Just saw on a video from Fieldsports Britain that pigeon and crow shooting has been banned. Along with some other species.
Pigeon shooting is a big thing in the UK and it helps the farmers out as well.

They also shoot jays and various other bird species they consider to be pests. That one caused me a problem on a driven shoot a few years back. Birds popping out of the cover and coming my way, too small to be either pheasants or partridge and wrong profile to be woodcock. But the Scot next to me keeps yelling "Shoot, shoot" . . . so I finally do whack one of the little critters. Walked over to collect it, showed it to the man who was running the shoot. Asked whether it was blackbirds we were supposed to shoot. Nope. My Scottish shooting companion had been referring to jays. Turns out it's not legal to shoot blackbirds . . . and I was still 23 short to make a pie.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/220...g-wood-pigeons/

What?? No more George Digweed and Tony Crow shooting pest birds in Old Blimey-- unbelieveable long range kills made by these two top clays shooters--

In MI- the native pheasants are way down, so in off-seasons, I shoot crows and feral pigeons-- the dairy farms nearby have large nubers of pigeons, blackbirds, and crows- all legal. We often get seagulls dropping in range on the fields where we set out our decoys- wish they were legal, along with doves- But what does England hope to gain by banning the killing of nuisance birds? You tell me.. RWTF

The thread above is not very accurate:
In the UK, a number of species have been controlled by shooting for various reason such as protecting crops, farm livestock, wildlife, and some health and safety reasons. These species included pigeons, crows and others. This was permitted under what was known as 'General Licenses'.
The legality of these 'General Licenses' was challenged by a pressure group called 'Wild Justice' which is partly fronted by a well known BBC wildlife programme presenter.
It became clear to Natural England (the Government body who administer and issue the licenses) that the current licences were badly drafted and would not stand up to legal challenge in court, so the licences were revoked on 26th April.
New licences are being prepared to replace these with altered wording (and probably more onerous on the shooter and farmer) to fully comply with the law. The first has already been issued and others are expected to follow in days. It remains to be seen how this will alter the ability to use shooting to control these problem species.
It is important to realise that these licences were in place to control pests - not for either sporting or hunting purposes.
I hope that the above is reasonably clear, but this has been a very sudden and rapidly changing situation, and there may be various aspects that are not yet apparent.

To summarise - there is no 'ban' as such; existing licenses were withdrawn, but replacements are being issued. The likely effect is a (few days) cessation of the ability to control pest species, but more onerous conditions applicable to controlling pest species in the future.

Not to say we have a better way of doing things on this side of the pond . . . but it would seem that our system makes more sense. One only needs a hunting license to shoot species that are classified as game, and on which there is an established season, bag limit, shooting hours, etc. Otherwise, if a species is not either protected or classified as game, it can be shot by anyone whether they have a hunting license or not. I'm sure farmers who don't hunt appreciate being able to shoot pigeons without purchasing a hunting license.

John has explained it well but we don't need a license that we have to pay for to shoot game; if we have permission to be on the land and shoot game by the landowner that's all we need and with no bag limit, all it needs is that it is in season. Some species have specific seasons and some have no season at all such as muntjac deer. The pest species were covered by a General Licence which was free to those involved again with permission to shoot on the land. Hopefully it will all be sorted. Things can be followed by checking in to The British Association for Shooting & Conservation (BASC) for short and the website of the Countryside Alliance. Natural England administer this for England so I'm not sure whether Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland are affected. Also Natural England are just an advisory body for the Government so it is not a ban instituted by the Government in this case; they are too busy (or at least I hope so) in disengaging us from the E.U. who would like to impose all sorts of other restrictions. Lagopus…..

Thanks to our good friends across the pond for setting the record straight.

Good luck chaps!

Greg

Thank you Lagopus for some clarifications and filling in a few gaps. Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are not affected at present. The licenses there are administered by their own local bodies, not Natural England. In Scotland, the law may also be slightly different (Scots law differs from English law in some details).
Perhaps most critically - only England has been challenged in court ....... whether Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are now challenged, or indeed if there is scope to challenge there remains to be seen.

What I saw on YOU TUBE on the Fieldsports Briton channel was the story. I admit I did not watch the entire video but that what I said was how the video started out.

Aha. Free license for pests. That makes sense . . . as long as there's not too much red tape involved in getting one.

It is my understanding that, in Texas, a person afield with any device designed to take any animal, game, non-game, pest, feral, or invasive specie, must have, in their possession a valid Texas Hunting license, with proper endorsements (depending on the game animal), and a valid form of identification establishing them as a Texas resident. In order to obtain a Texas Hunting license a person (born after 1973?) must have passed a State prescribed Hunter Safety Course (for which there is a fee).

