While plundering around on the 'net reading this morning early I stumbled across the website for Aegis Academy. Cliff White had posted a brief history of the shotgun there, but what caught my eye was this photograph of two shotgun muzzles. I have never seen this, nor heard of it. I also copied and pasted a paragraph from his history relating to the "devices".
Knowing that a lot of us here are of the Vietnam War era, and are vets, I wonder if any of you knew of these, or ever had the opportunity to deploy one and test it's actual effectiveness.
From White's history -----
"During the Korean War the shotgun became the guard weapon of choice because of its great effectiveness at close range. The US Navy SEAL Teams used a modified ‘duck-bill’ shotgun for walking as a lookout in the thick jungles of Vietnam. The muzzle of the barrel had a side-cut type of choke system that would produce a horizontal pattern with devastating effects. The weapon of choice was a pump-action Ithaca 10 gauge with 00 buckshot, while the Remington 870 12 gauge was used with great effectiveness as well."
I apologize for the poor quality of this pic, but I had to take a pic of the computer screen with my cell phone.
Thanks, SRH
Should be standard issue for U.S. Boarder Agents on the Mexican boarder.
If you watch the videos on the Paradigm site the spread is pretty amazing. Looks like what I need for those pesky rabbit targets on the sporting clays course.
SRH
Wouldn't work too good on a jumper.
Stan- I was an Armorer (2112 MOS) in the 'Nam era- never saw one of these "special ops". shotguns in my 8 years in the USMC- But I wonder about the Ithaca pump (M37) in 10 gauge. Ithaca at one time had marketed a 10 gauge gas operated semi-auto shotgun, but to the best of my knowledge, never in the M37. If I had to pick a 12 gauge pump for Special Ops- with an option of this spreader device (knowing that I abhor "muzzle gadgets"-- The Ithaca M37 would be at the "bottom of the barrel" for my selection. Either the Rem 870 or the Mossberg 500 would be first choice- and that's quite a statement from a die-hard Winchester M12 man.
I don't shoot many SC events now-a-days, but learned to use 7&1/2 loads for the "running rabbit" targets- 8's for the other ones. Just curious, would you use the "duck-billed" gun for other targets on the course, or just the rabbits?? RWTF
Weird, One of my friends who was in Vietnam in the early 60's, before LBJ started the official war carried only a Pump shotgun and a .45 he told me.
wonder if using one of these would improve my skeet score...
I don't shoot many SC events now-a-days, but learned to use 7&1/2 loads for the "running rabbit" targets- 8's for the other ones. Just curious, would you use the "duck-billed" gun for other targets on the course, or just the rabbits?? RWTF
Sure......turn the tube 90 degrees and use it for a springing Teal!!!!!!!!!! LOL
Gotta ask RWTF...why on God’s green earth would a 37 be at the bottom of the barrel?
Fewer parts. Action designed as to prevent crud and water from getting into it. Easily taken down. No disconnecter. Light weight. Tough as nails.
I personally think the 37 is a beast of a trench, riot, jungle gun.
This also coming from a die hard Mod. 12 guy.
I might add that true 37 Trench guns (WWII) are highly collectable. There weren't that many made. 37 Riot guns are not that unusual.
I'm a diehard M37 owner, but I can see in a combat situation where it might be easier to slap one round into an empty, open chambered M500 or 870 than it is to speed load an M37 for that one shot with your life on the line. The follower arms of the M37 have to be just right and touching the "roof" of the action to drop a round into position with the gun upside down for the bolt to shove it into the chamber with one motion. It can be tricky enough to do it in broad daylight without stress. Otherwise, the round must be shoved into the magazine and the action cycled back and forth to load the chamber.
My late friend Bucky carried an M37 and a 1911 in Vietnam. His preferred round was the flechette round which carried 20 steel darts in a 2.75" 12 ga. shell. Bucky wore his old boonie hat when we quail hunted and what I remembered about his old hat was he had a couple of flechette darts stuck in the band. Maybe Walt can share what he knows about the Ithaca Platypus.
