trying to bring down the old Misfires forum.

As far as the "devotion to the truth" that Bill is suddenly so concerned about... I'm still waiting for Bill to acknowledge some of the things that he lied to us about in the past. We can start with the lie he told us concerning George Bush's funding for teacher training when he passed "No Child Left Behind." Then we'll go on to numerous other lies he posted in support of his Liberal Left agenda.

yawn...

". . .It's like what you do to a three year old who is acting up to get attention. You can't always give him a swat on his bum like he might need. But if you just ignore him he will stop because even a three year old figures out it is not working. You need to remove the attention they are getting. First step is to not show it. Second step is to not talk endlessly about it. Don't debate it just stop paying it any attention. By that means you will have taken away their platform . . .

It's funny how things sometimes have a way of playing out old colonel. In a rare and timely coincidence, the answer to your earlier question about what I may have contributed to this thread by pointing out Jagermeister's false claims about guns he has claimed to own popped up in another thread on another forum.

In the Classic Rifles forum, there is presently a thread entitled "H. Barella 7x57 Mauser - Tight Chamber?" The author of the thread asks us for opinions on what to do about a fine pair of custom classic Mauser rifles he has purchased, and the 7 m/m apparently has a chamber that is too tight for SAAMI standard 7 x 57mm Mauser ammo. He also provides several photos of this lovely pair of rifles which he now owns. He tells us that he bought the pair on auctionarms.

H. Barella 7x57 Mauser - Tight Chamber?

Pay close attention now to what can happen on the internet when someone dishonestly claims to own guns that they do not actually own:



Wow! Did you see that old colonel? How would you like it if you had sent some unscrupulous seller a check for some fine rifles that were being auctioned or sold on another firearms website by someone who didn't actually own them? This isn't the first time something like this has happened. Once people start lying to you, there is no telling where it may lead. This could simply be a case where the original and legitimate seller had these guns listed in more than one place. If you tried to buy them, the seller might tell you he has already sold them and they are no longer available. Or it could be a real case of attempted fraud which has happened to many trusting souls before. So I ask... would you buy a used gun from this man?

Post # 472881 on 2/22/17- Thread :" 16 ga loads not filling the hull?"--

Post #475337 on 3/17/17- Thread: "Reloading Herter's 16 Gauge Shells from Cabela's"--

Remember, this is a guy who has also told us that he no longer hunts. But if you notice little inconsistencies like this, you will get branded negatively by other flaming Liberals like Last Dollar or rocky mtn bill, because they don't give a crap about decency or manners or the truth... they only wish to protect their own kind. It's not at all surprising to see the anti-2nd Amendment Liberal left troll King Brown stick his nose into this. Little King pretends to IGNORE me, but obviously he can't. Perhaps it's time to re-post several direct quotes of his anti-2nd Amendment rhetoric to shut him up again. And we've seen the pathological problem Little King has with saying things that just aren't true. A normal person would be ashamed. I've saved lots of examples if he'd like a harsh reminder. Care to see Last Dollar's idea of manners and civility?

Last Dollars post #455568 from 9/7/16

Sunset and Vine...

https://youtu.be/3wJR3v1o60E

Puritan and Livernois

https://youtu.be/emsaJvOI94w


______________________
Relax...and drink Limoncello.

Gosh Joe . . . this Muslim loving liberal was in the Muslim world as an intelligence officer 40+ years ago, when Black September was quite active. Understanding Muslims better than a lot of folks, based on having lived there, studied Arabic etc does not = loving Muslims or Islam. But intelligence officers are supposed to understand the culture and the people of the countries to which they're assigned. Guess you never heard of "know the enemy". Kinda helps you figure out how to defeat them. But hey . . . back during WWI, it wasn't very popular for German Americans to speak German. In fact, it was made illegal in some places. Guess some folks just couldn't get their tiny brains around the idea that having some of those German Americans in the military might come in handy . . . interrogating PW's, translating captured documents, etc. No sir, no one should be speaking that evil Hun language in this country!

I thought maybe we might have grown up a bit since then. Then along comes Joe . . . easy to understand why he's homeless.

I can’t understand why I’m lonesome. Never had a clue.


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I’m so lonesome I could cry.
https://youtu.be/lCgicPdsxxg

Yikes, so much for the one or two bad apple mantra.

Well this thread sure took a turn for the worse . . . Oh, well, just goes to show you that an appreciation of fine things (double guns) does not necessarily equate to good manners.

Anyway, last night I pulled the Buy-it-now trigger on what I hope will be a lovely shotgun. It was presented as a Stensby English Double. The pictures weren't the best but it's clearly a boxlock and appears to be in decent, though somewhat aged condition. Stensby was a Manchester-based manufacturer/gun shop that began in 1810 and lasted until just a few years ago. Supposedly the gun has 2-3/4 chambers. I'll see it tomorrow. The seller only lives an hour away.

Best of luck on your find, Bladeswitcher.

Maybe it would be best to let this thread drop out of sight but since you wished me luck . . .

I met the seller today and took possession of the gun. It's a bit rougher cosmetically than I would like but the gun is sound. It locks up tight. It also seems to balance and handle nicely. It has 30 inch barrels, the left being choked. Bores are "pretty good." Chambers are indeed 2-3/4. Looks like it's had some (amateur) work throughout its life and the buttstock appears to be refinished. The only "Stensby" anywhere is on the rib -- the rear of which has turned brown, providing a rather unusual contrast to the still-blue barrels. I wonder if it wasn't a Birmingham gun that was finished out (or simply labeled) in Manchester.

Had I seen this gun in a shop I might have passed but it was a Gunbroker deal. I don't think I'm hurt any. The gun is worth at least what I paid and probably a bit more. Plus it came with a nice case.








ETA: Found this photo of Stensby's shop. I believe they closed sometime around 1990.

Beautiful!!! That's one sweet Brit you just bought.

Blade switcher that is a sweet gun

Stensby’s was my go to Gunsmith when I worked in Manchester, and they did put their name on some good looking guns. It did cease to trade but I believe now that John Farruggia of the Cheshire Gun room has acquired T. Stensby & Co.

Very nice. It also has heavy 1 1/4 oz. proof. I have a Stensby that I've been shooting for 30 years and it's been a good gun.

I wouldn't shoot heavy 1 1/4 oz. American shells in that gun. FWIW.

I don't shoot heavy loads in ANY gun I own.

Hey we all seen your azz when you went to MexicO to never return...what a damn joke.

Since there's no chamber length marked on the barrel flats, that dates your gun sometime between 1904-25. Very plain, but since it's in solid condition, should make a good shooter. Given the 1 1/4 oz proof, it was almost certainly chambered 2 3/4" by the maker.

With a Greener crossbolt no less. I bet that baby locks up nice and tight.