I believe there are only 2 or 3 species of birds that are classified as non-game which are not prohibited to shoot. English Sparrows, Starlings and Barn Pigeons. There are invasive species such as collared doves, which have no season, can be shot all year round with no limit, but still require a hunting license. All others are game birds or prohibited species.

Even the hunting of feral hogs, possibly the most destructive animal in North America, requires a hunting license.

In addition to the above a person must have permission to hunt on the private property of another.

Now, in complete contrast to all of this, (and this rule may or may not still be in effect), If you live on your own property, you may hunt there without a license, and without the necessity of tags for deer, turkey or anything else, as long as no part of the animal is wasted or leaves the property. I'm not sure if it even has to align with regular hunting seasons. This is basically subsistence hunting and there are not many of those kinds of folks any more.

I'm going at a lot of this from memory, and my memory ain't what it used to be.

Alan

No license required for unprotected birds and mammals in Minnesota. That includes crows.

Best,
Ted

Larry, there is normally no form filling at all. Some forms are being issued as I understand it as an interim measure until it is all sorted out and reworded then it should be business as usual and back to no forms again. Certain normally protected species that become a pest can be shot after obtaining a license from Natural England. As a River Keeper I am granted an annual license to shoot goosanders and cormorants to protect wild trout stocks. I have to prove they are present and being destructive to wild trout. I then got a site visit to confirm and had to show what measures I had undertaken to prevent damage. All boxes ticked and license issued. Each year I have to fill in a return as to numbers shot. I had just submitted that the other day. Game don't require any license at all. An annual £6 license was required once but has been scrapped a few years ago. This covered game birds and deer and such; ducks and geese never required one. Game, ducks and geese are not affected by this temporary problem; most are out of season anyway except various deer species.

Scotland is administered by Scottish Natural Heritage. Someone with a problem there recently applied for a license to cull a few ravens. Checks were made and a license issued. The Licensee then received death threats from the animal rights lot as did S.N.H. so they caved in and revoked the license. The terrorists won in this case. Oddly, they will freely grant licenses to shoot deer at night to reduce numbers without any opposition. Many thousands were shot like this last year by forestry commission staff with carcasses left to rot in many cases.

Wales have caved in about allowing game shooting on Council owned land recently despite evidence to show that that other species benefitted by game preservation measures. I now understand that they are spending £600,000 of public money to employ Gamekeepers to protect certain waders on the land which had been carried out free of charge before by those who hunted the game they are no longer allowed to hunt.

We have a bit of a loony left animal rights lot here that seem to be able to freely make threats and people in authority just cave in. As they say 'empty vessels make most noise'. Lagopus….. Somewhat inconvenienced but in true British fashion it is 'Keep calm and carry on'.

One thing I have never been able to get my head around, folks making death threats against people here in Brit land who own and carry guns. Their name is correct "The Loony Left" these folks have no idea of reality about sporting people though your Roosevelt's words they should take note of in a way, each one carries a big stick.

I haven't encountered loony behaviour---quite the opposite, more likely rolling of the eyes with look of resignation---when I mention in the company of strangers shooting birds and animals where I live in North America.

For real sport, London is the best place to drop that I'm hunter and trapper. Especially in a pub. First, a shocked silence. Then the old white-haired man must be joking, especially one with a sweet, old white-haired wife.

I taper off the Englanders with soothing words that I don't apologize for what I do, and my type are like dinosaurs who won't last forever. When we die it will be as they want it to be. Often my victims buy me a drink.

Loony left is right. When they get real pissy, I ask them straight out how much money have they spent on promoting wildlife? Almost all say nothing or harp about joining some Nature Group. Then I explain I’ve spent tens of thousand on habitat improvement and game management. I ask them how many nesting boxes they put out for wood ducks? Zero is their answer. I’ve put out almost a thousand in my lifetime. I put out 30 this year alone on land that I’ll never hunt around. Just so more wood ducks can hatch a brood. Until they stop running their mouth about things and start doing real labor to make things better I won’t listen to anything they ever have to say.

The loony left is getting to be almost out of control here. They want to dictate policy based on whatever their own “facts” tell them. Never mind if their “facts” are all made up or just flat out wrong. They want to spend the money but not do any work of their own to earn any money.

I see you are still playing the same tired old song King... the one about the inevitable end of hunting and the shooting sports. Take a look at this current thread where Chad Linder gives us a report about his young son and other young men who attended the Southern.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=544612&#Post544612

It looks like there is a new brood who are ready to replace anti-gun dinosaurs like you, and who hopefully won't be so willing to throw in the towel and hand the world over to Liberal Left anti-gun loons.