Gil
Picture of Twin Brother at Dak Pek, Special Forces camp (A-242), RVN, Dec 1967 carrying a pump shotgun on a Medcap patrol. Don't know the model but it might have been M37. He didn't carry it on long range missions. Dak Pek was surrounded by 7,000'+ mountains. You went as light as possible when going out of the vale. (I flew up there once in a Fac in I think late June 1968 after a mission into Laos. It was incredible..You flew between huge green jungled mountains following the Dac Poco river with amazing rapids, and suddenly there was the dale.....yellow, on green, on mauve on purple on blue.....
https://www.amazon.com/Assault-Dak-Pek-Special-Team/dp/0804118361.
Remington 870 has been the standard shotgun for MSG's in American Embassies abroad for 50 years. It is the gun recommended for home protection by multiple USG agencies.
Just curious, would you use the "duck-billed" gun for other targets on the course, or just the rabbits?? RWTF
Foxey it was a jOke...
And Sir- you answered the question put to me in a previous post to this thread. Plus, the Browning designed Rem M17 that later became the Ithaca M37-- there is not the heavier receiver wall behind the bolt, when it is in battery, or rearward in the ejection-recocking mode- as with the M12 and the 870. That is one of many reasons I would not rely on a M37 trench or riot gun in a SHTF scenario.
My main reason for preferring a M12 over all other pumpguns extant, is that I have been shooting them for 62 plus years "hand running", and like a M-1 Garand or M-14 rifle, or a 1911-A-1 .45, I know how to field strip, shoot, reload under dark dead midnite -in the rain, snow, whatever. I don't have to think about where all the "Go-Buttons" are.
When all the piss-headed Hippies were trying to loot/destroy NG Armories, and other Stateside military installations, I was station at Quantico- and our CO passed the word that the Armory and ranges and ammo storage (including explosives) would be on a 24-7 armed patrol--we carried .45's and either M12 or the older M-97 riot issue (20" cyl bored) shotguns, many Parkerized and bearing the flaming bomb Ordnance stamp on the receiver.
I was the NCOIC on a night detail--1800 to 2400 hrs. I had to check in and out the weapons detailed above to the men on guard detail-- we carried the .45's "locked, cocked and ready to rock", but the riot shotguns carried 5 rds. in the magazine, chamber empty- if a Marine challenged an intruder, he was taught to rack a round into the chamber- but to unload his weapon after his guard detail was completed.
One of the Pfcs. was issued a WW1 surplus M97 trench gun- he racked in a round, left the hammer rearward, and came back into the duty hut and dropped it into the wood rack, muzzle up- You guessed it- the shock caused the hammer to fall- and a load of 00 buckshot went through the tin roof of the Quonset hut- also shattering a large overhead light--
Long story short- the entire Base was alerted- I told the culprit to stand fast, leave the M97 where it was, and in a heartbeat, an Officer bolted through the door, with the BN 1st. Sgt. right behind him-- I gave them a detailed description of the FUBAR, then the "Top" told me to secure and unload the weapon--
The Lt. asked "Top" how long would it take to get the roof repaired, the light fixture replaced, and a general policing of the entire facility- "Sir, Top Duall replied- with 18 years behind his hash marks, against 6 months for the "Boot Brown-Butter Bar" Lt. I can have all this squared away in 24 hours- but I have to add- it's gonna take a month of scrubbin' with them Brillo pads to get those brown stains of the cement deck"--
PS- after that, we 'shit-canned" all the M97's in the Armory- 5 maybe, if I remember- complete detail strip, we salvaged the buttstocks, forearms, magazine springs- but all receiver parts were cut up and destroyed. Hell of a note..
