One of my hunting buddies (I’m down to 2 1/2 since one has developed MS, and shows up about half the time) has a friend who is a member of a family hunting club, started perhaps 75 years ago. My friend got to tour the property, about 1K acres, in Pine County MN.
During the tour, it came up that one of the founding members had died from an accidental self inflicted wound, attempting to lower his Marlin lever gun from his tree stand with a rope. The 35 Remington bullet entered under his jaw, and made for a quick, if grim, death. My understanding is this was not a recent occurrence, and happened long ago.
The club responded by banning hammer guns of any type.
I don’t know the details of how it happened, and don’t understand the logic behind the decision. My single exposed hammer gun is a Marlin 336C in 30-30, that has a safety button in addition to the half cock hammer, but, I have never actually fired the gun (inherited)and don’t have an opinion on it.

Good enough reminder to be safe out there.

Best,
Ted

Very sorry to hear of the accidental death. Lots of questions come to mind, but I won't mention them because, obviously, no one here can answer them. My biggest concerns now are with his family who remain.

Thanks Ted.

SRH

Actually, now that I ponder it a bit, there is another gun with an exposed hammer on the property. It is a Winchester (Cooey) 840 single shot 12 given to my brother for Christmas in the year 1976.
My brother despised this gun, and gave it to me, in a broken state. I repaired it, and cleaned it up a bit, and, have yet to fire it either.

Not much of a spokesman for hammers on guns, I guess.

Best,
Ted

Make more sense to ban the lowering of loaded guns by rope from a tree stand.
Naah, that is just silly for me to think that.

O.M

A friend told me about his uncle who blew half his guts out by pulling a loaded 12g shotgun by the barrel from the back seat of a car.
He survived.

What do we ban in this instance ?

O.M

Ted;
You say your understanding was this happened long ago. The Marlin 36 & possibly early 226 guns did not have the safety button. The only safety they had was the half cock. I truly don't want to sound too Calloused but anyone letting a "Loaded" gun down from a tree stand muzzle up likely deserved whatever they got.

I really don't know how this happened & seriously doubt the fact it had an external hammer had much to do with it. With the gun going down, anything snagging either the hammer or trigger should have been working in the opposite direction for firing. It, of course, could have been possible the gun snagged & he pulled it back upward a bit. If the hammer was then pulled back & released it should have caught in the half cock unless the trigger was snagged simultaneously. If just the trigger was caught he would have to have given it a pretty Stout Yank to have broken the half cock notch to allow the gun to fire.

We could ban stupidity. But, then there there would be no one left in Sacramento.

Kinda interesting story Ted, thanks for sharing it.

Every AD incident seems to have a human element, or, more accurately, a human failure. This is a guy I grew up with:

http://www.moraminn.com/news/hunter-lose...2cb3014f3d.html

A detail not mentioned in the story is the gun was on safe when it fired, confirmed by deputies who responded, and it is part of the group of rifles that was fitted with the problematic Remington 700 trigger. But, he made a critical error when he picked the gun up with his hand over the muzzle.

Be careful out there. My point, already noted, is that a particular design of firearm likely has little to do with an accident that results in maiming or death.

Best,
Ted

Miller,
I’m pretty sure the 336 got the additional safety button in the late 70s. Prior to that, they were all half cock safety only.

Best,
Ted

Ted;
Like you, I have only owned one 336 & it too was inherited, in this case from my Brother-in-Law. It is a late enough gun it has the cross bolt safety. It is in .35 Rem & I have shot it, though I don't use the safety. I just could not recall for certain when the safety was added. "IF" I were going to let it down from a tree stand "Loaded" via a rope, I would put the safety on though.

Miller,
Suggest you unload it, as well. But, it is your prerogative.

Best,
Ted

Well, I was taught to always unload before pulling a gun into stand, can't see banning the guns because one guy made a mistake.

I have a 1982 336, no cross block safety, googling shows they started in 1983.

A loaded gun is dangerous, we got it. It's always easier to blame the inanimate object. Same mindset that blames the gun first instead of the criminal.

I had a professional debate with a colleague one time about Accidental Discharges. He made the comment, "there are two types of AD's, those that had them and those that will."

I disagree with this. I believe that AD's are completely preventable through diligence. Complacency is what kills.

As we get older, we tend to think "I have done this a 1,000 times without a problem." Well, yes we have. And you have been fortunate. Now continue to be diligent and check it again before you put the gun in the case or go up into your stand.

Its never too early to practice the commandments of good gun safety.. everywhere, be it at home, in the field or at the club or and event. Thanks for that reminder, Ted. The title got my attention. The incident sighted broke those rules. Their reaction by banning hammer guns is frankly nonsensical.