By the way, President Trump withdrew the U.S. from the U.N. Small Arms Treaty two days ago. Do you think Biden or any of your precious Liberal Left Democrat contenders would do the same to preserve the 2nd Amendment?

Yeah well, much ado about nothing. A loop hole discovered and re-legislated. Long live our pals in the UK! They are quite capable.

"It really does matter who we put in the White House when it come to maintaining our Constitutional Right to own and shoot firearms, and that includes our doubles."

keith, the treaty has nothing to do with our doubles. For all the good fortune of sons following fathers in our fraternity, where one comes in hundreds no longer have an interest.

There were more than a dozen gunners living on our road 30 years ago, running 10km from the Trans-Canada Highway to the Northumberland Strait. Now there's one in a gunner's paradise--me.

The NRA's infighting culminating in Oliver's departure and LaPierre talking extortion today, with New York opening an investigation of its finances, won't do much for the brand, either.

Hopefully not long for this world either.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/01/nra-russia-investigations-gun-lobby

King, did you read or listen to the words of the US President? He accurately framed the issue as a national sovereignty issue. How would you expect an international arms treaty to work without identifying the 'arms'? Of course, it's rediculous to think a eurocrat will come knocking on a US door to confiscate, there would be many smaller increments that preceeded, eh?

Don't worry yourself over reports of infighting at the NRA, a sitting US President wouldn't give a policy speech at a venue that wasn't fully vetted. Their brand is just fine in truth, just not in the hearts of those who feel otherwise. Are they investigating 'finances' or contributions to lawmakers that implement policy that agrees with the NRA's stated goals? Don't forget, 'Natural England' is a powerful group of buddies that may have an agenda, but certainly has a CEO.

edit to add, nca and secular progressives, better than any fund raising drive the NRA could dream up

Two things: politicians framing things as they see it doesn't make it so, and none should worry about how NRA entanglement with a gang of Russian influencers turns out.

The FBI always gets its man, and LaPierre is raging that some of his men got the NRA into a honey pickle. The only small increments that come to mind are bump stocks, eh?

It's good to see nca225 and King Brown being so gleeful about the remote prospects that recent events at the NRA might do the organization lasting damage. It is just further proof that the Liberal Left Socialists who frequent this forum are no help to the cause of maintaining our 2nd Amendment Rights.

There has been infighting and turmoil at the NRA before, and it appears that King's nemesis LaPierre will continue to have overwhelming support of members and the Board of Directors. Ollie will be but a footnote in the long history of the NRA. The investigation by New York State is simply more evidence that the Liberal Left is engaged in a never ending quest to undermine our gun rights... this time by attempting to weaken and damage the NRA.

This is the kind of crap King, nca225, rocky mtn bill, and other Liberal Left Democrats celebrate. It is foolish to think we need back-stabbers like this in our ranks.

The U.N. Small Arms Treaty did not pose an "immediate" threat to doubles or the 2nd Amendment. But supporters of the U.N. Small Arms Treaty were repeatedly asked to include language that specifically protected our 2nd Amendment Rights. THEY REFUSED ANY SUCH GUARANTEE. Liberal Left Anti-gunners have repeatedly shown that they cannot be trusted when it comes to infringing upon the Gun Rights of law abiding U.S. citizens. Only a LULLER like the anti-gun troll King Brown would ask us to trust them by signing on to a binding U.N. Treaty that opened the door to giving up our sovereignty.

How many times do we have to hear anti-gun Liberal Liberal Left Democrats promise to respect the 2nd Amendment, and then see them work relentlessly to weaken it by passing new anti-gun laws or appointing anti-gun Judges? Then we have guys like King... constantly predicting the demise of the NRA, even when membership surged in 2013... And predicting the demise of the shooting sports even as millions of new gun owners joined our ranks when his hero Obama threatened new restrictions. This will be his enduring legacy here. King is about as helpful as a screen door in a submarine.

Update .
After working all hours that God sends to draft new licences over the last few days , including working all weekend . The Government Department Natural England have managed to write documents that are totally inept and unworkable . The major Sports Associations have released statements that the proposed new documents are not fit for purpose . Meanwhile our newborn lambs and previously protected species are subject to injury , harrassment and death from these marauding pest species . Thank you Conservationist Loony Chris Packham.

Not gleeful, keith. Just saying the US and this board doesn't need more the-sky-is-falling notions. It's much about nothing for shooters---we've been through this here previously---and truth and justice will unfold as they should in good time.