I'm a diehard M37 owner, but I can see in a combat situation where it might be easier to slap one round into an empty, open chambered M500 or 870 than it is to speed load an M37 for that one shot with your life on the line. The follower arms of the M37 have to be just right and touching the "roof" of the action to drop a round into position with the gun upside down for the bolt to shove it into the chamber with one motion. It can be tricky enough to do it in broad daylight without stress. Otherwise, the round must be shoved into the magazine and the action cycled back and forth to load the chamber.
Yea. All of that happens about as much as a single action bar (Mod 12, 37, 31, etc) binding up. Which is practically never. The only time I’ve ever seen that issue (follower arms) on a 37 is on clapped out, abused jalopies. Any gun is going to have issues if it’s out of tune, right? Feed ramp spring bust..most all pump guns & autos are going to be busted. Happens often enough. Properly cared for, well maintained, properly tuned guns are usually 99.9% reliable.
The preferred Bear gun for a lot of years for many guides up in the AK was a cut down, extended mag 37.
Dustin, I screwed up the nomenclature. Shell "Carrier" is what I meant when I referred to "action bar". Because of the barrel of the M37, M17, is screwed into the receiver, it only needs one bar. The bayonet system employed by the 870 et al. requires two bars to prevent binding. Gil
the versions we had in the 'teams were adjustable by twisting. they were phasing them out by the 80's 90's.
they were leftovers from the river rats in delta zone.
About a year ago-area gun show-- Gent with a table of pump guns had a M12 tagged "M12 Riot Gun" $2000.00. I asked him if I could look it over, and he said "OK" M12 with a Full Choke mark on the barrel- also, the front mounted magazine tube hanger was "re-positioned" forward about 3/4" from the std. position- and the 2 mounting bosses on the barrel had been apparently ground off- as they were missing. I measured the barrel, 20&1/4"-- no choke, but the muzzle cutting must have been done by hand with a hacksaw, as it was not even and flush- No front bead, the serial number indicated aprox. 1947 mfg.. and it had the post 1939 style 14 ring forearm, but the buttstock was a pre-1935 "perch-bellied" series-- with a Pachmyer White Line pad-- It was a Model 12--but no 2K Riot series, not by a long shot.
I prefer the non-take-down version of the M12 in the riot configuration- that being the M25. Hard to find one-- but I have one- designated as my SHTF defense weapon- I keep it with a round of OO buckshot chambered, and 4 rds. in the magazine tube. I also use a 5 rd. shell carrier- on the buttstock-- If I can't stop what's trying to kill me with 10 rds. at close range with that, I'm gonna be "VSF'd" for sure.
the Platypus looked like a flat funnel.
I'm not questioning the legitimacy of this being used to throw a specific pattern from the guns, but to my eye, this looks a lot like a flash hider. I can imagine a short barrelled shotgun in dark jungle/night engagements would probably need a good flash hider, or else it would be a beacon for enemy fire and fairly blinding to the operator. I am sure I could be wrong though...
I mean this with sincerity. Its good to see RwtF back with his reminisces and colorful words and phrases such as FUBAR, Top, "shit canned" etc.
-Joe
Good point, oh "Hunter who falls from the skies" (and hopes his chute pops open when the static line is tightened) . As my old hunting pal- 82nd. A/B once told me: "At Jump school at Bragg, they had a motto on the wall, in the hut where we packed our 'chutes-- 'only 2 things fall from the sky- fools and birdshit.
I have a pal who has just about every 'Nam era weapon that was in service, by both US troops, and "Charlie" and he has a class 3 FFL license too. I'll ask him if he has a "duck-billed" muzzled 12 gauge, and if so, we will test it at 0 dark 30 hrs.. Will report our findings, but as Winter has hammered its way through the barn door, we'll wait for Spring, and warmer weather.