I suppose it's a good thing that the article didn't lead with, 'the family wanted everyone to learn that people should give up hunting and sell their guns'. Thanks for the real world firearm handling safety reminder.

Years and years ago I was deer hunting with my nephew. He was one of those people that doesn't have any kind of internal compass.
I always had to get him to the spot he was going to hunt and later come back and get him.

We were hunting in an area that I really didn't expect to see anyone else.

Back then I only deer hunted on the ground...sit awhile still hunt awhile.

I dropped him off well before first light a short time later I hear several fast shots from his direction....boom boom.

I quickly went back to check on him.

Whats with all the shooting ?...I didn't shoot...somebody shot...it wasn't me....who the hell was it ?

By then I noticed he was reluctant to talk...I pressed him even more finally.

It was that guy in that tree right over there his gun shot when he was pulling it up...20 yards away was this dam idiOt climbed up this tree. I walked over pissed because he had literally sat on top of my nephew.

I walk over 'whats up buddy...whats with all the shooting....my gun went off when I was pulling it up the tree...yea we all know that then I went on to read him the riot act act about hunting on top of my nephew...

The guy had a Remington 742...rope tied to the trigger guard lucky for this idiOt the gun came up butt first...and fired into the ground.

During hunting season there is a moron entering the woods every few minutes somewhere.

Guns don't cause accidents...people cause accidents.

Ted, was anybody present when this happened?

What are you implying Brent nosleinaD ?

More details than I’ve got. Remember, this is a family hunt club that was formed in the 30s or 40s, and is structured so only family can belong. My friend got to see it, but, by design, he will never be a member, and thus, will never hunt the club.

I don’t know the date of the accident, or, who was there, just what the response from the club owners was, which, to be honest, is just a “we gotta do something” reaction, a notion that leads to nonsense like banning a design of gun.

I don’t even hunt deer. But, I am a guy who would have a bad case of the willies with either the muzzle being pointed at me on the way down, or, the gun being out of my grasp and in battery. Change either, and both of the two incidents I posted become just another day in the woods.
Best,
Ted

Ted;
I am in full agreement, definitely should be unloaded. Note that I put the "IF" in capital letters & quotes. I would hope that I would never be so foolish as to actually take that route.

Accidental Discharge vs. Negligent Discharge.

In my mind, an accidental discharge is a firearm discharging when the firearm mechanism fails in a mechanical manner; the sear interface breaks or fails due to wear or damage, the firearm is dropped, safety is on and it fires because of mechanical failure.


Negligent Discharge is when overt human error is involved. Some call it operator headspace issue, some call it a brain fart some call it stupidity but its human error none the less.

this includes but is not limited to:
lowering loaded firearms from tree stands,
crossing fences with loaded firearms
finger on trigger, safety off in anticipation of a shot when target is not present and hunter falls and through "sympathetic response", he /she pulls trigger discharging firearm
"I didn't know it was loaded" events.

There are many more but ND's are different from AD's.

In my time in the military, and on all of my deployments there were numerous ND's. Usually occurring at clearing barrels.
the standard procedure when entering certain places on FOB's was to clear your weapon(s). stand in front of clearing barrel, verify weapon on safe, muzzle in barrel, remove magazine, retract bolt or slide, eject chambered round, lock bolt or slide to rear, visually and physically inspect chamber, breech face and magazine well or feed tray, release bolt or slide, weapon off safe, pull trigger.

do you know how often soldiers, marines, airmen , screwed that up? and no rank was immune. Of course, you could get an Article 15 for an ND. Lots of General Officers wanted heads when this happened.
I suggested an easy fix;
1. weapon on safe, remove mag, pull bolt/slide to rear ejecting chambered round. inspect chamber. run bolt/slide forward. place muzzle under ship, take weapon off safe, pull trigger. if there was a loud bang, the offending moron who couldnt do a proper clearing of their weapon was removed form the gene pool and would never propagate another like minded creature and after one or two of those events, everyone would really take it seriously and do the technique properly!!!!
needless to say, my idea was not adopted.

Of course I am being facetious, but you get the point.

Seems to me that the hunter’s safety course is designed for the lowest common denominator. Perhaps making the course more intelllectually engaging and and the test more difficult with more questions about real life safety situations. Probably would help if it wasn’t one and done, but rather a retesting requirement every 5 years.