LaPierre has given a strong rebuke to NRA leaders and supporters for messing around blatantly with the Russians for partisan political advantage, and the only one smiling in US-Russia relations today is cagey Putin. Keep cool.

When truth and justice unfolds King, we wil most likely see that you are on the wrong side again. Too bad you weren't so interested in pols playing footsie with Putin when it was Obama promising Medvedev he would be more flexible after the 2012 election, or when the Clintons were getting very large money for speeches after the Uranium One deal.

That is a real shame, Salopian. But just as your govt is quite capable of doing things like that, ours--unfortunately--also goes astray on occasion.

Shooters vacation in places like Toronto, truth and justice are based on Constitutional Rights, not advisory boards. Whose truth and social justice, the gun control by extinction corollary advisory board?

There's no consensus of constitutional rights, craig, if we're to believe pros and cons of what members say about courts interpreting different ways, depending on who's "in."

As for truth and justice, the US usually gets it right over time with its splendid checks and balances. In that sense, the final arbiters are voters, not advisory boards.

And keith thinks he is one of the real Americans. The NRA acts as a slush fund for a major foreign advasary to influence our politics in the advasary’s favor and keith promotes the view that investigating that conduct is an attack on the 2nd.

keith’s patriotism is as deep as a sheet of paper is thick.

Real Americans would demand their money back from the NRA, not spread lies to cover up its unpatriotic actions.

What would proletariat of the world know about real Americans? You should stick to your strengths, whine-n-campaign.

For starters thrifty, real Americans think that it’s bad when foreign adversaries seek to influence our elections. Real Americans also think it is bad when the the political party of the foreign adversary’s favor accepts the adversary’s help, and takes actions to conceal the assistance.

I know when you are only armed with pros and only have limited loyalty to your country this kind of stuff is difficult to understand, but you should try anyways.

Americans rebelled against Britain for a reason. Just about everything legal here in America is the complete opposite of how it is done in England. Right down to hunting licenses. Here in America, hunting is the Everyman sport, as opposed to the sport of aristocracy and bureaucracy in England etc. Let alone the rules of free speech, search and seizure etc

I was unaware that anyone actually believed the Russia hoax. Using it for political gain was unseemly, but some people will do anything for power. Does this guy still believe it, or does he say the Mueller Witch Hunt Report was also a Russian trick, and that the president is actually "guilty" and all we need to do is spend the next five years investigating and then we shall surely find some evidence?

Man this gets old....

The NRA has nothing to do with the problems that this country is experiencing. As to the Russians interfering in our elections - hello, they have most likely been doing it since the end of World War II.

Wasn't it Obama who told Putin that he would "have more leeway after the election." ??

Wasn't it Obama who mocked Mitt Romney for claiming that Russia was a threat?

Wasn't it Obama who injected himself into the Israeli elections?

Wasn't it Obama who injected himself into the Brexit debate?

Who used the IRS and FBI as a weapon against his political enemies?

The left is so full of horse dung and anger that they don't realize the severe damage that they are doing to this country.

Russian collusion didn't work, so now it's all about racism and white supremacy. And guess what? That won't work either.

As to what "Real Americans" want, we want secure borders, real immigration reform, and get to work on repairing and upgrading infrastructure. The left could have been working on all of these but that it is not their real agenda.

Get over Russia, and get over racism, white supremacy and division.

If that is all you got, pushed by Biden, Sanders, or Warren, enjoy the second Trump term.....

Here is something to consider. We constantly hear from the left that white supremacy is the biggest threat and cause of death in this country. Yet in all of the high murder and shooting cities like Chicago
(1600 plus shootings this year so far), Baltimore (homicide numbers are highest in the country), Los Angeles etc.
How many of those shootings and homicides were committed by white supremacists"?

Dumbest argument I’ve heard to date is that all guns are designed and made by whites so blacks can kill blacks. Talk about twisted liberal logic. But is there any other type of Liberal logic?

I think gun violence in Canada is split near 50-50 between gang warfare and general public; don't know about colour.

That observation might be significant if gangs comprised 50 percent of the population in Canada. But they don't... not even close.

King's observation, if we can believe him, proves that if the rights of anyone should be infringed upon, it should be segments of the population that belong to street gangs. Not law abiding citizens in Canada or elsewhere.

Great point King. I'd much rather see Stop-and-Frisk searches and profiling of gang members, than more laws that affect law abiding citizens.

And in the last civic election in Toronto, the site of much gang violence and gun play, a major issue was getting the police to stop "carding" individuals on the street. Carding is simply stopping someone and checking IDs. Because it was "racist" to do so. So the new mayor directed the chief of police to have his men stop carding. The frequency of gun violence and other issues subsequently spiked upwards.