No one that I can discern so far as question the 10 gauge M37 Ithaca statement. Did Ithaca tool up for Uncle Sam to make that pumpgun in 10 gauge- if so- 3&1/2 Mag- like their Special NID model of many years ago-- a M37 in a 10 gauge 3&1/2" Mag loading would kick like a constipated mule- RWTF
I accept with sincerity- and many thanks for your kind words. I do tend to get "windy" at times, with my postings and replies to posts here. I think we all owe Dave Weber a big ol' "Thanks, Buddy-- for his tolerant attitude on how he runs this outfit.
I do have fairly good recall- but at 77, somedays I find can better recall what I did 12 years ago, than what I had for lunch yesterday-- RWTF
Gene, in looking at the photo of Dale, I believe that's an M37. I can almost make out the portion of the barrel that has the bearing that locks into the magazine cap's detents. The slide handle is thinner than the existing slide handles on the 870 during the period that photo was taken. Earlier 870's had the thinner slide handle similar to the M37's. Gil
As did Model 12's- Gene. from 1912 through 1954- the field grade forearms change in oal, diameter, and also the number of rings- post WW11 M12's (and other fine Winchesters) were stocked with lesser quality wood (except the Pigeon grades) and Custom Shop guns- due to all the walnut being used in America for military rifle buttstocks.
That may be one reason why I prefer M12's and M70's mfg. prior to 1940.
Thanks Gil. I flew up to Dak Pek once and spent the night. The camp was built on 7 hills in the vale. The Yards had been tunneling for 4 years - you'd follow a tunnel and suddenly come upon a .50 cal overlooking the valley through a slit. Jack kept a .45 in his commo bunk to fire at cat sized rats. As far as I know we didn't have any shotguns at my A camp A-233, Ban Don, on my first tour 1966-67. But Dak Pek was a world unto itself.
Jack is an expert on Randall knives (he posts on Randall boards as "jacknola") and an advocate of big caliber military rifles, specifically the M-1 Garand.
Man after my own heart- Love the Garand, and own 2 Randall Made knives- from the Master Bladesmith in Orlando, FL. None better--
I've been hammered by VN era Special Forces friends. They all had shotguns at their camps. Here's a picture of my buddy Louis Ira Holmes, who was the Medic out at Ple Djerang in June 1968. He's holding the shotgun and it has a bayonet lug on it. Somewhere there's a site that has a list of all the types of shotguns used in that war. (Check the faces on those troops including the three guys by the Jeep - they've just come out of a hell of a firefight mission).
Louis is holding the M37 Trench Gun. Here's the business end:
A close friend of mine served in Vietnam with the 1stCav. Due to his stature he was utilized to clear underground tunnels. He refers to himself as having been a "tunnel rat". Below ground he carried a .45 pistol ......... above ground a pump shotgun. Next time I talk with him I'm going to ask what that was.
SRH
a collection guide to u.s. combat shotguns, bruce canfield, mowbray publishers, rhode island, ny, 1992, isbn: 0-917218-53-1
Stan, thank your friend for me for his service to our Country, at a time when the piss-headed Hippies were fomenting a revolution and burning draft cards on the "home-front".
My best buddy from HS was in the Air/Cav- believe it was the 7th- They had a Irish themed drinking song, "Garry Owen" that much I recall. He was a 2nd. Looie- KIA Feb. 22/1966- defending a air base held by 5th S/F. From what I heard, he took point, with a M-60, and set off trip wires which released grenades, both Donny and the "slack man" following him were killed instantly. I have a tracing of his name on "The Wall" 5E-63 are the co-ordinates to find his name, with over 58, 000 other brave Americans who paid the ultimate price in the Vietnam "disaster"
With Garryowen as their song that would undoubtedly have been the 7th. This was the marching song of the 7th Cavalry Dating back at least as early as Gen George Armstrong Custer. Some say that Custer was the one who first adopted it. That may or may not be true, but it has been their song for at least that long.
A few years ago I walked into a local pawnshop. And a 37 trench gun was on the rack. $169.00
It left with me and eventually ended up with a collector in NJ.