I don't understand the purpose of pulling the trigger on an empty chamber. It's either empty or its not. I know two veterans who pulled triggers on their supposed empty guns and had accidental discharges. One shot himself in the hand after dropping the magazine from his duty pistol. The other dropped a mag from his personal AR and fired a round through the walls of his house. That last step of pulling the trigger seems to be an issue. But of course they thought the guns were empty. I don't think an uncocked, unloaded gun is any safer than a cocked and unloaded gun. Assuming they are both really empty.

Hunting, as a pastime, is safer, by a wide margin, than many sports and other outdoor activities. It is safer than bicycle riding, badminton, tennis, running, and any team sports.

Attempting to make it safer is noble, but, ignores the fact that perhaps that effort really belongs in other pastimes? When I’m in the woods hunting, I am pretty much my own guardian, much different than when I am riding down WI. highway 35, on the shoulder on my bicycle, and at the mercy of drivers and their connected devices.

I suggest we could start with the use of a connected device in a motor vehicle while said vehicle is in operation being a felony, with an automatic 25 year sentence, and a minimum $150,0000 fine. The same crime, where a bystander is killed or injured, mandatory life sentence.

I believe this would make the world a far safer place than any remedial hunter safety courses.

Best,
Ted

As an afterthought;
It is a possibility this gentleman in the treestand totally lowered the hammer, rather than placing it on half cock. NO hammer gun should have the hammer lowered on the cap or primer. It only takes a surprisingly light blow to ignite a primer in this situation, much less than enough to break the sear or notch.

This could very easily have occurred in lowering the gun should the hammer have struck a limb or such. Again this not a fault of the gun having a hammer but what we called in the machine shop I worked in OT or OP, ie Operator Trouble or Operator Problem.

I once read an article by a gentleman who was otherwise extremely knowledgeable on muzzleloaders. He recommended when carrying a caplock rifle hunting to lower the hammer all the way down on the cap. His reason was that a blow to the hammer should the gun be dropped or something could break the half-cock mechanism & fire the gun, "WRONG", the blow required to break the half-cock is much more than required to fire the cap with the hammer resting on it.

How hard is it to figure out that you need to lower and raise up unloaded guns? It is not like time counts when you are getting into or out of a tree stand. Go slow. Unload the gun. Do not be stupid. I have seen countless examples of shooters handling guns which makes me cringe. Clay target shooters are some of the worst. They get so use to handing loaded guns that they wave them like a broom stick and forget that they can kill or injure.

I quit a very good duck and goose hunting club 40 years because I got tire of hunting with one slob who refused to adhere to basic gun safety. I could stand him being lazy but will not put up with a slob who handles guns like a child or drunk.

Of course it's for the lowest common denominator. And being more intellectually engaging wouldn't be a bad start.

Just unload the gun. What is wrong with people?

But you can't fix willful stupidity and the government shouldn't be in the business of legislating common sense. In fact, the widespread growth of the nanny state just works to exacerbate these kinds of problems by encouraging the abdication of personal responsibility. Stupidity should have consequences.

cback, no use getting a little testy about this. Some folks just feel safe with a little card in their pocket, as long as it hasn't expired.

Ted,

I think the distinction can be found where an accident with a gun consistently has more tragic results then an accident with a football. And you are right about driving, an accident with a motor vehicle has the best potential to be as tragic as one with a gun. Driving, as an activity has much much more participation then with shooting or hunting, hence the rightfully high levels of regulation. But I think your example might be overkill.

I'm not so sure that requiring hunters to show a higher level of proficiency in recognizing safety risks would qualify as "nanny state".

On the other hand, requiring hunters to wear kevlar vests...

It is not just the card, it is the eduction and proficiency one has to show to earn it. But hey, just spitballing an idea to address a problem, or we could let Darwin's theory play out and let the stupid weed themselves out of the gene pool. I'm ok with that too, but when were are dealing with guns, there is no guarantee that the incidents of stupidity only effect the stupid.

In aviation there is a lot of emphasis put on the decision making process, start to finish, and how one bad decision can spark a second, etc.

In the context of decision making, nothing about this hammer ban has anything to do with exposed hammers. Even the solution to the very avoidable problem was flawed, and no one is any safer for it.

You might refeel this. It's more likely that when dealing with people, the stupid ones affect everyone. Why not outlaw stupidity, instead of imposing more laws on the non stupid?

A better approach would be to educate the stupid as opposed to outlawing it.

You know this saying is so true to us gun using folks no matter what country you live in. "Familiarity breeds contempt" it also could fit many other situations other than shooting.
Some of you will have probably seen this advice many times before and I make no apologies for posting it again because Mark Hanbury Beaufoy got it so very right, especially the third verse in this situation.
A FATHER’S ADVICE

If a sportsman true you be.
Listen carefully to me:

Never, never let your gun.
Pointed be at anyone:
That it may unloaded be.
Matters not the least to me.