Surprise Surprise!

They do their level best not to publicize the racial profile of those who are shot and those doing the shooting. Overwhelmingly black, with a bit of Asian thrown in for good measure.

Ooops, how racist of me for point out facts.

not good...limey elite need outlet for their pent up hostility issues...

otherwise, they are apt to go invade some hapless place like belieze or maybe cuber...

anybody else seen "pennyworth"? says alot about british culture, not to be confused with being english...

Ed- you want to see a great movie about the British military "culture" and elitism- circa 1904-- see "Breaker Morant"-- same elitism as evidenced somewhat by British Gen. Haig at his "Butcher's Bill" from the battle of the Somme 1916==

Only the upper class attend Sandhurst Military Academy and become Officers who later plan and lead enlisted men to disaster and death- Monty's "Op Market Garden" speaks to that- in spades. RWTF

"we shot them under rule 303"

That is correct- you have seen the movie then? In "Nam" the update to that philosophy was: "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out later."-- an antithesis to the words of wisdom from a German philosopher-- "When you set out to destroy monsters, take care not to become a monster yourself"!! Foxie

no man begins life as a monster...with perhaps the exception being those born into the british royalty and their hired henchmen...

and the "pennyworth" series is well worth watching...

Thanks, Edster- My wife is hooked on the limey soap opera series- Downton Grabby-- now a movie based on all that pomp and circumstance crap is about to appear-- Like to have the shotguns shown on the driven shooting scenes however--So how do I view the "pennyworth" series?? RWTF

I'm so glad that you both are able to contribute to this subject. A chip on each shoulder gives a far more balanced view than simply spouting class envy on your own. It must be awful for you to have to live with so little history or breeding but take strength from the assurance that we will give you equally little thought.

Possibly the most polite way I have ever heard of telling someone to get stuffed.

Some folks here could learn from your post.

foxie: pennyworth is available on amazon an elsewhere...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennyworth_(TV_series)

thruxton, many of us here are of western european ancestry...you know, english, welch, scot, irish, dutch, french and ah little bit spanyard...

many of our ancestors came here to escape the tyranny that was practised by the self proclaimed british royalty...we don need no kings nor queens nor any o dat here...thank you very much...

for the record i like downton abbey, and one of the reasons is the rifles and shotguns are correct and are shown quite a bit. hunting is shown positively. the writers could easily do better, of course, but as public tv went, it was very fair to guns. quite different from the anti hunting 'mrs brown', about queen victoria and her highland scot lover. the writers had an opportunity to do guns correctly, and instead made an anti gun, anti hunting statement. total bummer; that movie could have been perfect

I'd be fascinated if you could tell me more about this "tyranny". In 1215 we had the Magna Carta which was a complete sea -change of citizens rights. In 1620,,30 members of the English Seperatist Church along with a number of traders popped over the Atlantic to practice their religion away from the evil influence of the Church of England. By 1780 America was independent. Was all the tyranny occurring during those 150 years or was it something else entirely. You say they went to America to "escape tyranny" so is it possible that they were being tyrannised in England,Wales, Scotland, Holland, Ireland and France by English Royalty. Its so important to be clear about these things don't you think.

T-y-r-a-n-n-y, spelled out like this ......... taxation without representation. Then going to war to keep that policy in place and enforce it.

SRH

Trannies have rights too...

We do not look down upon you two because of the alternative lifestyle you have chosen.

thruxton: suggest you google history of british domination of (substitute name of country), read, reflect and then report back to us with any questions...

It's not that simple, Stan. Consider US debacle of Vietnam. Or the Bush Doctrine of the right to arbitrarily/preemptively invade any country and change its institutions if the US considered them inimical to its national interests. Iraq comes to mind. Standard procedure for empires: US propping up remnant of French colonial empire with its domino theory and then WMDs in Iraq. Don't recall any mention of taxation.

We shoulda taxed'em! We did tax Kuwait for kicking Iraq out of their country...Geo

Why do folks seem to forget that part of the Iraq story?

Fast forward to 1993 and kneel before your overlords in Brussels.

BoJo is trying to pull a Magna Carta and The Euros are telling him to piss off.


___________________________
There’s no England now.
https://youtu.be/vkt7YHG9Fys

"make the world england"...