As a Seabee in Chu Lai 1968-69 base assigned not a battalion. I carried an M-14 on the dozer and grader while working. I talked the base armorer out of a shotgun for patrols outside the base. I was issued a Stevens pump 20" cyl. barrel. It's been 50 yrs now but I think it held 5 in the mag and one in the chamber, 2 3/4" olive green rounds with 9 pellets, it was just the ticket for what we were doing, just wish we had a couple more and I wouldn't have been stuck with point all the time. Luckily we only had to run patrols rarely.
Thanks for your fine service in the "Can-Do" section of our Naval Forces-- I had a distant relative (my late mother's step-brother) born in 1921-- Served in the Sea-Bees in the PTO 3 years- came back in 1945, survived the Kamakazi arracks- Passed away a year ago at age 89-- I saw some of his photos from his tours. I forget what his rate was, I think perhaps E-5 when he was discharged.
I agree, a 12 bore pump gun with a short cyl. bore barrel an 00 buckshot is a superb short range defensive tool. I am glad you came home "To The World" on your feet, and NOT in a body Bag. RWTF.. (Semper Fi)
Hey, Fox
I can remember a couple times I had to remind the SeaBees the difference between green and camouflage. Good times.
McCready’s Strat looks like it’s been through a couple battles...
____________________________
I’d like to see him I’d like to wish this war away
But I wake up every morning and turn on the news and there it is again
On the wayside I’d like to see those eyes but I don’t know whether my brother’s
Coming home in the box or the bag
https://youtu.be/UUyJoojCLnc
Yup-- old jokes we heard about the Sea-Bees while "In Country"
(1) If you go with the alpha notation, C-B-- that means "Confused Bastards"-- (2) WW11- PTO-- a Navy Corpsman reports to the C.O. that they have discovered cases or Beri-Beri at the Sea-Bees camp-- The C.O. tells the Corpsman- "Hell, sent it over to the Marines- those crazy jarheads will drink anything!"
All kidding aside- in my beloved USMC, we hold the lives of the Navy Corpsmen as a sacred thing-- We may joke about "Swabbies", just as Navy enlisted call us "Sea-going bellhops"- etc. But we protect the Corpsmen- they are "life savers"..
Seabee's loved the Marines they were sent to soak up bullets before they got to us.
We had a great working relationship with the Marines. The army would throw away everything they didn't want, I ran the garbage dump in Chu-Lai and would scavenge everything the Marines needed and couldn't get. M-16 Mags preloaded still wrapped in plastic, literally cases, HEAT rockets, C-rats, it was a long list. The Marines needed a pallet of plywood, we stole it from the army and the Marines swapped a stolen army jeep for it our Mechanic built a dune buggy out of it with bomb cart tires and a V-8 out of a firetruck.
We didn't mind being called "Needle Dicked Bug F--kers" by a Marine because we knew it was in jest. From a AF or army it was fighting words. A lot of the Seabees went to Camp Pendleton for weapons and tactics training. That was the only place in the world that is all uphill . You would leave the barracks in the morning with the Marine DI and you would march uphill. All morning you would be going up hill and when you returned to the barracks you were still going uphill and the DI never broke a sweat.
I did my ITR after 19 weeks of Boot at San Diego. You are 100% right about everything being up hill at Pendleton. Hump them hills, that's what 0311's learn to do.
Seabee's loved the Marines they were sent to soak up bullets before they got to us.
We had a great working relationship with the Marines. The army would throw away everything they didn't want, I ran the garbage dump in Chu-Lai and would scavenge everything the Marines needed and couldn't get. M-16 Mags preloaded still wrapped in plastic, literally cases, HEAT rockets, C-rats, it was a long list. The Marines needed a pallet of plywood, we stole it from the army and the Marines swapped a stolen army jeep for it our Mechanic built a dune buggy out of it with bomb cart tires and a V-8 out of a firetruck.
