Thought I had the Sears, A.J. Aubry, Meriden Fire Arms thing figured out
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=17474742BUT just received a Meriden Firearms Co., Meriden, Conn. 1908 catalog reproduction from Cornell Pubs, and this ain't them!
The top-of-the-line is the 'A' grade AE, Whitworth, Krupp, or 6-blade Damascus for $250.
I've been searching google and all I can find is the usual 'it was made by Sears' stuff. Any mention in
The Double Gun Journal Vol. 1, Issue 4, 1990 by Charles Carder or Vol. 6, Issue 3, 1995. I've got the Vol. 16, Issue 2, 2005 article by James Tyson. Help please!
There's a pretty good write-up in Carder's "SxS of the World for Y2K". They say that Meriden was founded in 1905 BY SEARS, ROEBUCK & CO.! I would have guessed they just made guns FOR Sears, as most companies did. They also mention 7 grades, from $40 to $250, and sold under their own name. The write-up is too long to copy but what you saw pretty much matches what Carder says.
Thanks Jim-that would be them. The illustration of the action is certainly different than the A.J. Aubrey action in the Sears 1908 catalog, though both are sidelocks. Were they made in the same production facility, managed by Aubrey?! The illustration of the building is
also different.
The first gun on the PictureTrail album is a 'The AJ Aubrey' but is stamped Meriden Fire Arms Co. on the rib. I'm really confused
As I understand it there was one company, owned by Sears and run by A. J. Aubry. The guns made for Sears used his name, the one made for the trade were sold under Meridian. I have a total of six Aubry/Meridians. All of mine are the same basic design with just one or two very minor changes. The quality of the mid grades is very nice. In the end I think Sears decided to buy clunkers from Belgian makers and better guns form others rather than try to make them their self and got out of the business after just a few years.
Hope I never come a cross the $250.00 model as I paid enough for the 52/53 model. Hate to think what a real nice example like that might cost.
Post deleted by HomelessjOe
Thanks jOe: I contacted the seller to see if those are 52s.
Has anyone actually seen a Meriden marked 'A' or 'B' or 'D Trap Gun' or 'E Quail Gun' "particularly for our Southern friends..."?
Is it possible this was all a marketing campaign and the guns were never made?? In 1908, a Parker AHE cost $325 and a LC Smith Monogram $375, Parker BHE was $225 and Smith 5E $215. Who would spend $185 for a B grade AE Meriden?
HomelessJ0e-
Very nice find! Thanks so much for posting that. My oldest shotgun and only damascus (and only hammer gun) happens to be a field grade Meriden Special. I don't think these shotguns ever got much respect, but I really like mine. I have handled and shot a contemporary LC Smith and at the risk of angering some LC devotees I would say that the Meriden was pretty close in terms of build quality and the stock on my Meriden shows no signs of cracking. My Meriden is quite a bit heavier (the LC had fluid steel barrels and the twist damascus of the Meriden is extremely robust). But the Meriden patterns very nicely (better than the LC I shot) with the 7/8 oz loads I use and I have shot the Meriden as well as I can shoot any shotgun on trap. Looking at the rib on the Meriden one can see a very heavy Parker influence and this may be no accident as the Meriden could have easily have been designed and manufactured by moonlighting or former Parker employees, and one might easily conclude that the new Meriden Firearms Company had no reservations about using the Meriden connection to promote their wares. I think Meriden also managed to get one of the better engravers of the day to work on the high-grade guns.
Drew-
In my 1908 Sears catalogue, there is a section that discusses the fact that the Meriden Firearms Company would build to the customer's order. While I suspect few went to the trouble or expense, this makes for the possibility of finding any number of variations on the Meriden theme. "At $50 and upward [and who knows how high this could be] Mr. Aubrey will continue making extra fine, elaborately engraved special guns to special order." The company went on to state that if you were one of these lucky customers "Mr. Aubrey will be glad to take the matter up with you personally, referring to every little detail and personally he will tell you all about it... ."
My Meriden is an earlier shotgun and uses V springs in the locks, later versions were made using coil springs. It is in every respect, other than nomenclature, identical to the A. J. Aubrey double barrel hammer shotgun shown in the 1908 catalogue. I would be very interested in seeing some of the sections in the Meriden catalogue, particularly if my shotgun is mentioned and to see if the prices of the Meridens were on par with those of the A.J. Aubrey shotguns.
Doug
Doug-it's a digitally enhanced repro of a not very good catalog, and the pics don't really show the engraving patterns.
Inside the front cover is a pic of a factory 'Meriden Firearms Co. Shotguns Revolvers Rifles' which HAS to be the A.J. Aubrey run facility. The only guns illustrated are the 'Meriden' line of shotguns graded:
A with Whitworth, Krupp, or 6-blade damascus for $250 with AE
(interesting also that the Sears catalog Aubrey/Meriden guns didn't offer AE until about 1912?)
B with Krupp or 6-blade for $185 with AE
C with Krupp or 4-blade for $110 with AE
D "Trap Gun" with Krupp or 3-blade for $90 with AE
E "Quail Gun" with Krupp and ONLY 16G for $60 (no AE offered)
F with Krupp or 3-blade for $60 with AE
G with Krupp for $40
I once had the Quail model that had original 24" Krupp barrels. I remember that it was marked with an E, but not with Quail. Here is a high grade Aubrey, Serial no. 1000. Must have been a special gun. It has the Aubrey patent pop up sight at mid rib. This gun has auto ejectors.
thanks Daryl!-is that a damascus barrel? what model # is stamped on the receiver?
Drew, the barrels are Damascus. No grade is stamped on the receiver. The rib is marked Pat. Applied For like many were. Here's the pattern under the forend.
Thanks again Daryl-I can't pick out the ribband weld lines well enough to identify that as 4- or 6- blade, but obviously high grade damascus. And no maker's marks just in front of the flats to identify the Belgain maker?
No maker's marks anywhere on the barrels and no other marks on the receiver flats besides the serial no.
This is, IMO, a classic study of "gun trade." Most guns in USA were factory made. However, there were a few shops run by master gunmakers. The masters surely knew how to get out a best quality gun. The issue was how to attract commissions. A best grade gun then cost something like 1 to 3 years gross pay for a well paid worker/mid-grade professional; very similar ratio today.
Look at that engraving on that high grade A.J. Aubrey!!! It's on par with and rivals any of the other American doubles!!!
All the best
Rocketman, Rev, and others. Yes, this is a good study of the American gun trade, and American merchandising. The start of the Meriden Firearms Co. in 1905 was the result of the ability of the merchandising scheme of Sears. They operated out of warehouses, with no retail overhead like other previous businesses. They sold guns for many name concerns,including ammunition, but at much lower prices than retail businesses. The complaints from the retail market were listened to by the major ammo and gun manufactures, one of which was Winchester. Winchester and others eventually refused to sell to the undercutter , Sears, so as to protect their retail style outlets. Sears was on top of things and actually connected with Andrew Fryberg to produce lots of inexpensive guns for the Sears under various names. In 1904, Fred Biffar, head of the gun etc sales for Sears contacted A J Aubrey to design and produce a sidelock double barrel to be sold by Sears. In 1905 the Meriden Firearms Co was started to do just that. They produced the Aubrey design and used Aubrey's name on the guns as "Manufactured by the Meriden Firearms Co." This worked well until 1909 when Richard Sears left the company [President of Sears] and then Fred Biffer and later Aubrey left, too. After Aubrey left, the guns were marked Meriden without the Aubrey name. Sears was also manufacturing their own ammunition and buying ammo from Europe and Canada to market. Around 1910 the shooting public's preferences for firearms began to change to the slide action firearm. By 1914 the demand for other types was diminishing for Sears and the Fryberg guns were stopped and by 1916, or so, the Meriden plant was sold to New England Westinghouse. Actually alot of guns were produced in that 10 year span. Sears eventually did sell Winchesters etc, but noted in their catalog that they were not allowed to discount prices. A wonderful history of this concern, by Jim Perkins, is found in the Dec. 2005 Gun Report.
It has been suggested that the plant was sold to New England Westinghouse because they had just received a contract to produce Mosen Nagant rifles and bayonets for Russia. Some guns were produced in another facility on Center Street in Meriden until 1918 when Sears announced that the Meriden Fire Arms Company would discontinue the manufacture of sporting guns.
Rev, one more thought on this subject. Your starting post stated that you purchased a 1908 reprint. I have a strong feeling that it could be from around 1910. I have an original , marked "111V Edition 1." It has the grades advertised as you suggest above. I think prior to 1909, at least in the Sears catalog, the grades were number grades like 53, 58 etc.