When a hedge or fence you cross,
Though of time it cause a loss,
From your gun the cartridge take.
For the greater safety’s sake.

If twixt you and neighbouring gun.
Bird may fly, or beast may run,
Let this maxim e’er be thine
Follow not across the line

Stops and beaters oft unseen
Lurk behind some leafy screen:
Calm and steady always be,
Never shoot where you can’t see.

Keep your place and silent be:
Game can hear and game can see:
Don’t be greedy, better spared
Is a pheasant than one shared.

You may kill or you may miss
But at all times think of this:
All the Pheasants ever bread
Won’t repay for one man dead.

This was written by Mr Mark Hanbury Beaufoy. Coombe House, Shaftsbury, Dorset, England. On presenting his eldest son Henry Mark Beaufoy with his first gun at the turn of the previous Centaury.

This might also be part of the older school-with a Colt revolver- single action like the Army 1873-- carrying the weapon with one chamber empty, and the hammer down on that empty chamber- If you were "un-horsed" and you landed so that the ground made contact with the hammer spur-- OK-- you got lucky--

Years ago, a distant relative who rode with Patton in the Mexican campaign against Pancho Villa-and who carried a 1873 Colt sidearm, explained this to me--words of wisdom--

A boyhood chum "got lucky" at age 13-- we had been out duck hunting, he had a 12 bore Iver Johnson Champion-- we pulled up the canoe in the rainstorm, and ran for the cabin-- he ran back to get his shotgun, and pulled it out from the seat by the barrel- the hammer got caught, tripped- and a "dud" common with wet paper shells of the 1950's--went off with enough force to sprinkle the Old Town canoe with birdshot- missing him by a whisker--

"If a fence or stile you must cross-though of time it may cause a loss- from you gun the cartridge(s) take, for the greater safety's sake--You may kill, or you may miss, but at all times think of this-- All the pheasants ever bred, will never repay for one man dead"---RWTF

Or Austin, Denver, Portland or any number of other urban blue dots in a sea of red.

nca225 would be up chit crick without a paddle....

Just my observations.

Maybe, but your living proof its better to be stupid and lucky than smart any day of the week.

I had a young friend that's dad had lost his arm right below the elbow when he was a young...story was his dad had been rabbit hunting and reached in the back seat to retrieve his single barrel shotgun by the muzzle end....when he drug it out of the back seat the hammer caught on something and the gun went off and shot his lower arm.

A costly lesson in gun safety.

I agree, pulling the trigger on an empty chamber is redundant and calls into question the entire clearing process, but in Army logic, it is the final check. If the person clearing the weapon has a brain fart and doesn't do the sequence correctly, the pull of the trigger on a supposed empty weapon is the final means to guarantee that the weapon doesn't leave the clearing station loaded. You would think that grown ass men can accomplish a simple task such as this but alas, there are mere mortals who are incapable. Education and rank have no bearing.


People become complacent with guns the longer they are around them. the person who lowers a loaded firearm from a tree stand is a willing participant in the theory and practice of Darwinism.

The first rule of firearms safety is "all guns are loaded" . Not "treat all guns as if they are loaded". that immediately allows the brain to think it may be unloaded and you don't have to be as careful. By considering all guns loaded, you treat them as loaded firearms until such time that you can clear them and make them safe. even then you still keep your finger out of the trigger guard and keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.

Thanks for the explanation about pulling the trigger. I guess it makes sense in a military setting but perhaps should be abandoned in civilian life. I was taught to not pull the trigger unless I was shooting at something.

I concur, Colonel-- 100%. I saw a few close calls when I was in the USMC- MOS 2112-- armorer. Never assume a weapon is unloaded until you have checked it yourself-- Both my father and grandfather taught me this lesson at an early age.

You can also read in Robert Ruark's "The Old Man and The Boy"-- I don't remember the exact story line offhand- but when the boy told his Grandfather that he had unloaded his 20 bore double gun, but handed it to him closed, his mentor stepped outside the door, and pointed it towards the sky- and pulled the trigger- BLAM-- "What was that- mice?"' asked the Old Man--

Gun safety and gun handling manners are ingrained in some people, in others, not so much. I have seen my share of "close calls" on gun club shooting ranges, and I am sure you have as well.

And thank you for your service to our great Country. RWTF

Much more likely the case I think. Much more.



I have known quite a few folks that believed this (note past tense). It was, I think, a particularly popular myth on the internet in the 1990s. I cured one person of this by just tapping his hammer with a stick. That was the end of that idea for him.