Over the past five years especially I have spent a lot of time in England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Because we go way out of our way to do hands-on and DIY travel, nothing touristy, I could write a small book about our observations and experiences, unique among most visitors' experiences I am quite sure. Here are two takeways:
1) England and Scotland are nearly hopelessly politically correct, embracing Big Government with very little regard for individual liberties like freedom of speech, and
2) Many English truly believe that America did not bail them out in WWI and WWII
Both of these observations lead me, anyhow, to conclude that the British are incredibly insular and inward looking as a knee-jerk reaction against having been incredibly imperialistic, aka tyrannical. They are wearing blinders now and do not realize just how bad things are for them, or how they were perceived abroad.
Britain did indeed give the world the Magna Carta, and many other structures on which Western civilization is based. But now England is going backwards in every way. Hate to say it, but you guys there need another revolution (Britain had plenty). Time is running out so get to it. If your few good guys get the upper hand, I am sure that many American patriots will come help you straighten things out.

You're mixing up today's world with the 1770's. You can't do that and be credible.

It isn't that simple ............ today. But, it was then!!! And it was tyranny, Thruxton notwithstanding.

SRH

stan, war is never simple... it was not so then and it is not so now...

our revolt against british tyranny was very much a complex civil war...

and like most wars, it was really about money and power...

Stan it's called the Joe Biden effect.

Doesn't much matter...in a few years England will be ruled by Muslims

muslims hunt wid hawks...as did the english long ago...

did ah eva tell you bout mah grouse huntin owl, his name were henry, as ah re call...

Years ago you told me his name was Benny. Your mind is slipping ed. Better freshen up the old brain with some of King's "Lydia Pinkam's Elixer".

yeah, yeah, benny is da owl...henry, he wuz ah chicken hawk...had to shoot henry, murderin little bastard dat he wuz...

now benny, he ran off one spring... wint way up north wid dis here snowy white beauty, wid da bright blues eyes...sware he stopped by last winter, cant be sure...or wuz hit winter befo last? ah fur gits...

While the American Revolution was indeed Complex it was not a "Civil War". Our Forefathers did not try to take over The British Government, only remove themselves from it.The So=Called American Civil War was exactly the same situation, The South never tried to "Take Over? the US Government, jst remove themselves from t

Correct, well said and to the point!

Best,

Greg

you boys need to read some more rev war history...

south of new england there were thousands more loyalist or tories, than there were up north...

currently reading "the british are coming" by rick atkinson...

highly recommended...

ever hear o dees guys:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalist_(American_Revolution)

If Wikipedia made as many mistakes in that one as they did on the of Fort Sumter, the best thing to do is Trash it. Robert Anderson was essentially a Southern Sympathizer & recommended to Lincoln they abandon Charleston Harbor. Lincoln said NO & ordered him to hold it at all cost. Anderson was a loyal Soldier so he held it as long as it was feasibly possible. When he saw that further fighting would only cause a needless loss of the lives of his command, he surrendered. He and his troops were escorted by Confederate vessels to Union ships which had been held outside the Harbor, no prisoners taken or no further loss of life, which for the entire battle had been ONE Union Soldier, & he was killed by an exploding powder Keg inside the fort. When informed off the Surrender Lincoln said that's OK, it served its purpose. Its purpose was to give Lincoln an "Excuse" to call for 75,000 troops to put Down the Southern Rebellion, which was of course Un-Constitutional.

Wikipedia is less useful than toilet paper. It is so politicized and bent towards one point of view in everything and in every way. Sad, because it was a neat idea...like all of the Leftist ideas, it sounded great, but failed when implemented.
The American Revolutionary War was America's first civil war. It was Tory Loyalist vs. Patriot Rebel, all from the same towns, same counties, same colonies, same families, from one end of the colonies to the other end. Whether we call it a civil war is immaterial; the net result was that neighbors were shooting at each other, like in a civil war. America nearly fought a civil war in 1794 over the issue of slavery, but postponed the inevitable clash by leaving the issue up to new states as they were admitted to the union. Bleeding Kansas etc. Even as the Plains Indians were starting to really fight back, too little too late, too primitive. None of this is worth re-litigating, because those of us here probably have a lot more in common than what divides us, and another civil disturbance seems to be looming ahead

you guys are so funny...wikipedia is wrong when it tells you what you dont wanna hear...but, i bet you love it when it tells you what you do wanna hear...i have never found mis info at wiki...it may not be perfect...nothing is...

however, it is the best source of factual info that i have found on the net...if you have a better one, please do let me know...

meantime, do report here any data you see posted in the wiki article about loyalist, that you can prove is false...

ED;
Another interest of mine is antique Sewing Machines {non-electric). Write-ups on some of these is about as accurate as saying Moses Built the Ark in order to cross the red Sea.

Wiki articles can be written by anyone. Many have absolutely no qualms about letting a few acts stand in Their Way.