The Cornell Pubs ? 1908 repro is ALSO labeled 111C - Ed. 1
I've seen another 'Meriden Firearms' catalog with a red cover.
Daryl,
That is an excellent summary. As the demand for sxs guns diminished so did the demand for damascus tubes. The damascus trade suffered and came to end circa 1926. The demise of the sxs was hasten also when the tariffs began to come down starting around 1915. A sxs is simply more labor intensive to build. The Belgians lost their edge in the marketplace as they went into an inflationary cycle. By the 1930's pump actions and semi-auto's reigned. There was also a resurgence of upland hunting, a result of the spreading ringneck popularity. By the early 30's every state that would have ringneck regulations had a huntable population.
Any idea who did the engraving on your gun?
Pete
That's the trouble talking about American built doubles... all roads lead to and end at the repeaters!!!!
All the best
Pete, I always enjoy your posts. Engraving on my gun ? I wonder if one could search the Meriden and closeby records for engravers. I am sure that all of the Aubrey and Meriden guns I have seen had the same person doing the birds at least. All are fat, small winged, good eating birds for sure. This gun has the background taken out for the scroll, ala Holland and Holland, and unlike most scroll which is cut in. But, the birds are the same as described above. In the back of my mind I seem to remember some discussion years ago about the Aubrey engraver, but I cannnot "pull it up".
As to the Damascus barrels being in short supply, I have correspondence from Baker Gun and Forging Co. with a potential client stating that their gun production is very slow due to the unrest in Europe and the resultant barrel shortage. I think this was in the 1913 period. I do know some companies had large supplies of barrel blanks, but Baker was not among them. I think Fluid Steel blanks from overseas were affected as well, so it was not the shortage of the composite blanks as much as it was the shortage of all blanks.
Rocketman, Rev, and others. Yes, this is a good study of the American gun trade, and American merchandising. The start of the Meriden Firearms Co. in 1905 was the result of the ability of the merchandising scheme of Sears. They operated out of warehouses, with no retail overhead like other previous businesses. They sold guns for many name concerns,including ammunition, but at much lower prices than retail businesses. The complaints from the retail market were listened to by the major ammo and gun manufactures, one of which was Winchester. Winchester and others eventually refused to sell to the undercutter , Sears, so as to protect their retail style outlets. Sears was on top of things and actually connected with Andrew Fryberg to produce lots of inexpensive guns for the Sears under various names. In 1904, Fred Biffar, head of the gun etc sales for Sears contacted A J Aubrey to design and produce a sidelock double barrel to be sold by Sears. In 1905 the Meriden Firearms Co was started to do just that. They produced the Aubrey design and used Aubrey's name on the guns as "Manufactured by the Meriden Firearms Co." This worked well until 1909 when Richard Sears left the company [President of Sears] and then Fred Biffer and later Aubrey left, too. After Aubrey left, the guns were marked Meriden without the Aubrey name. Sears was also manufacturing their own ammunition and buying ammo from Europe and Canada to market. Around 1910 the shooting public's preferences for firearms began to change to the slide action firearm. By 1914 the demand for other types was diminishing for Sears and the Fryberg guns were stopped and by 1916, or so, the Meriden plant was sold to New England Westinghouse. Actually alot of guns were produced in that 10 year span. Sears eventually did sell Winchesters etc, but noted in their catalog that they were not allowed to discount prices. A wonderful history of this concern, by Jim Perkins, is found in the Dec. 2005 Gun Report.
Daryl-
I think the Meriden and AJ Aubrey lines may have been sold at the same time, at least for a brief period of time. Drew has a Meriden catalogue from 1908 and the Sears catalogue from 1908 shows AJ Aubrey. Also, my Meriden has features of an early gun with the V springs and later versions of the Meriden and Aubrey appear to have used coil springs.
I have been somewhat dubious of the story that Sears set out to manufacture their own line of American made firearms when the majors refused to sell to them because the 1908 catalogue shows firearms made by LC Smith, Remington, Ithaca, Baker, Winchester, Marlin, Stevens, Hopkins Allen, Harrington and Richardson, Smith and Wesson, Colt and Iver Johnson. So if the majors had any problem selling firearms to Sears, they got over it pretty quickly. I tend to buy the story Sears presents in the catalogue, and that was the motivation for creating their own factory was to deliver a better American product at a lower price (and thus could compete with the cheap, and cheaply made imports). I do however notice a general absence of any ammuntion other than their own "Pointer" shells and Meriden cartriges. So it could very well be that the majors were not willing to see their ammunition discounted and/or sold through Sears.
I had better stop posting, I see my once glorious 5 star rating is now reduced to two- whoever I have offended, I am very sorry.
Doug
Post deleted by HomelessjOe
dbadcraig,
Actually most of all I know comes from owning a half dozen of these guns and looking at another score or so. Then there is the article, apparently very well referenced, that I refered to. If we take that article to heart, and I suggest you read it, then the Meriden name came after Richard Sears left and after Biffar and Aubrey left, too. There are relationships with Savage and others mentioned in the article, but the gist of my synopsis seems ok. Now, not all big makers joined the "cartel" against sears, but several ammo companies and Winchester did as well as some hinted at other gun makers. These cartells eventually gave in, as Sears, who for example sold millions of .22 shells , came up with their own manufacturing sources and foreign sources. All sort of interesting, as when Richard Sears took ill and quit, his successor was not the "gun" man that Sears was. Your theory could very well douse the article I quoted if we had catalogs from Sears from 1905 thru 1908.
Daryl-
Thanks and no doubt you and those who researched and wrote the articles know far more than I. I am nonetheless left dubious- particularly over the Meriden name being post AJ Aubrey when Drew has a Meriden catalogue from 1908 and my Sears 1908 reprint has AJ Aubrey. As you note if Winchester or any of the listed makers did cease sales to Sears, it was certainly short lived and the firearms Meriden lists in the 1908 catalogue are double barreled shotguns and break open revolvers, not exactly what Winchester would have been selling then. The major US double gun makers would have been Parker, Ithaca and LC Smith right? Of those only Parker isn't sold by Sears in 1908.
Anyone have those earlier catalogues in their library?
Doug
Doug: my 1902 Sears Catalog # 111 shows Smith guns up to No. 3 and Pigeon, Remington 1895 B grade, Ithaca up to Grade 2, Baker up to the Paragon, Parker up to VH, Winchester 97', and rifles by Marlin and Winchester. The shotshells are un-named but "are made for us under contract by one of the best makers in America."
From the Census for AJ Aubrey
1910 New Haven, CT - Guns
1920 Santa Clara, CA - Sporting Goods
1930 Stanta Clara, CA - Gunsmith
From the Meriden City Directory. The 1909 directory is not available. The color highlighting is from the search engine.
1906 Directory
1908 Directory
1910 Directory
The 1906 Sears Catalog has AJ Aubrey shotguns, but no Meriden shotguns.
Pete
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?for...S&geodiff=1This must be the place. It's depressing to have to remember when Chicago was a firearms owners friendly locale!!
jim
dbadcraig,
The reason I questioned Drew about his catalog, is that I don't think it is a 1908 catalog, but 1910 or later. My original, which must be similar to his, is annotated in ink pen along with a 40% discount in 1910. I believe Drew's catalog does not say anywhere it is from 1908 . As soon as Aubrey left, the guns ceased having his name. I cannot find similar models , with similar serial no. ranges, that mix the Meriden and Aubrey marks. These may be out there, but I have not seen them. My thought is that when Meriden was used as the gun's name, the grade designation changed, too.
Pete, thanks for the timeline.
I should have done this before. A pic of the album cover can be seen here
http://www.cornellpubs.com/Templates3/Meridan%201908.html
Drew, if you look at Cornell's catalogs, you will see that all of, or most of , their covers are made up. I suggest the 1908 date is not original. There are lots of other reprints out there with the wrong dates in their advertising. A Baker one comes to mind that was called 1915, but was actually a Folsom catalog from the 1920s. It started in the 80s, and even after notification of three companies doing the printing , the seller has not corrected the error. This has lead to some confusion on Baker history and I think you will find others erroneously dated. If we find an original catalog with the original date, then I stand corrected.
You're probably correct Daryl-did anyone else notice the catalog on the website is 'The Mediden Gun'?
Folsom did apparently used the neat Baker pic for some catalogs
Pete,
Aubrey appears in the patent record as living in Hopkinton Mass c1904...just incase your looking for more geneological clues...
Albert held at least 7 patents...