The most important thing I learned at my hunter safety class back in 1985 was how many nuts were gonna be running around the woods with guns when I was in them.

Guys came in full camo with large knives on their belts. Of course, this was the closest class to The Bronx

yOu are a nut cAse.

I can only imagine....just after the Gulf war the railroad hired a lot of X military guys.

What I noticed about them was that most of them lacked the ability to think on their own....they could do what you told them but if they ran into an obstacle it was a no go.

I told more than one...."I'm sure glad you're out of the military and not protecting our country anymore as dumb as you are".

I did get kicked in the shin once for it....then he ran.

I guess I've been pretty lucky in life because if my railroad lantern thrown tomahawk style had struck home I'd be sitting in prison...no doubt he felt the wind on his ear.

I really think I meant to miss him.

More hero stories, eh, Frank? You are the biggest windbag I've ever seen. But keep the spotlight on yourself. Sometimes it is entertaining to watch a fool recreate himself over and over.

My post hit a little too close to home Freddy...

X military turned nutty professor dumber than box of rOcks

Check my reply it was not to you Freddy the Free Loading Brent nosleinad.

Frank, you are such a joke. There is no chance you will grow up someday, but you are, at least, entertaining to laugh at.

Hopefully, that is behind us.

The closest I came to an incident of AD was when I was 17 and grouse hunting, alone, with my Mom’s Irish Setter, a show dog that would hunt. I was not paying attention to the hunt, and fooling with the trigger and right handed safety when a Grouse rocketed out of a tree. I had my left index finger in the guard, and while pulling up on the bird, attempted to reach the safety, which I did, but, my finger was most of the way through the guard, and I fired the gun too soon, well behind the bird. It taught me not to do that again, no part of your finger is as sensitive as the tip. Nobody else was along, and I don’t think the shot was even close enough to scare the bird.

Quizzical look from the pooch, however. Funny how they are about a missed bird.

I’ve been lucky, and, for the very most part, careful.

Best,
Ted

My father went to Texas A&M. He was in The Corps and wore his Aggie ring till the day he died. The ring has an Eagle and Shield emblem on it.

I have those tattooed all over the back of my head. It was fine to carry a loaded gun, while hunting, on safe. All other times the gun was unloaded and treated as if it were loaded. Cover ANYTHING with that muzzle or fail to check a gun handed to you or picked up and, BAM! another tattoo. I

I've had two ADs. Both of them occurred upon taking a rifle off safe..... Never point a gun or allow it to point at anything you do not intend to shoot.

Fences? Unloaded, not broken open, or action open. Unloaded and laid on the ground on the opposite side of the fence. Then cross the fence.

We didn't hunt in trees but we did use tower stands. We carried the rifle slung while climbing up or down. There was no round in the chamber and the firing pin was down.

I have never raised or lowered a gun on a rope. Probably won't ever either.

As far as banning hammer guns or any other item or activity....

If it is private property, a private club, .... then it is those individuals who own, are responsible and liable for the property that get to make the rules. They can make any rule they like as long as it does not violate State or Federal laws.

If they say no hammer guns, ... then no hammer guns it is, regardless of what their reasons are or what anyone else thinks.

Alan

I think the point Ted was making is that it is just stupid to ban a certain type of gun because some fool misused one in the past. You don't have to pull a gun into a tree stand on a rope to have an accidental discharge. All you need to do is slip or trip while carrying a cocked and loaded shotgun without intercepting sears.

But for all the talk about the wisdom or stupidity of banning this or that type of gun... how many gun owners still vote for Liberal Left Democrat politicians who wish to ban them all???

Now THAT is dumb!

Just 'cos you can don't mean you should.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbNgt8jh9io

Howzzat, lonesome?

SRH

Too many notes. A+ for matching the song to the post though.

I’ll raise you one Ry Cooder...

https://youtu.be/Ga6RAwIMxD4


____________________________
Born With the Blues
https://youtu.be/BNj2BXW852g

Well, I didn't say I liked it or that it should be that way. But, it's a slippery slope when you start banning things and even slippery when any group can start dictating what a person(s) decide to do with their private property. Personally, I have no issue with exposed hammer guns, hammerless guns or any kind of guns that can be used to legally hunt with.

