I have always reloaded with AA or Claybuster wads, and Never gave it much mind. When reading about a UK specific guns with recommended use of lead only with fiber wad. I asked myself why only fiber, and does anyone in the U.K. Shot plastic wads? I guess I am a little clueless of why the specific difference.

Maybe, the game keepers don,t want plastic wads laying all over the place. is there that big of a difference on how choke acts with plastic verses fiber.

Plastic wads do pattern tighter. Many places just don’t want plastic anything left behind. Seems minor to us but they last a long time and enough of them will be seen as trash in the end. I’ve picked up countless old plastics empties, over the years but almost no paper shells. Makes sense to only use quickly broken down wads if possible. I’ve tried the biodegradable wads but finding them was a bit of a bother. And I always wondered how fast do they break down and under what conditions? Sunlight over several years might technically be biodegradable but in truth, under those limitations, it means they will clutter things up for years. They do if they last like biodegradable targets last.

https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/fibre-vs-plastic-wads.808267/#post-7583543

Dr. A.C. Jones
http://www.shotgun-insight.com/fibreVsPlasticSporterShells.html
"…the patterns over the 9-shell average are almost identical. The distribution of pellets in the 10", 10-20" and 20-30" areas are almost identical. Similarly the probability if hitting the small area of an edge on clay is almost identical."
"What this means is that there is no evidence of the fibre wad shells having inferior patterns. This includes any effects of the wad affecting the centre of the pattern or shot deformation leading to more fliers."

re: pressures. Fiber wad shells tend to be slightly lower
http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=222102&page=all

http://www.firearmservice.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page19.html
GameBore 2 1/2" 12ga Pure Gold plastic hull with fiber wad 1oz. @ 1295 fps - 7832 psi
Gamebore 2 1/2" 12ga Traditional Paper hull with fiber wad 1oz. @ 1295 fps - 6526 psi

I think that they will be banned in the U.K. within a few years. Denmark are set to phase them out. Plastic pollution is becoming a real worldwide problem and everyone needs to do their bit. Here we have always had fibre wads available and they are the most popular type. One clay shooting club I go to have never allowed plastic wads in all its time and I have been going there since the early 70's. A lot of U.K. clay grounds are fibre wad only. I only use plastic wads at one ground I go to where they land in a specific area in a quarry type ground and the ground is regularly skimmed to retrieve shot for scrap and the wads are re-cycled. Most game shooters use fibre as far as I know. The main problem is in steel shot ammunition but Gamebore for one are experimenting with a fibre cup wad for steel. No right minded person would leave plastic cartridge cases lying about whether they re-load or not but not everyone thinks about the plastic ejecta that seems to disappear. Paper case cartridges are available from most U.K. dealers but are slightly more expensive. No, it's fibre wads for me and always has been for general sporting use. It is just easier and quicker for manufacturers to load ammo by machine with plastic wads. Lagopus…..

Legopus you tend to think in O/U or SxS terms. 90+% of hunters in the US use semi autos or older guys use pumps. Hull ejection into weeds become quickly lost only to show up next year after weathering the elements. So it’s not all slob behavior by most but I’m sure a little of it is. Then sometimes hulls are left for a reason.

Years ago we use to drop paper hulls on the ground when we found zero birds while quail hunting. Even back then, prime locations sometimes had no birds. The hulls were gone in a year. I have heard several others say that they found many of them but never found our secret coveys. Asked a couple if they tried several times and they had. Figured their wasted efforts meant they weren’t hunting real coveys.

Had one fellow admit he hunted my land often in spite of not having permission and it being posted. Funny thing was he had no clue he was talking to the owner. So I did mention several of the hull dump locations as possible better places to try. Told him the fellow who owned the land he hunted was known to either call the game wardens or just let the air out of a truck tires as a warning to not come back. Not a nice fellow sometimes. That kind of slob hunter, who hunts where he knows he’s not welcomed, gets zero breaks with me. Had a couple duck hunters using my blind back in MD last year. Game warden checked them knowing they had no permission. Things went bad for them after that. Had lead shot and a couple funny cigarettes they had been smoking. Don’t know what that cost them but it was going to be a lot I’m told. Can’t fix stupid.

"Hulls dumps" and "secret coveys of quail"...I can officially say I've heard it all now.

The bird dogs I hunted over would've made quick work of your "secret coveys".

Your stOry kinda reminds me of a Mexican my buddy saw running water over a car tire looking for air leaks.