Daryl-
If Drew's catalogue has a spurious date then that does leave open the possibility that the AJ Aubrey line was "replaced" by the Meriden line. If so, that would have happened at some point in time after the departure of Aubrey, so it would be nice to look at the 1910 and later Sears catalogues and see if there are no longer any Aubrey firearms, but only the Meriden line. If so that would be some support for the evolution theory (re-branding) of the Aubrey line evolving into the Meriden line.
Others (and I have no way of knowing the basis for their comments) have stated that the Meriden line was marketed outside of the Sears catalogue, and to other retailers (i.e., hardware stores and sporting goods stores).
Serial numbers might also hold the key, but only if all the firearms were numbered in manufacturing sequence. Does anyone own (or has anyone seen) an AJ Aubrey hammer shotgun with a higher serial number than 24063?
Manufacturing details might also be a key. Does anyone own (or has anyone seen) an AJ Aubrey hammer shotgun with coil spring locks?
This is the sort of question the Sears company could answer very easily (and perhaps has already answered for the previous researchers).
I would love to see any articles on the Meriden and Aubrey lines if anyone would care to share them: dbadcraig@sbcglobal.net.
Doug
On the American Damascus thread, Robert raised a good point. Gun factories tended to get built were several "resources" were available, water (for power), rail and most importantly skilled labor.
I took Daryl's suggestion above and browsed (for only a few hours) the 1910 Census records looking for Meriden employees. The following is based on this casual venture and is by no means hard and fast. I found a number of men who were listed as "Laborers" with the Occcupation of "Gun Shop". I found a few blacksmiths also Occcupation of "Gun Shop" as well as a checkerer (sp?). Nothing surprising. Never did find my engraver(s). Then I noticed something. Almost to a man they had recently immigrated, in most cases date of immigration was 1906. A great many of them had their country of origin listed as Austria Poland. Again, none of this hard and fast...not sure I want to spend days scanning these records for a more accurate reading!
I thought about it some more. At 1st I thought, "Well I have found Meriden employees." Then I asked, "Why Meriden?" The answer of course is obvious, Parker Bros. Now I am not sure whose employees I was seeing.
On a side note, the "Brass Shop" and the "Silver Shop" employeed far more people than the "Gun Shop" in this little town.
So, did building the factory in Meriden hurt Parker? When it went out of business did that help Parker? When a corporate gorilla like Sears decides to play on your doorstep, I think perhaps some one made note of it.
Pete
Post deleted by HomelessjOe
Drew, is the "Mediden" gun a third gun in their history ?hmmm
My original catalog has a similar cover, but the gun is "The Meriden Gun"
db, I have heard of the Meriden line being marketed by others, but I have never seen them offered elsewhere . After reading Jim Perkins' article I see it is very well researched with names, places, and dates. Not like many "my gun" articles which only copy other people's mistakes. This article leads me to think that the Meriden, as was the Aubrey, was an exclusive line. It would be interesting to see if we could develope a serial no. group that might shed some more info on these guns. All of my observations have been the casual, not written down ones. In general when I saw a Meriden, I remember seeing higher numbers. And, when I saw an Aubrey, I thought low number. Nothing scientific or definitive here. I do think if we could have a bank of serial numbers on hand that we would find a few Aubrey numbers higher than a specific Meriden number. But if it were like other makers seem to have experienced, I would suggest that when Meriden started, their were some "old" Aubrey frames yet to be finished and we could find the odd , out of sequence , number.
Pete, thanks for the search of the records. I did not expect the immigrants to be Austrian. Too bad my memory on the engraver is not good. I think it came up in a discussion with the late Lanny Samson, who was a fine researcher. Maybe if we keep looking, good info will follow.
Daryl, Drew & Others: How many different Hardware or store brand Meridens have been noted..MDC
Daryl,
It sounds like a great idea. There is only so much that can be done with public records, catalogs, correspondence, etc. The best data always seems to come from documenting the serial numbers and the changes that occur.
Pete
MD- I've found the following trade names:
"A.J. Aubrey”, “The New Aubrey”, “Utica Special”, “Gibraltar”, “Challenge”, “Gladiator”, “Berkshire”, “Colton Firearms Co.”, and “Meriden.” This does not include the revolvers (some under “Howard Arms Co.”) and rifles.
There were also "Gladiator" guns that were both Field Grade Smiths and Fulton guns.
Ok, to get the ball rolling, I have seen the following numbers. All guns are hammerless sidelocks.
Marked "The A J Aubrey" with "Pat'd Applied For" on rib. #1000, #5521
Marked "The A J Aubrey" with "Pat'd July 19, 1907" on rib, #34956
Marked "The Meriden Firearms Co." #51463
If anyone will add to this list, it would be appreciated.
From Gunbroker:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=84047481Marked on the rib "Manufactured by the Meriden Firearms Co Pat'd July 19, 1907" #53579, on the flats 18 S30, on the bottom of barrels 2 53579. 30" steel barrels. No engraving.
Pete
I know the gun says Meriden, but that gun has all the markings and construction to me anyhow of a Crescent. Did Crescent use the Meriden name also?
Dave-
I think Crescent, Parker and Meriden (Sears) were all made in Meriden, CT at one time. From there I think the similarity ends, except one could easily conclude that the three companies may have shared workers (just as auto manufacturers in Detroit) and that ideas may have come along with those workers and perhaps the companies shared some of the same raw materials.
The Meriden is not in the same league as a Parker (but the twist damascus barrels used on the Meriden and Parker do bear striking similarities). From the Crescents that I have seen, I would say the Meriden is a bit better built and engineered than a Crescent. I do think Sears/Meriden was doing their best to deliver a very high quality product at a competitive price and pass on to the consumer the cost savings (at least some) of cutting out the middle man (through direct marketing).
Doug
I know someone with a Utica 12g. shotgun. I don't recall it saying Utica Special but it is possible. If you want I can get some info on it if that would be helpful.
Dave, I think Doug is right on, although I did not know that Crescent had a Meriden location at one time. I think that in 1908 Sears was offering the various Aubrey doubles in both hammerless and hammer models. In addition to that they offered three doubles made in Hopkinton by Andrew Fyrberg, who Sears had set up in the Hopkinton business a few years earlier. These doubles were called American Gun and New England Wonder in the hammer models, while the name of New England Hammerless was used for the hammerless. All three were sidelocks.
Doug, a closer reading of Perkins' article comes up with something interesting. In 1910, after the departure of Sears, Biffer, and Aubrey, SR&C "began offering Meriden firearms to the trade-brand market-----marked with whatever name the buyer wanted." Pistols of Fyrberg design were offered and Fyrberg design shotguns were offered with names such as Eastern Arms Co, and Howard Arms Co. It does not say that the Aubrey designed guns were offered that same way.
Daryl, A second look at the gun on GunBroker does show some differences I didn't see before from the Crescent. The locks, forearm iron and trigger guard mount look all the world like Crescent, at least to me. The lug on the barrel does not at all.
I am not sure of the Meriden CT connection for Crescent, in doing a google search I have seen both Meriden, CT and Norwich, CT stated as the place of manufacture.
Doug
Pete,
Could you please give the names of the Austrian immigrants? I would like to find out which part of Austria-Hungary they came from. Thanks.
Jani
On a hammerless 12ga pump shotgun:
Meriden Firearms Co. Meriden Conn USA
Savage Patents Granted. Mar. 5, 1912.
>
Also on the top of the barrel;
Fluid Steel Krupp Essen
>
The gun is not at all familiar to me. I've never seen another one (maybe they're as common as toothpicks!). 3 digit Ser#.
Any thoughts as to the Savage connection?
A lower grade Meridian is still a much better gun than a Crescent. I have had both and the fit and finish is much better on the Meridian.
I place Meridian at about a Baker level of fit and finish, much higher than any Crescent we commonly see. I know that some here do not pay much attention to either because they are not a Smith or Lefever. High grade Bakers were as nice as they come and the two higher grade Meridians that I own are very well made as well. I suspect that most makers could and would finish their gun to a much higher level for their own higher grade guns. We just see so many field grade guns that we forget that better guns could be had if the shooter wanted them and had the money.
Kutter, your gun represents the reality that Sears thought they were seeing. They made, after 1910 , pump rifles, one of Savage design. The gun you refer to was touted in Meriden's catalog, The Man Behind the Gun. That catalog doesn't have much on their guns, but has 25 or so pages of testimonials. In addition, they say that coming on Oct. 1, 1913 will be the "Meriden Repeating Hammerless Shotgun. Better than the rest." It was to have perfect balance, handsome lines, and "Genuine Krupp Steel Barrels". I am not sure I have ever seen one.