I also own private property and I have rules for hunting there. There are some that may think that those rules are unreasonable. I had a friend once who had free run of the place. He asked if he could bring a friend. I told him that the current hunting pressure was maxed out and further, I did not know his friend and had a responsibility to my family not to place them in a position of liability. He took his friend anyway. Then they were two friends together with no place to hunt. Oh well. Now, I wouldn't want someone who viewed that as unreasonable to tell me I had to allow it because they thought it was stupid. We didn't hunt turkeys. We had some turkeys, by accident. It was not a sustainable flock. There was no running water, no high grass for nesting and no real food source. Don't shoot the Turkeys. Unreasonable? Why, it's Turkey season isn't it? So, I got rid of the cattle... unreasonable? Of course it was to the cattleman. The grass grew and I started see little Turkey teepees, killed wild hogs and varmintry on sight, and started a regimen of purely artificial feeding until the brush and acorns could take up the slack. Now we have Turkeys. They're a nuisance, feathers everywhere, all kinds of racket every morning and evening. Unreasonable? Unfair? Not to me, not to the Turkeys.

So, some folks up in MN experienced a personal tragedy. In all the years i've hunted, we have never had any dead people leave the hunting camp (or stay there). (Knocking furiously on my wooden desk!). So, I can only imagine that circumstance. And they decide, for whatever reasons, purely their own, that they don't want exposed hammer guns on the place. Unreasonable? Yeah! It Is! To most everyone but them.

So, there's the whole rest of MN and whole rest of the United States to hunt on besides their 1000 acres..... I'm not real sure I see what the problem is?

According to some They should not decide what goes on their personal property. The prevailing wisdom of the group should decide. My God boys, that sounds more Liberal Left than banning a certain kind of gun from your own property.

I gotta listen to this cute little song now.

Alan

My point wasn’t that they shouldn’t do as they wished with the club rules and their property. My point was that I didn’t believe the rule they created in response to that particular tragedy would trump what was, by most any standard, truly unsafe gun handling.

Best,
Ted

I still don't think anyone is trying to dictate anything, except for the guy that thinks he can fix everything with another law or regulation. It seems this discussion was started to question the logic that's responsible for the decisions. And maybe, the logic that's coming out of the house right now in the name of safety.

Okay, then we agree. Not allowing exposed hammer guns certainly won't cure stupid gun handling. I have always found exposed hammer to be one of the safer designs. A glance will tell you if it is ready. It is the safety. I have two Marlin rifles (an 1895 45/70 Guide Gun and a 1894 45 Colt) that "had" the push button safety, which I regard as un-safe. I remove the button safety on both of them and replaced it with that $18 plug. My Henrys don't have safeties or half cock, but the hammer will not fall to the firing pin without a full trigger pull. When hunting, they must be cocked prior to firing. The only two ADs I've had were with 98 Mauser sporters and Buehler safeties. Never even close with a hammer gun.

As we all know, ultimately any safety on a firearm is redundant (or should be). The main safety is between the ears of the person holding the gun.

I sure did like the poem earlier and I'm stealing it, blowing it up and it's going on the hunting camp wall, and copies to all my sons and nephews.

Some of the greatest gun safety lessons I've taught were upon skinning deer and hogs. I'd call the boys over as I gutted the animal. I told them, if there is a gun "accident", this is what the doctor is going to see when he's trying to save your life. But as you can see, it is too late for this deer. About that time the congealed blood, shredded lungs and heart spill out in a gush of blood and bone fragments.

Even a ten year old boy can understand that. To this day I still say every time they go out (and they are all grown men now), "Be careful, be sure to unload before you climb in or out of the stand".

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I've been carrying my soapbox around with me lately.

Alan

Well said, Alan.. When I was about 11- my Grandfather gave me a 20 gauge hammerless single-shot-- It was a Stevens-Savage M220 if memory serves-- had a top tang safety, like on his L.C. Smith 12 gauge, and the top lever would open towards either the right or left side of the top tang--

After I had shot the 20 gauge on clay targets, I graduated to barn pigeons. When I had centered a "Airborne Poopster" and the feathers were sifting down to the barnyard, he had me hand him my gun, broken open and with an empty chamber-and walk over and pick up the dead pigeon- blood all over the chest area, and he took it, mashed the pulp and blood and feathers into my hands and told me to "always remember what can happen whenever you pull the trigger--

That mess could be a bird dog's head, or my leg, or anything that you can't call back and have to do over differently"

He didn't allow me to wash off the blood and gore until we were ready to leave his friend's farm-- RWTF

I have many gun safety "pet peeves", too many to list. After all they took a lifetime to learn...

There are people who have approached me wanting to learn to shoot or hunt. After all the preliminary talk about everything except "The Gun", we finally get to that point.