We didn't mind being called "Needle Dicked Bug F--kers" by a Marine because we knew it was in jest. From a AF or army it was fighting words. A lot of the Seabees went to Camp Pendleton for weapons and tactics training. That was the only place in the world that is all uphill . You would leave the barracks in the morning with the Marine DI and you would march uphill. All morning you would be going up hill and when you returned to the barracks you were still going uphill and the DI never broke a sweat.
Good stuff, oskar. God...the people you meet, the fucked up places you go, and crazy shit you do in the military. Wouldn’t trade those memories both happy and sad for anything.
_________________________
We were soldiers once...and young. Hal Moore
The duckbill was developed in the early 60's at the Naval base at China Lake, then moved to Crane Weapon Station. The prototype was listed on gunsinternational a couple of years ago with the blueprints and a picture of the China Lake quarterdeck inlay. IIRC it started at $5K. I grew up with the 37 and do a lot of searches for it, stumbled across that one.
It was developed for the then newly formed SEALs. Sr. Chief "Patches" Watson had the first and tested it in Nam. The SEALs standardized on the Ithaca 37 and he had China Lake create a pistol grip for his 37 to go with the duckbill.
In his book Walking Point he said the enemy never complained after being shot with 0000 buckshot and the duckbill.
The effectiveness of the pattern was brought up on another website a year or so ago. It really isn't optimal for birds or clays. But for spreading laterally has some merit but not many have the need for that.
We had a 37 in the locker on a Gator Freighter I was on. Everyone knew to keep their hands off it because it was "mine". When the Marines switched to the 9mm in the mid 80's they came on board and took the 37, M14's and .45's. Sad day.
The Mossberg 500 and Rem 870 replaced most of the shotguns from what I saw until I retired in 95. Few years later the Benelli M4 started to replace those from what my friends who were still active told me.
Thanks for that post, CI. Very informative, and interesting. Great pic.
Didn't know the military ever used 0000.
SRH
Back then the standard buckshot load for the Navy was #4. On a ship with steel compartments crack the hatch stick the muzzle in and bring a mop to clean up. By the time I came along 00 was the standard although there was still some 0000 around.
In Sr. Chiefs book Walking Point he stated that the spreader made quick shooting against moving targets in the dense jungle of Dung Island much more effective. As to the smaller #4 buck shot, Watson said it worked very well against the smaller Viet Cong. "I heard no complaints from any of them" he said.
I hunted deer for many years with 12 gauges, as we drove them with dogs. The standard accepted size was 00, but I found I got better patterns with 0, in most cases. When Federal came out with their copper plated buckshot loads, it was unreal how tight it stayed out of my gun. I could put more pellets on a paper plate at a given range, using their 2 3/4" load, than most 3" loads of regular unplated pellets, even tho' the 3" carried three pellets more.
Of course, I didn't have the same need as did a SEAL, or someone walking point in the jungle.
Just remembering .....
SRH
Interesting; the area around here used to be a goose mecca and a lot of seasoned hunters used #4 buck for pass shooting geese.
#4 Buck 20ga(reduced recoil Federal) is what my home defense Remington 870 extended mag is loaded with. At all times. No shell in the chamber though; maybe if something bad happens jacking in a live round will end the fight...Geo
When I was dog hunting for deer I used #1 Buck in a 12ga with satisfactory results.
George-- same way I keep my M25 riot gun in 12 gauge- 5 in the mag, chamber empty--and a Allen black nylon shell carrier with 5 extra rds. slipped in place on the ejection port side-on the butt (as I am right handed). No better weapon for an O-dark-30 SHTF scenario-IMO.
Noticed that the SEALs Chief in the photo had a M37 with the "duckbill", but I could not see the rest of the buttstock, just the pg covered by his right hand.