From Gunbroker
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=83752389"Meriden Fire Arms Co" on sideplate 12ga hammer with 30" damascus barrels, engraved. Seller says the serial number is 20063.
Pete
Pete,
Could you please give the names of the Austrian immigrants? I would like to find out which part of Austria-Hungary they came from. Thanks.
Jani
Jani,
Here is a snippet from the 1910 US Census track.
This is way off topic.... Notice the 2 lines above also have origins in Austria Poland. It appears Meriden, CT was a center for immigration from Austria Poland as there are large numbers of residents where that is listed as their birth place and the birth place of their parents. This is a common pattern in America during this period. People tended to settle where their family or former neighbors had.
Again, it is impossible to tell from these records which "Gun Shop" these individuals were employed at.
Pete
Pete-
Very nice find! I wonder how bad the pitting is in the barrels because that is not a run of the mill Meriden. It is engraved and it has the higher grade damascus barrels. Somebody paid around $22.50 in 1908 dollars for that identical shotgun which was marketed as "the AJ Aubrey Finest... millionaire's gun for the common people."
Doug
I've always found Crescent to be in Norwich, CT. In my small stack of H&D Folsom catalogues, in No. 18 their cheap gun is called American Gun Co. and their primary sidelock hammerless gun is the No. 6 Knickerbocker. Catalogues No. 23 and higher show their cheap gun as Crescent Fire Arms Co. and their hammerless gun is the No. 6 "Peerless" (The Old "Knickerbocker" Improved). The parts lists in catalogues No. 23 and higher show "Finished Repair parts for Crescent or American Gun Co. Guns." By catalogue No. 31, dated 1929-30, the same picture of repair parts says for old models, and the parts for New Models shows a bent piece of wire "V-Spring" replaces the coil mainspring on the lockplates.
All these models are bolted by an underbolt and wedge off the top lever into a slot in the rib extension.
Revdoc,
Colton was a forerunner to Union up in Toledo, Ohio, and involved in another SR&Co. adventure to outfit a factory to assemble Spencer pump guns from the remnants Bannerman unloaded on them. As I recall one of Uncle Dan's boys went to work there after D.M. Lefever ceased to exist.
Researcher- I trust you more than this un-named source- thanks for setting me and the record straight-
Doug
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Henry_Arms_Co_shotgunhttp://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_true_tha...lice_department
Doug,
It is nice. I was tempted, but already have way too many project guns. If I bought it, I would not be able to sleep. I would hear it crying every night to have the barrels redone, the stock sanded... Then there is that Colt 1883 I keep looking for or the Pieper Diana 10ga or the Remington 1 1/2 rolling block in 22lr...
Pete
Meriden hammer gun # 28167
http://www.gunsamerica.com/976970503/Gun...xS_Shot_Gun.htmFrom the PictureTrail album:
Meriden 52 hammerless #62308
Meriden 18 steel brl hammerless #71720
AJ Aubrey hammerless twist #13895
Berkshire hammerless twist #18335
Patents filed by Albert J. Aubrey:
Improved Safety for breakdown guns
Location: Hopkinton, MA
Patent number: 859477
Filing date: Dec 8, 1904
Issue date: Jul 9, 1907
http://www.google.com/patents?id=mJxCAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=Aubrey+gunSight For Firearms
Location: Meriden
Patent number: 839535
Filing date: Mar 22, 1906
Issue date: Dec 25, 1906
http://www.google.com/patents?id=E2lJAAAAEBAJ&dq=Albert+Aubrey&jtp=1#PPA35,M1Sight for Firearms
Location: Meriden
Assignor Sears Roebuck & Co
Patent number: 835091
Filing date: May 5, 1906
Issue date: Nov 6, 1906
http://www.google.com/patents?id=si9BAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=Albert+AubreyAutomatic Shell-Ejector for Firearms
Location: Meriden
Patent number: 887569
Filing date: Jan 14, 1907
Issue date: May 12, 1908
http://www.google.com/patents?id=qDRJAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=Albert+AubreyFore-Stock Fastener for Firearms
Location: Meriden
Patent number: 887568
Filing date: Jan 14, 1907
Issue date: May 12, 1908
http://www.google.com/patents?id=pzRJAAA...+Aubrey#PPP2,M1Gun-Lock
Location: Meriden
Patent number: 902639
Filing date: Jan 23, 1908
Issue date: Nov 3, 1908
http://www.google.com/patents?id=j3QPAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=Aubrey+gunSafety Hammer
Location: Meriden
Patent number: 911362
Issue date: Feb 1909
http://www.google.com/patents?id=6HIPAAA...+Aubrey#PPP2,M1Rifle-Barrel Construction
Location: Meriden
Patent number: 918491
Filing date: Jan 8, 1909
Issue date: Apr 20, 1909
http://www.google.com/patents?id=C2p-AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=Albert+AubreyPete
Pete-
Thank you very much for that information. Amazing to think that my humble Meriden hammer gun was "state of the art" in 1908, with two patented inventions incorporated into its design!
Actually it is very interesting that while the hammer gun was on the way out in 1908, Aubrey was still working to perfect it. Well his inventions, both the hammer gun lock and the fore-stock fastener worked and they work well to this date, nearly 100 years later.
Researcher (if I recall correctly) pointed out many months ago that the patent date appearing on the rib of the Meriden hammer gun is actually the date of the improved safety (which obviously was incorporated not in the hammer gun, but in the side locks as the hammer gun had no such safety).
Doug
I found some engravers.
William Gough, age 25, shows up in the 1900 census, married with 4 children.
The 1904 Meriden City directory shows John and William Gough as a contractors for Parker Bros. It has a strange reference "See Goffe" which refers to one Lucius Goffe. This makes no sense to me because in 1900 he was 63 years old and listed as a Grocer Merchant.
In the 1910 Census records.
John Gough, age 36, immigrated 1886 from England, not a US citizen. George Masters, age 24, immigrated 1909 from England.
Both were boarders at 85 Colony St, Meriden.
In 1910 John Gough did not have his wife Agnes with him. She was residing with him in 1900, 1920 and 1930. In 1900 besides his wife, there was his brother Harold, then 9 years old. Harold later married and raised 2 children while working as a machinist in Philedelphia. There is no record that Harold or his older brother John ever became US Citizens.
John Gough remained an engraver working in Meriden. He never owned a home nor had any children. George Masters may have returned to England, as I can not find any further trace of him.
So, as contractors were John and William also working for A.J. Aubrey?
Pete
I have found this reference to an A. Gough as a Parker engraver. So this may have been a family of engravers.
"The receiver and all of the metal attached to the receiver are elaborately engraved by "A. Gough". It is signed under the front of the trigger guard, "A Gough Designer & Engraver"."
PeteM,
You research hound dog! I wish I had your enthusiasm. I keep getting bogged down with anomalies that I can't explain. This thread is the perfect example.
Did you notice the the patent dates listed by Sven and Daryl don't match the patent record...like July 9 1907, and July 19, 1907...in the double threads 7/9/07 is a single trigger mechanism issued to C F Sawtell of Manchester N H (859,845)...and I don't have any double shotgun patents issued on 7/19/07 ...
I suspect that the USPTO has lost some patents over the century or the engraver just didn't care what date he cut, because it's doubtful that these guys both need new glasses...
My guess is that the patent is still dormant (not listed in any classification) waiting to be called up...I'll explain...years back I would check my files against the USPTO online classification threads only to find that numbers that I had gleaned from patent gazettes at the library, weren't anywhere to be found in the classification threads...so in order to obtain a large printable version of these flyers, I would simply do a number search on the Full-Text and Image Database...most times I would get the patent, including the classification page, then within about 3 days later, the number would appear in one or more classification threads...
I assume this is the case with the July 9 and/or July 19 patents
Unless you have a different take on it? Is there something obvious that I'm not seeing?
Craig,
Thanks I will check that A. Gough in the records and see what I can surface. Though I am sure if some real Parker lover reads this, they will have more at their fingertips.
Our Goughs keep getting listed as English. There are other Goughs in CT during this period. Some are listed as Welsh. I keep asking myself if they are all the same family.
Robert,
I notice anomalies. Sometimes I point them out, e.g. the city directory reference above. Usually I just quote the source and leave it alone.
In my job I see "bad data" everyday. I find it as no surprise that hand written records from 100+ years ago contain "bad data".
On a personal note, on one side of my family the name was changed some time during immigration. On the other side, I have only found 1 record that had that name spelled correctly. So what's a few vagaries in the patent office....