Only one small problem the tire wasn't on a rim.

You think he was looking for a "secret" air leak ?



Now there's something "secret" we can get eYe to eYe on....

I'm a landowner, and we shoot my land a lot for doves. I've never been a stickler about guests picking up every hull. Most try to, but when they are left behind inadvertently, I have found that they deteriorate much faster than most think they would. In a couple years of lying in the sun they plastic begins to fade in color and become very brittle, a sure sign of ultraviolet breakdown of the plastic.

I have occasionally found the brass case head of hulls my Grandaddy shot while hunting this land. They are precious to me, and I pause and think that he may have shot into a covey right where I'm standing many years ago. Those were, of course, paper hulls.

I'm not a slob, and I care for my land and try to be a good steward of it for my time here, but I don't get all jacked up over a few hulls or wads that eventually break down due to UV anyway.

JMO, YMMV.

SRH

IME, most Brit guns have barrels and chokes regulated for fiber wad loads. I have loaded fiber (and plastic) for some years and do not notice much difference in their ability to kill birds.

I have loaded a lot of fodder with fiber wads and 'Kwik cert" shot wrappers and like them as well. I am currently loading some fiber wad 2-1/2" roll crimped 12 ga. loads for my Atkin and looking forward to seeing how they perform.

Joe, you might be as secretive about your favorite turkey spots as we were about their favorite quail spot. That is when we still had quail. I knew fellows who would park with their trucks out of sight so others did not see where they hunted. Fellows tried to protect their go to spots.

The hull dumps were a disinformation just like a fisherman who tells someone he caught all these fish one creek over from where he did. Often you knew who was trying to poach your favorite spots. And quail hunters will tell you that just because your dog does not find quail here today does not mean they are not around. Just smarter than your dog or you. I've seen quail fly a hundred yards out of the wood into a feeding area and then fly directly back. A dog has almost no chance of ever finding that covey. But if they are feeding, when you come along, you can locate them and shoot them. That's just dumb luck and timing. The hull dumps just give people an idea that quail have been here before and might come back so best to check them.

I made the mistake of taking a fellow hunting who I later found out had a nasty habit of returning later, back to the same spots we had hunted. Blood sucking poacher is what I call that fellow. He made the mistake of returning to a farm I did not own but did have permission to hunt. The lady who owned the farm found his truck and cut all four valve stems out of his tires. She often did this to trespassers, even did this once to the Game Warden not in a state vechile. She was a tough old lady who took nothing from anybody. Hard as nails. I doubt he ever hunted on her land again.

One reason fibre only wads on some estate shoots in the UK is that plastic wads play hell in ungulates' digestive tracts. The property on these estates often have sheep grazing when there are no shoots. At least that's what I've read... Gil

Makes sense Gil.

Quite funny how Ky is ignoring me one minute and replying to me the next...must be he gets too much fiber at his hull dump.

Interesting, Gil.

Wonder how I could entice deer to eat them?

Dang, I'm sick of the things! There was three fresh killed (by cars/trucks) between my house and Girard yesterday, 6.5 miles.

SRH

Deer are a pestilence. Their numbers are nearly out of control in some areas in. MD. On our farms hunters are given a quota. Harvest X number or your lease will not be renewed. I now pay half the cost of processing them if donated to the local food bank. I want 150 taken out of the population, I would love 200+ and the farmer would like twice that number. Even then I know others will just move into the empty space. But something must be done because nothing expands forever before it collapses due to disease.

It’s unreal the number of deer we have in MD. Look at any field in September or October and you will see from half a dozen to several dozen deer broken up into small groups. How any crops manage to make it to harvest is a mystery to me. so Stan I feel for you because I know you have the same problem with all the timber around every little field. Sleep in the woods and eat in the fields.

Same problem here. Crossbows flying off the shelves.

Thankful there is a huge mast crop here this year. My live oaks in my yard are already raining acorns. Deer come up next to the house and eat them at night. When they're eating acorns they aren't eating crops.

Wish acorns fell in the spring instead of the fall.

SRH

The only real deer solution is called shoot and forget.

At one time Tennessee issued crop depradation permits farmers were allowed to shoot deer but they couldn't use the carcass or rack for anything.

Then some limp prick got involved and let people shoot them and utilize the meat and horns...all that did was open an early trophy hunt for a lot of people.