What dd I post that you found Non-Factual?

No, the American Revolution was not a "Civil War". The Tories were not trying to take over the government, they were trying to ensure it remained in the hands of England. There were Union strongholds in the South as well as Confederate strongholds in the North. This did not make this a Civil War either as the fight was not for control of the same Government, but of the Right to form a New Nation & Government.

an miller, no one detests lincoln here more than me, except perhaps you...

but, in fairness, please cite the source that claims to have heard lincoln state that it is ok that fort sumter surrendered and that it served its purpose...or were you actually there, when the great usurper uttered those wicked words? and, if you were there, then why didnt you shoot him when you had chance...thereby, saving us from all of the death, destruction and misery that followed...

and as to the constitutionality of raising troops to put down rebellion, that power is somewhere in the articles, as i recall...and certainly in the president's oath of office...

ever hear of the whiskey rebellion...

https://www.history.com/topics/early-us/whiskey-rebellion

a rebellion put down by the power of president washington...

civil war, as defined by webster:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civil%20war

unaware of any confederate strongholds in the north...

how many regiments were raised in the north to support the rebel cause?

I took the liberty of quoting the definition from your link. One can readily see it proves my point. In the case of the /american /revolution the /war was fought After the colonies had declared their independence from GB. The So-called American Civil /War was fought After the South had declared itself independent from the US.
Getting past my bedtime, will address the rest tomorrow.

agreed, the so called american civil war, was really a war between two cultures, based on two economic systems...

one based on master and slave and the other based on robber baron and free labor...

marx did not care for either one...

Typically, the side that won gets to call it what they want and history records it as such, cause its written by.....

Southern by birth and inclination, but as I see it the Americans won so it was a win for all of us. Call it anything you wish...Geo

Ed;
I am familiar with the /whiskey Rebellion on Pennsylvania. It occurred while George Washington was President. The situation was totally out of hand, innocent people were being murdered. Local Law enfor cement simply did not have the manpower to control things, so Washington used this clause in the constitution to "Legally"send in back-up.

The situation in Charleston was in no way related to that in Penn. Everything which occurred in Charleston was on South Carolina soil, a part of the CSA & not the USA. The Constitution gave Lincoln ABSOLUTELY NO authority to send troops outside the USA. Immediately after Fort Sumter Lincoln called upon the States to provide 75,000 armed troops to "Invade the South". Yes I am well aware he used the term "Put Down the Rebellion" Be Honest, he did not need armed men to put down the rebellion IF they stayed on USA soil, did he??

Bottom line is the CSA did not start the War, it was ole Abe's War all the way.

Geo;
For a major portion of my life I felt exactly as you have stated. After all that was what I had been taught in School from the history books. Then One Day I came upon some info that didn't quite seem to match what I had been taught, don't recalll now kust what it was. This led me to begin searching for any bits & pieces of info I could find on this era.The more I dug the more I came to realize just how much we have been lied to over all these years. I then learned of the Sons of Confederate & that I would qualify so sought out a camp to join. You see they did not brainwash me into beconibg a member, I sought them out. I am currently serving as Cam commander of the B F Cheatham, Camp 72, Starnes' Division of the TN SCV. I stronglyurge anyone who has confederate ancestors to seek out an //scv cqmp & jjoin, then take an active role in it.

Preview

Miller as much as I admire your posts and respect you as a person, I'll stick with what I said. The result of the "late unpleasantness" was the preservation of our country.

We'd never have become what we are today as two competing neighbors, and the war would have gone on, not over slavery which became obsolete anyway, but over westward expansion.

And yes, my forefathers fought under the stars and bars, but since have faithfully served the stars and stripes. In fact, I did too...Geo

Warfare between England/ English troops and American colonists began in 1774, picked up steam through 1775, and by 1776 was so far and broadly under way that only declaring independence made sense.

Not too many, Eddie- BUT there was a strong Confederate spy ring and underground network in Detroit, MI- a gateway from Canada to the East, and the order of the golden knights was fairly effective at spying and sabotaging the North under "Honest"????- Abe Lincoln and his anti-slavery gruppen--

Don't tell me the Northern industrial "robber barons" of the 1860-1870 era didn't batten themselves "big-time" on those lucrative Gov't wartime contracts- and how many of those "Captains of Industry" sent their sons off to die in the bloody war foisted upon the America public? Not very many is my guess-RWTF

how many of those "Captains of Industry" sent their sons off to die in the bloody war foisted upon the America public? Not very many is my guess-RWTF"...

some did...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_Hall_(Harvard_University)

One of TR's sons died in WWI, as did another shortly after the D-Day invasion in WWII. Some of those leaders put their money where their mouths were.