Did you ever look at his barrel making patent?
Pete
From the 1908 Catalog:
Pete
I did a bit more on the Gough's. Apparently William left and went to work for Fox. He apparently engraved their higher grade guns. There is some thought that he may have done engraving for Remington and perhaps also Colt. I loose track of him in the public records.
Can't locate an A. Gough and tie him to engraving, but that is not earthshaking.
Pete
Some more guns:
"The New Aubrey" on both side plates, 12 gauge hammer, rib marked: "MF'D. BY THE MERIDEN FIREARMS CO. MERIDEN CT. PAT'D. JULY 9 1907", #111510, 32" steel barrels. Choked extra full both barrels.
Serial no. 3457. 12 gauge. 30-inch Damascus barrels marked: Genuine Damascus. Matted flat rib with locking extension. Casehardened sidelock action with 50-60% coverage of border engraving, foliate scroll details and game scenes of pheasants, quail and ducks. Bar-action locks marked: The A. J. Aubrey. Extractor. Automatic safety. Checkered half-pistol grip stock of slightly figured walnut. Maker's hard rubber gripcap and buttplate. Checkered pull-off splinter fore-end
Pete
Drew and PeteM,
Thanks for all your work in posting real information about guns on this BBS. Drew's ability to catalog the info and Pete's ability to search old records , etc., really add to the enjoyment of learning about these old guns. Please keep it up. Daryl
Must be the under-employed parson seeking a meaningful life syndrome
I am keeping track of the serial numbers posted so far, but we need a bunch more gentlemen!
The A. J. Aubrey Hammerless3457, 34956, 5512
A.J. Aubrey Hammerless13895
Berkshire Hammerless18335
The New Aubrey Hammergun111510 (steel)
15208 (twist)
Meriden Fire Arms Co. Hammerless (not the high grade guns)
51463, 53579, 62308, 63381, 71720
Meriden Fire Arms Co. Hammergun28167, 20063
I did a bit more on the Gough's. Apparently William left and went to work for Fox. He apparently engraved their higher grade guns. There is some thought that he may have done engraving for Remington and perhaps also Colt. I loose track of him in the public records.
Can't locate an A. Gough and tie him to engraving, but that is not earthshaking.
Pete
Wm. Gough's middle initial was 'H' for his fathers first name 'Harry' or Harold. Harry was a Birmingham Gun trade engraver that came to the US and did work for Parker Gun Co. I have seen 2 Parkers signed by him (H. Gough)at the trigger guard attaching hole in the same manner that his son Wm H. Gough later signed most of the high grade Fox shotguns. Wm. was in charge of the Fox engraving shop. William also engraved for Savage after they bought up Fox and moved it to Utica. Wm. moved to Utica also. Wm. did engrave for Colt as there are many pics of his work in the Colt engraving books and usually a chapter devoted to his work/era. There was a John Gough that engraved for Winchester but I don't know if he was related. It seems to me that Wm. also cut for Winchester too.
Some add'l info on William H. Gough re: Aubrey Gun engraving
From 'Colt Engraving' by RL Wilson.pg 425
In an article published in a Utica NY newspaper 8/29/1954,,states in part that Wm Gough ....."took commissions in special engraving jobs from many parts of the country. There he worked on engravings for Aubrey Guns, then manufactured by Sears Roebuck Co.; for guns turned out by Norwich Arms Corp. and Hollenbeck guns, manufactured in Virgina."
>
The article is refering to a time when Gough was set up in Philadelpia as engraver for AH Fox. The Colt book lists his engraving time for Colt as approx 1910-1940. It also quotes a fellow engraver that worked for Gough that he did some work for Remington.
Kutter,
Thanks. It confirms a lot of what I had picked up from other sources.
I went back over the records...
1900 in Meriden:
William, 25
Carrie, 25
Irving J, 3
Leaphy C, 1
Charles H, 2 months
Dorris M, 11 step-sister
1920 in Philadelphia:
William H, 46
Carrie, 46
(Irving crossed out and over it written) Alfred, age 17
So, A. Gough is Alfred Gough, the son of William. In 1920 at the age of 17, he is living with his parents, William and Carrie on 16th Street in Philidelphia, and lists his occupation the same as dad, gun worker.
Quite a family of engravers...
Pete
I often find myself asking the "Why"? Why did Sears choose the sleepy town of Meriden with a population of only about 28,000?
Robert and I have been over this ground before. It takes several things. As I took another look at Meriden, it has those things in spades.
Certainly water and rail.
Parker Brothers was located there. But there were even better reasons, a state armory was located there.
In addition, a huge work force. Meriden was a silver center. It was home to Britannia Silver. One of the largest manufacturors of silverware in the country. It was this factory that was drawing the Polish immigrants we find in the census records.
Pete
Pete-
I think also, Sears may have wished to cash in on the "good will" associated with the Meriden name (earned by the Parker company).
Drew-
I think you may have a photo of a Parker rib and a photo of the rib of my Meriden shotgun. The similarity, I strongly suspect was not accidental on the part of the Meriden company.
Would you be able to post a side by side comparison?
Doug
A bit different style Doug
Parker
Meriden Fire Arms Co.
Drew-
A bit different, but very close, don't you think? My Meriden uses the same wave pattern on the rib, and by Parker noting the Meriden place of manufacture on the rib, gives the Meriden Firearms Company some resemblance to the Parker rib.
*Edit- the two Meridens' ribs are actually different, I think the rib on mine bears a closer resemblance to the Parker rib. The four wavy lines on both sides of the nomenclature on my Meriden are not as sharp/angular as the Meriden photo you have, and the nomenclature type on my Meriden a bit different as well. Actually the fact that there are two different types of ribs on the Meriden makes me wonder if the similar look to the Parker rib on my Meriden is intentional.
Good observation Doug
Lefever
Baker A grade
Colt
Remington
LC Smith Maker Baker
LC Smith Monogram
Drew-
Thank you kindly! Looks like you have the makings of another chapter..."Shotgun ribs."
Doug
You're killin' me brother
So, who do you think this company was trying to copy? Notice the little arrows.
From a previous thread:
From the 1906 Sears Catalog, pages 132-135
Guns specifically identified in the catalog as A.J. Aubrey
All guns are 12ga sidelocks with either 30" or 32" barrels
All seem to have POW stocks.
The 6fxx is the catalog number, followed by grade if provided, type of engraving if provided, type of barrels, price
6f18 A.S. line engraving laminated 13.85
6f20 A.T. line engraving armory steel 14.85
6f22 A.D. line engraving 2-blade 17.35
6f30 A.L.E. leaf engraving laminated 16.35
6f34 A.D.E. leaf engraving 2-blade 18.85
6f56 engraved 3-blade 29.75
6f58 engraved 4-blade 39.75
6f60 made to order 5-blade 49.75
6f62 made to order 6-blade 69.00
6f50 A.S.E. fine line scroll and game scene laminated 19.35
6f52 D.S.E. fine line scroll and game scene 2-blade 22.35
From the 1909 Catalog #118:
ALE - Laminated - $16.35
ADE – 2 blade Damascus - $18.85
ASE – Elaborately engraved Laminated - $19.95
DSE – Elaborately engraved 2 blade - $22.35
Very elaborately engraved very fine 4 blade damascus - $29.75
Very finest 4 blade - $39.75
Special 4 blade - $49.75
Made to order finest hand engraved 4 blade - $69.00
L.C. Smith Grade 2 Damascus - $56.00
Looks like they discontinued to 5- and 6- blade damascus.
The 1909 catalog lists an "Andrew Fyrberg & Sons of Hopkinton, Mass. Box Frame Hammerless Automatic Ejecting Double Barrel" with Laminated steel for $18.75 and 2-Blade Damascus for $21.75.
This is new.