I have enough representative examples to give anyone a good idea of what they are dealing with. I will take out a firearm, check it and explain the operation, never once shouldering it or aiming at anything. The first thing I do is show them and demonstrate how to make sure it is unloaded. I then ask if they would like to hold it. Of course they would, that's why they are here, but I still ask. I tell them to hold onto it and handle it with authority (which means don't drop my dang gun).

Invariably, they will take hold of it like it's a snake coiled to strike. I ask them to check the weapon (I call it a weapon at that point). The muzzle starts wiggling a little as they try to remember which button opens it up. I say "watch the muzzle" (reminding them of prior learning, or teaching anyway)... and that's the pet peeve. The hardest thing to over come is the brainwashing that has occurred in that they think guns are bad and that it can just go off at any second wiping out entire schoolyards. When the greater majority of people were taught gun safety early on in their lives they developed a healthy respect for firearms. A healthy respect as opposed to an irrational fear.

Then there's the guy who waits 60 years and decides he wants to get a pistol for self defense...... Blah, blah, blah.. finally get around to looking at the pistols. Have you ever held of shot a pistol before? Yes, once at my uncle's cousin's house on 4th of July... Okay, that doesn't count.... This is a blah, blah, and this is how you check to see if it's unloaded. They will take the handgun and hold it sideways in their hands looking at the side of it.... No, I said, check it. You just checked it. Oh, you trust me? What's the password to your bank account? Right, that's what I thought... Check it. How? Right watch one more time.. and then don't point it at the house, the TV, your leg, your fingers, down the street, or any of the other places you've been pointing it since I handed it to you. Old people are the worst, because they already know everything. I have actually suggested to some people that they NOT get a gun, simply because they are totally unsafe and likely never will be otherwise.

Soapbox away for the day.

Alan

Sounds like a guy in Nova Scotia we all know and love.

Hi, King! Figured you’d get a kick oot of that quote.

Throw Millennials under the bus too.


__________________________
You’re like Paul of the Bible, spreading Good News...
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Oh yeah, know what your saying Alan.
Had a family ask me to show mum through my various shotguns so that she could find one nice & light enough with little recoil & experience shooting it. Tall order right there.
She wants to shoot snakes around the farm house to protect the 4 small children.

Nice girl but a bit of an air head & there was no way I could figure how she could be taught gun handling that was going to make the snake situation any safer for the little kids.
A fear cranked up situation with the snake would throw all the safety learning out the window & bringing the gun in just doubles up the danger in the heat of the moment.

Obviously I backed away from this one.

What she needs to learn to use is a hoe.

SRH

You can't teach a Millennial anything, at least not the Snowflake variety. I know some really sharp, conscientious young people who fall into the Millennial time frame. There are lots of them actually, it's just that the 5% that are really stupid get all the press.

Fathers can teach sons (or daughters) to shoot because fathers will chew their a$$es out when they do stuff wrong. That's as far as primary family level training should go. If there is and older person, who has not had any real experience with handguns, who wants to, all of a sudden start packing heat,... then someone else should teach them. They will regard that person as an expert more readily than someone they already consider to be their numbskull nephew.

My great grandmother owned several guns of several flavors, and knew how to use them. Her "go to" was a Mossberg 410 bolt action and she dispatched snakes and various sundry henhouse varmintry with equal expertise.

A woman can learn to use a shotgun properly, just like a man, IF they are brought up doing it.

The hair on the back of my neck was tingling when the discussion turned to a young woman and four small kids a shotgun and snakes. Likely the safest thing would be to be a snake around there.

Anyway, with the Great Depression/WWII ridden bunch I was raised by, wasting a cartridge on a snake was not done. That's what shovels and hoes were for.

Alan

That reminds me of a joke...

You are at the Black Miss America Pageant. There are 50 Contestants on the stage in the swim-suit competition. How do you know which one is the prostitute?

Answer: Easy... She is the one with the banner across her chest that reads "Idaho".

Now for a Public Service announcement that is somewhat on topic concerning real gun bans- Nancy Pelosi and the Democrat Gun Banners in Congress have passed HR 8 which would impose Universal Background Checks on law abiding citizens. The same anti-gun Liberal Left Democrats opposed Republican legislation that would have mandated contacting I.C.E. if Illegal Immigrants attempted to buy a gun, which is a felony.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20190301...-s42-and-hr1112

Take a few minutes to contact your U.S. Senators to tell them to Oppose H.R. 8, H.R. 1112, and S. 42! Send the message that we are not willing to give up our 2nd Amendment Rights while they permit Illegal Aliens to get away with committing felonies.

If by some miracle that piece of garbage makes it to and through committee and passes the Senate, I'm quite sure it will be vetoed in mid air above the President's desk.

