I'm looking for information on a run of Citori's that were finished in Belgium.
No markings of any kind making reference to being made in Japan.
Not marked Citori but 525 on the floor plate.

The story goes that these guns were fit, finished and proofed in Belgium.
Gifted or made available only to high volume Browning dealers.

Anybody know anything?

525's with that engraving are pretty common.
Where did you hear this story?

Does this help?
https://youtu.be/7FHu1g2C8ec

The marks in the first image are those of Miroku.
I can't ID the marks in the 2nd image
It was proved in Liege.

Thanks Doc.
Checked against a latter 2017 "Miller" 425 with identical Miroku marks.
10 years apart with similar attributes. Long barrels,
the same wide flat rib, twin beads and no palm swell.



Kinda
Can you help a brother out with some engraving wisdom please?
(525 20 gauge, 32" barrels, 3" chambers, no ports, 11mm wide, no step flat rib)

Question, were Citori's made for the European market identified as Made In Japan ?

Ducks and pheasants is a normal pattern on some models
It looks like a std UK 525 to me

Have no explanation how it got stateside with no importer marks

Check it out

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=100557596

"...This is a European 525 sporting which are built in Belgium"

https://www.gunsamerica.com/930911254/Br...n-Productio.htm

Miroku built guns for the Euro market, and they were clearly marked Miroku. I'm thinking of the Mk60 and Mk70, but there were probably others. I own an Mk70 in 28 ga with Invectors and 30" barrels. No idea how it got here.

I think the listing is inaccurate.

325,425 & 525 and Citoris are all made by Miroku in Japan as far as anyone over here knows !! B125`s were made in Japan but finished in Belgium but were too costly to make. I stick to Mirokus !!!! or B25 models.

Oddly enough, nowhere on this gun is any reference to Citori, Miroku or Japan.
This shouldn't count as "clearly", right?



I would think a manufacturer should have to say it somewhere on the gun in human writing,
words like Citori, Miroku or Japan for it to be considered clearly, right?
This gun is not clearly marked as to where it was produced if Browning wants the world to know it was made in Japan.




.

My Euro Miroku Mk70 is clearly marked Miroku. That is a sample of one. My guess, and it is only a guess, is that your 525 was built by Miroku in Japan, but proofed in Belgium for sale in a specific market with their proof requirements.

The Miroku marks "clearly" indicate the gun was made by Miroku.
Japan is not a member of Commission internationale permanente pour l'épreuve des armes à feu portatives
In order to sell the gun in Great Britain or Europe, proof by one of the CIP member proof houses is required.

So it's a (Citori) 525 made for a specific European market/seller, which was not later imported by an agent into the U.S. (or it would be so stamped), and likely was hand carried into the U.S. by a visitor to Europe, member of the military, or a U.S. government employee

There are two rows of letters both above and below the stamping on the underside of the monoblock.

Can anybody read that?

Since Bob rotated the pix, I think I see 'DSA NY'.

Could that be the importer?

I still can't begin to read the bottom line of text.

Good eye. Best I can do trying to enhance the image.

Bet it is BSA NY. British Sporting Arms- Charles Schneible in Millbrook, NY.

And in Doc's blowup, it looks the Belgian proofs are stamped partially over some earlier stampings.

Well done Greg. Once again we're smarter together than alone.

I read BSA NY above and Millbrook below, over-stamped the Miroku marks = the U.S. importer.

What we don't know is the original European importer/dealer, and why the gun was not marked Miroku. And the marks on the barrels.

Browning.

Bob: the Belgian proof certificate under "Marque" lists Browning. "Marque" is "the make" or maker's mark so I believe you are correct that Browning imported the gun to Europe.
If Browning marketed and sold the gun however, why is there no Browning name on the gun? Why would Browning gift the gun to Browning dealers without the Browning name? Could it have been imported by Browning for a dealer as a tradename gun, and never marked as such ie. Fusils de Chasse de Joseph? Interesting.

Does the stupid deer head cartoon on the trigger guard count?

That is, after all, a registered trademark.

It has always looked out of place on a shotgun.

My latest has that stamped into the wood.

Needless to say, I don't display the logo on the rear window of my truck as is so popular here.

The deer head wouldn’t bother me on a Citori. Not at all. But, I sure don’t want to see it on a BSL or a Superposed.

Someday I’ll tell all you guys the story of the weird mark I saw on a Red Label.

Best,
Ted

I was never that fond of JMB's bald dome either.

The FN butt plate, however, I do like.

I'm sure if this gun was made for a 'volume dealer' the trademark would look just fine.... it's the mark of money.

Even with it, there's no doubt this is a very nice gun.

I especially like the part about no porting. That's why I bought the CXS.

3" 20 gauge, 32" non ported barrels.
6lb 14 oz
14 7/16 LOP to a cut butt and an "Old English" pad.
The barrels and gun weight alone buy a lot of wood and pad forgiveness.

Indeed Bob.