From the 1908 catalog:
6k109 New England hammerless, steel 11.95
6k18 AJ Aubrey Hammerless, line engraving, crystal barrels / armory steel, 13.85
6k20 AJ Aubrey Hammerless, line engraving, Liege twist, 14.85
6k22 AJ Aubrey Hammerless, line engraving, 2-blade Liege Damascus, 17,35
6k30 AJ Aubrey Hammerless, elaborately engraved, A.L.E., Twist or Laminated, 16.35
6k34 AJ Aubrey Hammerless, elaborately engraved, A.D.E., 2-blade Damascus, 18.85
6k50 AJ Aubrey Hammerless, elaborately hand engraved, A.S.E., Twist, 19.35
6k52 AJ Aubrey Hammerless, elaborately hand engraved, D.S.E., 2-blade Damascus, 22.35
6k55 Aubrey Hammerless Special, heavy engraving, XX carbon steel, 26.75
6k56 Aubrey Hammerless Special, heavy engraving, 3-blade damascus, 30.75
6k58 Aubrey Damascus Special, heavy engraving, 3-blade damascus, 38.50
6k81 New England Wonder, hammer gun, no engraving, crystal steel barrels, 10.95
6k82 AJ Aubrey Double Barrel Hammer, no engraving, crystal steel barrels, 12.59
6k84 AJ Aubrey Double Barrel Hammer, no engraving, twist, 13.59
6k85 AJ Aubrey Double Barrel Hammer, no engraving, 2-blade damascus, 16.59
6k91 AJ Aubrey Special (hammer gun), moderately engraved, crystal steel barrels, 15.50
6k92 AJ Aubrey Special (hammer gun), moderately engraved, twist, 16.50
6k93 AJ Aubrey Special (hammer gun), moderately engraved, 2-blade damascus, 19.50
6k95 AJ Aubrey Finest (hammer gun), heavy engraving, crystal steel, 18.50
6k96 AJ Aubrey Finest (hammer gun), heavy engraving, 19.25
6k97 AJ Aubrey Finest (hammer gun), heavy engraving, 22.20
Pete
I took a look at the Fyrberg connection. A real gold mine of information.
From the 1900 U.S. Census:
Mass, Worcester, ward 7, enumeration district 1773, sheet 13
3 Tufts St
Andrew Fyrberg, born Feb 1863, age 43, 1877 immigrated from Sweden, Fire Arm Manufacturer
Annett, wife, age 43
Anton, son, age 22, toolmaker
Herman, daughter, age 20, Fitter - arms co
Anna, daughter, age 18, office girl
Lillian, daughter, age 10, at school
42 Mason St
White, Fred, born Jan 1867, born in Vermont, Stocker Arms Co
44 Mason St
Edmonds, Geo, born June 1867, born in Mass, Laborer Arms Co
Within a few blocks I found other employees, some from Sweden. One from England the blacksmith, another from Canada, but mainly people born in either Vermont or Mass. They listed their occupations as laborer, driller, plater, blacksmith, buffer, fitter, etc.
Pete
2 more Meriden guns;
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=83846747Hammerless, damascus barrels, moderate engraving. Meriden Firearms Co on the sidelocks. Meriden...1907 on the ribs.
The serial numbers are #60853 and #63308.
One is 12ga, the other 16ga.
Pete
Another Aubrey:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=84928118Hammerless, twist barrels, Meriden...1907 on the rib, New Aubrey, serial #48859. 12ga
Pete
Am I right that we are seeing, so far, the highest serial no. for an Aubrey marked hammerless at 48,859, and the lowest number for a Meriden Firearms Co. [no Aubrey] at 51,463 ?
This is what we've got so far Daryl
The A. J. Aubrey Hammerless
3457, 34956, 5512 (rib marked Pat’d applied for)
A.J. Aubrey Hammerless
13895
Berkshire Hammerless
18335
The New Aubrey Hammergun
111510 (steel)
15208 (twist)
The New Aubrey Hammerless
48859 (twist)
Meriden Fire Arms Co. Hammerless
51463, 53579, 62308, 63381, 71720, 60853
Meriden Fire Arms Co. Hammergun
28167, 20063
Drew, here are a few more from old auction catalogs. New numbers in {brackets}
The A. J. Aubrey Hammerless
3457, 34956, 5512 (rib marked Pat’d applied for)---{36543 [1907]}
A.J. Aubrey Hammerless
13895
Berkshire Hammerless
18335
The New Aubrey Hammergun
111510 (steel)
15208 (twist)
The New Aubrey Hammerless
48859 (twist)
Meriden Fire Arms Co. Hammerless
51463, 53579, 62308, 63381, 71720, 60853-------{ 77717,55302,50,418,52731[16ga steel]}
Meriden Fire Arms Co. Hammergun
28167, 20063--------{26226}
The A J Aubrey [single shot] 18494
Serial # Brand
3457 = A. J. Aubrey Hammerless
5512 = A. J. Aubrey Hammerless
13895 = A. J. Aubrey Hammerless
15208 = New Aubrey Hammergun
18335 = Berkshire Hammerless
18494 = A J Aubrey [single shot]
20063 = Meriden Fire Arms Co. Hammergun
26226 = Meriden Fire Arms Co. Hammergun
28167 = Meriden Fire Arms Co. Hammergun
34956 = A. J. Aubrey Hammerless
36543 = A. J. Aubrey Hammerless
48859 = New Aubrey Hammerless
50418 = Meriden Fire Arms Co. Hammerless
51463 = Meriden Fire Arms Co. Hammerless
52731 = Meriden Fire Arms Co. Hammerless
53579 = Meriden Fire Arms Co. Hammerless
55302 = Meriden Fire Arms Co. Hammerless
60853 = Meriden Fire Arms Co. Hammerless
62308 = Meriden Fire Arms Co. Hammerless
63381 = Meriden Fire Arms Co. Hammerless
71720 = Meriden Fire Arms Co. Hammerless
77717 = Meriden Fire Arms Co. Hammerless
111510 = New Aubrey Hammergun
Ok, when I take out any dups, there are 23 guns. Did I miss some?
So far there clear breaks between Hammer & Hammerless, Aubrey & Meriden. Still too small a dataset to generalize though. Is there some difference between 111510 & 15208?
Pete
Pete, I can't remember where the 115510 number came from, but it is possible a number was "added" into it incorrectly. In looking through some old auction catalogs, I found "bad" numbers twice. Then again, our sampling is small. I agree that there seems to be a trend here. Maybe the trend includes the Fyrberg guns in the 10,000-20,000 range.????
So much for the Fyrberg guess. Just found---------
A J Aubrey hammerless------17469
Meriden Fire Arms Co. haammerless -------74571, 67022,
They seem to be coming out of the woodwork, here is another one on G/B
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=85121009
Jim,
I emailed him asking for the serial number. Hope he replies.
Does that engraving look like Gough's other Meriden / Aubrey work?
More:
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8344034AJ Aubrey Hammerless, serial #1101. 32" barrels, steel(?).
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8243758AJ Aubrey Hammerless, #5385, D32, ribs "Pat Applied For"
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8276824AJ Aubrey Single Shot.... no serial number - gun sold...
Pete
I think the engraving on the "Diamond Grade" [first I have ever heard that term] is just like the other guns we see. Gough ? Probably so.
I think the engraving on the "Diamond Grade" [first I have ever heard that term] is just like the other guns we see. Gough ? Probably so.
Here is his response:
The serial number is 79076, while it does not say diamond anywhere, I do not believe Meriden marked its guns with the grade name.
I am referring to the ad which was pictured in the DGJ which pictures this gun (you may have this issue, if so, it is a good article) and calls it the "diamond grade". The ad pictured is an old Meridan Firearms ad. If Meriden Firearms calls it a Diamond grade, and the gun pictured is obviously same as mine, one can safely assume mine is a Diamond grade.
Pete
That is Wallis' neat gun which he had graciously shared with me for the PictureTrail album. He told me that the receiver is not stamped with a grade number.
Did Meriden Make a Single Barrel Trap?...MDC
How did it lock up? Under bits through bolts and did the lock up change over the years? My grandfather had an AJ Aubrey and I've talked to my Uncle about it but no one seems to know where it is. My Great Grandfather hunted with a double, they were all oppurtunity hunters, slugging one and shot in the other in case a deer or a rabbit showed up. Defintely only hunting to put food on the table and nothing else, no better design then a double for that, and my Grand father learned to hunt from him. I showed this thread to my Uncle who identified that my Grandfather definitely had a AJ Aubrey.
All the best
MD, yes they made a single barrel trap gun.
Great to see some attention on Meriden doubles. I can add a few more data points to the collection:
12 Ga 38419 AJ Aubrey K28 35 (28" Krupp ejectors)
12 Ga 41910 Meriden Firearms C30 (no grade - heavily engraved w/flying turnips)
12 Ga. 48517 New Aubrey T32 40 (32" twist)
16 Ga. 70163 The Meriden Firearms Co. S28 19 (my favorite)
12 Ga. 75395 The Meriden Firearms Co. S30 18
12 Ga. 322512 AJ Aubrey S30 18 (The serial number really is 6 digits)
All guns are hammerless and all but the K28 have extractors.