I concur with your thoughts of the sound of a round "going into the chamber" being a possible deterrent to "what comes next"--RWTF
I once had a deputy sheriff tell me that nothing "dispelled tensions" in a crowded juke-joint quite as much as stepping inside with a nickel-plated double barrel (S x S). Not sure where he got one, and there's not many of those kind of jukes left around here, but there used to be one every five miles or so. This was "no country for old men" for a long time, being over a half hour from the sheriff's department under the best of conditions.
True story............
Grandaddy bought this farm, and the house I'm living in, in 1919, as a young newly married man. It had been idle for several years since the country doctor who owned it and built this house died with tuberculosis, but there was a "squatter" who was living in this house for free, and supposedly care taking the place. When word got to him that Grandaddy had bought it he sent him word that if he set foot on the place he would "leave him lying in his tracks".
Grandaddy rode a horse 25 miles to the sheriff and told him the situation. Sheriff handed Grandaddy his personal sidearm and said "You can handle this, can't you?" Grandaddy rode on to Augusta and bought a Colt revolver for himself.
When Grandaddy rode down here to confront the squatter, he found him in the mule lot. Grandaddy said "I heard what you threatened. I bought this place, it's mine, and I am going to live here and farm it. We're going to settle this right now. If you want to shoot it out I have two pistols. If you want to cut it out I brought two knives, or if you want to fight it out with fists we will, but we're going to settle this now." Joe said he wanted to "fight it out". Grandaddy replied, "In the middle of the public road", turned about, and headed towards Stoney Bluff Road. They got halfway there and Joe said "No, I'll leave", and backed down. Can you imagine a high sheriff doing something like that today?
I live in the same house that was standing empty when Grandaddy bought this place 100 years ago, this year. The first year taxes are recorded as having been paid on it was 1875.
SRH
I love that story, Stan. Dang...
JR
Regarding shotguns in combat, all I can say is that on my last tour in Afghanistan, I was not initially issued a long gun (M4). I did have access to a Mossberg 500 riot gun so I availed myself to that. I carried it with a dump pouch full (about 40 rds) of Winchester 2 ¾” 00 Buck because that was all I could get. I carried that until I go a shorty SAW 249 (Para variation) .
One downside to a shotgun in combat is that for each movement to load the gun, you only get one round in, versus on an M4 each time you load, it’s a magazine worth of 28-30 rds.
The Afghans really liked to see me show up with it. The Afghans knew exactly what it was capable of. During down time, they wanted me to shoot doves for them with it. Took a little explaining to convince them a 9 pellet load of 00 Buck was not a good dove load.
Of course, when the enlisted guys saw an O-5 (LTC) with a shotgun, or a SAW they always gave me that WTF look; Officers don’t carry shotguns or SAW’s!! Anyway, being former enlisted, and extremely proficient in both, it was not an issue. Besides, I was in charge!!
and since this is the double gun site, I a including a photo of one of the afghans with his "bespoke double"!!! so I am not in violation of the posting rules and to keep this topic from going off the rails
picupload
top baby names 2001
Might as well post one of me in Afghanistan in 2005 with a stub of a sawed off shotgun. I went out for two months on short notice/contract....I hadn't qualified in several years on the M-4 so wasn't allow to carry one. But they gave me the shotgun. Everywhere you look from the Indus Valley to the Hindu Kush are 1,000 yard sight lines....there was a reason the Enfield .303 remained so popular with the tribals...and here I was carrying a shotgun good for 30 yards. Yes, the mustache is a little goofy - but you have to have hair on your face out there...and don't ever wear red...I can explain it if you wish.
You see that flat area behind me? It is historic and has to do with third week of September 2001.
I personally preferred this one, but it's a little more difficult to transport - 2007 NW Afghanistan: Very effective against ducks and geese though.
2011 gift of a Long Lee - I've cut the gentleman who gave it to me out of the picture for obvious reasons:
If I haven't violated the site rules with this thread, you haven't violated it with your pics,
Brian.
Thanks to you and Gene, for the pictures and for your service.
SRH
Whining decliners don't follow any rules...