Ed, Two points:1) The number of well -positioned Northeners who fought is a matter of record.2) Laborers in the North were paid; they were not owned by their employers. Your conflating them with slaves only proves what a bigoted and ignorant ass you are. Go watch Fox News and torch a shotgun.

Kermit Roosevelt died in a plane crash in WW1-he was the son who went with TR on the African safari-- Teddy Jr. died during the D-Day invasion. Believe he received the CMH- was the kind of Officer who lead his men from in front- like Patton and Irwin Rommel. RWTF

bill: listen up...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIfu2A0ezq0

I love Ed's appeals to authority in support of his argument: Karl Marx and Tennessee Ernie Ford! At least I think he was citing Karl and not Groucho.
Bold strategy Cotton!

slavers and robbers are both capitalist...

karl marx did not care for either one...

Whats all this to do with crow shooting?

Apparently, very little. But Dave gives Ed "carte blanch" to express his crazy notions. Back to crow shooting. I've seen some of the George Digweed videos on both crow shooting and feral pigeons shooting in England. Amazing. I've been a die-hard crow and barn pigeon shooter for many, many years-I also am a varmint shooter- fills the gaps between the short upland bird seasons, and here in Central MI- the diminishing pheasant shooting/hunting. RWTF

bav: killing for pleasure is mindless barbarity...

many of my posts here are feeble efforts to stimulate electrical activity in the grey matter between the ears of some mindless barbarians here...it is mostly a futile effort, i fear...but alas, ah keep tryin...

Dis-agree- shooting pest birds like feral pigeons and crows is an aid to the farmers and their crops- also best target practice a avid shotgunner can get "off season" using the same shotguns he will use in the Fall seasons for ducks, geese and pheasants-- also a good warm up for those lucky enough to live in the dove hunting States-- believe pigeons and doves are "cousins"--No barbarism involved- just feathered targets instead of orange clay discs-- RWTF

Quite right,,our General license only allows us shoot pigeons and crows for crop or livestock protection. What would you suggest we do with our guns otherwise Ed,,,,I'm sure a lot of people could suggest what you could do with yours.

"shooting pest birds like feral pigeons and crows is an aid to the farmers and their crops- "

come on foxie, even you must know that what you are saying here is self seving bull shit...right down there with "harvesting game"... like wild animals and birds are some kind of vegetable crop we plant in the spring and reap in the fall...call it what it is, killin for recreation, aka sport...

"What would you suggest we do with our guns otherwise Ed,,,,I'm sure a lot of people could suggest what you could do with yours."

collect erm...shoot erm at clay targets...and trade erm, which is what ah do wid mine...

Eddie, eddie- how can you be so dense. Our British friend Lord Thruxton means, what the late Ernest Miller Hemingway once said in re: a similar scenario-- "Upstick-Asswise".. Killing animals and birds is part and parcel of the American history- for food, for sport, for survival, and for fun (in my case).

Nothing "makes my day" then when I swing a 12 bore tightly choked M12 Winchester through a high incoming: (1) barn pigeon, (2) crow, (3) mallard, (4) Canada goose-- touch the trigger with the Limey mantra of Bum, Belly, Beak and then BANG-- and see the feathers explode like a pillow with a frag grenade in the "belly" and the pin pulled. I call that-- a pillowcase shot--

Of course, you normally get more of the feathers from impact on pigeons and crows- but as the late, great gunning writer from Dixie once wrote in "The Dove"-- "You've had about all the thrills shot-gunnery can offer when you see a dove well lead in flight, crumple in the air at your shot". Doesn't get any better than that--Keep shootin' your clays games, and trying to "schlep" your used gun, none of that gets in my way-- RWTF

Well said !!
I do hope that if you are ever in the UK and have the time I can offer you a days pigeon shooting, either over decoys or flightline. You sound as if you would enjoy it.

I'd gladly take you up on that offer, M'Lord. I'd want to shoot my "pet" M12 12 bore of course, with the 3 shot plug in place.

Does your local pub offer "Black and Tans" as does Davey Bryne and the Shamrock pubs in Dublin, perchance? Love to try your steak and kidney pie, also some bangers and mash, bubble and squeek, and for dessert, some of that fabled spotted Dick. Sounds almost like porn, ey wot?

I'd even forget my Green Irish ancestry and the Potato famine and Easter Sunday disasters- we could talk about Downton Abbey- I've watched each episode with my wife- love the rebel character- Chauffeur- Tom- a true Mick to the bone. RWTF