I managed to find an unported 30" 20 gauge Citori XS about 15 years ago.

Seven pounds exactly, with very nice wood for what those guns sold for.

It remains the best handling shotgun I've ever used, bar none. All it needs is better triggers.

It is my understanding that the Miroku O/Us built for the Euro market are not ported. The only thing that kept me from buying a Browning 20 ga Feather XS Sporting when they were available was that they only came ported. That's a non-starter for me.

It took them a long time, but they seem to have gotten the message about the ports.

I expect that to become optional again catalog wide.

They're stupid if they don't.

I’m not all that crazy about porting either. But, it doesn’t bother me all that much either. I know some people believe it modestly may reduce recoil but more so may aid in taming muzzle rise which may help the set up for a quick second shot. Many top notch competitors in the various shotgun shooting disciplines shoot ported guns. For a serious competition gun, I’d do just about anything to mitigate recoil. After all, a competition gun is mostly just a tool for the serious competitor. Mind you, I’m not condoning barrel porting, but there may be some positives to go along with the negatives. Having said all this, the last thing I would do is port a collector quality gun, which a Browning Citori is not.

Porting does reduce recoil. That's easily proven but it's not much with a shotgun. The mass of powder gas ejecta is only about 4% of the total and you might lose 20-30 FPS velocity due to the vent off. So, a few percent reduction in recoil that could be obtained by using a lighter load. If you can tell any difference in muzzle jump due to jet effect you have finer senses than me.

A brake on a rifle really does make a big difference in recoil. The mass of powder gas ejecta is a high percentage of the total and when you redirect that it works wonders. A 300 WBY with a brake feels like a 30-06.

They both make noise, and for some of us the appearance is really objectionable.

I've stated that nobody should really care what their competition target killer gun looks like, and if the ports give you confidence then go for it.

I just want the choice available and will pick non-ported 100% of the time.

Well, that explains that.

So, there is nothing unique or special about this shotgun.

Chalk it up to market inefficiency and peddler hyperbole.

I had hoped a UK member would have set it all straight much earlier.

When you saw the name “Citori”, it should have been pretty straight.

Best,
Ted

I didn't want a 30 page argument with Mr Cash over it.

That's the rub Ted, I haven't seen the name Citori. It doesn't say Citori.

Maybe it's a Miroku Superposed?

What / where is Browning S.A. ?

Browning S.A. appears to be Browning International S.A., based in Herstal. They show numerous models of the 525, listed as the B525. They also show 725s and Cynergys, but a quick scan does not show any of them listed as Citoris. Probably a marketing decision, maybe some legal reason to not call them Citoris. The B525 may be to the US 525 as the Nikkos were to the Win 101. The video link posted by ClapperZapper shows the unboxing of a similar gun in a carton with a Browning label, showing it as a B525. Looks like the video was shot in the UK, but carton is marked as Browning US and CA, Morgan Utah and St. Laurent Quebec, nothing about Belgium. The Belgian website shows a lot of fancy variations of the 525, but doesn't say where they are made. The gallery shows some distinctly Asian faces on the gunmakers, perhaps at Miroku? Probably a pretty good guess. The Browning S.A. operation in Belgium is probably just a way to market 525s in Europe.

Thank you...
...and when you see ClapperZapper, tell him that I'm not argumentative.

He knows that. The 30 pages bit was the hint.

Best,
Ted

Uh huh......could have fooled me.

bOb what you have is a Browning O/U made for the European market...Browning has an entire line of guns and clothing for the European market not available in the USA.

Nice gun might be worth a small premium over an Amaerican model.

What have you done with jOe ??

I'm trying to be a changed man bOb never know when I might get drunk and fall off a houseboat.

bOb told me you’d be walking the plank jOe.

Whew! There you are, I was worried for a moment.

I owned a browning citori grade 6. In comparison to a European marketed browning 425 grade 6 its barrels were more muzzle heavy and its balance suffered for it . I think you would find that the barrels of the citori were overall heavier but I have no measured weights to back this up. The barrels of the citori were proofed to 3 inch magnum but the European market 425s and the Miroku 12 boresof that era were proofed for 2 3/4 cartridges only.The European marketed 425s also had Schnabel tipped forends in all their non trap models.
Both the citori and European marketed 425s were made at the Miroku factory but only the European marketed Brownings had the balance and feel of the Miroku badged guns. The European marketed 425s also did not have the trap like red ventilated pad that was original to my citori grade 6.
The citori labelled brownings in my experience tended to sell for less than the European marketed equivalent gun ,when second hand ,and I think ,from memory, that they were also sold with stocks which had a bit more drop ie lower than the European marketed guns.
I now own a Miroku Grade 5 12 bore MK 60 and an Alex. Dalgleish over and under based on a Miroku action the first has a pistol grip the second a straight grip. Both have the balance I would associate with a Belgian B25. The citori I owned in contrast had a semi pistol grip ,also referred to as a round knob grip I think.