You guys sure make it hard on a guy to let go of a gun... I think I'll keep her and sell something else! I do believe a collection of graded Meriden and Baker guns will be my next endeavor in the collecting world. I'm looking for a good Paragon...
12 Ga 38419 AJ Aubrey K28 35 (28" Krupp ejectors)
12 Ga (no grade - heavily engraved w/flying turnips)
12 Ga. 48517 New Aubrey T32 40 (32" twist)
16 Ga. 70163 The Meriden Firearms Co. S28 19 (my favorite)
12 Ga. 75395 The Meriden Firearms Co. S30 18
12 Ga. 322512 AJ Aubrey S30 18 (The serial number really is 6 digits)
Thanks for posting this...
Does this gun have Steel,Damascus or Twist barrels?
41910 Meriden Firearms C30
Does this gun have any markings on the rib?
12 Ga. 322512 AJ Aubrey
I went through past posts on this board and picked up a few more. Thanks to grendel's 5, there are now 41 guns on the list.
Thanks,
Pete
Pete, the guns marked with a C30 or similar were "chain damascus"
Thanks Grendel (and BTW I was just in Norton-nice town, people, and country)
Could you please post ultra close up pics of the chain damascus pattern on your C30? Are there any marks just forward of the brl flats to indicate the Belgian maker?
And pics of the sideplate engraving on your 41910? Thanks!
Pete/Rev,
Unfortunately all that I have left of the C30 is the receiver. It's a parts gun. I believe that Daryl is correct on chain damascus. I have not puzzled out the image posting tricks, but here's a photo URL:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2267/2039372104_448c446093_b.jpg322512 is also a parts gun and the barrels are long gone. However I pulled the locks off tonight and found that both locks are the v-spring style and both are stamped 32251 (no final 2). I suspect that the extra digit in the receiver number was a factory slip-up. I'm pretty sure the correct serial should be 32251 as marked on the locks.
Here are some serials and sketchy notes on other Meriden/Aubrey doubles that have passed through my gun safe in recent years:
12 Ga. 3495 A.J. Aubrey damascus hammer gun
12 Ga. 12382 A.J. Aubrey steel hammer gun
12 Ga. 12412 A.J. Aubrey T30 hammerless, extractors
16 Ga. 78425 Meriden K32 Krupp hammerless, extractors
Thanks Grendel-I'll get that pic added to the PictureTrail album
And a remarkable (and likely intentional) resemblance to this 1910 GHE
Where DO those flying turnips breed back east?
Albeit late, I'm excited to finally be able to contribute SOMETHING (minor) to this board!
I have an A.J. Aubrey hammerless, 12 guage, Ser. #26941.
Marked on rib "DAMASCUS STEEL MFG. BY THE MERIDEN FIRE ARMS CO. MERIDEN, CT. U.S.A. PAT'D JY. 9, 1907"
"52" is stamped on right receiver flat.
"D32" is stamped on left receiver flat.
31.375" bbls, choked atleast full and full (only had a dime)
Sorry so late, I hope somebody is still interested in the info.
Jeff L.
Thanks Jeff, but how many pages did you have to go through to find this thread?!
Jeff L.:
With the D32 on the watertable, are you sure of the tube lengths? If I recall correctly, on the ones I have the number on the left watertable is the same as the tube length.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
It has been suggested that the plant was sold to New England Westinghouse because they had just received a contract to produce Mosen Nagant rifles and bayonets for Russia. Some guns were produced in another facility on Center Street in Meriden until 1918 when Sears announced that the Meriden Fire Arms Company would discontinue the manufacture of sporting guns.
The factory on Colony Street was demolished just a few years ago to make room for a modern factory building. That was the site were the Russian rifles were made. I had not realized they also were located on Center Street.
Living in the Meriden area, I've met several people whose family worked for either Parker or Meriden. To my knowledge, Crescent was always in Norwich, not Meriden.
An old timer has told about his father laughing about the Russian inspectors at the factory. They had several racks of newly completed rifles & would get the the inspectors busy on one rack. Meanwhile, they would roll the rack, that had just been inspected, around the corner, out of sight, and put it back in line to be inspected again. The poor guys were inspecting the same rifles over & over, while uninspected ones got packed for shipment!
To make things worse, the firing pins got shipped separately from the rifles to a different port. All so that the rifles wouldn't fall into "the wrong hands."
What do you think the chances were that the rifles ever got firing pins installed? Just about zero!
Regards, Ron
Raimey,
I'm afraid so, and I have to admit I was a bit disappointed because it seems like a wierd length. Taking the decimal to the thousandths is overstating things a bit... They measured right around 31 3/8" on a yardstick today. (I just did not like the looks of the fraction after I typed it the first time, so I did the math myself and came up with .375.)
revdocdrew,
I knew this thread was back there somewhere (I've lurked for quite a while trying to learn), and fortunately I thought to run a search for it before wading back page by page.
I'm sorry for not chipping in sooner, but it was until today I could get the gun back in my hands, for it currently resides at Pop's house.
I need to say THANKS to all of you. The information and insight in this Forum is astounding. You gentlemen are smart and generous. Heck, I'm a little nervous simply typing words y'all might read!
Jeff L.:
What type Damascus are the tubes? Nothing wrong with the fraction or decimal, but are you sure the chokes are tight and not open? Anything is possible like 31 3/8", but can you determine if the tubes have been cut or not?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Jeff L.
Thanks for adding another one to the list. It is really appreciated. Just to confirm the serial number is 26,941 and NOT 29,641? The reason I ask, from the short list so far, 26,941 would be in the middle of some Meriden Hammerguns. But that is why the list is being compiled.
Pete
RJM,
Any other stories you have about either Meriden or Parker would be appreciated. Please do not hesitate to share them here.
Pete
Barrels probably look something like this; large scroll 2 Iron Crolle
Jeff: are there any markings/letters on the brls just forward of the flats?
PeteM:
I have 3 or 4 S30 & S32 Meridens. What block are serial number are you looking for?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
revdocdrew:
With that pic, do you think that the makers of Damascus influenced the psychedelic movement of the 1960's?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey: possibly you and jOe could stare intently at this image in a darkened room for 2-3 hours then let me know what you think about the relationship between Arabesque, Belgian damascus, and Jimmy Hendrix
revdocdrew:
If I am not mistaken, somewhere near 4th grade I had that exam with few others where you try to put a square peg in a round hole and then take the ink blot test. To top it off, in Art History in undergrad, had to identify 300 consecutive photos each displayed for about 30 seconds on a projector for the final exam.
I'm not a fan of wild parsely or hemp, so I might not be a candidate.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey,
I don't know enough to answer your question directly, but the damascus looks just like the most recent photo posted by revdocdrew (large scroll 2 Iron Crolle, Thanks Rev!). I just do not have a proper guage, but we screwed around with the dime on each bbl for a minute or so, and it would not pass through, nor would it enter far enough to wedge itself. There are no obvious file or saw marks on the muzzles, so they don't obviously look cut.
Pete, I just re-confirmed the serial number as 26941.
revdocdrew, there is a D over a C on each bbl just forward of the flats. They're not deep, it looks as if they were almost buffed out in the finishing.
Thanks to all,
Jeff
Jeff L.:
If it's not too late, you should make your folks a wish list from Galazan's site for the brass chamber gauge and chokes and have a late useable Christmas gift.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Jeff: would it be possible to post ultra close-up pics of those brl marks? 'D' could be Jean Delcour-Dupont, a Nessonvaux brl maker,but that mark is usually a 'Crown over D'. 'C' could be Lucien Clement, but that mark has been found on other Sears guns as 'CC'.
or send the pics by jpg attachment to revdoc2@cox.net and thanks!
This faint 'fused CL' on the left brl is on an A.J. Aubrey, probably Lucien Clement also
With that pic, do you think that the makers of Damascus influenced the psychedelic movement of the 1960's?
This time you may actually be on to something...I read years ago ...When a meteor shower in Northern Canada (c1960) triggered an ergot blight on the winter rye/wheat crops, the Canadian government bailed out the Farmers that were hit hardest. Shortly afterwards, a MIT researcher was plotting where and when the Earth's rotation was positioned as it traveled through the very same asteroid field in decades and centuries past, when people were forced to eat the crops anyway. This led new understandings of the Salem witch trials. Now I hear researchers have linked ergot poisoning to the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition as well. Many historians scoffed at the concept until autopsies of medieval corpses showed the theory to be correct in a few cases.
Then only about 4 years ago, I also read that a naturally occurring hallucinogenic compound in the gaseous state (not known to chemists) was discovered leaking from cracks in the rock floor of the dungeon that held the Oracle(s) of Delphi for over 1000 years.