That is not a solution, either. You cannot kill enough of them to make a dent, even with depredation permits. Take my word for it. I could shine a spotlight behind my house, across the peanut field, right now and see many sets of eyes. And, I killed 9 this summer, out of that field, while kneeling on my back porch.

SRH

Deer have become a big problem for the farmers east of Yuma. Five years ago there were no fences on the fields, but now there are miles of six to eight-foot wire fences on fields to be planted with lettuce and other crops. One farmer we talked with in September told us the he recently counted something like 80 deer in a single field. This is right at the Gila River on the edge of nothing but desert. He encountered a mountain lion in that same field.

We have in years past kill 75 or more deer on several of my farms. Let that number sink in 75 on each farm. Not counting hunting seasons Did it make a difference? Perhaps, but not long term. We also had a lady seriously injured when a deer jumped into her car while she was driving home about half a mile from my farm. When she later found out we were reducing the numbers she told us to kill them all for her. Bambi hitting her car and putting her into the hospital convinced her to no longer be anti hunting.

Unless you go to extremes shooting a few is only a temporary solution but at least it’s something. The DNR is not doing squat about the deer population problem. When deer eat 20-40% of your crops a farmer has no chance to earn a living. So either the deer need to die or the farmer might as well find another way to earn a living.

I hear a lot of anger here from deer hunters in Georgia over deer losses by coyotes during the fawn drop season. There have been published articles about some counties being dangerously close to the "predator pit" issue where once predators get the upper hand, no amount of reproduction can balance out the losses. Around here, the DNR is catching grief over the coyote population and deer population reduction. It seems someone is always complaining about lack of action by the DNR. Politics are often involved in controlling DNR action. For instance, a group of saltwater fishing guides met with local DNR to lower redfish limits as the 5 fish limit was impacting the number of fish. SC and Florida have far lower limits. The DNR said their hands were tied because they must first do a "study" before lowering limits. The legislature controls the funding which must be in place for studies. Another example of politics was the legislature's allowing hunting over feeders. On a radio program, a DNR representative said that the decision to allow baiting for deer was not based upon game management principles but was based on political reasons. Damned if you do; damned if you don't. Gil

I bought some 2 3/4 12 ga. fiber wad shells to see how they would perform in my 3" chambered Win. 101. I suspected there would be gas leakage and the possible balling of shot. Alas a torn rotator cuff has put a hold on this experiment.
Has anyone else tried 2 3/4 fiber wad shells in 3" chambers?

The farmers around here are, including myself, diametrically opposed to what the deer hunters want concerning the coyotes. As I have said many times, coyotes are the farmer's friend. Coyotes eat deer, deer eat row crops ...............do the math. For any here who may feel that coyotes are not an efficient predator of deer, allow me to enlighten. A turkey hunter here found a coyote den a couple years ago and set up a trail camera nearby. That spring alone the mama 'yote brought eight fawns to her pups, that she had killed. I'd say that's pretty effective predation for one dog. And, to further bolster my high opinion of them as a predator, they catch and eat many, many wild pigs/piglets year 'round, too.

Quickest way to get a free pass off my land is for me to find out that you shot/shot at a coyote. I don't mean to sound like a tyrant, but it's my tens fo thousands of $$$ that the deer are eating every year, not my guest's.

SRH

Welcome Bill. The issue of short shells with fibre wads in long chambers was discussed in theory by Mr. Griffith back in 1897, but was not included in his experiments
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA234
Scroll down to p. 237

How did the Mearns do with all the rain in SE AZ?

I'm afraid we were busy selling the ranch, cattle, equip., etc. and I had no time to hunt, much to the chagrin of the girls(GSP's). We've moved just North of Scottsdale with dogs and horses. I tore my rotator cuff at the ranch running out with a gun to shoot a chula that was fighting with the dogs. I had surgery in May and the recovery is good but I won't shoot until next year.

There were a lot of 1960s ducks killed by the 2 3/4 inch fiber wad shell in the right barrel of my 3-inch chambered Super-Fox. I only carried those expensive 3-inch shells in the left barrel.



The Pheasant is the first one I ever shot with the straight grip, 28-inch barrel, 12-gauge, 1914-vintage A-Grade Ansley H. Fox that has come to be known as "Meat-in-the-Pot,"

Borderbill, I use felt wad cartridges in all manner of guns and never seem to have any problems. The cormorant I shot this morning with an Eley felt wad magnum load from my semi auto couldn't tell. And yes I did search for and pick up my empty plastic case. In practical use it matters little. Welcome to the site by the way. Lagopus…..