But, I concur, All of our Senators need to hear from All of us that this nonsense has got to stop.

Alan

Oh, and I'm stealing the last part of your post and re-posting it on two other forums I frequent. I left out the part bout Idaho....

Alan

Good for you Alan. You obviously understand that the biggest threat we gun owners face is not rust, or bore obstructions, or even some landowner banning a certain type of firearm for hunting. It is anti-gun Liberal Left Democrats.

But be careful. There are a lot of FUDD's right here, and on other Firearms Forums, who will move Heaven and Earth attempting to stifle any discussion of Gun Rights and protection of our 2nd Amendment. And you are quite correct about President Trump vetoing the Democrats latest attempt at infringing upon the Constitutional Rights of law abiding citizens. But we still all should take the time to let our Senators know that their future employment as Senators depends upon their support for us. And we need to re-elect Trump in 2020.

Any time somebody tells me that the gun controllers don't want my hunting guns, I tell them, "That's good, because you can't have those either!"

I established my Life membership in the NRA and TSRA long enough ago for them to start paying for themselves. My Senators are sick of hearing form me and that DemocRat that collects a paycheck for voting with Team Nancy that claims to represent the district I live in, just $hitcans everything I send him. But it still keeps rolling in. They used to acknowledge my letters, but now I guess they just figure I know. I really rather they NOT send me anything back, because that costs money and from what I just gave the IRS, I really want them to NOT spend money.

I try not to get in Gun Control conversations. I know, they know, we all know, that Gun Control is NOT about reducing crime, saving the children, or combating Global Warming. Its simply about Control, that's all. Total Control. Tyrants can't rule armed free men. Sux doesn't it?

Alan

X-box and EDM are a lot of fun, I’m much too young and stupid to operate a gun.
Frank Zappa


__________________________
Tobacco is my favorite vegetable. Frank Zappa
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X'posed hammer guns are not as safe as a hammerless gun with a safety.

Especially for a young kid.

Just an observation...

And a good and accurate one, Ho-Jo amigo mio!! Younger hands usually don't have the strength and dexterity to cock, and then uncock a hammer gun- when boys get into their teens, perhaps a different situation.

The two first shotguns I started with were both 20 gauge hammerless- 28" Mod. chokes- (1) Stevens-Savage 220 hammer-less single-shot, with top tang safety-and later, at age 13- Dad's M12 which he received on his B'day in 1931-and passed on to me.

When Dad showed me the safety on the M12-- I remarked: "Dad, this is different than on the Stevens Grandpa gave me-- " He replied: "Son, the ONLY safety you can trust on any gun is the one that's up between your ears--"-- words of infinite wisdom---

Nevermore! Whenceforth and Hitherto!
No knife or gun for you!
For there is nothing, nothing there’s
But space and air between your ears!

(last verse for the guy who wrote the safety poem-for his idiot son)

Happy paczki day, everyone.


_______________________
#7 Ted Lindsay
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/obituaries/ted-lindsay-dead.html

By the time I was old enough to shoot a gun with a hammer, I had a lot of tattoos. From when I can remember I was allowed to keep my guns in my room. One half of my closet had my clothes and other frills and the other half had the important stuff. Gun stuff, hunting stuff, fly tying vice. My dad had the reloading press set up in the garage but my scale, was in my closet on my "bench" (a closet shelf).

And of course my guns. MY shotgun up until I was 14 was an Eastern Arms dog leg 410, with the exposed hammer. If springs wear out with use, then Eastern Arms must have made theirs out of kryptonite. If I cocked and decocked that thing once I did it 1,000,000 times. The same with my grandfathers Colt SAA. (with no ammo of course). Familiarity and practice is how I learned to keep from an ND with a hammer gun.

Are all kids given that opportunity and responsibility not to shoot holes in the walls or do stupid stuff? Well, NO, they're not. First off, if anyone got wind that a guy was letting his 10 yr old boy keep a bunch of guns, ammo, bullets, powder and primers in his closet where he spent most of his free time trying to wear out the actions on the guns, the SWAT team and CPS would descend on him like white on rice. Secondly, a tradition of tattooing the back of a boys head with an Aggie ring isn't deemed proper child rearing these days.

As a result, young men are not capable of being trusted with responsibility.

My boys started shooting when they could pull the trigger. I rode them pretty hard about safety too. As a father, you don't ever get to stop teaching safety, ever. That way, they won't ever stop teaching it either.

Now, even back when, I was probably the exception to the rule. There were plenty of kids who regularly got in trouble. I learned early on not to get caught. That's the best way to stay out of trouble. Don't get caught.



Alan