We are just beginning to understand the role of ergot poisoning and human history...if it turns out that mingled or watered steel is someday connected, I won't be suprised, but I will remember that Raimey suggested it first
PS ...ergot mold is where LSD was first derived from
revdocdrew,
It may take a day or two, but I'll try the pics. Any quick suggestions on taking a decent closeup? I'm not much of a photographer, but our camera is decent enough (Canon digital Rebel), and I can turn the knob to the "closeup" setting. If there aren't any obvious suggestions, I can certainly keep snapping until I get a legible shot.
Raimey,
Thanks for a great suggestion! It doesn't look like anybody is going to give me that 20 ga. Philly SW w/ 26" bbls choked IC/M that I've been asking for (especially my wife!), so a bore guage might be just the item someone will bite off on!
Thanks!
Jeff
Raimey, good on the photos. Set the camera on closeup [macro] which is sometimes denoted as a flower on the camera setting dial. Then use a medium or dark background material to lay the gun on. Do not use a flash or direct sunlight. Indirect sunlight like a north window works well, or just take the pictures in the shade. Your camera should be able to do the rest. Some cameras let you push the shutter button half way down before you take the picture. This lets the camera adjust itself to the scene and take sharp images.
Many thanks to Jeff for his excellent pic of the 'CD' or 'DC' on the brls of his A.J. Aubrey. Looks like I've got some Holiday Homework to do, because that doesn't fit any member of the
Syndicat des Fabricants de Canons de Fusil de la Vesdre or known gunmaker
What an idiot
Canons Delcour was the barrel making branch of
Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont of Nessonvaux!! The usual mark is a Crown over D and has been found on damascus Smith guns.
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20d/a%20delcour%20dupont%20gb.htm They could certainly have supplied the 4-, 5-, and 6- blade damascus on the higher grade Aubrey and Meriden guns.
Drew,
Nice catch!!
I missed this one. I updated my Belgian sheet with it as well.
Some more information Jean-Baptiste from "Le Qui est Qui";
Jean was the father of Lucien Delcour.
He was a manager for Pieper & Cie then opened his own shop and specialized in Damascus barrels.
1910 received a patent for making sxs shotgun barrels
1921 registered the trade name of "Canons Delcour"
The Delcour company was in business all the way through 1968.
With his connections to Pieper and the fact the Sears catalog shows Diana ( a Pieper trade mark) grade guns, I would not be surprised if Delcour was a major supplier for Meriden. You are correct, he would have had the resource in Nessonvaux to supply any type of barrel Meriden/Aubrey could want.
Pete
Isn't it amazing how one little clue can (possibly) answer some pretty big questions?! Nice Christmas present thanks to Jeff
Hopefully we'll find some more 'CD' marks as guys start looking.
Yet another one:
http://www.rockislandauction.com/view_item.aspx?aid=1010&iid=208279The highest serial number recorded todate, 327,352.
Pete
I recently kicked up a chunk of iron behind one of our outbuildings. Upon a double take I realized that it was the remnants of a gun. I have cleaned a majority of the rust to reveal 'The A. J. AUBREY'. There is also what appears to be a serial number, but it is not readable enough to tell exactly what that might be. Any suggestions on how I might clean this enough to get the number to stand out?
Does anyone have suggestions on how to track down original ownership if I can discern the serial numbers?
This was found on my family ranch (est. 1908) and no living relatives recall a gun being discarded in this area, but they remember that the pioneering family that sold the ranch to great grandpa had a building in that area. I am not interested necessarily in values, but wondering more towards who purchased it, when it was purchased, etc..
Wally Harbaugh
Jordan, MT
It might be good to boil it in water. Might lift enough of the rust and corrosion to make out the number.
If this does not work, try using Kroil. It most probably will do it.
I agree that it would be neat to find the owner but do not think this is possible thru the serial number.
I'm sorry Jordan, but I'm not aware of any records that remain from the Meriden Fire Arms Co. 1905-1918. The gun was very likely ordered from a Sears Roebuck & Co. catalog.
Post deleted by revdocdrew
There is a method using acid, but it is not worth the trouble. I would follow John Mann's suggestion.
Pete
Thanks for your responses. A local recommended PB Blaster and a wire brush. Worked well enough to get 51451. That and 'THE A. J. AUBREY' is the only thing I can see on this. Thanks again.
Thanks for your responses. A local recommended PB Blaster and a wire brush. Worked well enough to get 51451. That and 'THE A. J. AUBREY' is the only thing I can see on this. Thanks again.
2 quick questions. I assume this is a hammerless gun, correct? If is has barrels, are they steel or damascus?
Thanks,
Pete
I am new here and have just spent a hour or so wading thru this thread.I am really impressed with the efforts put out to share knowledge on these shotguns.
I stumbled on this thread as I was looking for information on an AJ Aubrey I just purchased but have not recieved yet.Mine appears to be a mid-grade with 2 blade Damascus barrels.I will post detailed pictures and serial #'s and proofs if you would like once I receive it.
johnr
A very nice looking example! Congratulations. Yes, please any more information and pictures will be helpful. At the very least the serial number. If you find any markings on the bottom of the barrels, please take a picture.
Pete
Neat John! The grade should be stamped on the watertable, along with 'D' and the brl length. Please do post ultra close up pics and I'll add them to the PictureTrail album and thanks
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=17474742
Just bought a Hammered A.J. Aubrey off Gunbroker, S/N 12421 with 32" steel barrels. Have not received it yet.
Gunbroker Auction S/N 12421 When I receive it, I will post more info. Also picked up an Aubrey Hammerless needing a stock. It should be here soon and when I get the info, I'll post it as well. GREAT THREAD!!
Another Aubrey to add to your list. Is a Hammerless Sidelock model, labeled The A.J. Aubrey, S/N 34035, S30 (Steel 30" barrels). Needs Buttstock and refinishing. Otherwise, looks pretty sound with a few mild pits in the bores.
Thanks for the new one. I have added it to the listing.
http://damascus-barrels.com/Aubrey.htmlPete
I had a chance this evening to look the Hammerless Aubrey over and the bores clean up excellent. Surprise is no pitting at all. Lockup is good with just a little slop. I imagine a slight shim may be in order. Need a replacement buttstock and a trigger guard and this old gal will be back in the field. Most of the casehardening is gone, but I'm seriously considering leaving the receiver in white. Might even just polish it out. I'll try and get pictures and post here soon. If anyone knows where I can secure a replacement stock or trigger guard, please let me know as soon as possible. Thanks.
You're dead on Pete in my opinion, LC Smith is lucky the Meriden Firearms Company didn't or couldn't develop a better locking bolt then they had!! Some of those pics of their engraving and wood they put on their guns is as good or better then the LC Smith!!!
We really are looking at the American sxs as it peaked. The Meriden / Aubrey / Meriden certainly had the potential to become a classic. It was a turbulent time. It is surprising that any of the classic makers survived it. Some developed a following. Others could never loose their "hardware gun" images.
In just about 1 year, we have jointly been able to document nearly 90 guns. It has brought us closer to understanding the production volumes of the Aubrey guns. It now is looking to be roughly 10,000 Aubrey guns with an unknown number of Meriden guns so far. It is also the 1st effort that I am aware of to be done as a group online effort.
I look forward to what we will learn in the coming year.
Pete
I just picked up a "New Aubrey" today, ser# 38733 on barrels and receiver. I bought it off the estate of a friend. It's a 16 Ga with 27" Damascus barrels choked mod and full (measured constriction of approx. .020" and .030"; don't see any choke markings) 2.5" chambers and short forcing cones. Lots of little dings and scratches, but clean bores and otherwise amazingly good condition. Pretty wood too. Didn't think it had Damascus barrels at first since they're blued (!?) I'll most likely have the barrels refinished. I'd like to refinish the stock too so I can get rid of the oil staining and buff out some of the scratches, but would that ruin the value? Also, would I diminish it's value by lengthening the chambers and forcing cones? What about opening the chokes? I'd like to use it for skeet, but I could just get 28 Ga tubes for it.
I'll try to get some pics up.
I assume it is hammerless? If it is, then it was made in 1910. If it is a hammer gun, then it was made in 1913. The latest issue of the Double Gun Journal has an article about these guns.
If you take the barrels off, you should see more markings. Let me know what they are. The guns left the factory Full & Full for the most part.
Prices on these guns run from a couple of hundred to well over $1,000 depending on model and condition. There are a few 20ga out there that never seem to surface. Also some special order guns.
Pete
